poi/juggling communication invitation
onewheeldave
From onewheeldave of Sheffield.
I'm into skills, used to be mainly juggling and related (devil stick,
diablo etc).
Got heavily into spinning (poi, meteors) and was very aware of some of the
issues that poi caused amongst some jugglers.
Presently off-road/big wheel unicycling and spinning are my main passions,
also trying to do more juggling type stuff.
My internet time is mainly with unicyclist.com and homeofpoi.com (both
superb resources/communities) and I have been contributing to a recent HOP
thread that touched on the poi/juggling issue.
I wrote an article which is here: -
http://www.geocities.com/combatunicycle/poi_juggling.html
Writing that article helped me see the jugglers point of view better,
though I still disagree strongly with soem of the ways it was expressed.
The thrust of the article is that I feel that respectful communication
could have benefited everyone involved.
Recent posts have suggested that some of the issues are still relevant
(though the new generation of jugglers and spinners seem much more
respectful of each other art), so I thought I'd invite the people here to
contribute.
The HOP thread is here: -
I hope that anyone who wants to contribute will do so in a spirit of
sincere respectful communication, criticising each others arts will lead
nowhere.
Of course, feel free to dicuss here as well, finding the way round a
strange forum can be disorientating.
----== posted via www.jugglingdb.com ==----
Scott Kurland
> From onewheeldave of Sheffield.
>
> I'm into skills, used to be mainly juggling and related (devil stick,
> diablo etc).
>
> Got heavily into spinning (poi, meteors) and was very aware of some
> of the issues that poi caused amongst some jugglers.
>
> Presently off-road/big wheel unicycling and spinning are my main
> passions, also trying to do more juggling type stuff.
>
> My internet time is mainly with unicyclist.com and homeofpoi.com (both
> superb resources/communities) and I have been contributing to a
> recent HOP thread that touched on the poi/juggling issue.
>
> I wrote an article which is here: -
>
>
> Writing that article helped me see the jugglers' point of view better,
> expressed.
>
> The thrust of the article is that I feel that respectful communication
> could have benefited everyone involved.
>
> Recent posts have suggested that some of the issues are still relevant
> (though the new generation of jugglers and spinners seem much more
> respectful of each other art), so I thought I'd invite the people
> here to contribute.
>
> The HOP thread is here: -
>
>
http://www.homeofpoi.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=199343&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1
>
> I hope that anyone who wants to contribute will do so in a spirit of
> lead nowhere.
>
> Of course, feel free to discuss here as well, finding the way round a
> strange forum can be disorientating.
Talky bitch, ain't ya?* ;-)
You had some really good points, which I'll mention in a later post when I'm
less irked. For now I'll point out some of the dumb shit you spouted:
"Poi is ... more accessible than juggling (due to the initial ease of learning
and the fact that good equipment can be made at home) ..."
Cascade takes maybe half an hour. For someone *really* right-handed it takes
longer, but he might get 2-in-1-hand his first try.
It is easier to find three rocks than it is to make a set of poi. Balls,
rolled-up socks... you have no case that it's easier to make poi than
balls/beanbags. Hell, newspaper clubs are probably easier to make than poi.
" (I spoke to a juggler who thought he knew what muni was about simply because
he'd ridden a 24" wheel unicycle!)"
You mean you spoke to a *unicyclist* who thought he knew what muni was about
simply because he'd ridden a 24" wheel unicycle, right? Why cast him as a
juggler in this case when his unicycling experience is obviously more relevant
here?
"This is not an attack on jugglers..."
Read for comprehension, dude.
You neglected my favorite solution to aggressive spinners - butterfly knife
sleights. :-)
* I'm a misunderstanding critical destructive reactive disliking jealous dumb
cowardly bashing muttering whining useless intimidated intemperate
inconsiderate resentful inarticulate possessive ignorant moaning
uncommunicative distracted hostile negative aloof snobbish cliquish difficult
piss-ripping conformist dismaying ridiculing arrogant wrong annoying juggler.
Very tolerant, you are.
onewheeldave
> onewheeldave wrote:
> >
> > I wrote an article which is here: -
> >
> > www.geocities.com/combatunicycle/poi_juggling.html
> >
=====================================
Scott Kurland wrote:
> It is easier to find three rocks than it is to make a set of poi. Balls,
> rolled-up socks... you have no case that it's easier to make poi than
> balls/beanbags. Hell, newspaper clubs are probably easier to make than poi.
>
==============================
My first clubs were newspaper ones :)
What I mean is that home made juggling stuff tends to be a bit duff, most
jugglers not only feel the need to buy some commercial clubs, they also
tend to strive towards the higher quality expensive ones.
