gatto entertainment 14? (sorry if this is old news)
jimifun
could anyone tell me more?
--
----== posted via www.jugglingdb.com ==----
Andreas Folk
what do u wanna know about it?
it's the trailer for GE14 coming out in march 2008 ;)
GE 1-11 were available for free on his homepage
GE 12 and 13 you have to pay for (3$ or so, i don't know)
Adam Rowney
In a world with thousands of jugglers...
One man loves himself more than the rest!
GLF00
One man has a seriously big ego...
ManiacDrew
>
> One man has a seriously big ego...
>
So?
MD
Guillermo Conde
>
> jimifun wrote:
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r005sxNTBYM
> >
> > could anyone tell me more?
> >
> >
>
> One man has a seriously big ego...
>
also, what do you what him to say about himself in his own video? That he
sucks or is a loser?
Alan Morgan
GLF00 <glenluk...@gmail.com.nospam.com> wrote:
>jimifun wrote:
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r005sxNTBYM
>>
>> could anyone tell me more?
>>
>>
>
>One man has a seriously big ego...
"Girls think I'm snooty. Maybe it's true. With my hair and body, you
would be too" - Julie Brown (I'm a Blonde)
Ego or not, he has the skills to back it up.
Alan
--
Defendit numerus
Alan Thompson
He will never be a champion unless he can master juggling and humility.
His ego works against him in this case. I had a non-juggler watch it and
she said "he is an ego-maniac, i,m sure he is not the best in the world."
To which I replied,"yeah he probably is the best ,to be completely
honest." She then said," Well, he sounds like an ass about it anyway."
The babe was love for being a great baseball player and a all around
great, down-to-earth guy.
nuff said.
The more informed Alan
ManiacDrew
> He will never be a champion unless he can master juggling and humility.
>
Where did THAT rule come from? Does the IJA use it?
Anyway, humility is overrated. It just keeps you down.
MD
agedest
competition to be the most conceited top juggler. Second, following
MD and others, what actual relationship has there been between top
jugglers and their perceived self-opinion? I'm thinking Moschen may
have been the most reserved juggler ever, as a matter of style,
nothing was about him, it was only the props. Brunn was very show-
offy, and all the "circus" ones have to be to be in the circus maybe,
and don't know how that will play out with our fave Peden. But how
does one be the best and not be, like, hey I'm the best?
Reeses2150
> But how
> does one be the best and not be, like, hey I'm the best?
>
It's called being humble. It's great for your image, and if you keep it
up long enough, you'll believe it yourself and want to get better.
jani
> Alan Morgan wrote:
>> In article <47a89f74$0$507$bed6...@news.gradwell.net>,
>> GLF00 <glenluk...@gmail.com.nospam.com> wrote:
>>> One man has a seriously big ego...
>> Ego or not, he has the skills to back it up.
> He will never be a champion unless he can master juggling and humility.
> His ego works against him in this case.
Then you have a different definition of champion than most. I think if
Gatto is anything, he is a "champion juggler".
> I had a non-juggler watch it and
> she said "he is an ego-maniac, i,m sure he is not the best in the world."
> To which I replied,"yeah he probably is the best ,to be completely
> honest." She then said," Well, he sounds like an ass about it anyway."
>
> The babe was love for being a great baseball player and a all around
> great, down-to-earth guy.
There is a huge difference in that mr. Ruth wasn't selling entertainment
and Gatto is. Athletes are good if their results are good, whereas
variety artists are "The Fantastic This" or "The Best That In The World".
I'm not too fond of his public image either, but I think he sees these
videos as marketing, not "just" as juggling videos. And there I
understand why he wants to claim that he's the greatest juggler in the
world (which in many respects he is, no questions about that).
"The Best Juggler In The World" probably sells quite a lot more gigs
than "Look Mum, I made A Juggling Video".
jani
--
My Photographic Diary:
http://www.janikyllonen.com/
aaron gregg
>
> It's called being humble. It's great for your image, and if you keep it
> up long enough, you'll believe it yourself and want to get better.
That's crap. Being humble works for the images of some but not others. The
best loved boxer of all-time was famous for his boasting. Ali bragged
about being the best at beating people up and he was loved by millions.
I'm quite sure he wasn't famous in spite of his boasting but because of it.
From Bono to Kanye West to Andrew Dice Clay, a boastful image can help
people's entertainment careers enormously.
As far as a humble attitude helping you get better. WTF?! Isn't the
conversation about the fact that Gatto has an ego AND is the best juggler?
Sports legends have had big and small egos so I'm not sure if you can draw
much of a relationship.
Humility does not cause success. Ironically, I think one of the keys to
the success of Luke Burrage's (and Pola's too) podcast is his robust ego.
-Aaron
Alan Morgan
Alan Thompson <alct...@indiana.edu.nospam.com> wrote:
>Alan Morgan wrote:
>>
>> In article <47a89f74$0$507$bed6...@news.gradwell.net>,
>> GLF00 <glenluk...@gmail.com.nospam.com> wrote:
>> >jimifun wrote:
>> >>
>> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r005sxNTBYM
>> >>
>> >> could anyone tell me more?
>> >
>> >One man has a seriously big ego...
>>
>> "Girls think I'm snooty. Maybe it's true. With my hair and body, you
>> would be too" - Julie Brown (I'm a Blonde)
>>
>> Ego or not, he has the skills to back it up.
>
Tell it to Maurice Green. No one ever accused him of being humble, but
he was still one of the greatest sprinters ever. Muhammad Ali wasn't
known for being shy and he was, as I recall, pretty darned good as a boxer.
>His ego works against him in this case. I had a non-juggler watch it and
>she said "he is an ego-maniac, i,m sure he is not the best in the world."
>To which I replied,"yeah he probably is the best ,to be completely
>honest." She then said," Well, he sounds like an ass about it anyway."
>
>The babe was love for being a great baseball player and a all around
>great, down-to-earth guy.
OTOH, Ty Cobb was one of the greatest baseball players ever and was, to
be blunt, a complete asshole. He wasn't exactly *loved*, but it didn't
keep him from being a champion.
>The more informed Alan
Watch that ego, Sparky, you might hurt someone with it.
Alan
--
Defendit numerus
ManiacDrew
> Second, following
> MD and others, what actual relationship has there been between top
> jugglers and their perceived self-opinion?
I found that most of the top jugglers had high confidence
that seemed either "overly competitive" or "conceited".
Seeing that, I have decided to claim I am "the best" at
cane freestyle (so far, only in my own mind).
It DOES make me work a lot harder. Makes me feel like I
have to earn and "keep" the title. No harm in that.
Plorel
skills in a certain area. Therefore I think it is nonsense to take away
from Gatto's unique skill and juggling style for ego reasons.
He is the best, or at least most impressive juggler at the moment (skill
related)
However there is in my opinion another problem with having a (big) ego.
The ego depends essentially on the image, we created of ourself. But as
soon as
we (completely) indentify with this image, which is actually only a
accumulation of exchangeable thought and therefore illusive, our
self-esteem inevitably depends on it.
That will inescapably lead to suffering as we always need other people to
confirm what we think we are. If they don't we have a problem. Of course
we can retreat to our thought and keep telling ourselves how brilliant,
good, skillfull, bad or whatever we are, but we can impossibly keep up
this illusion for a long time.
There will always be that nagging feeling inside that tells us we keep
missing sth. At the latest when the things we build our self-image on
deteriorate (as all things will, because all form is fleeting...)
Greetings
Plorel
agedest
> I found that most of the top jugglers had high confidence
> that seemed either "overly competitive" or "conceited".
> Seeing that, I have decided to claim I am "the best" at
> cane freestyle (so far, only in my own mind).
Uhm, in your case, that's easy, having invented it. But if you keep
doing workshops, watch out, fella.
> It DOES make me work a lot harder. Makes me feel like I
> have to earn and "keep" the title. No harm in that.
That's what puzzles me about Gatto: why does he think he has to "sell"
himself and his abilities? His shows, which would be the point to
selling, are not about his being the best, but about his being a
showman. I watched part of GE14 and was not at all impressed in a way
that would make me, if that could concievably be the situation, say
Hey, we gotta book that guy he'll rock their socks we'll make a
million with his act. Why does Anthony, of all people, think he has
to keep puffing himself to make a living, and do so so badly?
ultimatewannabe
>
> Tell it to Maurice Green. No one ever accused him of being humble, but
> he was still one of the greatest sprinters ever. Muhammad Ali wasn't
> known for being shy and he was, as I recall, pretty darned good as a boxer.
