What's this trick called?
David Lindgren
What would you call this variation of a toe loop?
First let me paste in the definition of a toe loop so that I can then
expand on it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Toe loop - stolen from Peter Peter's site
This is quite simply an axel that starts with a driving tip
stab. Starting with a side slide, say from left to right, you would
keep pressure on the right hand and a little more slack on the
left. Increase the pressure on the right until the kite starts turning
right into the ground. You should time it such that the right tip is
about to stab the ground and then slack and pop the left wing in an
exaggerated axel move. The right wing tip should drive into the ground
and then kite should spring back up into an axel.
Executed well, the kite will spring high into the air with a
resounding "thonk". If you're not so lucky, the kite might stay on the
ground with a dissapointing "crack". The name for this move, like the
axel, comes from ice skating. The toe loop in ice skating is like the
axel but starts with the skater driving the serrated toe of one skate
into the ice to get rotational momentum. The similarities with the
kite trick suggested the name was appropriate.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Okay, so there's your basic toe loop.
Now lets say you are sliding in from right to left (cos that's side I
favour). Increase the pressure on the left hand but where the toe
loop initiates the pop with the kite fairly horizontal (ie. trick line
not far off parallel with the ground) you let the kite turn to the
left quite a bit more before initiating the toe-loop pop. What this
does, apart from giving a slightly less satisfying "thonk" as tip hits
ground, is make the kite do more of a coin toss type movement as it
flips round in the air before bouncing quite hard off the other
wingtip and jumping back into the air.
If I could get it to then bounce off the original (left) wingtip again
before flying off, I guess it could be called a triple jump, but I
have not tried to make it do that yet.
So anyhow, does this toe-loop variation have a name?
Dave
Andy Wardley
David Lindgren <da...@thelonious.new.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
>What would you call this variation of a toe loop?
>
>First let me paste in the definition of a toe loop so that I can then
>expand on it.
>
>
>Okay, so there's your basic toe loop.
>
>Now lets say you are sliding in from right to left (cos that's side I
>favour). Increase the pressure on the left hand but where the toe
>loop initiates the pop with the kite fairly horizontal (ie. trick line
>not far off parallel with the ground) you let the kite turn to the
>left quite a bit more before initiating the toe-loop pop.
Generally speaking, the kite turns quite a bit for most Toe Loops. If you
keep the kite too horizontal then you thonk the kite into the ground rather
than that Coin Toss move which you're trying to get.
>What this
>does, apart from giving a slightly less satisfying "thonk" as tip hits
>ground, is make the kite do more of a coin toss type movement
That's how it should be.
>as it
>flips round in the air before bouncing quite hard off the other
>wingtip and jumping back into the air.
Off the *OTHER* wingtip. Hmmm.... So the left tip thonks, the kite
Coin Tosses over to the left but then you get another Toe Loop off the
*right* wing-tip. And the kite continues to go to the left (anti-clockwise)?
So that sounds like a Toe Loop to an Ally, except that you Toe Loop on the
Ally as well? Weird!
Normally, I would Toe Loop the kite through 360 degrees and then come
down for another Toe Loop on the *same* wingtip. This is like what you
describe below, but I don't think I've ever got it to Toe Loop off the
opposite wingtip. Will have to try it.
A
--
Andy Wardley <a...@kfs.org> http://www.kfs.org/~abw
Signature lost in transit. We apologise for any inconvenience caused.
David Lindgren
In article <Eoy6x...@cre.canon.co.uk>,
Andy Wardley <a...@cre.canon.co.uk> wrote:
>David Lindgren <da...@thelonious.new.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
>>What would you call this variation of a toe loop?
>
>
>Off the *OTHER* wingtip. Hmmm.... So the left tip thonks, the kite
>Coin Tosses over to the left but then you get another Toe Loop off the
>*right* wing-tip. And the kite continues to go to the left (anti-clockwise)?
That is indeed correct. According to pp's site (and my previous
understanding) a coin toss leaves the kite standing on the opposite
wingtip to the one it started on. Thus, if the left tip thonks, a
coin toss should leave the kite on the right wingtip... but if you do
not let the kite fully land, but pop the right line just before the
tip lands, you get a further thonk that does not really give you a
full toe-loop but gives you a bit more rotation. I guess the initial
toe-loop is not quite a full toe loop and the coin toss motion is not
really a full coin toss because sometimes the kite does not hit the
second thonk with the face fully towards you.