Juggling with rocks is a bit harsh, most people quickly want to move onto
beanbags or stage balls.
Poi is a different matter, most of the commercial poi are not used by
people who spin a lot, they much prefer their home made stuff.
Same with fire chains, I've seen them in shops for £40-£50 and they're not
nice- chain too thick, wicks badly designed etc. I make my own, customised
to my own style- they're cheap to make and I prefer them to anything I've
seen in a shop.
=============
>
> " (I spoke to a juggler who thought he knew what muni was about simply
because
> he'd ridden a 24" wheel unicycle!)"
>
>
>
> You mean you spoke to a *unicyclist* who thought he knew what muni was about
> simply because he'd ridden a 24" wheel unicycle, right? Why cast him as a
> juggler in this case when his unicycling experience is obviously more
relevant
> here?
==============
No, he was a juggler.
Nathan
>
>
>
> From onewheeldave of Sheffield.
>
Aka 3 Ball Dave by any chance.
Will check out the HOP thread.
Nathan (aka cornet, mate of Tempest)
Jeff Clark
http://www.homeofpoi.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=199343&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1
>
> I hope that anyone who wants to contribute will do so in a spirit of
> sincere respectful communication, criticising each others arts will lead
> nowhere.
Snipped from your article:
1. It’s a relatively unskilful activity that is easy to learn
I would say that this is quite simply not true, as someone who is very
good at three ball juggling combinations, can do 5 balls, double devil
sticks, off road unicycling, a fair bit of diablo, contact juggling and
off road unicycling,
</snip>
..um, i hate to but in, but i would call that an extremely low level of
juggling. But hey, thats just me.
My arguments against poi:
1. Its not juggling, and shouldn't ever be called such.
2. I find it incredibly boring.
3. Its not juggling.
4. The only way to make it exciting is to light them on fire
(poi-spinners, not the poi themselves.)
5. And of course, its not juggling...
But hey, i would consider it an art, even a manipulative art, but jugglers
don't like poi-spinners because they aren't juggling at juggling club, not
because they smell bad...
No offense to you personally, i actually enjoy a good poi performance.
I'm from an area with a lot of Pacific Islanders, so i've seen quite a bit
of the stuff. But of course, they do interesting things i've never seen a
"juggler"/poiswinger do, and their style is entirely different.
Jeff
onewheeldave
good at three ball juggling combinations, can do 5 balls, double devil
sticks, off road unicycling, a fair bit of diablo, contact juggling and
off road unicycling,
</snip>
Jeff said: -
..um, i hate to but in, but i would call that an extremely low level of
juggling. But hey, thats just me.
=============
onewheeledave replies-
Can I just clarify, what do you guys (and girls) take as juggling? i.e.
most literally as being toss juggling with balls, clubs etc, or do you
include devilstick, diablo etc.
Regarding my 'level of juggling' what I meant is that in the past I've
done a fair bit and know what it's like to push myself, I'm just making it
clear that I've spent a lot of time working on both juggling and spinning.
This is because a lot of comments on the juggling/poi situation have come
from people who have done only one of the arts in question. An example
being someone who's learnt a three beat poi weave and then goes on to say
that they could learn all the poi stuff in a matter of weeks.
I feel that someone who can't actually do advanced poi stuff like behind
the back turning combinations, the new one handed stuff/releases etc, and
do them all in a flowing 'dance' is not in anywhere as good a position to
assess their level of difficulty as I am, regardless of their achievements
in juggling.
Basically, I've done enough juggling to know how difficult it is, whereas
some of the jugglers who have said poi is easy haven't done enough to be
able to assess it.
=============
Jeff said: -
My arguments against poi:
1. Its not juggling, and shouldn't ever be called such.
2. I find it incredibly boring.
3. Its not juggling.
4. The only way to make it exciting is to light them on fire
(poi-spinners, not the poi themselves.)
5. And of course, its not juggling...
But hey, i would consider it an art, even a manipulative art, but jugglers
don't like poi-spinners because they aren't juggling at juggling club, not
because they smell bad...
No offense to you personally, i actually enjoy a good poi performance.
I'm from an area with a lot of Pacific Islanders, so i've seen quite a bit
of the stuff. But of course, they do interesting things i've never seen a
"juggler"/poiswinger do, and their style is entirely different.
==========
onewheeledave replies-
Again, clarification of what 'against poi' means would be helpfull. Do you
mean that you personally won't get into it, or, that you think it
shouldn't happen at juggling clubs.
Regarding your points: -
1. I'm not calling it juggling, but, like I asked above, what do you mean
by juggling? i.e. if devil stick etc are juggling, then so is poi.
