3M Super 77 Spray Adhesive Question
Jim
I have a question for the expert kite builders among us. I am thinking
of using 3M Super 77 Spray Adhesive in conjunction with a zig-zag stitch
in the fabrication of the sail for a kite I am building. I have in mind
using a 1.0 cm seam allowance, gluing and then sewing. I think this
would provide an adequate seam bond. Does anyone have any advice that
might be helpful? It is for a Mirage II which will be flyng in the
middle wind ranges. Thanks for reading this.
Jim
Steve Ferrel
planning to make your seam. Double folding? Single folding? Butt
end-to-end with ripstop tape over and under? Single overlap? I can
recommend different techniques/tips for each choice.
~S!
--
K I T E S T U D I O
make your dreams fly...
http://www.kitebuilder.com
Please support the AKA by joining now...
http://www.aka.kite.org/
"Jim" <or...@total.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.14a72c8aa7b943f989685@news...
redou...@my-deja.com
Jim - This is not advice, rather a question. How do you plan to spray
the adhesive 1 cm. wide along the edge of your fabric? I'd love to know
since my experience with the spray is that it's virtually
uncontrollable and goes all over the place. My only success with it has
been to spray the back of small pieces I wish to add to a sail (then
sew) and I've done this by laying the small pieces on the reverse side
of a throw rug. The overspray then helps to keep the throw rug from
moving around on the rug underneath. Neat huh? LOL
Art
>
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Tom Arbster
your idea sounds good, BUT I believe trying to control the spray to a
1.0 cm area will be hard to do. unless you use a paint brush or a
mask on the area you do not wish to glue.
My suggestion would be use "GLUE STICK" that you find in school
supplys in a convience store, you have control over where you put it
and it hold relavitly well. just apply it and stick the two pieces
together and wait a few min. and run it thru your machine
try both methods on some scrap material, and you will see what I mean
Good Luck and Happy Hollidays
tom A>
check out KINETIC KITES web site for some of the
Inventory Reduction Sales items, there may be somthing
you would really like to have :-)
www.telepath.com/kiteman
or...@total.net
Thanks for the interest in this thread guys. Yup, I know how the nozzle
sprays the glue - and it may be an "off-the-wall" idea, but I thought I
would pre-position the panels just as they will be, once they are bonded
(they'll be held in position to the table top with masking tape). Then I
was going to bend the one seam edge out of the way and mask the surface
to be sprayed (much like you mask when spray painting a car etc.) Then
once the glue was sprayed on, I thought it wouldn't be too hard to
carefully replace the one seam over the other. Following this, I plan to
stitch the glued seam with a zig-zag stitch.
I have the 3M double sided tape also, but it seems to me that the spray
stuff gives a stronger bond. But, I am open to ideas and suggestions.
Steve - this would probably called "single overlap". I didn't want to
get too exotic with the seam.
Jim
Andrew Beattie
> Jim - This is not advice, rather a question. How do you plan to spray
> the adhesive 1 cm. wide along the edge of your fabric?
Good question.
Here's a tip I picked up from a pro...
If you're going to make 10 kites, take 10 identical panels and:
- Lay the first one on some scrap to pick up overspray
- Lay the next one on top, but off by 1cm
- Stagger the following 8
- Place the stencil on top, again staggered
If I've explained that properly, then you can now spray a 1cm
edge on all 10 panels.
--
Andrew Beattie
The LAZIEST way to find kite pages --> http://www.kitez.com/search.html
My own stuff (Shona, Chevron, Veronica) ----> http://www.tug.com/
Resources for rec.kites --------------------> http://www.kites.tug.com/
Friendly, flexible host for your net stuff -> http://www.ourshack.com/
Jim
bill_p...@my-deja.com
> - Place the stencil on top, again staggered
> If I've explained that properly, then you can now spray a 1cm
> edge on all 10 panels.
>
> --
> Andrew Beattie
Or, perhaps, two peices of newspaper?
