Indestrucatble Kites
Michael James Gebis
asked if he could try flying. He had never flown before, but had watched for
quite a while. Luckily, he was pretty good, but this prompted my friend
to ask me if I knew of a REALLY indestructable kite.
I decided this was a job for....rec.kites!
Anybody have any suggestions? Cheap is good. ANything capable of being
slammed into pavement at 60 mph is good. (Just kidding....hopefully I'll
never have to fly over pavement.) Something to let newbies have a taste of
the sport that won't break easily. It doesn't even have to fly well--they
won't know! (Ha ha)
In other words, a very stong kite.
Mike Gebis mjg5...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu OR m-g...@uiuc.edu
Watch this space for a nifty sig soon!
Jeffrey C. Burka
>I was out flying today, and someone I didn't know came up to my friend and
>asked if he could try flying. He had never flown before, but had watched for
>quite a while. Luckily, he was pretty good, but this prompted my friend
>to ask me if I knew of a REALLY indestructable kite.
<grin> Reminds me of the time a friend of mine was out flying his Phantom,
and some woman approached him and offered him $5 to let her grandchild try
the kite. I told him he should have said, "Sure, I'll let him try it for
free, but there's a $300 damage deposit."
>Anybody have any suggestions? Cheap is good. ANything capable of being
>slammed into pavement at 60 mph is good. (Just kidding....hopefully I'll
>never have to fly over pavement.) Something to let newbies have a taste of
>the sport that won't break easily. It doesn't even have to fly well--they
>won't know! (Ha ha)
Well, the old (ca '85) skynasaur ads actually state, "What happens when
you slam your SKYNASAUR into concrete at 60 MPH? Virtually nothing. [...]
The result is a miracle, a kite that won't break."
trlbys and Powell diamonds are always good choices--I virtually never see
broken ones. Plastic trlby and Powell sails can rip pretty easily, but
the kites fly pretty durned well when covered with sundry bits of
various tapes. They're slow, uncomplicated, and cheap.
Old Spin-offs and/or Team Kites, from TotL, are great. I understand that
the newer models are all graphite now (according to the BFK catalog), but
the old ones, with that incredibly heavy "graphlex" (as they used to call
it) are virtually indestructible. In 5 years, I've broken one spar on my
Team kite and nothing on my Spin-Off. And it should be fairly easy to find
someone who wants to dump an old Spin-Off pretty cheaply. I have friends
who've picked up used kites for ~$50, and they still fly well enough for
us to use in large "teams" when a bunch of us gather on the Mall and the
winds are high.
One friend of mine keeps a Cloud Cutter (Go Fly A Kite's 2200CC) in his
bag specifically for teaching people. He added stand-offs to help keep
the kite from stalling--a perpetual problem for beginners.
I've let complete strangers fly my Rev I, my AFC-sparred FireDart, and
probably another kite or two (these are non-kiter strangers. If I see
someone flying reasonably well and s/he wants to try one of my kites, I'm
usually willing).
I let one friend of mine, who'd never touched a kite before, learn to fly
my Rev II. When he got tired and/or frustrated, I stuck him on a stack of
2 6' Flexifoils. I'm not sure why I was confident enough to let him
fly these kites (and I think he was nervous when he found out the retail
value of the "toys" he was playing with), but we didn't have any problems.
I spent about 1/2 hour last summer trying to show my 15 year old sister how
to fly my Spin-Off, and she did not-great-but-not-horribly. Last weekend
she went down to the Washington Monument and a guy I vaguely know down
there let her fly his Spin-Off for quite a while (she proudly told me that
she kept it in the air for 15 minutes in one stretch! ;-).
Obviously, your mileage will vary...
Jeff
Nick Lemberos (staff)
>In article <1992May11....@news.cso.uiuc.edu> mjg5...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Michael James Gebis) writes:
>>to ask me if I knew of a REALLY indestructable kite.
...
>>Anybody have any suggestions? Cheap is good. ANything capable of being
>>slammed into pavement at 60 mph is good. (Just kidding....hopefully I'll
>>never have to fly over pavement.) Something to let newbies have a taste of
...