2. Fair enough.
3. see 1 above.
4. As I mention in the article, jugglers 'humour' regarding assualting
spinners is of little use in achieving any kind of understanding between
the two arts.
I'm wondering where this discussion is going; the title is sincerely meant
i.e. an invitation for communication between spinners and jugglers.
I feel there's really little need for debate on the old stuff like the
skill levels of poi, I've said everything I can think of in the original
article on those subjects.
What would be useful is to get a clear perspective of the juggling
communities attitudes to spinning i.e. not just the views of the vocal
minority. Previously, amongst spinners, jugglers have got a reputation for
rudeness, arrogance and elitism/exclusion because of a relatively small
number of individuals who were abusive and dismissive of spinning.
Now, most of the jugglers I know are fine with spinning, some are even
getting into it.
One issue that's possibly going to become predominant is the relationship
between spinners and jugglers in the future.
Are they going to continue practicing their arts in the same venues? Up to
now juggling halls have been the only convenient indoor spaces available
for spinners (and I acknowledge, in the article, that there are issues
about that concerning 'invasion' of juggling spaces).
However, spinners are starting to twig that they aren't subject to the
difficulties that jugglers have to endure in finding suitable space
because they are not restricted to high ceilinged venues.
There are a host of community centers, low roofed university halls etc;
many of which are available free of charge.
Spinners are a very enthusiastic bunch, even with low levels of
organisational tendencies they have developed a massive internet community
with 'Home of Poi' being one of the biggest and most frequented skills
resources/community forum on the WWW.
In addition, the worldwide phenomenon of such events as 'Poi in the Park',
especially bearing in mind that this is an outdoor event, shows that they
are into getting together and sharing skills.
Given the ease with which they can get suitable indoor spaces (I sorted
out a hall for my new spinning group in one afternoon, for free at a
nearby community center), and the feelings of hostility that many spinners
have felt from jugglers; it is concievable that, over the next few years,
numbers of spinners at juggling events could well drop drastically.
Which could be seen as a good thing from the jugglers perspective of
course.
However, certainly where Sheffield juggling club is concerned, there was a
time a few years ago when the club was on its last legs in terms of
membership, and was definitly helped, if not saved, by a conscious
decision to attract spinners.
I really can't say how popular juggliung is at the moment, but, from what
I see locally, and from the enthusiasm/numbers I'm seeing on the
respective internet resources of the two arts, and from what I'm seeing
from a community perspective of 'normal' (ie non jugglers/spinner) who
want to get into a skill; poi is, and has been for the past few years,
considerably bigger.
I'm not saying that to imply that poi is better, simply pointing out a
fact.
Again, not necessarily a problem for the established juggling groups, or
even for the community as a whole (the infrastructure of the juggling
scene is so well organised with established conventions etc, that it will
undoubtably survive any deviations in 'fashionability').
The question is, do you care about the little clubs that are sustained by
the financial contributions of their members (many of them spinners),
about attracting people to juggling from the community, not so they can
become 'elite' jugglers, but because skill aquisition is a valuable thing
in itself.
It's your choice, both arts will continue whatever happens, and, in the
issue of poi/juggling seperatism I really have no feelings one way or the
other.
The main thing is that the juggling communities choice is made by the
juggling community as a whole, not just by a vocal minority.
And, if the desire is there for better integration of the two, an
acknowledgement that there is a need for more communication and more
respect, and then a sincere attempt to bring that about.
Scott Kurland
> I would say that this is quite simply not true, as someone who is very
> good at three ball juggling combinations, can do 5 balls, double
> devil sticks, off road unicycling, a fair bit of diablo, contact
> juggling and off road unicycling,
> </snip>
>
> Jeff said: -
>
>
> ..um, i hate to but in, but i would call that an extremely low level
Yeah, just you. If we set 3-ball cascade as the skill floor of juggling, 5
ball cascade is not an extremely low level.
> Can I just clarify, what do you guys (and girls) take as juggling?
> i.e. most literally as being toss juggling with balls, clubs etc,
Plus bounce, yeah.
> do you include devilstick, diablo etc.
Um, I think of them as related circus skills, and have only practical problems
with them.
> Regarding my 'level of juggling' what I meant is that in the past I've
> done a fair bit and know what it's like to push myself, I'm just
> making it clear that I've spent a lot of time working on both
> juggling and spinning.
>
> This is because a lot of comments on the juggling/poi situation have
> come from people who have done only one of the arts in question. An
> example being someone who's learnt a three beat poi weave and then
> goes on to say that they could learn all the poi stuff in a matter of
> weeks.