Bill May the wind always BE at your back!!
redou...@my-deja.com
"Steve Ferrel" <st...@kitebuilder.com> wrote:
> I'm no expert, <snip>
---------------------------------
Steve - Since when you ain't no expert - coulda' fooled me!! LOL
Art
Stanley Swanson
<or...@total.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.14a8333b3...@news.total.net...
> In article <MPG.14a72c8aa7b943f989685@news>, or...@total.net says...
> > Season's Greetings to all.
> >
> > I have a question for the expert kite builders among us. I am thinking
> > of using 3M Super 77 Spray Adhesive in conjunction with a zig-zag stitch
> > in the fabrication of the sail for a kite I am building
snip
> I have the 3M double sided tape also, but it seems to me that the spray
> stuff gives a stronger bond. But, I am open to ideas and suggestions.
> Steve - this would probably called "single overlap". I didn't want to
> get too exotic with the seam.
>
> Jim
Jim,
Spray adhesives are miserable to work with. overspray is hard to avoid,
even with decent masking. All that mist has to land somewhere. get it on
your work table and you'll invent some new cuss words. I think the 3M 77
might require xylene to clean up, which is great for huffing, but hell on
sailcloth finishes (it dissolves them). If my can is any indication, it
doesn't come out in a fine mist, so the application is heavy, and would be
highly prone to gumming up your machine.
If the tape you refer to is one of the VHB adhesives (actually not a tape,
since there is no carrier), I doubt if the bond you got with 77 would be as
strong as VHB . Most folks seem to use 9460, a 3-mil adhesive if memory
serves, but I prefer the 9485, a 5-mil adhesive. In our tests with a seam
bonded with this and not sewn, the fabric ripped before the adhesive let go.
Why would you need it any stronger? The purpose of sewing the seam is to
prevent it from peeling or creeping, not to add strength. All the necessary
strength comes from the adhesive. I have found comparable adhesives from
other sources at a fraction of the cost for the 3M stuff. of course I
bought it 144x 60 yards at a time.
Go with the "tape".
Stan Swanson, Condor Kite Co. but not "com"
Carl D. Crowell
the following - Make sure any adhesive that you use dries and fixes.
If the product remains tacky, over time it will collect dust, dirt
sand, etc.
You may fill all your seams with a very strong adhesive, but if it
doesn't fix, it will continue to collect dirt.
The 3M product never stops collecting dirt.
I used to see a lot of appliqué work that used the 3M product and
after a day at the beach, you could really tell. (Some of that stuff
was on the end of one of my kite lines ;)
-carl
On Wed, 20 Dec 2000 06:35:11 GMT, "Stanley Swanson"
<mhk...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>Go with the "tape".
>
>Stan Swanson, Condor Kite Co. but not "com"
_ _ _
Carl D. Crowell, Patent Attorney
www.nw-law.com
1313 Mill St SE #203
P.O. Box 923
Salem, OR 97308-0923
Tel: 503-581-1240 Fax: 503-581-1248
michael m. moss
different spray on adhesives sold in fabric or sewing stores meant to be
used for holding fabric to stabilizer in a hoop for machine
embroidery??? Reading the cans at the store I work at kinda makes them
sound pretty good.... one kind comes off with water, another claims to
go away by itself in a "couple days"
I have been using 3m spray mount and have yet to find a good solvent for
it (I bought Goo-Gone, but have not tried it yet tho)
Just kinda wondering..
That 3m stuff does stay tacky enough to give problems with material
sticking to the table while sewing (I use a clear Lexan table cut around
the machine), so I'm sure it Will attract dust and dirt in the appliqué
;-(
anyway, just wondering.....
BTW, I don't feel confident enough with my iron/ hand skills for "hot
tacking"...
--
Mikey Luvs Ya!!
http://www.astound.net/kyakmike/
Stan Swanson
michael m. moss <kyak...@astound.net> wrote in message
news:3A3FC638...@astound.net...
> I have been using 3m spray mount and have yet to find a good solvent for
> it (I bought Goo-Gone, but have not tried it yet tho)
>
I have three solvents in my shop, rubber cement thinner, acetone, and
xylene. rubber cement thinner works pretty well on most adhesives and is
the best thing I've found for oil stains. I always try it first. Acetone
(also used as nailpolish remover) is the next one to try. Xylene will
desolve anything, even the fabric coating. it's awful stuff to breath
(known carcinogen and all that), and I avoid using it.
for SprayMount, try the rubber cement thinner. it may take a few generous
applications.