Wasn't Maurice Green the one that tattooed the initials GOAT into his arm?
"GOAT" Greatest Of All Time. I like it, subtle but still lets everyone
know there's a very special person in the room.
GLF00
>
> agedest wrote:
> > Second, following
> > MD and others, what actual relationship has there been between top
> > jugglers and their perceived self-opinion?
>
I totally agree that confidence in yourself is necessary to become great
at anything. However, confidence level and ego level are not the same.
If you say "I know I can get this trick" it's not the same as "I bet no
one else could do this trick" which is what Gatto is pretty much saying.
> I found that most of the top jugglers had high confidence
> that seemed either "overly competitive" or "conceited".
>
Really? I haven't noticed this. Perhaps many of the top sport/technical
jugglers have an attitude like this, but even in that arena some of the
best jugglers are nice guys.
Besides, why not let his video speak for itself? If he's really as great
as he (and many of you) think he is, his juggling should be able to show
it without all the hype.
GLF00
>
> Isn't the
> conversation about the fact that Gatto has an ego AND is the best juggler?
>
I'm kind of sick of hearing stuff like "so and so is the best juggler".
You simply cannot say who is the "best juggler" because there is so much
to juggling. Sure, there are things that Gatto can do that others can't,
but in all honesty there are plenty of things that Gatto CAN'T do that
others can, and that's not just because he doesn't care to learn them.
Besides, Gatto claims to be an artist. Artists do not constantly compete
and compare themselves to other artists. Can you imagine Beethoven saying
"I'm so much better than Mozart!"?
GLF00
>
> Isn't the
> conversation about the fact that Gatto has an ego AND is the best juggler?
>
I'm kind of sick of hearing stuff like "so and so is the best juggler".
You simply cannot say who is the "best juggler" because there is so much
to juggling. Sure, there are things that Gatto can do that others can't,
but in all honesty there are plenty of things that Gatto CAN'T do that
others can, and that's not just because he doesn't care to learn them.
Besides, Gatto claims to be an artist. Artists do not constantly compete
and compare themselves to other artists. Can you imagine Beethoven saying
"I'm so much better than Mozart!"?
--
GLF00
>
> agedest wrote:
> > Second, following
> > MD and others, what actual relationship has there been between top
> > jugglers and their perceived self-opinion?
>
I totally agree that confidence in yourself is necessary to become great
at anything. However, confidence level and ego level are not the same.
If you say "I know I can get this trick" it's not the same as "I bet no
one else could do this trick" which is what Gatto is pretty much saying.
> I found that most of the top jugglers had high confidence
> that seemed either "overly competitive" or "conceited".
>
Really? I haven't noticed this. Perhaps many of the top sport/technical
jugglers have an attitude like this, but even in that arena some of the
best jugglers are nice guys.
Besides, why not let his video speak for itself? If he's really as great
as he (and many of you) think he is, his juggling should be able to show
it without all the hype.
GLF00
>
> ManiacDrew wrote:
> >
> > agedest wrote:
> > > Second, following
> > > MD and others, what actual relationship has there been between top
> > > jugglers and their perceived self-opinion?
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> I totally agree that confidence in yourself is necessary to become great
> at anything. However, confidence level and ego level are not the same.
> If you say "I know I can get this trick" it's not the same as "I bet no
> one else could do this trick" which is what Gatto is pretty much saying.
Looks like I quoted the wrong text from agedest (I meant to quote the
following from ManiacDrew).
"I found that most of the top jugglers had high confidence
that seemed either 'overly competitive' or 'conceited'."
--
Alan Morgan
Yup. He probably didn't deserve that title, but he was very, very good
and definitely a character. A big personality seems to be standard issue
for sprinters (Tyson Gay being a notable exception).
Anyhoo, a big ego can keep you from being loved, but it doesn't make you
any less of a champion (unless you, you know, SUCK).
Alan (The Greatest Juggler Over 6 feet tall ever to come out of Reading,
England in the 7th decade of the 20th century)
--
Defendit numerus
Alan Morgan
agedest <ber...@wmconnect.com> wrote:
>ManiacDrew wrote:
>> I found that most of the top jugglers had high confidence
>> that seemed either "overly competitive" or "conceited".
>> Seeing that, I have decided to claim I am "the best" at
>> cane freestyle (so far, only in my own mind).
>
>Uhm, in your case, that's easy, having invented it. But if you keep
>doing workshops, watch out, fella.
>
>> It DOES make me work a lot harder. Makes me feel like I
>> have to earn and "keep" the title. No harm in that.
>
>That's what puzzles me about Gatto: why does he think he has to "sell"
>himself and his abilities?
To earn a living?
>His shows, which would be the point to
>selling, are not about his being the best, but about his being a
>showman.
And part of being a showman is the spectacle. And part of spectacle
is being big and over the top. Are you telling me you'd rather
see/hire "Anthony Gatto" over "Anthony Gatto: The World's Greatest
Juggler"?
Alan
--
Defendit numerus
Daniele Caselli
>
> I'm kind of sick of hearing stuff like "so and so is the best juggler".
> You simply cannot say who is the "best juggler" because there is so much
> to juggling.
And in what Gatto does (every night) he's the best! So that definition,
The world's greatest juggler, is objective right: how many jugglers do
you know who do every night all those tricks that Anthony does (DROPLESS)?
> Sure, there are things that Gatto can do that others can't,
> but in all honesty there are plenty of things that Gatto CAN'T do that
> others can, and that's not just because he doesn't care to learn them.
So why all these professional jugglers didn't win any of the dozens of
prizes that Gatto won?
Why is he still the only juggler to win the International Circus
Festival of Montecarlo (2000), while people like
Dick Franco (1980),
Kris Kremo (1981),
Serguei Ignatov (1983),
Picaso Junior (2002) and
Viktor Kee (2003)
take the second place?
Weren't they perhaps the best in what they do and that Gatto can't do?
> Besides, Gatto claims to be an artist. Artists do not constantly compete
> and compare themselves to other artists.
Gatto claims to be the greatest juggler in the world, but juggling is just
a component of his artistic show, the main component but not the only one:
I've seen his show in Munich last year and I've never seen so much energy,
control and stage presence in a juggling show!
Daniele
GLF00
>
> And in what Gatto does (every night) he's the best! So that definition,
> The world's greatest juggler, is objective right: how many jugglers do
> you know who do every night all those tricks that Anthony does (DROPLESS)?
Why exactly does what AG does that other can't do make him the "world's
best" but what others do that he can't do is just "their specialty"? Is
it because people like watching his style better than other styles? If so
you still can't say he's the best, because it's just your preference for
his style.
> So why all these professional jugglers didn't win any of the dozens of
> prizes that Gatto won?
> Why is he still the only juggler to win the International Circus
> Festival of Montecarlo (2000), while people like
> Dick Franco (1980),
> Kris Kremo (1981),
> Serguei Ignatov (1983),
> Picaso Junior (2002) and
> Viktor Kee (2003)
> take the second place?
>
> Weren't they perhaps the best in what they do and that Gatto can't do?
I think you and I are talking about different things. I am refering to
"jugglers". You are refering to "professional jugglers", which in most
peoples definition (seemingly yours as well) is the same as "entertainer".
I could care less how much money someone makes by performing. To me,
it's the juggling skill and how you express yourself through that skill
that matters. If you want to focus on making money with your juggling
that's fine, but don't claim to be the "worlds best juggler" or say that
entertaining is the only "true reason" to juggle.
Besides, the "Golden Clown Award" he's so proud of doesn't prove anything
about his juggling ability; just about his entertaining ability. The
Montecarlo competition isn't even against other jugglers; it's against
other circus acts.
> Gatto claims to be the greatest juggler in the world, but juggling is just
> a component of his artistic show, the main component but not the only one:
> I've seen his show in Munich last year and I've never seen so much energy,
> control and stage presence in a juggling show!
>
> Daniele
>
Was music just one component of Beethoven's art? Was painting just one
component of Leonardo de Vince's art? I must disagree with your
definition of an artistic juggler.