>
> I feel that someone who can't actually do advanced poi stuff like
> behind the back turning combinations, the new one handed
> stuff/releases etc, and do them all in a flowing 'dance' is not in
> anywhere as good a position to assess their level of difficulty as I
> am, regardless of their achievements in juggling.
>
> Basically, I've done enough juggling to know how difficult it is,
> whereas some of the jugglers who have said poi is easy haven't done
> enough to be able to assess it.
>
> =============
>
> Jeff said: -
>
> My arguments against poi:
>
> 1. Its not juggling, and shouldn't ever be called such.
> 2. I find it incredibly boring.
> 4. The only way to make it exciting is to light them on fire
> (poi-spinners, not the poi themselves.)
> But hey, i would consider it an art, even a manipulative art, but
> jugglers don't like poi-spinners because they aren't juggling at
> juggling club, not because they smell bad...
>
> No offense to you personally, i actually enjoy a good poi performance.
> I'm from an area with a lot of Pacific Islanders, so I've seen quite
> a bit of the stuff. But of course, they do interesting things I've
> never seen a "juggler"/poiswinger do, and their style is entirely
> different.
> ==========
> onewheeledave replies-
>
> Again, clarification of what 'against poi' means would be helpful.
Clarification of where you saw the phrase 'against poi' would be helpful too.
> Do you mean that you personally won't get into it, or, that you think
> it shouldn't happen at juggling clubs.
> Regarding your points: -
> 4. As I mention in the article, jugglers 'humor's regarding assaulting
> spinners is of little use in achieving any kind of understanding
> between the two arts.
See my sig.
> What would be useful is to get a clear perspective of the juggling
> communities attitudes to spinning i.e. not just the views of the vocal
> minority. Previously, amongst spinners, jugglers have got a
> reputation for rudeness, arrogance
Check, check....
> and elitism/exclusion because of a
> relatively small number of individuals who were abusive and
> dismissive of spinning.
Eh. I can 3-beat weave and turn. One of the best jugglers at the local club
(hi Nathan!) does poi, so it's hard to disparage it.
>
> Now, most of the jugglers I know are fine with spinning, some are even
> getting into it.
A little, sure. I found out about the downside to meteors, sure enough.
Scott the misunderstanding critical destructive reactive disliking jealous dumb
mini mansell
if you where you could have had the chance to see just how bad poi can look
on stage.
two guys. possible experienced poi swingers where an act.
unortunately. they did not have an act. just two guys swinging poi to
music.
no character development. no syncronisation, no audience participation of
involvement.
on the plus side. the majority of the audience where laughing out loud at
the absurdity of it.
--
www.minimansell.com
www.jestersjuggling.co.uk
"onewheeldave" <bestdavei...@yahoo.com.nospam> wrote in message
news:4041ff39$0$63624$bed6...@news.gradwell.net...
onewheeldave
> where you at the liverpool convention this weekend dave?
>
> if you where you could have had the chance to see just how bad poi can look
> on stage.
>
> two guys. possible experienced poi swingers where an act.
> unortunately. they did not have an act. just two guys swinging poi to
> music.
>
> no character development. no syncronisation, no audience participation of
> involvement.
>
> on the plus side. the majority of the audience where laughing out loud at
> the absurdity of it.
>
>
No, I wasn't at Liverpool.
I'll take your word that the poi act was bad.
I'm not sure what the point you're making is though. I've also seen a few
bad juggling acts in my time; isn't it likely that the reasons the poi act
wasn't very good is due to the lack of performance abilities of the
spinners, rather than the implements they were using.
Have I ever seen a good poi performance? No, not in the kind of 'show'
sense that we get at conventions.
Splitting juggling show performances into two broad camps, those of the
'clowny' variety with lots of audience interaction, humour etc, and those
which are based on high skill levels (eg technical moves done to music); I
would imagine that a poi act of the first variety would be difficult to
imagine.
I think a poi act of the second kind is feasible, but, as with any act,
would require lots of work, experience and practice to be good.
Poi has been on the circuit much less time than juggling, so that level of
skill/experience is obviously going to be far less developed.
Another factor is that poi isn't particularly associated with performance
in the way juggling is; like I said in the article, people are drawn to it
for other reasons eg skill, accessibility, spiritual aspects etc.
Lastly, maybe it's more suited to a different kind of show environment
such as the big outdoor fire shows that troups like TePooka do.
Nathan Peterson
> I feel that someone who can't actually do advanced poi stuff like
> behind the back turning combinations, the new one handed
> stuff/releases etc, and do them all in a flowing 'dance' is not in
> anywhere as good a position to assess their level of difficulty as I
> am, regardless of their achievements in juggling.
