Because of this, I have re-done the Records page at The Bounce Page,
This is a first attempt at capturing the records that I personally know are
true or have been told are true. There is a lot of missing information. If
you have had a better run than I have listed or if you know the numbers for
someone else, please
write me and I'll update the list. I need no proof, other than your word as
an honorable bounce juggler. Help me fill in the holes.
What's your best attempt at passing 17?
Has anyone tried 3-man passing and do you remember how many you did? Even if
you think the number is low, I'll post it and challenge others to beat it.
Who's mastered the 7-ball force?
I only want to get this info because it doesn't exist elsewhere and I would
like it to stimulate interest in numbers bouncing and well as let everyone
know what's possible.
thanks in advance,
Dave Critchfield, ball bouncer
"Dave Critchfield" <jug...@va.prestige.net> wrote in message
at the 4th italian juggling convention Antonio Bucci willl try
to beat the records with 7, 8 and 9 balls. I would like to know, what is
needed that the records will be ufficial?
thanks for helping me
(Aig-Italian Jugglers Association)
The Juggling Information Service (JIS) maintains a Juggling Records List at
http://www.juggling.org/records/records.html You can see that there are
currently no bounce juggling records on the list. If you send me a video of
Antonio's record breaking runs, I will send it to them and work with them to
get bounce juggling added to their page. For now, the only unofficial
listing is my page. My mailing address is:
HC 73 Box 733A
Locust Grove, VA 22508 USA
Does Antonio have any electronic copies of cool bouncing pictures of himself
that he wouldn't mind if I shared at my Bounce Gallery at
Jochen Wenz <cirque...@libero.it> wrote in message
If the JIS-CNJ were to start recording bounce juggling categories, should
we have different categories for force bounce and lift bounce? If so, an
anyone come up with a watertight definition which would allow us to
determine which is which?
speaking for myself and not the JIS-CNJ
Absolutely. They're completely different skills, and force is much more
difficult than lift for a given number. And have you re-acronyzed? I
thought you were going by JISCONJ.
> If so, an
> anyone come up with a watertight definition which would allow us to
> determine which is which?
Here's what I'd think: If the ball's vertical motion on release from the
hand is downwards, the throw is a force bounce. If it's not downwards
(i.e., the ball is moving upwards or is released with no vertical
motion) it's a lift bounce.
In practice I expect it will be very easy to tell the two apart,
especially using frame by frame video.
Any other opinions?
>If you [...] know the numbers for someone else, please
>write me and I'll update the list.
I hardly speak Italian but going through an article by Antonio Bucci
in Juggling Magazine (n. 4, Luglio 1999, pp 14-16) I detected the
Ma già nell'86 facevo otto palline per quattro minuti e mezzo, e ho
fatto nove palline per mezzo minuto. Nel 92, in Giappone giocai con
sette palline per 23 minuti ininterrottamente. Ventitré minuti sono
lunghi, e sicuramente i primi minuti sono i più difficili.
Which I understand as: 8 balls 4.5 minutes, 9 balls 0.5 minutes, 7
balls 23 minutes. That would beat the records in all three categories
on your web page.
Wolfgang Schebeczek <ws...@EUnet.at>
> Andrew Conway wrote:
> > If the JIS-CNJ were to start recording bounce juggling categories, should
> > we have different categories for force bounce and lift bounce?
> > If so, an anyone come up with a watertight definition which would
> > allow us to determine which is which?
> Here's what I'd think: If the ball's vertical motion on release from the
> hand is downwards, the throw is a force bounce. If it's not downwards
> (i.e., the ball is moving upwards or is released with no vertical
> motion) it's a lift bounce.
I suggest not using the word "release". Some jugglers just touch the
balls without grabbing them.
I'd say that for it to be a force bounce, every ball must move
downward as it leaves the hand. Otherwise it is a lift bounce.
Should the balls be required to bounce between touches by the hands?
