2 line into 1 line
Scot Lawrence
Another question for thee..
Does anyone know how to convert a 2 line stunter (delta) into a single
line kite? I dont want it to be a permanent change,(I would leave the
bridles attached) just sometimes I feel like giving the stunting a rest
and I would like to stick the stunter up in the sky and let it hang..I
have tried attaching a string to the top and bottom of the center spar,
then tying the single line in the center, to approximate the keel of a
single line delta, bu the kite just isnt stable without its two lines..
any thoughts?
Thanks,
Scot, Rochester NY
Michael L.Eason
Hi Scott,
There have been kites of this kind before but they wer all diamond shaped
two liners where the two lines could be connected at one tow point and
flown as a single liner. You might be successful with this same
arrangement, maybe with some extensions from the bridle points, on a very
forgiving delta-style stunt kite. But I have a feeling that most deltas, at
least the current crop of very high-performance two line kites, would
depend greatly on some very critical tuning between the right and left
sides. I can'y imagine being able to find that balance point between the
two sides of a normal bridle for most delta-shaped two liners where it
would fly as a single line kite with predictably stable results. I would
expect that the critical point would be determined by millimeters! But,
then again, I, never tried it so what do I know? Diamond shaped two liners
lend themselves to this much more easily.
I think I'd approach this by attaching a loop of line, about 2-3 times the
width of the kite, to the normal tow points. Then attach a "double
larks-head" small loop at the center point. That's a small loop commonly
used on Rokkaku's, fighter kites, etc, where the larks head can be snapped
back and forth between the large and small loops, slid left or right, and
then snapped back to lock in in place.
(Someone help me with a web url to a pic of this!)
But anything is worth a try, right? Good luck with your experiments! And
always remember that the greatest discoveries in history were found while
experimenting with some other idea that may have failed. It's a "process"
sort of 'thang.
--
NOTE: To reply click 'reply' as usual, then edit the NOSPAM
portion out of the 'to:' e-mail address.
Michael L. Eason, Media Specialist, Interactive Media Designer
Everett Community College, Everett, Washington, USA
and: Kichiwa Graphic Systems, Lake Stevens, WA, USA
Philip Le Riche
> Scot Lawrence wrote:
> >
> > Greetings Kite people,
> > Another question for thee..
> > Does anyone know how to convert a 2 line stunter (delta) into a single
> > line kite? I dont want it to be a permanent change,(I would leave the
> > bridles attached) just sometimes I feel like giving the stunting a rest
> Hi Scott,
> There have been kites of this kind before but they wer all diamond shaped
> two liners where the two lines could be connected at one tow point and
> flown as a single liner. You might be successful with this same
> arrangement, maybe with some extensions from the bridle points, on a very
> forgiving delta-style stunt kite. But I have a feeling that most deltas, at
> least the current crop of very high-performance two line kites, would
> depend greatly on some very critical tuning between the right and left
> sides. I can'y imagine being able to find that balance point between the
> two sides of a normal bridle for most delta-shaped two liners where it
> would fly as a single line kite with predictably stable results. I would
> expect that the critical point would be determined by millimeters! But,
> then again, I, never tried it so what do I know? Diamond shaped two liners
> lend themselves to this much more easily.
I can't completely agree, Michael. Some cheap diamond stunters sold over
here say in the instructions to connect a single line to both the
tow-points joined together but I'm convinced the makers have never tried
it. Several years ago before I got heavily into kites I met a family on
the beach who were trying to do just that with minimal success. Recently
I made a new sail for some friends for their plastic diamond stunter. I
made up an alternative bridle with both legs attached to the spine. It
then becomes an Eddy (near enough - Anthony Thyssen will kill me for
saying that). It flew well with the single line bridle.
I've sometimes wondered whether you could fly a flexifoil on one line -
it's the same problem as single-lining a delta - it has no inherent
stability. It's not that it's UNstable (tho some of the more twitchy
ones may be) but it's just not STABLE - like a ball resting on a flat
table - it doesn't mind which way it goes, or whether it stays where it
is, unlike a ball in a bowl, or on an upturned bowl.