GLF00
>
> And part of being a showman is the spectacle. And part of spectacle
> is being big and over the top. Are you telling me you'd rather
> see/hire "Anthony Gatto" over "Anthony Gatto: The World's Greatest
> Juggler"?
>
> Alan
Is he trying to sell GE 14 to his non-juggling costomers or to jugglers
who probably already know his abilities?
aaron gregg
> >
> Besides, why not let his video speak for itself? If he's really as great
> as he (and many of you) think he is, his juggling should be able to show
> it without all the hype.
Apparently you've never heard of the concept of advertising.
-Aaron Gregg (holder of the 25th greatest world record of all time -
seriously)
aaron gregg
>
> I think you and I are talking about different things. I am refering to
> "jugglers". You are refering to "professional jugglers", which in most
> peoples definition (seemingly yours as well) is the same as "entertainer".
> I could care less how much money someone makes by performing. To me,
> it's the juggling skill and how you express yourself through that skill
> that matters. If you want to focus on making money with your juggling
> that's fine, but don't claim to be the "worlds best juggler" or say that
> entertaining is the only "true reason" to juggle.
You started this whole semantics issue. It really is quite frustrating
that a simple assertion about Gatto's place in the juggling world results
in a bunch of silly posts about how to measure "juggling." If it would
allow you to sleep at night I'd love to go back to my original post and
put the word "technical" between best and juggler. Oh the limitations of
USENET.
Just for fun let's get all semantic. For you it's important "how you
express yourself through the skill." Wouldn't that be called performing?
> Besides, the "Golden Clown Award" he's so proud of doesn't prove anything
> about his juggling ability; just about his entertaining ability.
Surely you could say he was judged on his performing ability. You know,
how he expressed himself through his juggling skill.
> The
> Montecarlo competition isn't even against other jugglers; it's against
> other circus acts.
It's against other circus acts, which includes other jugglers. They use
the Kappell (sp?) system which rewards acts based on a fixed set of
criteria from year to year. This allows you to compare acts from
different years, effectively allowing one to say that Anthony is better at
expressing himself through jugging that anyone else who has taken part in
the competition.
> Was music just one component of Beethoven's art? Was painting just one
> component of Leonardo de Vince's art?
Is making ridiculous comparison's just one part of your art?
> I must disagree with your
> definition of an artistic juggler.
You'd probably disagree with Daniele's definition of the number three.
In my mind the world's greatest juggler is Dan Holzman. For me the reason
for juggling is to make people laugh through your manipulation and
discussion of props. I however, don't go around arguing with people who
don't hold that same definition. Why, because it's not really important.
Just out of curiosity GLF00, who do you think is particularly good at
"expressing themselves through the skill of juggling?"
-Aaron
MartinQ
>
> Just out of curiosity GLF00, who do you think is particularly good at
> "expressing themselves through the skill of juggling?"
>
Without doubt!
Alan Thompson
his personality and humor ,not his ego which he played off as big but he
admits latter was all in jest. He was funny and a real people person.
Your other example are completely irrelevant and can be wipped away with
the thinest kleenex.
Micheal Jordan
Lance armstrong
Nolan Ryan
Wayne Gretzky
Andre Agassi
Ask any of them if they were or have ever been the best.
its called being loved for being amazing and modest.
Alan Thompson
If Gatto wants to be called the best then he admits that it is a
competition(sport) and not an art. You can't be the best artist. That is
a completely misinformed statement. Dictionary it before you respond.
Alan Thompson
> Watch that ego, Sparky, you might hurt someone with it.
>
> Alan
Thus my point is proven.... and you are wrong. Gatto may be the best, but
I still dislike him. Gee I wander why?. Get back to me when you know
what you are talking about.
Still more informed
ultimatewannabe
> how you express yourself through that skill
I once walked past a bulletin board explaining the underprivledged groups
in my dorms that had two sentences you have reminded me of.
"Blacks are under privileged because they cannot buy bandaids that match
their skin tone."
"Men can act aggressively without the fear of being called a bitch."
Your statement on expression yourself through a skill has something very
much in common with these two statements in my perception. I can't even
begin to fathom the confusion of concepts that led to these conclusions.
It's absolutely outrageous.
What the fuck?? Do you listen to yourself talk? I've watch thousands of
videos and seen hundreds of performances in the last 3 years since I've
been obsessed with juggling. I have never seen, or spoken to anyone who
has ever witnessed, someone "express themselves through [juggling]". No
one to my knowledge has ever walked up to a friend and thrown 3 left hand
triple spin backcrosses to which the friend reacted with "oh he's hungry,
we should order pizza." No one has ever done mills mess at someone who
responded "Oh he's angry at his ex who he caught with another man."
We have a method to express ourselves with. I call it language. It has
almost nothing in common with the practice of juggling.
ManiacDrew
I don't think you thought your logic all the way through.
Better luck next time.
MD
ManiacDrew
>
> ManiacDrew wrote:
> > I found that most of the top jugglers had high confidence
> > that seemed either "overly competitive" or "conceited".
> > Seeing that, I have decided to claim I am "the best" at
> > cane freestyle (so far, only in my own mind).
>
> Uhm, in your case, that's easy, having invented it. But if you keep
> doing workshops, watch out, fella.
I just coined the term.
Other people manipulate canes in a variety of ways.
You can even find Ragatz doing "cane freestyle".
> > It DOES make me work a lot harder. Makes me feel like I
> > have to earn and "keep" the title. No harm in that.
>
> Why does Anthony, of all people, think he has
> to keep puffing himself to make a living, and do so so badly?
1. I agree that he promotes himself "badly"
2. I think Gatto should be able to puff himself up.
The bigger question is why do people feel the need
to post and "knock him down"?
MD
Some personalities are resevered. Some aren't.
In the performance community, the minority hae "reserved" personalities.
ManiacDrew
> Besides, why not let his video speak for itself? If he's really as great
> as he (and many of you) think he is, his juggling should be able to show
> it without all the hype.
INCORRECT!
Non-jugglers (and new or "out of the loop" jugglers) may not know he is the
best tech juggler. I, for one, do not think I can name all of the tricks he
does in that clip.
MD
ManiacDrew
So?
Are you saying you'd like Gatto to behave differently so that he doesn't
"harm himself". That's ghey. You could say the same thing to anyone who
juggles "obsessively" (a hour a day or more).
MD
fettucinibro
I've watch thousands of
> videos and seen hundreds of performances in the last 3 years since I've
> been obsessed with juggling. I have never seen, or spoken to anyone who
> has ever witnessed, someone "express themselves through [juggling]". No
> one to my knowledge has ever walked up to a friend and thrown 3 left hand
> triple spin backcrosses to which the friend reacted with "oh he's hungry,
> we should order pizza." No one has ever done mills mess at someone who
> responded "Oh he's angry at his ex who he caught with another man."
>
> We have a method to express ourselves with. I call it language. It has
> almost nothing in common with the practice of juggling.
>
Dear Ultimatewannabe,
Be careful you are letting your intelligence (or lack of) show...
You have a very small and limited scope in what you consider
"communication" is
Language is only one of the very small ways that we communicate. Probably
the smallest. I took a
performance workshop one time, and I forget what the exact ratio is, but
the majority of what and
how we communicate with each other is non verbal. Go figure...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonverbal_communication
I may have you topped, just a little bit, with time spent obsessing with
juggling and watching videos.
I've actually made my living as a juggler for over 20 years, and was a
hobby juggler for about 6 years
before that. A fact that you also seem to have missed, is that sometimes
the thoughts communicated
throught art or performance can be simple... expressions of feeling...
happiness, joy, sadness, ect.
Speaking for myself (who has literally deacades of exposure to juggling
acts and tons of videos) I have
seen juggling acts coomunicate feeling and emotions more times that I care
to explain. But, of course,
maybe my mind is a little more open to these things...
Of course no one would ever care to use juggling to say "oh I'm hungry, we
should order pizza." That's
just silly, and actually demonstrates your lack of understanding of both
performance and
communcation. Duh?...
Respectfully,
AL
Daniele Caselli
>
> If Gatto wants to be called the best then he admits that it is a
> competition(sport) and not an art. You can't be the best artist. That is
> a completely misinformed statement. Dictionary it before you respond.