I'd say no, to allow for a bobble (two or more touches without a
The balls cannot bounce more than once between touches by the juggler.
(Multi-bounce patterns are presumably not going to be included in the
records any time soon -- otherwise you need to specify the number of
bounces for a given pattern: for lift and force, it is one bounce.)
I personally watched (and timed) Pat MacGuire bounce juggling 7 balls for
30 minutes. Not that my say so makes it official, but I'd recommend beating
that record unless he wants me to make fun of him and mock his masculinity
in a bad Italian accent.
I would guess that the number of catches for 9 balls is about 5 per second, but
that could be reduced if he stands on a chair (wanker fashion, according to Ben
Jennings) for that number. I'd recommend sticking with time based measurements
for longer runs.
I think that bounce juggling 7 is similar in difficulty to toss juggling 5.
The great jugglers can keep these going for a LONG time. Any thoughts?
Alan Morgan <amo...@Xenon.Stanford.EDU> wrote in message
From al...@efi.com Mon Jan 29 16:32:17 GMT 1996
> FWIW, I once timed Pat McGuire doing a 7 ball lift bounce for 20 minutes.
I'd agree with Alan about counting catches up to a minute or so, and then
time after that. And I'd agree with Dave that a 7 lift for endurance is
similar to a 5 cascade in the air, since you don't have to use as much
energy to lift bounce.
If a nine ball record is established, check with Maria Choudu of Cirque du
Soleil's Saltimbanco (she's performing Miguel Herrera's act). She says 9
isn't too hard. There was also a young Russian named Soslan Souanov in the
Cirque de Demain competition this year in Paris who bounced nine briefly in
"Dave Critchfield" <jug...@va.prestige.net> wrote in message
>If a nine ball record is established, check with Maria Choudu of Cirque
>Soleil's Saltimbanco (she's performing Miguel Herrera's act). She says
>isn't too hard. There was also a young Russian named Soslan Souanov in
>Cirque de Demain competition this year in Paris who bounced nine
... which reminds me of a bounce juggling act that Archaos used
to have - I have no idea of his name, but I think he was in the
'Chapiteu des Cordes' show when it played at the South Bank in '88. The
guy had a little prop a bit like a drum skin to bounce his balls off,
and because he got such a good reliable bounce, I can remember him doing
a 5 ball lift with his hands no more than about a foot from the surface
of the 'drum'. I have a suspicion he may have performed 7 in that show,
and I would be inclined to think he could have gone on forever with 5
balls, and longer than it takes paint to dry, with 7.
"I'm off for a quiet pint - followed by 15 noisy ones" - Gareth Chilcott
The JIS-CNJ does not keep pattern-specific records for toss juggling and
I don't think they should do that for bounce juggling either. When you
start making the committee members into pattern police you open the door
to such nastiness as fouling a juggler out of a record for slight
deviations from a pattern even when otherwise valid catches are made.
Think of a situation where you might have a good bounce juggler in the
midst of a potential record breaking 7-ball lift bounce making a great
recovery catch mid-juggle and correcting by throwing what might
technically be considered a force bounce by the committee. Is it adios
for that try, even though the juggling continues with no missed catches?
In my opinion you count the balls, you count the bounces, you count the
catches, and you leave the pattern freestyle for the jugglers to deal
with as they see fit.
>> > If so, an anyone come up with a watertight definition which would
>> > allow us to determine which is which?
"Watertight"? I doubt it.
>> Here's what I'd think: If the ball's vertical motion on release from the
>> hand is downwards, the throw is a force bounce. If it's not downwards
>> (i.e., the ball is moving upwards or is released with no vertical
>> motion) it's a lift bounce.
>I suggest not using the word "release". Some jugglers just touch the
>balls without grabbing them.
>I'd say that for it to be a force bounce, every ball must move
>downward as it leaves the hand. Otherwise it is a lift bounce.