>
>So that sounds like a Toe Loop to an Ally, except that you Toe Loop on the
>Ally as well? Weird!
>
>Normally, I would Toe Loop the kite through 360 degrees and then come
>down for another Toe Loop on the *same* wingtip. This is like what you
>describe below, but I don't think I've ever got it to Toe Loop off the
>opposite wingtip. Will have to try it.
I think the point is that you do not get a full 360 from the first
thonk and it sort of take two thonks to get all the rotation you might
want. I am starting to forget exactly what it looks like since I have
not done it since last Sunday, but I will try and concentrate more on
exactly what rotations come where, the next time I go out flying.
Dave
Andy Wardley
David Lindgren <da...@thelonious.new.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
>full toe-loop but gives you a bit more rotation. I guess the initial
>toe-loop is not quite a full toe loop and the coin toss motion is not
>really a full coin toss because sometimes the kite does not hit the
>second thonk with the face fully towards you.
Okey Doke, now I see what you mean. It sounds like you're doing a Toe
Loop, and then following it with another pop with the same hand as if
you were doing a Multiple Axel. In this case, rather than getting 2
clean Axels, the first is the Toe Loop which gives you half a turn and
then the second pop gives you the second half which stops when you come
down onto the tip.
>I think the point is that you do not get a full 360 from the first
>thonk and it sort of take two thonks to get all the rotation you might
>want.
Yep. Got it. Try pre-empting that second pop a little. That is, do it
a fraction earlier than you normally do. That second motion will
(hopefully) do a flat and clean second Axel mere inches of the ground.
There is a Multiple Toe Loop thing that I do but it uses a different
technique. After the first Toe Loop (popping the right hand, for example),
pull the opposite line (left) to turn the kite down to line it up for the
next one. You have to do very *LARGE* Toe Loop pops to get the kite
rotating past the 180 degrees that you normally do for Coin Toss like
Toe Loops.
I haven't got names for these kind of variations because I tend to shy
away from having lots of different names for slight variations of the
same trick, but feel free to suggest something.
David Lindgren
In article <Eoz7v...@cre.canon.co.uk>,
Andy Wardley <a...@cre.canon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Okey Doke, now I see what you mean. It sounds like you're doing a Toe
>Loop, and then following it with another pop with the same hand as if
>you were doing a Multiple Axel.
No. You do the second pop with the /other/ hand - this is what drives
the other tip into the ground (which is what I want).
> In this case, rather than getting 2
>clean Axels, the first is the Toe Loop which gives you half a turn and
>then the second pop gives you the second half which stops when you come
>down onto the tip.
<Reaches for small paper cut out kite shape that Dave keeps by his
computer for simulation purposes>
This first pop gives you a little more than a half turn and thonks the
first wingtip. The second pop with the other hand drives the second
tip into the ground and the kites springs up to complete the rotation.
>
>>I think the point is that you do not get a full 360 from the first
>>thonk and it sort of take two thonks to get all the rotation you might
>>want.
>
>Yep. Got it. Try pre-empting that second pop a little. That is, do it
>a fraction earlier than you normally do. That second motion will
>(hopefully) do a flat and clean second Axel mere inches of the ground.
With the help of my trusty paper kite shape, I can picture exactly
what you mean here. Now, if I could do that after the second wingtip
thonk...
Dave
Chris Brent
David Lindgren wrote:
>
> In article <Eoz7v...@cre.canon.co.uk>,
> Andy Wardley <a...@cre.canon.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >Okey Doke, now I see what you mean. It sounds like you're doing a Toe
> >Loop, and then following it with another pop with the same hand as if
> >you were doing a Multiple Axel.
>
> No. You do the second pop with the /other/ hand - this is what drives
> the other tip into the ground (which is what I want).
Okay I'm confused. Are all the rotations in the same direction? It
almost sounds like your doing a toe loop into cascade... ?
>
> <Reaches for small paper cut out kite shape that Dave keeps by his
> computer for simulation purposes>
Good idea... hand me those siccors.