Gatto thinks that juggling can be split up in two logic areas:
sport juggling and artistic juggling (it's not my thought at this
regard: he puts a "sport juggling" section on his forum!).
And for many years he has taken part to juggling conventions
just to demonstrate how he was good in sport juggling.
But it's a fact that juggling, expecially technical juggling,
needs a continuous practice as well as all the sports.
Gatto has never claimed to be the world's greatest *artistic*
juggler, but he claims to be the world's greatest juggler, and
in this definition you have to consider both areas: artistic
and sport juggling.
In the sport juggling Gatto has no rivals in so many tricks,
moves or what you want, that all the stuff that GLF00 cited
that Gatto can't do is immeasurably minor.
Take for example the scandinavian guys (even Wanvik), as an
example of *artistic juggler*:
they are good with balls, with clubs and with rings, and
sometimes with 2 of these props at the same time...
Gatto is really good with balls, rings, clubs, head balancing
while juggling, head bouncing while juggling and he has
worked with other "classic" stuff like ping pong mouth
juggling.
All the stuff he does is solider and cleaner than all those
scandinavian jugglers together, in their respective ambits
of "research".
Daniele
Dave Tayleur
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r005sxNTBYM
>
> could anyone tell me more?
>
>
Sorry to be a bit cheeky, especially as i don't feel you deserve quite all
the flack that you get, but are you on holiday Dave Altman???
ManiacDrew
>
> Sorry to be a bit cheeky, especially as i don't feel you deserve quite all
> the flack that you get, but are you on holiday Dave Altman???
Please don't summon him.
We know his point of view on this.
MD
GLF00
>
>
>
> Just for fun let's get all semantic. For you it's important "how you
> express yourself through the skill." Wouldn't that be called performing?
Not really. When you are performing you have an audience. You don't have
to have an audience around to express yourself.
> Surely you could say he was judged on his performing ability. You know,
> how he expressed himself through his juggling skill.
Actually, no. Again, this goes back to your definition of expressing
yourself through juggling.
> > The
> > Montecarlo competition isn't even against other jugglers; it's against
> > other circus acts.
>
> It's against other circus acts, which includes other jugglers. They use
> the Kappell (sp?) system which rewards acts based on a fixed set of
> criteria from year to year. This allows you to compare acts from
> different years, effectively allowing one to say that Anthony is better at
> expressing himself through jugging that anyone else who has taken part in
> the competition.
Once again, it judged his ability to entertain the judges better than any
of the other jugglers.
>
> Is making ridiculous comparison's just one part of your art?
>
Please explain why you think my comparisons are ridiculous. I always
appreciate when someone gives reasons for beleiving something rather than
just making an unproven statement and expecting it to be accepted as
truth.
> You'd probably disagree with Daniele's definition of the number three.
>
Actually I wouldn't, because the definition of a number (such as three) is
not subjective.
> In my mind the world's greatest juggler is Dan Holzman. For me the reason
> for juggling is to make people laugh through your manipulation and
> discussion of props. I however, don't go around arguing with people who
> don't hold that same definition. Why, because it's not really important.
I didn't want to argue either; I just made what I thought was a funny
comment (one man has a seriously big ego) and 95 percent of rec. jumps
onboard to defend Gatto.
> Just out of curiosity GLF00, who do you think is particularly good at
> "expressing themselves through the skill of juggling?"
>
> -Aaron
>
Jay Gilligan, Michael Karas, Sean Mckinney, Sean Blue, Kati Yla-Hokkala
and Luke Wilson are some good examples.
BTW Aaron, feel free to call me Glen Luke rather than GLF00. Calling each
other by our real names might help us to feel a bit more friendly as we
tear each other apart over the internet. ;-)
GLF00
>
> I've watch thousands of
> videos and seen hundreds of performances in the last 3 years since I've
> been obsessed with juggling. I have never seen, or spoken to anyone who
> has ever witnessed, someone "express themselves through [juggling]". No
> one to my knowledge has ever walked up to a friend and thrown 3 left hand
> triple spin backcrosses to which the friend reacted with "oh he's hungry,
> we should order pizza." No one has ever done mills mess at someone who
> responded "Oh he's angry at his ex who he caught with another man."
>
> We have a method to express ourselves with. I call it language. It has
> almost nothing in common with the practice of juggling.
>
Of course juggling will not express something like "I'm hungry". However,
it does have the same ability to express emotion as arts such as dance.
If you deny the expressional abilites of the classical arts then I have
nothing more to say to you.
Daniele Caselli
>
> Dave Tayleur wrote:
> >
> > Sorry to be a bit cheeky, especially as i don't feel you deserve quite all
> > the flack that you get, but are you on holiday Dave Altman???
>
>
> Please don't summon him.
> We know his point of view on this.
You don't like that strange wording
"freedom of thought", don't you? :)
Daniele
GLF00
>
> ManiacDrew wrote:
> >
> > Dave Tayleur wrote:
> > >
> > > Sorry to be a bit cheeky, especially as i don't feel you deserve quite
all
> > > the flack that you get, but are you on holiday Dave Altman???
> >
> >
> > Please don't summon him.
> > We know his point of view on this.
>
> You don't like that strange wording
> "freedom of thought", don't you? :)
>
> Daniele
>
If you support freedom of thought (and speech) then you should admit
that I have the right to say that Gatto is not the greatest. Certainly
you don't have to agree with me, but you have to admit that I have that
right.
Besides, I find it strange to hear someone bringing up "freedom of
thought" in support of views that are exactly what AG, Dave Altman, Dick
Franco, etc. have already repeated over and over in other places. I kind
of think that it's just the "standard view" of the Gatto worshipers.
GLF00
>
>
> In the sport juggling Gatto has no rivals in so many tricks,
> moves or what you want, that all the stuff that GLF00 cited
> that Gatto can't do is immeasurably minor.
Are you saying that the things Vova Galchenko, Sean Mckinney, and many
others can do that Gatto can't is minor? Gatto may have a lot of tricks
that he's good at, but once again, there are many tricks he isn't so good
at. Why do his tricks make him the best?
> Take for example the scandinavian guys (even Wanvik), as an
> example of *artistic juggler*:
> they are good with balls, with clubs and with rings, and
> sometimes with 2 of these props at the same time...
> Gatto is really good with balls, rings, clubs, head balancing
> while juggling, head bouncing while juggling and he has
> worked with other "classic" stuff like ping pong mouth
> juggling.
> All the stuff he does is solider and cleaner than all those
> scandinavian jugglers together, in their respective ambits
> of "research".
>
> Daniele
>
Why does the amount of props you are good at affect your claim to be
"the best juggler"? If that's the case than one of the variety guys would
be the best, not a specialist who only does, say, balls (such as Grisha
Lovigan).
The reason some of Gatto's stuff is cleaner than the contemporary
Scandinavian research is because he's been doing the same stuff for years.
Their research is new and cutting edge.
Since you brought up "sport juggling" scene lets take some examples
from there as well as the nordic scene. Vova has done lots of club tricks
that Gatto can't do, particularly with pirouettes. Alexander Koblikov is
much better at multiplex juggling than Gatto. You see? Every juggler
should have his specialty. Gatto is very good at his specialty. I'm even
willing to admit that there might be certain individual tricks that he is
the best at. But he is not the best juggler, because there is not such
thing as the "best juggler".
Dave Altman
> Sorry to be a bit cheeky, especially as i don't feel you deserve quite all
> the flack that you get, but are you on holiday Dave Altman???
Hi Dave, on the contrary, I've been busy. I'm still reading, though.
Thanks for your support. Dispite what the maniac and Glen Luke say, I do
not worship Anthony, I just happen to like the guy and admire his skills.
He probably doesn't deserve the amount of flack he gets or the amount of
praise that some people put on him, either. I imagine that both are hard
to deal with.
I think some people are confusing normal showbiz promotion for egomania.
In my personal dealings with him, he's a regular Joe and a nice guy.
GLF00
> Dispite what the maniac and Glen Luke say, I do
> not worship Anthony, I just happen to like the guy and admire his skills.
>
>
Hey Dave, I hope you didn't think I was making a personal dig at you. I
do think that some people carry their admiration of AG to an extreme,
hence the term "Gatto worshipers". I also think that you carry your
defense of him to the extreme, therefore I listed your name. However, you
seem like a nice guy from all of our past dealings, so I wasn't trying to
insult you.
bill coad
Couldn't you have expressed all that with just a single site swap number?