"Downward as it leave the hand", what does that mean? Like, if I lift
the balls, but the motion of my hand is _slightly_ downwards at the time
it leaves my hand (say, from a palm down grip), does that mean I'm doing
a force bounce?
Michael Ferguson (a.k.a. Fergie)
Don't edit my post, it gets confusing (and is probably immoral).
>From al...@efi.com Mon Jan 29 16:32:17 GMT 1996
>> FWIW, I once timed Pat McGuire doing a 7 ball lift bounce for 20 minutes.
I actually said 30 minutes, and that is what Ben was commenting on.
This provides an interesting case study in why we shouldn't rely
on the recollections of well meaning idiots, because now I can't
remember if it was 20 minutes or 30 minutes. Damn, damn, damn.
Since they are two patterns with a great difference in difficulty, most
over-all records will be lift bounced. I however think the JIS-CNJ should
keep other records. I don't mean like half-shower, where you don't really
if it is a half-shower or what. I mean like one handed juggling'. It is
either with one hand, or its not, plain and simple. I think showering
be on there too.
About the debate of how to count showering. Since the JIS only counts
catches, we have that. We cant count catches of passes because if you start
with all 6 balls in your left hand (non dominant) then "flash" a 6 ball
shower. it would be 12 catches with all of them ending up in your left hand.
If you passed them all to the right again, it would be 18. It makes no
If you only count the catches of the high throws, a Flash is always 6
I don't see what the big fuss is about.
there should be a page on overall records, like if someone used a shower
instead of a cascade for 9 balls, then that would be the record. Frankly
would make it more interesting. I would like to know the records for
showering and one handed juggling, and the last time someone broke a normal
records was in NOV. of 2000.
>"Downward as it leave the hand", what does that mean? Like, if I lift
>the balls, but the motion of my hand is _slightly_ downwards at the time
>it leaves my hand (say, from a palm down grip), does that mean I'm doing
>a force bounce?
Com'on Fergie. It doesn't get any simpler. When he says "Downward as it
the hand" I think he means, "Downward as it leaves the hand", which means
there is no upward movement upon release. You don't have to have your palms
down. You could "claw" a force bounce, and as long as the balls go down on
the outside, it counts. both grips work. If the balls go downward as they
leave the hand, it is a force bounce. I think though it would be better to
say if the balls go down on the outside, it is a force bounce, but who
I don't think you can do a force bounce the opposite way.
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In article <3B13...@MailAndNews.com>, Chris_...@MailAndNews.com
> [...] and the last time someone broke a normal
> records was in NOV. of 2000.
Actually we have another record in the pipeline, but are haggling over
the validity of the last catch. Sometimes these things are not clear even
with freeze frame on a video. Look for an announcement any month now.
... speaking for myself and not the JIS-CNJ
So, there doesn't even have to be any downward movement of the hand at
all, just as long as there's no upward motion, that's what you're saying
that he (Martin) is meaning, eh?
>You don't have to have your palms
>down. You could "claw" a force bounce, and as long as the balls go down on
>the outside, it counts. both grips work. If the balls go downward as they
>leave the hand, it is a force bounce.
Okay, you hold a ball in your hand palm down, and open the hand to
release it. No noticeable upward motion of the hand and the ball is
going downward when it leaves the hand. That's supposed to be a legal
force bounce? A mere drop? Yikes!
Andrew asked for a watertight definition. I see some leaks.
>I think though it would be better to
>say if the balls go down on the outside, it is a force bounce, but who
>I don't think you can do a force bounce the opposite way.
Can't Ben Jennings do it the opposite way, i.e. a reverse force bounce
I didn't notice you doing any ball bouncing at RIT, Chris. What ball
bouncing patterns are you working on?
Do you think you could give us a little tiny hint as to which current record is in danger?