Chris
David Lindgren
In article <34F5FDD5...@orix.com.au>,
Chris Brent <cbr...@orix.com.au> wrote:
>
>Okay I'm confused. Are all the rotations in the same direction? It
>almost sounds like your doing a toe loop into cascade... ?
>
All the rotations are in the same direction although I am now starting
to get confused about it myself now. No more questions until I can go
and try the bloody thing again. (Although I am told that this w/e
will be wet)
>> <Reaches for small paper cut out kite shape that Dave keeps by his
>> computer for simulation purposes>
>
>Good idea... hand me those siccors.
It really is a fantastic tool for visualisation of complicated or
badly explained ;-) tricks. Make sure that you put creases in the
paper where the spine would be and in lines from tip to where the
standoffs would be. This gives the SimKite(TM) a realistic and more
3D shape. And it means you can't forget which is the front and which
is the back.
Dave
Andy Wardley
David Lindgren <da...@thelonious.new.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
>It really is a fantastic tool for visualisation of complicated or
>badly explained ;-) tricks. Make sure that you put creases in the
>paper where the spine would be and in lines from tip to where the
>standoffs would be. This gives the SimKite(TM) a realistic and more
>3D shape. And it means you can't forget which is the front and which
>is the back.
A couple of years ago I started working on a computer generated kite
that used a ray-traced model to generate animations. The idea was to
generate a "scripting language" that defined how the kite moved and
then leave the machine running overnight to generate the interim
frames and slurp it all together.
Never got past the proof-of-concept stage, unfortunately. I have
since thought it would be nice to run a VR simulator with 2 Data
Gloves (that track the position of your hands) and use that to
generate a moving kite image.
Perfect wind, indoors or out, any time of day or night. And think of
the great videos you could make. Link a few together (anywhere in the
world) and do team flying practice. The possibilities are....erm...
expensive.
Perhaps I need to convince the Computer Vision Group here at CRE that
a kite simulator is something they really should be working on.
Don't hold your breath anyone. :-(
David Lindgren
In article <6d640n$bik$1...@thelonious.new.ox.ac.uk>,
I <da...@thelonious.new.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>All the rotations are in the same direction although I am now starting
>to get confused about it myself now. No more questions until I can go
>and try the bloody thing again. (Although I am told that this w/e
>will be wet)
>
Right, here it is for the last time. If you can't get it by trying it
yourself using the instructions here, then you will have to wait until
we meet on the field.
1) Kite slides in from one edge of the window.
2) Apply a little tension with inside hand - kite turns towards centre
of window
3) Allow wingtip to fall lower than you would for a toe loop (a nice
high bouncing toe-loop would tip stab with the kite reasonably
horizontal and facing up towwards the top of the window; for this, you
want the kite to have turned rather more than that and be facing a bit
more across the window)
4) Pop outside hand. This drives the inside (now the lower wingtip)
into the ground and so the kite bounces up.
5) Because you have allowed the kite to over-rotate before you pop,
the kite does not cleanly perform a full toe-loop and ends up with the
non-stabbing wigtip rushing towards the ground.
6) Just before impact, you pop the other hand (ie. the one you did not
pop before) and the non-stabbing wingtip now hits the ground, and the
kite bounces up to complete the rotation.
7) In essence, you get one whole rotation as a result of two tip
stabs.
It is very difficult to describe exactly how the kite moves, but the
trick is very easily done provided you follow the above instructions.
On another point, I did quite a daft (and possibly stupid) trick
totally accidentally this weekend. Imagine your kite pointing nose
down towards the ground. Somehow you get the kite to point slightly
one way so that when the kite hits the ground, it hits on a wingtip
(leading edge at (say) 45 degrees to the ground). The leading edge
flexes (quite dramatically) and then springs back into shape throwing
the kite back off the ground into a rotation (still with the plane of
the kite sail perpendicular to the ground - no axel like movements
here) and the nose goes through 6 o'clock and the kite comes back down
to the ground on the other wingtip in the same fashion. Leading edge
again flexes dramatically and springs kite back into the air into a
rotation the other way. Repeat until bored or kite is broken. It
reminds me of the motion of a metronome (now there's a good name for
it).
I don't for the life of me know what hand movements I did to get the
kite to do this, but it looked pretty cool. I do not recommend that
you try it too much though - it is a sure way to break your leading
edge carbon.
Dave