I think the only simple way of stabilising it would be to attach a tail
or drogue. However, with quite a lot of thought and experiment I'm
tempted to think that the principles by which Andy's active bridle moves
the tow point might be applicable, tho' a stabilising bridle would be
completely different to Andy's.
- Philip
--
=============================================================================
Philip Le Riche Voice: +44 1442 884390
(Malgre son nom, ce brave homme Fax: +44 1442 884854
ne parle pas Francais) Email: pler...@uk03.bull.co.uk
=============================================================================
Jean Lemire
Someone told me that this could work.
Attach your two usual control lines like you would do for flying stunts.
Then, anchor the other ends on the ground at some substantial distance from
one another. Try 20 feet as a start and increase as needed untill you get
some stability. Of course, the two anchor points should be on a line
perpendicular with the wind direction. Steady wind will be a must (or at
least a wind that do not shift too much).
You may experiement with the help of a friend. One is holding one line
steady and you move away slowly while controling the kite with one line only
(doing pull and push moves to stabilize the kite). Try to find the minimum
distance that will give you some stability then anchor the lines.
To do that alone I suggest the following:
- anchor one line;
- take the kite off the ground by pulling on the lines in front of that
anchor;
- as soon as the kite is aloft, let the anchored end go tight and control
with the other line;
- walk sideway until you do not have to steer anymore to hover the kite;
- anchor this line.
Sounds difficult. Not really. I did it once but the wind was too gusty for
a good result. However it seemed promising.
Wind or no wind, fly for fun.
Jean (Johnny) Lemire of team S.T.A.F.F. from Montreal, Canada.
James Hodson
wrote:
>Attach your two usual control lines like you would do for flying stunts.
>Then, anchor the other ends on the ground at some substantial distance from
>one another. Try 20 feet as a start and increase as needed untill you get
>some stability. Of course, the two anchor points should be on a line
>perpendicular with the wind direction. Steady wind will be a must (or at
>least a wind that do not shift too much).
>
>You may experiement with the help of a friend. One is holding one line
>steady and you move away slowly while controling the kite with one line only
>(doing pull and push moves to stabilize the kite). Try to find the minimum
>distance that will give you some stability then anchor the lines.
>
>To do that alone I suggest the following:
>
>- anchor one line;
>
>- take the kite off the ground by pulling on the lines in front of that
>anchor;
>
>- as soon as the kite is aloft, let the anchored end go tight and control
>with the other line;
>
>- walk sideway until you do not have to steer anymore to hover the kite;
>
>- anchor this line.
>
>Sounds difficult. Not really. I did it once but the wind was too gusty for
>a good result. However it seemed promising.
You shouldn't need anything like a 20 foot gap between the two staked
lines.
Try this: Fly the kite to the top center of the window then spread both
arms to the side in a sort of crucifix position. The kite will meander from
left to right and back again in a figure of 8 motion but will stay at the
top of the wind window in the center. As the kite moves to the left more
tension is put on the right line which pulls it back to the right and vice
versa. It's important that you launch the kite as near to the center of the
window as possible to ensure that the tension on both lines is equal.
All you then then to do is to stake the lines down. The gap between the
lines is about 6 feet but you can always move the stakes apart to achieve
more stability.
I haven't tried staking the lines down with my own kite. I'm new to the
sport and only have the one kite (until next week) and don't want to break
it, but a friend's quad foil stayed aloft for over an hour untouched by
human hand. It was extremely soporific to watch the foil writing graceful
figures of 8 in the sky.
I wouldn't recommend trying this in a gusty wind. If the wind dies and the
kite goes nose down then the wind picks up with the kite 3 feet from the
ground... well, I'll leave it up to your imagination.
Regards and good luck.
James
PS Don't blame me if you break something!
"Watch the kite not where you're going!"