Sure. One of Heather and Darin's records is going to be beaten by Heather
.sig trying to get
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sfjuggle/files/12clubs1.mov to play
Alan Morgan <amo...@Xenon.Stanford.EDU> wrote in message
What's more important, is that we get some bounce juggling records on there.
Any, would be nice.
Andrew Conway <con...@juggling.org> wrote in message
One handed records would be neat (no distinguishing between left and right
hands, however). The shower is problematic for the same reason that
any specified pattern is problematic. Suppose the last throw the person
makes is straight up instead of to the opposite hand, does that count?
Suppose two balls collide and land in the opposite order (I know, I'm
reaching here) do these catches still count?
It's bloody difficult counting catches when all you have to do is
count catches - and that, in theory, is completely objective. If
you have to make a subjective judgement as to whether or not the
bobbled throw falls within the bounds of legitimacy then you can
get a real argument.
> The JIS-CNJ does not keep pattern-specific records for toss juggling and
By this argument, they shouldn't add bounce records because ... they
don't have bounce records.
> Think of a situation where you might have a good bounce juggler in the
> midst of a potential record breaking 7-ball lift bounce making a great
> recovery catch mid-juggle and correcting by throwing what might
> technically be considered a force bounce by the committee. Is it adios
> for that try, even though the juggling continues with no missed catches?
No, because the proposed definition has no requirement for the lift
bounce (other than one bounce max per throw per ball), since the lift
bounce is easier than the force bounce. The requirement is only for
the force bounce. And yes, if you bobbled a ball and inadvertently
released it moving upward in a force bounce, that throw would end the
pattern (or at least the catch of that throw would end it and would
> "Downward as it leave the hand", what does that mean?
It means the *ball* goes downward relative to the earth when you stop
touching it. It doesn't matter what your hand does at that point.
Ok, here's my idea.
If the JIS-CNJ kept bounce records, what if they did it like this.
Have two categories, the first would simply be bounce juggling
(freestyle, no rules, # of catches all that matters). And then the
second category would be force bounce. Using this system all of the
freestyle records would be lift bounced, because it's easier. But if
like Fergie said, and someone had a really long lift bounce run, and
then in the process of making a save threw a force bounce, under these
guidelines they would not be punished for that.
In order for this to work we have to have a clear concise definition
of a force bounce. Now under the current suggestion of a force bounce
has to be traveling down upon release, there is a lot of grey area
between an inside force bounce (throwing every through to the inside)
and a lift bounce.
So here is my thought. What if as a guideline, instead of throw
trajectory, we use throw position. in a normal force bounce pattern
every throw is made under the incoming ball that will then be caught.
As opposed to a lift bounce pattern, where every through is made
above the incoming ball. Under this rule "a mere drop" would be
considered a legal force bounce, however if you continually use drops,
and every throw must be below the incoming ball, the pattern would
just get lower and lower until in fell apart. This rule would
disqualify an inside force bounce as a legal force bounce, but it is
such an impractical pattern for numbers that I don't think that that
makes to much of a difference.
the only way get out of doing a real force bounce while following this
rule would be to juggle a high three ball cascade and then start
letting every ball bounce. the ball would then bounce back up above
where the next throw would be made. In order to discount this I would
add one more thing to the rule. That after a throw is made it must
remain below the incoming ball until it (the incoming ball) is caught.
So here is my definition of a force bounce.
A force bounce pattern is any pattern in which every through in both
hands is made below the incoming ball that that hand is about to
catch. Every through by both hands must also stay below the incoming
ball until the incoming ball is caught.
No, the argument is that because we don't keep pattern specific records
for toss juggling we also shouldn't keep them for bounce juggling. Seems
reasonable to me.
Tracking force-bouncing separately seems to me to be different from
tracking, say, the center cross pattern separately. The center cross
(or fountain) is the preferred pattern for some people and not for
others. The force bounce, I think we can agree, is the hard way of
doing it and thus it falls into the realm of the "trick".