What new one handed stuff are you referring to? One handed "stuff" has
always been around, and so have releases. I used to be able to do 5
beat behind the back weave pretty well. Does that qualify me as being
able to assess level of difficulty? Can you do 5 beat btb weave?
> 4. As I mention in the article, jugglers 'humor' regarding
> assualting spinners is of little use in achieving any kind of
> understanding between the two arts.
You're saying that as if Jeff shares your goals or something.
I have nothing against poi. I'm a poi swinger myself. I have nothing
against humor either though. In fact, I'm in the process of working on
an anti-poi video. It's not an attempt to achieve or destroy any sort
of "understanding." It's just for fun.
> I'm wondering where this discussion is going; the title is sincerely
> meant i.e. an invitation for communication between spinners and
> jugglers.
You are a very strange guy. I don't think you understand the
rec.juggling community very well. Your post is more of a HOP style
post. People think differently over there. I learned quickly a long
time ago that it's best not to post rec.juggling style on HOP, and
similarly it's best not to post HOP style on rec.juggling.
> Now, most of the jugglers I know are fine with spinning, some are
> even getting into it
[stuff snipped...]
Quote inserted from article:
"Whilst I believe that the two are now more reconciled than in the past,
that the conflicts are to a large extent over,..."
[stuff sniped...]
> Given the ease with which they can get suitable indoor spaces (I
> sorted out a hall for my new spinning group in one afternoon, for
> free at a nearby community center), and the feelings of hostility
> that many spinners have felt from jugglers; it is concievable that,
> over the next few years, numbers of spinners at juggling events could
> well drop drastically.
You are saying that jugglers' opinions of spinners have been much better
than they used to be, but somehow you are worried about it getting worse
all of a sudden. What is your reasoning to back that up? It doesn't
seem like you are making a lot of sense here.
> I really can't say how popular juggliung is at the moment, but, from
> what I see locally, and from the enthusiasm/numbers I'm seeing on
> the respective internet resources of the two arts, and from what I'm
> seeing from a community perspective of 'normal' (ie non
> jugglers/spinner) who want to get into a skill; poi is, and has been
> for the past few years, considerably bigger.
>
> I'm not saying that to imply that poi is better, simply pointing out
> a fact.
Here you are saying conflicting things again. You say that you don't
know how popular juggling is, but you know how popular poi is, and you
know how popular juggling is relative to poi. Doesn't that imply that
you know how popular juggling is? Maybe you meant something else...
anyway, you say that it is a "fact" that the poi community is
considerably larger than the juggling community and has been for the
past few years. The poi community may in fact be bigger at the moment
for all I know. I haven't really been paying attention, but I know it's
been growing really really fast. To say that it's been like that for the
past few years, however, is just wrong. How long have you been poi
swinging? It must not be more than a couple of years because then you
would realize that all there was 2 1/2 years ago on the internet was
HOP, and maybe two other sites that really didn't have much on them.
> It's your choice, both arts will continue whatever happens, and, in
> the issue of poi/juggling seperatism I really have no feelings one
> way or the other.
No feelings one way or another? Why are you making this big fuss about
it and why did you write that long article? You said so yourself...
this is a subject that is near and dear to your heart.
> The main thing is that the juggling communities choice is made by the
> juggling community as a whole, not just by a vocal minority.
There is really no choice to be made here. There will always be
juggling and poi together, no matter how many people do or don't bitch
about it.
Since I'm responding to your post. I might as well respond to some of
your article too:
> People seem unreasonably fascinated by watching fire poi, it seems
> unfair that a juggler can spend much time working on fire club
> juggling when a relatively inexperienced poi-er can attract audience
> attention
Why are you comparing fire poi with "fire club" juggling? Most jugglers
rarely juggle torches or other fire props. The average joe shmoe
juggler would most likely not only be complaining about fire spinning
attracting too many audience members, but also about any fire usage in
general attracting too many people. That includes torches.
That's one of the main differences between jugglers and poi swingers.
If there were no such thing as fire, at least 50% of all poi swingers
would be gone. Probably a lot more than that too. I seldom meet a
juggler who juggles b/c of fire, yet I've met so many poi swingers who
are in it just b/c of the fire. Spinning without fire to them is just
practice for spinning with fire. I'm not saying that all poi spinners
are like that. There are also the ravers who only spin glowsticks, and
then there are the poi swingers who don't care about glowsticks or fire.
Those are the ones that jugglers can relate best with b/c they are
actually in it for the skill.