(RB 29/8/98)
Jean Lemire
I agree with you that the "crucifix" position will hold most kites steady.
But as you pointed out some kites are less stable (bridle setting plays a
role here) and unstable winds are the norm here in Montreal. Hence the
suggestion of using 20 feet of spacing. In good conditions, less than 10
feet shall be adequate.
Steve Millspaugh
: Greetings Kite people,
: Another question for thee..
: Does anyone know how to convert a 2 line stunter (delta) into a single
: line kite? I dont want it to be a permanent change,(I would leave the
: bridles attached) just sometimes I feel like giving the stunting a rest
: have tried attaching a string to the top and bottom of the center spar,
: then tying the single line in the center, to approximate the keel of a
: single line delta, bu the kite just isnt stable without its two lines..
: any thoughts?
: Thanks,
: Scot, Rochester NY
This question reminds me of a comment made to me once by the
late Doug Hagaman. Something like " a dual line kite is a test
of the kitefliers skill, a single line kite is a test of the
kitemakers skill" They are simply different beasts.
Steve Millspaugh <spa...@netcom.com>
ps This isn't meant to imply that making a good dual line kite isn't
tough, just a rumination on how hard it is to balance a single line
kite properly.
Steve Bateman
> I've sometimes wondered whether you could fly a flexifoil on one line -
> it's the same problem as single-lining a delta - it has no inherent
> stability. It's not that it's UNstable (tho some of the more twitchy
> ones may be) but it's just not STABLE - like a ball resting on a flat
> table - it doesn't mind which way it goes, or whether it stays where it
> is, unlike a ball in a bowl, or on an upturned bowl.
*Great* analogy!
--
Steve Bateman geokite at sprintmail dot com
7.0m 1st gen. Chevron buggy kite, Icarex+spectra, $195+shipping
Check out the San Diego Kite Club at http://www.ratzilla.com/sdkc/
John Wilcox
as a single line kite providing that there is a good blow going, as I
demonstrated at 1s1w on Sunday. I just put both pigtails through one
larkshead and up it goes!
Heard that it has been done with a flexifoil. but I wouldn't like to
try it with a delta though
John
Michael Raycraft
Scot Lawrence <scot...@frontiernet.net> wrote in article
<36213069...@frontiernet.net>...
> Greetings Kite people,
> Another question for thee..
> Does anyone know how to convert a 2 line stunter (delta) into a single
> line kite? I dont want it to be a permanent change,(I would leave the
> bridles attached) just sometimes I feel like giving the stunting a rest
> and I would like to stick the stunter up in the sky and let it hang.[...]
A couple of summers ago Mike Delfar had an old Phantom (I think it was)
rigged up as a single-liner at an event I attended at Ajax, Ontario. I wish
I'd paid better attention to how it was rigged, but the sight certainly
caught the eye. Don't know if Mike is tuned in regularly to rec.kites these
days but if not maybe word will get around to him so that he can give us a
clue...
Michael [|*// Michael Raycraft am...@torfree.net
-=-
'Force Three and a Half sir, gusting Four,' he said. 'Sou-sou-west,
steady. I'd rather be flying.' (Kiteworld, Keith Roberts)
Mike Delfar
> A couple of summers ago Mike Delfar had an old Phantom (I think it was)
> rigged up as a single-liner at an event I attended at Ajax, Ontario. I wish
> I'd paid better attention to how it was rigged, but the sight certainly
> caught the eye. Don't know if Mike is tuned in regularly to rec.kites these
> days but if not maybe word will get around to him so that he can give us a
> clue...
>
> Michael [|*// Michael Raycraft am...@torfree.net
Thanks Mike,
I'm Glad somone noticed it.