As for egos, I took a week long workshop taught by Anthony and did not
note much about an ego whereas I can't say the same for others while
teaching their workshops. Maybe it's only how his ego shows in his
marketing that some are focused on here.
Guillermo Conde
> >
>
> Why does the amount of props you are good at affect your claim to be
> "the best juggler"? If that's the case than one of the variety guys would
> be the best, not a specialist who only does, say, balls (such as Grisha
> Lovigan).
> The reason some of Gatto's stuff is cleaner than the contemporary
> Scandinavian research is because he's been doing the same stuff for years.
> Their research is new and cutting edge.
> Since you brought up "sport juggling" scene lets take some examples
> from there as well as the nordic scene. Vova has done lots of club tricks
> that Gatto can't do, particularly with pirouettes. Alexander Koblikov is
> much better at multiplex juggling than Gatto. You see? Every juggler
> should have his specialty. Gatto is very good at his specialty. I'm even
> willing to admit that there might be certain individual tricks that he is
> the best at. But he is not the best juggler, because there is not such
> thing as the "best juggler".
>
>
>
>
can: If There was an "universal juggling championship" and we had to choose
only ONE juggler to represent our planet, who do you think that would be the
chosen one?
Would there be or not a "best juggler"? Tell me if I'm wrong.
Guillermo Conde
GLF00
>
>
> Ok, let's finish with this endless argument. You, GLF00, tell us, if you
> can: If There was an "universal juggling championship" and we had to choose
> only ONE juggler to represent our planet, who do you think that would be the
> chosen one?
> Would there be or not a "best juggler"? Tell me if I'm wrong.
>
> Guillermo Conde
>
>
>
Actually, I'm not that into juggling competitions. I like to watch the
IJA competitions because there are some great routines in there, and I
like the Individual prop competitions because they are more specialized,
but how do you judge art? I'd be just as happy watching the competitions
if it were a show rather than a competition. So, I wouldn't agree with
having a universal juggling competition, much less picking one juggler as
"the best juggler on planet Earth".
But, I agree with you that we should end the argument. If we can all just
agree to disagree, I'll let it go. However, if people still continue to
challenge my right to think differently, and continue to try to refute my
opinions I'll respond.
popstar_dave
>
> "The Best Juggler In The World" probably sells quite a lot more gigs
> than "Look Mum, I made A Juggling Video".
>
True, dat.
Dave
...http://www.juggling.tv/vaults/view_video.php?viewkey=1e6d8cd7b905f4e1bf72
ManiacDrew
>
> ManiacDrew wrote:
> >
> > Dave Tayleur wrote:
> > >
> > > Sorry to be a bit cheeky, especially as i don't feel you deserve quite
all
> > > the flack that you get, but are you on holiday Dave Altman???
> >
> >
> > Please don't summon him.
> > We know his point of view on this.
>
> You don't like that strange wording
> "freedom of thought", don't you? :)
>
> Daniele
You're thinking that someone repeating themselves over and over is "free"?
I like freethinking. Your grammar in this post, however, not so much.
MD
ManiacDrew
> If you support freedom of thought (and speech) then you should admit
> that I have the right to say that Gatto is not the greatest. Certainly
> you don't have to agree with me, but you have to admit that I have that
> right.
> Besides, I find it strange to hear someone bringing up "freedom of
> thought" in support of views that are exactly what AG, Dave Altman, Dick
> Franco, etc. have already repeated over and over in other places. I kind
> of think that it's just the "standard view" of the Gatto worshipers.
This.
MD
ManiacDrew
>
> Anthony, I just happen to like the guy and admire his skills.
Exactly what we thought we'd see.
Nothing to see here folks, move on.
MD
Daniele Caselli
> You're thinking that someone repeating themselves over and over is "free"?
> I like freethinking. Your grammar in this post, however, not so much.
Drew your poking fun at me for a mistake I did with a non native language
makes you really credible!
Daniele
Daniele Caselli
> If you support freedom of thought (and speech) then you should admit
> that I have the right to say that Gatto is not the greatest.
In fact you do have that right! But this is a newsgroup, so I (and Dave)
have the right to reply to your subjective point of view.
Daniele
Daniele Caselli
> Are you saying that the things Vova Galchenko, Sean Mckinney, and many
> Vova has done lots of club tricks that Gatto can't do,
> particularly with pirouettes.
Do you really think that Gatto could never do a 753 backcross
pirouette etc...?
And I'm not saying that Vova won't learn a lot of tricks that Gatto does,
but I'm saying that the Gatto's learning time is still faster than Vova's.
> Why does the amount of props you are good at affect your claim to be
> "the best juggler"?
If not the amount of props which you're good at, what's a valid way
for you to try to classify juggling ability?
> If that's the case than one of the variety guys would
> be the best, not a specialist who only does, say, balls (such as Grisha
> Lovigan).
Incorrect: you have to be really good with all these props, not just
"quite" good.
> The reason some of Gatto's stuff is cleaner than the contemporary
> Scandinavian research is because he's been doing the same stuff for years.
> Their research is new and cutting edge.
Same stuff like 3 qualify of 8 clubs in 2 hours?
Really feasible stuff!
> Since you brought up "sport juggling" scene lets take some examples
> from there as well as the nordic scene. Vova has done lots of club tricks
> that Gatto can't do, particularly with pirouettes. Alexander Koblikov is
> much better at multiplex juggling than Gatto. You see? Every juggler
> should have his specialty.
Of course! But Vova is really good with clubs and good with balls: stop!
Koblikov is really good with balls: stop!
> Gatto is very good at his specialty.
That are more than Vova's ones...
> there is not such thing as the "best juggler".
Evidently you can split juggling in "artistic" and "sport",
this is the main difference between us.
Dave Altman
>
> Dave Altman wrote:
> >
> > Anthony, I just happen to like the guy and admire his skills.
>
> Exactly what we thought we'd see.
> Nothing to see here folks, move on.
>
> MD
Bug off! You are an ass! You have posted eleven times on this thread, most
of which I agree with, but regardless, I've posted once. Besides being a
maniac, what gives you the right to decide on who gets to post on what? Do
you want to be Anthony Gatto's number one defender and resent me for
invading your territory? Go ahead and piss on your computer to mark your
territory.
I know I've said this before, too, in fact, your response is nothing new
either. Really, I don't see what your problem is with my posts. If you
want new stuff all the time, quit reading rec.juggling, 90% of it is
repeated material.
Luke Burrage
>
> Dave Altman wrote:
> >
> > Anthony, I just happen to like the guy and admire his skills.
>
> Exactly what we thought we'd see.
> Nothing to see here folks, move on.
>
I agree with Dave here, you are being a bit harsh. Dave replied to a post
that directly mentioned him and wondered what his opinion was. I don't
think that warrents anyone knocking him down for posting.
Luke
fettucinibro
>
> Dave Altman wrote:
> >
> > Anthony, I just happen to like the guy and admire his skills.
>
> Exactly what we thought we'd see.
> Nothing to see here folks, move on.
>
> MD
>
It was very quick dismissal of Dave's opinion and post...
Come on Drew... you gotta admit that.
AL
Guillermo Conde
In this case, I would like to say that I agree that we'll never agree,
because you are never going to change what we think (this is, gatto is the
best), the same way neither me, nor any other guy posting here is going to
change your opinions (Gatto isn't the best), no matter what we can say or
reason. People just don't change the way they (we) think, it's as simple
as that. This is why I think we should stop this before this thread
becomes a new "the fall of the Gatto forum", you know what I mean.
And that makes me wonder one thing, and this goes for everybody: Why does
every thread about Gatto become so long, and, why not, useless? Look at
the thread "The fall of the Gatto forum" as an example; what was a simple
post about his website became as the longest thread ever, full of angry
and endless arguments about every aspect of Anthony's life, career,
skills, etc (pointing out -Does that expression exist?- the fight "Vasili
vs the world" about who was better with clubs, if Anthony or Vova). I
admit this kind of threads can be very interesting, but, if you think
about it, it isn't actually that important. Defending Gatto's skills won't
make us better jugglers, happier or anything, and to let others say he is
not the best wont make him be a worse juggler. So... In conclusion,
errr... Well, I think I'm going out to juggle, which is what I really
like. Have a nice day.