> most poi people are not interested in entertaining people
What?!? I think you have it a little bit backwards here. Certainly not
all poi swingers are interested in entertaining people, but probably
more of them than not. Especially when it comes to fire. The whole
environment is set up for performing in front of other people. If you
have a bunch of fire spinners together, generally one or two of them
will light up while the other ones watch. They are constantly spinning
in front of other people who are watching them and they try to make
their spinning interesting for others to watch. That doesn't happen
with jugglers. If they are together in a group, they all just juggle at
the same time. Most jugglers rarely perform. The majority of them are
math/science geeks and engineers. They mostly do things to entertain
themselves. One time I was at a poi club meeting (yes we have one here
in Austin), and I asked if any of them had worked on any two person
patterns, and I explained one that I wanted to work on. One of the guys
told me that pattern wouldn't look very good. I told him that I just
wanted to do it for fun. He said "yeah, but it will look better to an
audience if you do this simpler pattern side-by-side." I told him that
I wasn't interested in doing it in front of an audience. He was like
"what do you mean?" He just didn't understand the concept of practicing
something just for the sake of practicing it. You will never find a
juggler who doesn't understand that concept.
> My approach was to firstly ask why jugglers found poi so
> intimidating, after all poi spinners didn’t seem to have a problem
> with other spinners getting too close. This was I believe because
> poi-ers know that most spinners are very aware of peoples proximity,
Hmm... umm, a lot of the poi spinners at festivals really have no clue
what they are doing and many of them are completely oblivious to other
people's proximity.
> and that generally being hit by a poi isn’t going to hurt. Jugglers
> can’t be expected to know this, so they are intimidated.
Jugglers know that the stereotypical neon poi with streamers are not
going to hurt them. They are not stupid and they are not intimidated.
They are just annoyed by them sometimes.
> why did the jugglers find it so distracting when I, and the spinners
> didn’t. Partly it was due to the fact that spinners spin, they know
> how poi move and they know how to get through/past a group of
> spinners; they also know that most poi will not hurt on impact.
Again, jugglers are not stupid. They know how to get past a group of
poi spinners. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know how "poi moves".
-Nathan
mini mansell
> mini mansell wrote:
> > where you at the liverpool convention this weekend dave?
> >
> > if you where you could have had the chance to see just how bad poi can
look
> > on stage.
> >
> > two guys. possible experienced poi swingers where an act.
> > unortunately. they did not have an act. just two guys swinging
poi to
> > music.
> >
> > no character development. no syncronisation, no audience participation
of
> > involvement.
> >
> > on the plus side. the majority of the audience where laughing out
loud at
> > the absurdity of it.
> >
> >
> ================
> No, I wasn't at Liverpool.
>
> I'll take your word that the poi act was bad.
>
> I'm not sure what the point you're making is though. I've also seen a few
> bad juggling acts in my time; isn't it likely that the reasons the poi act
> wasn't very good is due to the lack of performance abilities of the
> spinners, rather than the implements they were using.
>
it was just a poor act.
unfortunately it reflected the majority of poi acts i have seen. and i
have seen plenty. running a renegade stage in a bjc of an ejc you get to
see a lot of poi.
> Have I ever seen a good poi performance? No, not in the kind of 'show'
> sense that we get at conventions.
>
the prolems poi is always going to have in the juggling scene is that in the
majority jugglers appreciate things that they cant do.
if a poi swinger was to get rid of the poi, and do the same moves with
clubs. it would be a good act. the jugglers would appreciate the fact
that they could be dropped.
if you where to view poi, as a sort of training wheel for club swinging it
would gain more respect.
many people who are poi fans ask why jugglers are anti poi (or some are) i
think the reason is simple. in all fields of juggling and object
manipulation, including toss, contact diabolo, devilstick etc. the
connecting factor is that all the props can be dropped.
> Splitting juggling show performances into two broad camps, those of the
> 'clowny' variety with lots of audience interaction, humour etc, and those
> which are based on high skill levels (eg technical moves done to music); I
> would imagine that a poi act of the first variety would be difficult to
> imagine.
>
i would struggle to imagine a poi act of either variety. but maybe thats
just me.
> I think a poi act of the second kind is feasible, but, as with any act,
> would require lots of work, experience and practice to be good.
>
as soon as poi can be dropped i will personally take more interest. that
really is the definition for me.
> Poi has been on the circuit much less time than juggling, so that level of
> skill/experience is obviously going to be far less developed.
>
> Another factor is that poi isn't particularly associated with performance
> in the way juggling is; like I said in the article, people are drawn to it
> for other reasons eg skill, accessibility, spiritual aspects etc.