>Well, the old (ca '85) skynasaur ads actually state, "What happens when
>you slam your SKYNASAUR into concrete at 60 MPH? Virtually nothing. [...]
>The result is a miracle, a kite that won't break."
>
Hudson Trail Outfitters (an outdoors store in the Washington DC area)
has some older Skynasaur Aerobats and the small Skynasaur skyfoil type
on "sale" for about $24. Color selection isnt great but that is about half
the mail order price.
The Aerobat is as close to indestructable as you can get for a stunt kite.
The soft skyfoil type kite is pretty small, compacts down to almost nothing
but it does require a significant wind to keep it up.
nick
--
Nick Lemberos ni...@socrates.umd.edu
Academic Computing ^ sew-crates
"Doing life with no chance for parole" -L. Anderson
Matthew Appler
at the beach, but occasionally here at school. I have no problems
teaching someone to fly with it. I don't know how many times it has
nosed in from a dive from it's apex...Still looks and flys great....
Matthew
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Matthew Appler at the University of Massachusettes |******Orioles******|
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Internet: s022...@titan.ucc.umass.edu |(Almost)TOP OF AL EAST!!!!!|
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Johnathan Vail
I think that a flexi is probably the closest thing to indestructable.
Since the leading edge is flat there really isn't any force on the
structural members and the wear on the fabric is spread out over
entire edge.
It was a good learning kite for me (except for launching...).
jv
"Any thought could be the beginning
of a brand new tangled web you're spinning" - =Sebadoh=
_____
| | Johnathan Vail va...@tegra.com (508) 663-7435
|Tegra| j...@n1dxg.ampr.org N1...@448.625-(WorldNet)
----- MEMBER: League for Programming Freedom (lea...@prep.ai.mit.edu)
Light Bearer
>
>>I was out flying today, and someone I didn't know came up to my friend and
>>asked if he could try flying. He had never flown before, but had watched for
>>quite a while. Luckily, he was pretty good, but this prompted my friend
>>to ask me if I knew of a REALLY indestructable kite.
>
>
>Old Spin-offs and/or Team Kites, from TotL, are great.
I can't agree more. My wife and I have an old TotL North Shore Radical. My
dad, his wife, and both of us learned to fly with it. It has crashed HARD
many, many times. In fact, this weekend, my aunt-in-law crashed it into
_pavement_ twice at nearly full speed! The only real damage is that the
nose webbing is starting to get a small hole in it. Best of all, with new
graphite spars (recently installed) the kite still performs quite well
in a variety of wind conditions. It's still my wife's favorite kite for
just having fun and getting pulled around.
BTW - any one got a good suggestion for fixing the webbing? I don't have
access to industial sewing machines or anything.
>
>Obviously, your mileage will vary...
>
>Jeff
>
Dean Hines
dhi...@astro.as.utexas.edu
Jeffrey C. Burka
>BTW - any one got a good suggestion for fixing the webbing? I don't have
>access to industial sewing machines or anything.
Just rip off the old webbing and sew on a new piece. You don't need
any sort of fancy sewing machine to do it--the needle will go right through
the webbing with no trouble.
Or, you could be lazy about it and just tape it up...;-)
Jeff
Kenneth Yoder
>BTW - any one got a good suggestion for fixing the webbing? I don't have
>access to industial sewing machines or anything.
The webbing is very porous and easy to sew. I use a regular machine and had
almost no trouble replacing the nose of a Hawaiian Team. When the machine
occasionally got stuck, I would turn it slowly by hand and it would take
off again.
Maybe I'm just lucky?! Marty, or others, how about it?
Ken Yoder
kyo...@lamar.colostate.edu
Alex Rosser
>I think that a flexi is probably the closest thing to indestructable.
>Since the leading edge is flat there really isn't any force on the
>structural members and the wear on the fabric is spread out over
>entire edge.
Actually, a flexi is only ALMOST indestructable. If you slam it into the
ground nose first(such as the nose is...you know what I mean), you can
pop the back end out of the kite. You'd have to be flying in a pretty
high wind tho'...
>It was a good learning kite for me (except for launching...).
As for launching, I've discovered that launching from grass is a real pain,
but sand or dirt works fine(beaches, baseball diamonds, whatever...).