Guillermo conde
ManiacDrew
>
> ManiacDrew wrote:
> >
> > Dave Altman wrote:
> > >
> > > Anthony, I just happen to like the guy and admire his skills.
> >
> > Exactly what we thought we'd see.
> > Nothing to see here folks, move on.
> >
> > MD
>
> Bug off!
>
> either. Really, I don't see what your problem is with my posts.
>
No way.
If you can be in extreme support of Gatto to the point where I question
your sexuality, then I can feel free to mock you each time. Moderate me.
MD
P.S.
If you're going to reference "maniac", at least look it up and know all of
the meanings. :) Like me, you clearly qualify for one of the definitions.
ManiacDrew
>
> It was very quick dismissal of Dave's opinion and post...
> Come on Drew... you gotta admit that.
> AL
You are correct.
MD
Miika
> aaron gregg wrote:
> > You'd probably disagree with Daniele's definition of the number three.
>
> Actually I wouldn't, because the definition of a number (such as three) is
> not subjective.
There are many ways to define numbers and they don't all result in the
same abstract objects. It's a subjective opinion which one is the best.
> BTW Aaron, feel free to call me Glen Luke rather than GLF00. Calling each
> other by our real names might help us to feel a bit more friendly as we
> tear each other apart over the internet. ;-)
So you can call yourself GLF00, but the rest of us have to remember that
you're really Glen Luke. Ok, maybe that makes sense by some definition.
-Miika
--
(btw, tämä on yhdeksäskymmenestoinen viestini tässä uutisryhmässä)
aaron gregg
>
> aaron gregg wrote:
> >
> > "expressing themselves through the skill of juggling?"
> >
> > -Aaron
> >
> Jay Gilligan, Michael Karas, Sean Mckinney, Sean Blue, Kati Yla-Hokkala
> and Luke Wilson are some good examples.
>
I have to admit, I was really hoping you would say Jay Gilligan so that I
could you this quote from his blog (in reference to Gatto):
"...and anyway for sure I enjoy seeing the world’s best juggler ever have
a little fun now and then. "
Perhaps you should tell Jay how much you hate people saying "world's best
juggler."
-Aaron
GLF00
>
>
>
> So you can call yourself GLF00, but the rest of us have to remember that
> you're really Glen Luke. Ok, maybe that makes sense by some definition.
>
>
> -Miika
>
>
> --
>
Actually, I just gave Aaron permission to call me Glen Luke. To you it's
still GLF00.
GLF00
>
>
>
> I have to admit, I was really hoping you would say Jay Gilligan so that I
> could you this quote from his blog (in reference to Gatto):
>
> "...and anyway for sure I enjoy seeing the world’s best juggler ever have
> a little fun now and then. "
>
> Perhaps you should tell Jay how much you hate people saying "world's best
> juggler."
>
> -Aaron
>
I have a lot more respect for Jay than I do for most of the rec. jugglers,
so even if I do disagree with him on some things I can at least feel sure
that he has thought out the reasons he believes something.
And you still didn't answer the rest of my post.
agedest
> ... This is why I think we should stop this before this thread
Don't blame me, Guy, I did my best, by posting. Maybe another try....
-
Dave Altman
>
> Dave Altman wrote:
> No way.
OK, I guess. Everyone needs an asshole. I didn't think mine would spin
canes, though.
Dave Tayleur
>
> ManiacDrew wrote:
> >
> > Dave Altman wrote:
> > > Bug off!
>
> > No way.
>
> OK, I guess. Everyone needs an asshole. I didn't think mine would spin
> canes, though.
>
have for arguments sake,
D
GLF00
>
>
> Do you really think that Gatto could never do a 753 backcross
> pirouette etc...?
That's not really one of the tricks I was referring to. I think the
correct terminology would be "97500 bxx pirouette", and yes, I think that
Gatto could do that. I'm thinking more along the lines of a 5 club 5up 2
stage 1080.
>
> And I'm not saying that Vova won't learn a lot of tricks that Gatto does,
> but I'm saying that the Gatto's learning time is still faster than Vova's.
>
Gatto may have progressed faster than Vova did at a young age (say 8-14)
but I think later on (16-20) Vova has been progressing faster, or at least
as fast. Keep in mind that Vova is now doing much of the stuff Gatto is
also doing, and Vova is something like 17 years younger than Gatto.
>
> If not the amount of props which you're good at, what's a valid way
> for you to try to classify juggling ability?
How about how good you are with the prop(s) you do?
>
Dave Altman
> My apologies for bringing up your name Dave, it appears that i shouldn't
> have for arguments sake,
No need to apologize, Dave, you aren't responsible for me having an on
line stalker. Maniacs will be maniacs. I'll just ignore him from now on.
aaron gregg
>
> aaron gregg wrote:
> >
> comment (one man has a seriously big ego) and 95 percent of rec. jumps
> onboard to defend Gatto.
You're wrong!
In my first post on this subject I acknowledge Gatto's ego. What you
ARGUED was my use of the phrase "best juggler in the world."
Either you're winding me up or you are an idiot.
-Aaron
aaron gregg
>
> aaron gregg wrote:
> >
> > I have to admit, I was really hoping you would say Jay Gilligan so that I
> > could you this quote from his blog (in reference to Gatto):
> >
> > "...and anyway for sure I enjoy seeing the world’s best juggler ever have
> > a little fun now and then. "
> >
> > Perhaps you should tell Jay how much you hate people saying "world's best
> > juggler."
> >
> > -Aaron
> >
>
> I have a lot more respect for Jay than I do for most of the rec. jugglers,
> so even if I do disagree with him on some things I can at least feel sure
> that he has thought out the reasons he believes something.
serve as my newsgroup posts. In future I will only speak using quotes
from celebrity artistic jugglers. Consequently, I feel obliged to present
the following quote from the XWJF website:
"And before anyone brings up the inconvenient problem of someone else
actually being the best juggler in the world, let us remind you: Wilson
has NEVER been beaten in competition by Anthony Gatto."
-Aaron (who is simultaneously caressing and violating the newsgroup)
aaron gregg
>
> But, I agree with you that we should end the argument. If we can all just
> agree to disagree, I'll let it go. However, if people still continue to
> challenge my right to think differently, and continue to try to refute my
> opinions I'll respond.
Sure we can disagree, but please agree that this whole region of the
thread started because you disagreed with my right to say Gatto is the
world's best juggler. You seem to be confused about what's going on.
Glen Luke, you are an example of the tool that screws rec.juggling.
-Aaron (who admits he's now having a bit of fun with this)
ManiacDrew
>
> Dave Tayleur wrote:
> > My apologies for bringing up your name Dave, it appears that i shouldn't
> > have for arguments sake,
>
> No need to apologize, Dave, you aren't responsible for me having an on
> line stalker. Maniacs will be maniacs. I'll just ignore him from now on.
>
Thanks.
MD
ManiacDrew
> Gatto may have progressed faster than Vova did at a young age (say 8-14)
> but I think later on (16-20) Vova has been progressing faster, or at least
> as fast. Keep in mind that Vova is now doing much of the stuff Gatto is
> also doing, and Vova is something like 17 years younger than Gatto.
Good point.
MD
ManiacDrew
> And that makes me wonder one thing, and this goes for everybody: Why does
> every thread about Gatto become so long, and, why not, useless? Look at
> the thread "The fall of the Gatto forum" as an example; what was a simple
> post about his website became as the longest thread ever, full of angry
> and endless arguments about every aspect of Anthony's life, career,
> skills, etc (pointing out -Does that expression exist?- the fight "Vasili
> vs the world" about who was better with clubs, if Anthony or Vova).
>
I think it's because Gatto has a few extreme fans.
Another question:
Why do these types of threads usually mention Vova, and not Diez?
(I'd really like to know, considering Diez wins the WJF comps).
MD
Harm1
>
> Daniele Caselli wrote:
> > If not the amount of props which you're good at, what's a valid way
> > for you to try to classify juggling ability?
>
> How about how good you are with the prop(s) you do?
Interesting, following that method I believe Gatto would be classified as
the best juggler. Let's try to roughly estimate this for Gatto and Vova:
Clubs: Gatto = Vova
Gatto can't do the 2 stage 1080, Vova can't qualify 8 clubs some people
think Vova's better with clubs, some people think Gatto's better let's say
they're about equal.