On that point, I'd simply defer to Alan Morgan's response which, imho,
is spot on. See:
>> Think of a situation where you might have a good bounce juggler in the
>> midst of a potential record breaking 7-ball lift bounce making a great
>> recovery catch mid-juggle and correcting by throwing what might
>> technically be considered a force bounce by the committee. Is it adios
>> for that try, even though the juggling continues with no missed catches?
>No, because the proposed definition has no requirement for the lift
>bounce (other than one bounce max per throw per ball),
Please post that proposed definition to this newsgroup. (Thank you.)
>> "Downward as it leave the hand", what does that mean?
>It means the *ball* goes downward relative to the earth when you stop
>touching it. It doesn't matter what your hand does at that point.
I think that is a weak definition for a force bounce. As I wrote
elsewhere in this thread, such a definition would mean that balls which
were merely dropped without the juggler *forcing* them downwards could
then be considered *force* bounces. But regardless of how the force
bounce is defined, I still think it's a bad idea for the JISCNJ (or
whatever it's called today) to move into the realm of pattern-specific
records for either bounce or toss juggling.
I'm not on the committee, but I can remember sitting on a couch in a
home in Reigate, Surrey one late night a couple of years ago watching a
video over and over and over again and arguing at length with two
prominent ball bouncers about whether or not one single catch on that
video of their NON-record breaking attempt at bounce passing 15-balls
was a valid catch. That one single catch seemed to matter a whole lot
to them. Now you want to add another layer of hassle to the process and
start fussing about things like whether or not someone's hand (or a
ball) moved in a certain direction or not, and if it did, how much, and
did it do so for several thousand times in a row, and so forth? A
nightmare, of which the significance of the end result escapes me.
I'd suggest the committee first get the basic bouncing records section
established and have it run its course for a few years to see how the
bounce jugglers feel about it before they even consider going into the
murkier area of pattern-specific records.
I've seen quite a few people do that with 5.
I've seen one person (from Vis-a-vis) do it with 7. Very solidly. Christophe
has it on video BTW, if the JISCONJ is interested (it is a 7 ball force
bounce after all).
What about force bouncing off of a chair by the way, does that count?
http://www.juggler.net/orr - Club passing and Juggling Simulators
Good question. For record purposes, should the bounce juggler have to be
bouncing off the surface they are standing on, or can they stand on a
What about the use of curved surfaces or membranes as the bounce surface
to provide passive correction to throws?
My initial thought is that the use of a platform would be OK, but the use
of a correcting surface would not, but I can't really justify that
logically. What do you folks think?
.sig sez buy Alan Plotkin's Juggling Videos!
I think that platforms should be fine (mostly because they are not
unusual for higher numbers). Otherwise tall jugglers would have an
advantage. In fact, if you disallow platforms, do you disallow high
heels or thick shoes??? "Sorry, but you didn't submit your shoes
(signed by the witnesses) with the videotape, so we cannot validate
I think curved surfaces should not be allowed, because that's not
what's done. The record should be for the type of juggling that's out
there now, not for some hypothetical style (that might or might not be
easier). If some new style becomes popular and catches on, then you
can add records for it later if you want.
Although I'm inclined to agree that the JISCONJ shouldn't shoot for
more than a "freestyle" bounce record at this time, if there were to
be a rule for force bouncing, it could simply be that each ball has to
bounce higher (untouched) after the bounce than the point at which it
stopped touching the person before the bounce. Reaching such a height
is caused by the force in force bouncing, after all. This would mean
that a collision that prevented such a high return, or a bumping of
the hand on the way up, would mark the end of such a pattern (but it
usually does anyway ;-).
And then there's the question of what is a drop. This is a question
because as I mentioned before, some bounce jugglers don't grip the
balls but just deflect them (in the lift bounce). So do you count
every touch as a catch? Seems like you'd have to. And maybe
qualifying bounce patterns should require 3N instead of 2N catches
(that ought to stir up some replies).