I'm Off to the convention so I must be brief. The short story is that the
Phantom would not fly with 1 fly line attatched to the 2 bridle lines, so I
rebridled. Made the bridle alot longer and attatched it to the upper
connectors and the center tee, Still highly unstable and unflyable. Rebridled
again, and again, and again. No luck. Then I shortened the lower spreaders by
10% and removed the stand offs. Now the kite would begin to climb, but never
get beyond 30 degree's before rolling over and "goin'-in". Then I removed the
top and bottom spreader completely,and placed a new spreader on the back of
the kite about 30% down from the nose. Now were gettin' close! It would climb
to an 80 degree angle in steady wind, but, 2 or 3 degrees of wind shift and it
would dive in, I don't mean LOOP, I mean it would roll over 180 degrees and
drive straight down 2 or 3 hundred feet! Weird! A drogue tail did nothing. A
ribbon tail of 50 feet would help, but that wasn't what I was after. Finally I
threw in the towel and made a keel of fabric, with the appropriate
reinforcements, sewed it to the center of the kite and, viola!
Gravity Sucks,
Mike Delfar
Gene
> it's the same problem as single-lining a delta - it has no inherent
Ever paged through that book called Kiteworks? As I recall it had the
Flexifoil history with some reall old pics of Ray Merry playing with
plastic and stuff. There is also a pic of a screen or a banner being held
aloft by what looks like a 4footer about 8ft or so off the ground..... I do
think that the banner(it has a shape that reminds me of a shark's egg pod)
does give it the stability as 4foot flexi's/Hotshots are very skitish as it
is.
Ciao,
David Lord
<scot...@frontiernet.net> wrote:
>Greetings Kite people,
>Another question for thee..
>Does anyone know how to convert a 2 line stunter (delta) into a single
>line kite? I dont want it to be a permanent change,(I would leave the
>bridles attached) just sometimes I feel like giving the stunting a rest
>and I would like to stick the stunter up in the sky and let it hang..I
>have tried attaching a string to the top and bottom of the center spar,
>then tying the single line in the center, to approximate the keel of a
>single line delta, bu the kite just isnt stable without its two lines..
>any thoughts?
>Thanks,
>Scot, Rochester NY
>
Scott
I have read most of the replys to your question and no one hit on
the reason it is so difficult. A single line kite to be stable must
have a L/D of around 2 or less. A decent stunter will have a L/D of 3
to 5.
Dave Lord
Richard Bettis
> Hiya,
> Ever paged through that book called Kiteworks? As I recall it had the
> Flexifoil history with some reall old pics of Ray Merry playing with
> plastic and stuff. There is also a pic of a screen or a banner being held
> aloft by what looks like a 4footer about 8ft or so off the ground..... I do
> think that the banner(it has a shape that reminds me of a shark's egg pod)
> does give it the stability as 4foot flexi's/Hotshots are very skitish as it
> is.
>
IIRC the origianl idea which lead to the flexifoil was as a "skyhook" for such
organic sculptures (the guys *were* art school students...)
I assume they were looking for a kite with more fluid lines than those
available at the time, to form an integral part of the whole sculpture.
I guess that once the flexifoil idea was started they realised that they were
having more fun with it as a "toy" rather than as a work of art.
Or perhaps they couldn't get the thing stable on a fixed tether either :).
--
+=============================================================================+
| Richard Bettis | "Yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind" |
| <rbe...@fats.demon.co.uk> | Psalm 18, Verse 10 |
| Kite fliers Quotes (maybe) | |
+=============================================================================+
LevÃdrèievich Thereminski Von Trulôff
with no much experience on kites, my intuitive method before realising I should look into the web is:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XD6Rzjff7YRkc2WSR6QEWqin8MEi1RcR/view?usp=drivesdk
I guess it resembles the mentioned keep-lines-apart approach.
I hope somebody can test it and confirm or discard the autostabilizer system, or provide insight about the additional lines lengths or angles. I will not be able to fly right these days...
Andrés
LevÃdrèievich Thereminski Von Trulôff
Gary R. Schmidt
it can be seen?
I'm not giving out and ids.
Cheers,
Gary B-)
--
Waiting for a new signature to suggest itself...