Rings: Gatto > Vova
I don't think many people will disagree on this. I don't think we'll see
Vova doing 11 rings in performance anytime soon.
Balls: Gatto > Vova
Of course you can argue otherwise, but I'd say Gatto is slightly better at
balls then Vova.
Even if you'd say Gatto = Vova with balls that'd still leave Gatto being
better at juggling then Vova over these props. Note that I didn't take
into account less popular forms on juggling such as juggling with a ball
bounce, balance, on a unicycle, while playing piano, with soccer balls,
torches and so on. If I did, I don't think the outcome would change much.
Harm
Little Paul
>
> Either you're winding me up or you are an idiot.
You know, I don't think that's an "exclusive or" - I think it's more than
possible that he's both winding you up and an idiot.
-Paul
It's 10:44am. I have been awake for 7 hours and 44 minutes.
Daniele Caselli
>
> Daniele Caselli wrote:
> >
> >
> > Do you really think that Gatto could never do a 753 backcross
> > pirouette etc...?
>
> That's not really one of the tricks I was referring to. I think the
> correct terminology would be "97500 bxx pirouette",
Ops you're right: my stupid fault!
> I'm thinking more along the lines of a 5 club 5up 2
> stage 1080.
Why don't you ask him on his forum? Sometimes he considers trick requests
(i'm assuming that he can do this trick)
> Gatto may have progressed faster than Vova did at a young age (say 8-14)
> but I think later on (16-20) Vova has been progressing faster, or at least
> as fast. Keep in mind that Vova is now doing much of the stuff Gatto is
> also doing, and Vova is something like 17 years younger than Gatto.
This is true Glen Luke, but with how many props Glen Luke? 1!
What about the other 2?
> > If not the amount of props which you're good at, what's a valid way
> > for you to try to classify juggling ability?
>
> How about how good you are with the prop(s) you do?
Uhm? I didn't understand why you said that... Please explain me.
Daniele
Daniele Caselli
> Why do these types of threads usually mention Vova, and not Diez?
> (I'd really like to know, considering Diez wins the WJF comps).
Drew this is not the first time that you type his name wrongly:
DieTz, Thomas DieTz!
My english is horrible, but I like to pay attention to
other's name ;)
Daniele
P.S.: I've got no answer for your question, but I was wondering
the same thing.
agedest
YouTube (only) of anyone doing that, I would very much appreciate that
link. Chris Fowler has a video of him doing a single turn to 1080 --
and continuing the pattern, hooray. Having studied pirouettes
extensively, from the YouTubes I've seen of Anthony and Vova, Anthony
is, shall we say, not good in general; while Vova is one of the best
out there and has been since teaching himself as a kid. Piro's have
become a /sine qua non/ for WJF scoring, even though Garfield is also,
shall we say, not good in general even though he then contaminates
others by presuming to teach how to do them (as badly as he has?). If
Garfield has finally managed a single 540 and has that on a YouTube,
again please let me know.
For this "discussion" I would ask you to consider whether any piro is
a matter of juggling ability and therefore relevant to this
"discussion". That is, putting a '55500' at a 9 height is a juggling
ability; doing anything on the ground while they are up there -- is
that juggling?
For my twocents on this outstandingly unpleasant popularity contest,
if anyone thinks Anthony or Volva or Thomatz can do what Michael Karas
has in his latest YouTube as posted "Prop Danger 2" you go right
ahead and think so. My mouth is still stuck in "ga-Wuuh" mode, so I
cannot argue that point.
-
JugglerPeter
> but how do you judge art?
>
>
You say this as though "Art" cannot be qualified or judged - it just is
and there is no way to determine whether 1 piece of art is better than
another.
There are competitions for artists that judge the qualify of your
painting. Figure skating has an "artistic" component with strict judging.
It's pretty easy to tell what the great paintings are by how much they
sell for.
In fact, there are people who's entire jobs it is to critique art.
So I really get irritated when people try to say that art can't be judged
or compared (as your rhetorical statement attempted to do).
JugglerPeter
>
> ManiacDrew wrote:
> >
> > agedest wrote:
> > > Second, following
> > > MD and others, what actual relationship has there been between top
> > > jugglers and their perceived self-opinion?
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> I totally agree that confidence in yourself is necessary to become great
> at anything. However, confidence level and ego level are not the same.
> If you say "I know I can get this trick" it's not the same as "I bet no
> one else could do this trick" which is what Gatto is pretty much saying.
>
> > I found that most of the top jugglers had high confidence
> > that seemed either "overly competitive" or "conceited".
> >
>
> Really? I haven't noticed this. Perhaps many of the top sport/technical
> jugglers have an attitude like this, but even in that arena some of the
> best jugglers are nice guys.
>
> Besides, why not let his video speak for itself? If he's really as great
> as he (and many of you) think he is, his juggling should be able to show
> it without all the hype.
>
>
Anthony is a nice guy, everyone I know who has met him has said that. I
think if he tried to be modest it would sound fake. Besides to sell
yourself you need to boast (have you ever had a job interview?)
GLF00
>
>
>
> Sure we can disagree, but please agree that this whole region of the
What, you have a magic power or something to decide that we can or can'
disagree?
> but please agree that this whole region of the thread started because you
>disagreed with my right to say Gatto is the
> world's best juggler. You seem to be confused about what's going on.
Ah, the magician asks a price that I won't pay.
>
> Glen Luke, you are an example of the tool that screws rec.juggling.
>
This isn't intelligent enough to get a response, but I'm feeling
argumentative and had to say something.
ManiacDrew
>
> ManiacDrew wrote:
> > Why do these types of threads usually mention Vova, and not Diez?
> > (I'd really like to know, considering Diez wins the WJF comps).
>
> Drew this is not the first time that you type his name wrongly:
>
> DieTz, Thomas DieTz!
>
>
Thanks for the correction!
MD
GLF00
>
>
>
>
> In my first post on this subject I acknowledge Gatto's ego. What you
> ARGUED was my use of the phrase "best juggler in the world."
>
>
>
>
>
>
In that case, I apologize for as you say "winding you up". It seemed to
me that you were defending Gatto and saying that it's okay for him to have
an ego because he is (in your opinion) "the best".
Glen Luke
aaron gregg
>
> aaron gregg wrote:
> >
> > In my first post on this subject I acknowledge Gatto's ego. What you
> > ARGUED was my use of the phrase "best juggler in the world."
> >
>
> me that you were defending Gatto and saying that it's okay for him to have
> an ego because he is (in your opinion) "the best".
>
misunderstood the gist of my first post on this subject. I argued that a
big ego wasn't necessarily detrimental to one's image (I didn't use Gatto
as an example but rather Muhammad Ali).
My second point was in relation to Reeses2150's assertion that being
humble will result in one practicing more and consequently being better.
I used Gatto as an example because his ego doesn't seem to have affected
his desire to practice seeing as he's so good. I used the phrase "best
juggler" because it's common parlance amongst people who don't get bent
out of shape about semantics. Unfortunately, the fuel that seems to run
this newsgroup is getting hung up on semantics.
The reason I hate posting here is because it's so easy to end up arguing
with people who don't know what they're talking about or have a
misunderstanding. Did you think that because I referred to Gatto as the
best juggler that I'm somehow all into competitive juggling and have no
respect for other types of juggling? I'll give you an example:
You asked in the Gatto forum about an artistic juggler named Lana Bolin.
Well, off the top of my head I can tell you she won an IJA juniors
(silver?) medal though I can't recall what year. She's from Edina
Minnesota and was part of the jugheads. When she first started juggling
she was an avid joggler - a fact that she may be embarrassed about at this
point. She's around age 20.
She has been significantly inspired by Jay and Luke Wilson. If you look
on the 2004 IJA tape you'll see her doing a WJF parody with Jay and Luke.
I believe Luke plays Ben Jennings and Jay plays Penn Jillette. Lana plays
herself - though rather poorly IMHO.
Her performances don't normally involve more than three objects and she
seems to prefer clubs over other props. Incidentally she prefers Delphins
because of their low weight which helps for practicing five. Her
performances are set to laid back indie music though I must admit I don't
know the pieces.
She's spent a lot of time in Europe over the last couple of years,
including a fair bit of time in Scandanavia. She's more into music these
days than juggling. She play bass in an avant-garde band that I
unfortunately haven't heard.