>
> Lastly, maybe it's more suited to a different kind of show environment
> such as the big outdoor fire shows that troups like TePooka do.
while watching the tepooka fire show at last years EJC i heard two heckles
only. both where of the.
"it looks pretty but its not juggling" variety.
i think the tepooka shows have an apeal to many audiences.
but i am not sure that audience is a juggling audience.
my mum would love it.
Luke Burrage
Hello Dave,
I'd just like to thank you for all the effort you have put into your
article and the discussion here and on Home of Poi. To add balance to the
100% negative replies so far I'd like to add this jugglers views on poi. I
hope everyone can keep up...
Addressing three points:
1. Poi is too easy.
A few years ago my experience with poi swinging was pretty limited. I'd
tried it a few times, and like many jugglers, found it pretty easy. Of all
the tricks I had _ever_ seen done with poi, I couldn't find one that took
me more than a few minutes to learn. Easy.
Since then, over the years, the level of tricks and patterns that poi
swingers are doing, or at least what I have seen, has gone through the
roof. Now I see many things that are pretty complicated that would
probably be a small challenge to anyone.
So when all the American tech-headed jugglers say they are against poi
because it is too easy, they probably haven't seen the highest levels of
poi swinging there is. Sure, technically the most advanced poi moves
aren't as impossibly difficult as the highest level of juggling, but guess
what, guys? Maybe not everyone is interested in learning the most
difficult skill in the world ever (which I happen to think is
skateboarding, not juggling). Maybe some people want to learn a more
simple skill that won't take ten years of hard practice to become good at,
maybe they want make it look pleasant to watch or just enjoy it.
As a side note, I once did an experiment. I took Michal Kahn's book "Poi
Spinning", started at page one, worked on every trick in turn, through the
basic, intermediate and advanced sections and learnt every trick in the
book. It took just under a week at about an hour and a half a day. So
maybe it is easy, but who am I to judge? I find some very high level
technical juggling very easy and learnt four ball mills mess in under a
minute.
2. Poi is boring and not very creative.
It's true that 99% of poi swingers I've seen have done the same moves over
and over. Jugglers, I must admit, are very much the same but for one
exception. The selection of tricks that they have to repeat over and over
and over is much wider so they repeat less over more time.
So if you look at a poi swinger and say that they are being boring, just
look at what you are juggling and ask yourself if you have never seen it
done before. The chances are you are just doing the same things over and
over too.
The joy of both juggling and poi swinging is when you see something new!
Fortunately for me, someone who used to find poi very dull to watch for
more than fifteen seconds, I've recently seen lots and lots of new tricks
done with poi. A lot of them are pretty interesting, if you bother to give
them time.
Otherwise, if you still find poi boring, either to watch or practice, why
not try to invent some new tricks or patterns yourself? Why just learn
what you have seen people doing before when you can come up with new ideas
yourself? I personally find that far more interesting, even if they tricks
I learn have been done before.
I did this myself with poi. While working through the poi spinning book I
didn't use conventional poi at all. Instead I made a set of double ended
poi, with a ball at each end. I'd hold one ball while the other swung
arround me. They were not meteors, as with that prop you usually olny
swing one and hardly ever hold the end, always using the the rope. With
double ended poi, however, the balls are held most of the time while the
string is left untouched. The great thing about developing a new prop like
this is that at least 99% of the tricks you do with them will be new to
both yourself and an audience.
Strangely enough, when I performed with double ended poi at a juggling
convention, most people took them as a joke and since then I've not seen
anyone else do tricks with the same kind of prop.
Even so, I have recently seen two or three tricks done with poi that I
first did a year previously with double ended poi. Probably nothing to do
with me but developed independantly.
There is a lot of room for creativity with poi. Within a week I invented
dozens and dozens of tricks I'd not seen before or since. Enough to fill a
three minute routine anyway. I'd love to see a poi swinger fill a whole
routine with new skills but I guess nost people don't think like me.
3. Poi isn't juggling.
In mind poi swinging isn't juggling. In the world of Luke's brain a skill
is only juggling the object you are manipulating travels through the air,
unconnected your body or the floor. It is the tension that is caused when
an object is loose in the air that makes juggling stand out, the "will it
be caught or not?" question that flashes through the mind, either
conciously or not. So I'd list things like this:
Juggling -
tossing and bouncing props in classic juggling styles
cigar boxes
diabolo
devilsticks
many other skills I can't be bothered to list
Not juggling -
yoyo
lassoo
poi swinging
whips
I'm not saying that these pursuits aren't completely valid circus skills
or object manipulation artforms. But if a line has to be drawn somewhere
that is where the line sits in my opinion.