Stan (>
Jim
your point is enough to decide me against using the 3M Super 77 for this.
Happy Christmas to you and yours.
Jim
Jim
Good points you raise here below. And between what you have said, and
Carl's remarks, I think I might go back to Plan A and use the double-
sided tape. Yes, I have used 9460, but would like to give the 9485 a
try. Is it a hard-to-find item?
Without running the risk of biassed endorsements, could you recommend a
source or two for affordable adhesives? What are the names of the
comparable adhesives to which you refer?
I amsurprised to hear that the sewing is more to prevent peeling and
creeping. Good information indeed. Thanks Stan. Season's greetings.
Stan Swanson
Jim <or...@total.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.14ab4835bb085132989688@news...
> Hi Stan,
>
Yes, I have used 9460, but would like to give the 9485 a
> try. Is it a hard-to-find item?
Probably. I used to get it from a sailcloth distributor in 3/8" width, but
they stopped carrying it in less than 1/2". I prefer it to the 9460 because
you can work faster. You don't need to apply heat or rub it down, just peal
and stick. Great initial tack, and the bond gets stronger with age. only
difference between the two is the thickness of the adhesive.
>
> Without running the risk of biassed endorsements, could you recommend a
> source or two for affordable adhesives? What are the names of the
> comparable adhesives to which you refer?
Biased? Me?
Your biggest problem is minimums. Most adhesives are sold by
converters/distributors, who take a 60 inch wide "log" and slit it to spec.
they don't usually like to do less than a whole log, but you might find one
willing to. Avery has a line of adhesives called UHB. I found one of
there's that seemed identical to VHB from 3M, the number 1180 sticks in my
brain but I can't say for sure. I found another adhesive through a local
tape distributor that had good properties, comparable to 9485, and cost less
than half as much. However, I was buying 144 rolls at a time. Maybe Steve
Ferrell will start carrying it as an alternative to 3M if you ask real nice.
buying from 3M is kinda like buying car parts from Mercedes. you're going
to pay a premium for the name.
Stan
Jim
run with the 3M 9485. Found a local supplier who's pretty fairly priced.
Happy holidays to you and yours.
Jim in Winterpeg
.................
In article <MPG.14a72c8aa7b943f989685@news>, or...@total.net says...
redou...@my-deja.com
or...@total.net (Jim) wrote:
> Thanks for all the great advice and information guys. I think I'm
gonna
> run with the 3M 9485. Found a local supplier who's pretty fairly
priced.
Jim - If you use the 'seamstick' tape for your seams, make sure you
lubricate your needle or the adhesive will gum up on the needle and
screw up your stitches. I use a product called 'Sewer's Aid'- it's a
silicone oil in a handy squeeze bottle found in most sewing supply
stores. An occasional drop on the needle will save many headaches. Some
folks say they lubricate the thread on the spool and bobbin - I haven't
tried this approach. This product does not stain the fabric - at least
in my experience.
Happy Holidays,
Jim Williams
That's good advice I think. I was wondering about the possibility of
needle gum-up. I have heard that gentle heat applied to the seams will
increase the strength of the 3m 9460 bond, and was thinking I would do
the hairdryer & roller stuff after I do the stitching, lest I make the
gumming problem worse (any ideas on this?). I will search out some of
this stuff you recommend.
I bought a sewing machine (sight unseen from a fellow in Fresno) and it
arrived two days ago. It's a Pfaff 1222E (1977 vintage). Belonged to an
elderly lady who recently passed away. Even had the original invoice,
and the recent tune-up invoice. Mint shape! That's sure made my
Christmas a happy one.
Anyway, outta here....
Happy Christmas Art
Stanley Swanson
adhesive vs. 2 mil for the 9460PC. see
http://www.3m.com/bonding/pdf/VHBProdSummary.pdf for more details.
Stan
Stanley Swanson <mhk...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:zqY%5.1269