Suppossedly, if you prop up the kite on something like two rails, or sticks
set in the ground grass launches are much easier, but I prefer the flying
at the beach anyway.
>jv
>|Tegra| j...@n1dxg.ampr.org N1...@448.625-(WorldNet)
> ----- MEMBER: League for Programming Freedom (lea...@prep.ai.mit.edu)
Alex Rosser
lxro...@gap.cco.caltech.edu
Jeffrey C. Burka
>Actually, a flexi is only ALMOST indestructable. If you slam it into the
>ground nose first(such as the nose is...you know what I mean), you can
>pop the back end out of the kite. You'd have to be flying in a pretty
>high wind tho'...
Interesting...I've never seen a blown out trailing edge. The one time I
slammed the kite into the ground in a high wind, I put a foot and a half
rip in one of the outside cell walls.
But on a related noet: Anybody else notice a tendency for the stitching to
come loose along the curve on the top of the kite between the roof and
the outside cell wall? It happened on one of my flexis, and when a friend of
mine was showing me an old custom flexi he'd bought used, I noticed it had the
same problem in the same spot. It's real easy to fix--rip out one seam
on the trailing edge and you can get the cell inside out to resew it.
>As for launching, I've discovered that launching from grass is a real pain,
>but sand or dirt works fine(beaches, baseball diamonds, whatever...).
>Suppossedly, if you prop up the kite on something like two rails, or sticks
>set in the ground grass launches are much easier, but I prefer the flying
>at the beach anyway.
Of course, if you're using launching "rails" you're not really launching
from gras...;-)
I do probably 90% of my flying over grass, and it seems that the only times
I have trouble are when the grass is wet or when the grass has a bumpy,
clumped nature. The spar gets caught by the clumps and tends to curl the
kite around the spar so it won't fill with air. It's gotten to the point
where if the grass is wet (and I don't have somebody to help me launch), I
don't even pull out a Flexi--it's not worth the frustration of attempting
a launch when I have plenty of deltas to play with.
Sand launches _are_ quite easy, but you always end up with sand in the
kite--that can throw off the flight characteristics if there's enough
sand. And sand can be a pain to get out (a major advantage to the
Quadrifoil...;-)
Jeff
Marty Sasaki
In article <1992May12.2...@yuma.acns.colostate.edu>, kyo...@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Kenneth Yoder) writes:
|>The webbing is very porous and easy to sew. I use a regular machine and had
|>almost no trouble replacing the nose of a Hawaiian Team. When the machine
|>occasionally got stuck, I would turn it slowly by hand and it would take
|>off again.
|>
|>Maybe I'm just lucky?! Marty, or others, how about it?
Did someone call my name? ;-)
Anyway, It should be relatively easy to sew on a new nosepiece. It is
seatbealt webbing. Make sure you have a sharp needle and go slowly. I
use a home sewing machine with no problems at all.
You can get it at many kite stores, and mail order from Hang-em High,
or The Fabric Lady/Kitestuff. Another source is an automotive junk
yard. You might be able to get matching colors from the junkyard.
--
Marty Sasaki sas...@tle.enet.dec.com
Digital Equipment Co. Sasaki Kite Fabrications
110 Spit Brook Road ZK02-3/N30 26 Green Street
Nashua, NH 03062 Jamaica Plain, MA 02130
603-881-0151 617-522-8546
Johnathan Vail
Actually, a flexi is only ALMOST indestructable. If you slam it into the
ground nose first(such as the nose is...you know what I mean), you can
pop the back end out of the kite.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I'm not sure what you main. Can you elaborate?
>It was a good learning kite for me (except for launching...).
As for launching, I've discovered that launching from grass is a real pain,
but sand or dirt works fine(beaches, baseball diamonds, whatever...).
Suppossedly, if you prop up the kite on something like two rails, or sticks
set in the ground grass launches are much easier, but I prefer the flying
at the beach anyway.