In contrast to her artistic reputation she's an avid combat player and is
big on team combat. She has a very limited web-presence which I
discovered a while back. She also doesn't post to newsgroups, however,
others will on her behalf if someone posts a link to a video of her act
that was supposed to be private.
The reason I'm saying all this Glen Luke, is to illustrate that you might
be arguing with someone who knows far more than you.
Would you like any more info on specific jugglers?
-Aaron (whoah there Adog, easy big-fella)
popstar_dave
>
> Mention has been made of a two-stage 1080? Say what? If there is a
> YouTube (only) of anyone doing that, I would very much appreciate that
> link. Chris Fowler has a video of him doing a single turn to 1080 --
> and continuing the pattern, hooray. Having studied pirouettes
> extensively, from the YouTubes I've seen of Anthony and Vova, Anthony
> is, shall we say, not good in general; while Vova is one of the best
> out there and has been since teaching himself as a kid. Piro's have
> become a /sine qua non/ for WJF scoring, even though Garfield is also,
> shall we say, not good in general even though he then contaminates
> others by presuming to teach how to do them (as badly as he has?). If
> Garfield has finally managed a single 540 and has that on a YouTube,
> again please let me know.
IIRC, there's a video floating around somewhere with JG doing a three-up
triple pirouette with clubs. Can't remember off the top of my head which
video it's on (Possibly, 'Things AG can't do'.)
Cheers,
Dave
Little Paul
>
> Would you like any more info on specific jugglers?
Ooh! Yes please! Have you got any info on William Everhart? All
I really know is that he was a hoop roller.
-Paul
--
paulseward.com - a photo a day for 2008
100jugglers.org - 100 pieces of signed juggling promotional material
Le_lemGo
So, according to your logic, you are entitled to defend your viewpoints
more vehemently because you
have so much knowledge, and therefore your arguments are more cogent than
mr. or mrs.
everybody´s?
lemGo
Le_lemGo
> And I'm not saying that Vova won't learn a lot of tricks that Gatto does,
> but I'm saying that the Gatto's learning time is still faster than Vova's.
Daniele, I'd more than delighted if you could provide one concrete example
of a trick for which there
is documentation in order to back up your claim that Gatto's learning time
is shorter than Vova's...
Thanks in advance.
Daniele Caselli
>
> Daniele Caselli wrote:
>
> > And I'm not saying that Vova won't learn a lot of tricks that Gatto does,
> > but I'm saying that the Gatto's learning time is still faster than Vova's.
>
> Daniele, I'd more than delighted if you could provide one concrete example
> of a trick for which there
> is documentation in order to back up your claim that Gatto's learning time
> is shorter than Vova's...
For example this picture that shows Gatto doing 7 clubs when he was 13
http://www.juggling.org/jw/86/3/Icon/gatto-7c.gif
and it's humanly impossible that he started doing 7 RENEGADE clubs before
he was 10! So maybe 3 years to do 44 catches of 7 clubs in front of an
audience and on his first attempt (IJC Numbers Competition).
The same for 9 rings: when he was 13 (so approximately 1 or 2 years after
he started doing 9 rings) he did 25 catches of 9 rings and 1:46 minutes of
7 rings (with his father who told him to stop) in front of an audience!
http://www.juggling.org/jw/86/3/numbers.html
Vova can't still do a single minute of 7 rings on a WJF and he's now 19?
20?
So stronger then a 13 years old child, and with 1 year (or more?) of rings
practising, we'll see in the next year if Vova will do at least 26 catches
of 9 rings on the WJF Competition or however on stage ;-)
Daniele
Daniele Caselli
>
> For example this picture that shows Gatto doing 7 clubs when he was 13
> http://www.juggling.org/jw/86/3/Icon/gatto-7c.gif
>
> and it's humanly impossible that he started doing 7 RENEGADE clubs before
> he was 10! So maybe 3 years to do 44 catches of 7 clubs in front of an
> audience and on his first attempt (IJC Numbers Competition).
I forgot to say that is true that Vova did 32 catches of 7 clubs in 2005
and 170 catches in 2006 (but strangely 83 catches in 2007 while Gatto never
had a «défaillance» on his numbers competitions: he always improved his
previous records), so he did better than Gatto in 1 year, but he had no
significant improvements on rings or balls (speaking of numbers
competition)
in that year.
We'll see in this year 2007-2008!
popstar_dave
You know what, lemGo... I'd say that having more knowledge is a pretty
good indicator of convincing arguments.
Dave
...argued with Aaron, once.
aaron gregg
>
> aaron gregg wrote:
> >
> > GLF00 wrote:
> > >
> > > aaron gregg wrote:
> > > >
> > > > In my first post on this subject I acknowledge Gatto's ego. What you
> > > > ARGUED was my use of the phrase "best juggler in the world."
> > > >
> > >
> > > In that case, I apologize for as you say "winding you up". It seemed to
> > > me that you were defending Gatto and saying that it's okay for him to
have
> > > an ego because he is (in your opinion) "the best".
> > >
> > There's the problem of discussing things on the internet. You completely
> > misunderstood the gist of my first post on this subject. I argued that a
> > big ego wasn't necessarily detrimental to one's image (I didn't use Gatto
> > as an example but rather Muhammad Ali).
> >
> > The reason I'm saying all this Glen Luke, is to illustrate that you might
> > be arguing with someone who knows far more than you.
> >
> > Would you like any more info on specific jugglers?
> >
> > -Aaron (whoah there Adog, easy big-fella)
>
> So, according to your logic, you are entitled to defend your viewpoints
> more vehemently because you
> have so much knowledge, and therefore your arguments are more cogent than
> mr. or mrs.
> everybody´s?
> lemGo
That's not what I'm saying but I generally agree with your statement
nonetheless. Our world is filled with examples where peoples' opinions
are weighted much more heavily than others' based on their knowledge and
experience. Scientists are a good example. Also, in the US a trial can be
decided by one judge or 12 ordinary people because the judge knows a lot
about law (I know the judge/jury thing is more complicated than this but I
think it illustrates my point).
Once again I'll reiterate that this whole section of the thread got
started because Glen Luke got all fussed up about me calling Gatto the
world's best juggler. What pisses me off is that Glen Luke has been
posting on here for less than a year and feels the need to waste bandwidth
on his pontifications about the difficulties of comparing and quantifying
juggling competitions. I am well aware of the problems and so are many
others but we say best juggler anyway cause it's good shorthand for what
we're really trying to say.
After Daniele provided us with a wonderfully referenced list of
accomplishments and why it's non unreasonable to use the term "best
Juggler," GLF00 went all on about how you can't have a competition for art
(I guess they better cancel the Cannes film festival). Ironically, GLF00
feels it's okay for Luke Wilson and Jay Gilligan to use the term "best
juggler" because they've thought about it. Well, I know just how much Jay
knows about it because I once spent 2 hours talking to him about Gatto.
Here's a little story that illustrates my point: A friend of mine started
telling me once that Thomas was a better technical juggler than Anthony. I
obviously disagreed. After a few points were exchanged back and forth I
asked my friend what he'd seen of the two people. He'd seen all of
Thomas' videos and only a few of Anthony's. I pointed it out to him that
I'd seen all the Thomas videos he had, and TBTB 1 though 111 as well as
gatto's footage from Monte Carlo, and his IJA competitions. Then I
pointed out that I'd seen Thomas perform several times, watched him
practice in the gym and I'd also seen Gatto perform live twice.
At this point my friend realized that he had nowhere near the information
I had and that with the little that he had his opinion wasn't very well
formed. I then told him that I'd even had a chance to talk to Thomas about
Anthony's skills, and well...
I certainly don't know as much about juggling as many people on this
newsgroup but I've taken the time to find out who they are and I try and
consider that when posting. It's indicative of GLF00's nature that when I
showed him that two of his idols agreed with my statement he replied,
"yeah, but they've thought about it a lot."
I've wasted far too much time. Oh, and no LP I don't know anything about
William Everhart. Why? because historical juggling figures are your area
not mine, and you should know that. However, LP, if you've got questions
about North American comedy jugglers I might be able to help you.
-Aaron (wound up like a ball of string)
BTW popstar, you're too kind. Say hi to the Syd gang for me.