I've seen the various tricks and such but usually I get a person to
hold it open to inflate, then with a good gust pull back and watch as
it flops onto the ground, then bounces up and flies away. Looks silly
but almost always seems to work this way.
jv
. /|/|
_______/ | |
( ) \ | |
\|\|
_____
| | Johnathan Vail va...@tegra.com (508) 663-7435
Alex Rosser
>In article <1992May13.0...@cco.caltech.edu> lxro...@cco.caltech.edu (Alex Rosser) writes:
> Actually, a flexi is only ALMOST indestructable. If you slam it into the
> ground nose first(such as the nose is...you know what I mean), you can
> pop the back end out of the kite.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>I'm not sure what you main. Can you elaborate?
If you dive the kite at the ground in high winds, when it hits it causes a
big increase in the air pressure inside the Flexi's sail bags(I lack a better
word for these... air pockets maybe?). Anyway, if the pressure is high
enough, somethings going to give way. Either the material forming the
pockets will rip, or the stitching at the back will give way.
Hope this helps(and never happens)
-Alex Rosser
lxro...@gap.cco.caltech.edu
Paul Crowley
Can anyone explain the difference between the carbon fibre tubes available?
For instance, Phantoms can be supplied with "AFC" or "Beman" and I've seen
that TOTL can sell a custom spinoff with "Easton" framing.
BTW what's a "four-wrap spine" ?
Please excuse my ignorance.
Paul C.
Marty Sasaki
In article <1992May14.0...@aber.ac.uk>, p...@aber.ac.uk (Paul Crowley) writes:
|>Can anyone explain the difference between the carbon fibre tubes available?
|>For instance, Phantoms can be supplied with "AFC" or "Beman" and I've seen
|>that TOTL can sell a custom spinoff with "Easton" framing.
AFC and Beman are both companies who manufacture mostly graphite
arrows. They've found that their seconds make good kite spars. They
also sell firsts as kite spars.
Generally, AFC tubes are stronger (can take more abuse), and are more
flexible for a given weight than Beman spars. If you want the best
performace, then use a Beman spar. If you want a kite that will take a
bit more abuse, then use an AFC spar.
The differences are small however.
Many kites made in Europe use Beman spars. Beman is, I believe, a
French company. AFC is seen in kites made in the USA, since AFC is an
American company, although some kites made in the USA use Beman spars.
Easton (they make arrows, golf shafts, wind surfer masts, and baseball
bats, to name a few) manufactures a spar that consists of a thin
walled tube of high strength aluminum with graphite bonded to the
outside. The result is a fairly light weight and stiff spar that holds
up to abuse fairly well. Top of the Line, as well as Spectra Sports
use these spars in many of their kites.
To complicate matters even more, Easton also manufactures two
different types of graphite only spars.
|> BTW what's a "four-wrap spine" ?
There are three ways of making graphite spars. One way is to use a
process called "pultruding", which is a combination of extruding and
pulling. It's sort of like the way that rigatoni is made, a mixture of
carbon fibers and resin are extruded. This is then pulled until the
spar is the proper diameter and the result is set aside to cure.
The second method is to take a metal rod and to wrap a narrow strip of
carbon fiber fabric that has been impregnated with resin in a spiral
fashion around the metal rod. Once the wrap(s) are in place,
everything is placed into an oven to cure the resin. The spar is then
removed from the rod.
The later method results in spars that often referred to as "spiral
wound" spars. The number of wraps determine the stiffness and the
weight of the spar.
Glassforms uses a unique process which is sort of a combination of the
two. A layer of material is placed lengthwise along the spar, then
another layer is wrapped around this layer, and finally another layer
is placed lengthwise.
So, a four wrap spine is a spiral wound spar that has 4 layers of
graphite fabric. It is very stiff, fairly strong, yet light in weight.
There are many companies making carbon fiber or composite spars for
kites. Those that I know of include:
Advantage - spiral wound graphite
AFC - pultruded graphite
Beman - pultruded graphite
Clearwater - spiral wound graphite and fiberglass
Easton - aluminum/carbon composite, spiral wound
graphite, pultruded graphite
Glassforms - graphite, fiberglass, and
fiberglass/graphite mixtures.
Additionally, there is at least one other European manufacturer, and
one in Asia. I don't know much about either of these manufacturers.
CSEPLO,STEPHEN P
>>access to industial sewing machines or anything.
>
No, not lucky. Webbing is real easy to sew.
--
The Mad Hata
"Hey, Mon....Tako Kichi!"