BUT, and it's a big BUT, if you look closely you might notice that I wrote
that only poi swinging isn't juggling. Is there any reason that poi can't
be juggling? None that I can think of.
In the past I have made up many poi tricks that involve letting go. You
know, the thing that you laugh at poisters about, for being scared they
might drop? Well, it is possible. I've seen all sorts of juggling done
with all sorts of ojects that aren't classical juggling props. People
manipulate strange objects on stage all the time and though sometimes
quite bizarre, nobody complains that it isn't juggling.
So why not find ways to juggle poi? Instead of just swinging them, throw
them too! Before a few months ago I'd never seen a poi swinger throw their
poi, or if I had only once or twice ever. Very recently I've seen a few
good poiswingers not only throw once but do long sequences, repeatedly
throwing, dropping and catching poi. I really like it and so far can think
of no reason why it shouldn't be a classed as juggling. And quite hard
juggling at that.
So the arguments most jugglers have have against poi can be summed up as
followed:
Its too easy but its getting harder all the time, its boring but it
doesn't have to be, its not juggling but can be.
Anger may still arize from poi swingers taking up too much space at a
juggling club. Anger can easily be avoided by thinking about those same
people as poi jugglers. Jokes about cutting strings or setting people on
fire are only funny to non-poi types and really don't help anyone.
I'm not going to say they aren't funny though, I've told and and laughed
at countless poi swinger jokes myself and will probably do so in the
future. But the there is a time and place and I think that during a
discussion with the aim of actively improving relations between jugglers
and swingers might not be the best place.
To finish I'd like to say that I will continue not being interested in poi
in the slightest. I have nothing against poi I just have no desire to
practice it at all. The same as devilstick, cigar boxes, unicycling, club
passing and yoyo.
My last point is backing up one made on the HOP forum. Many of the guys I
have seen swinging poi DO look pretty gay. So much of poi swinging is
dance and movement and if you insist on copying the ladies style, sexy
moves very easily turn into bad mincing. On the other hand, male poi
swingers get a lot more sex than male jugglers so I guess it all works out
right in the end.
Catch you later,
Luke Burrage
PS. not proof reading, blq,ing qll ,istqkes on this Belgiu, keyboqrd;
Nathan
>
> Hello Dave,
>
> I'd just like to thank you for all the effort you have put into your
> article and the discussion here and on Home of Poi. To add balance to the
> 100% negative replies so far I'd like to add this jugglers views on poi. I
> hope everyone can keep up...
>
Hello,
Indeed this is all getting very negative indeed.
As someone who is by no means an expert but acomplished in both juggling
and poi then I believe that both arts deserve respect.
Poi is not juggling IMO. But there is no reason why poi people can't turn
up to juggling meets just as i've turned up to poi meets as mainly a
juggler.
This argument is all getting kinda silly and to flatly dismiss poi just
because its not juggling is stupid. How many times have you been laughed
at or made jokes about because you are a juggler by non-juggling types ??
I know I have on more than a few occasions.
> The joy of both juggling and poi swinging is when you see something new!
> Fortunately for me, someone who used to find poi very dull to watch for
> more than fifteen seconds, I've recently seen lots and lots of new tricks
> done with poi. A lot of them are pretty interesting, if you bother to give
> them time.
Indeed, there are many average poi people around (i'm prolly one of them)
who can't do much more than 5bt weave. Although I like to think I can
present what I can do well. I've seen a few fire and poi performances
recently that have been appauling knowing full well I could do better.
However I have met many amazing poi'ers who come up with some truly
original stuff. Juggling would be very dull if all people did was cascade.
> So why not find ways to juggle poi? Instead of just swinging them, throw
> them too! Before a few months ago I'd never seen a poi swinger throw their
> poi, or if I had only once or twice ever. Very recently I've seen a few
> good poiswingers not only throw once but do long sequences, repeatedly
> throwing, dropping and catching poi. I really like it and so far can think
> of no reason why it shouldn't be a classed as juggling. And quite hard
> juggling at that.
I;ve seen quite a few people who throw poi in much the same style as a
club swinger would. This adds a whole new dimension to the art.
What about staff spinners, especially double staff spinners who regularly
throw (and drop).
> To finish I'd like to say that I will continue not being interested in poi
> in the slightest. I have nothing against poi I just have no desire to
> practice it at all. The same as devilstick, cigar boxes, unicycling, club
> passing and yoyo.
Personally I'm up for trying anything but I am trying to concentrate my
efforts on juggling and poi at the moment so as to be try and respected
for both in both associated communities (which from my experiences are
merging together and I hope will continue to do so)
> My last point is backing up one made on the HOP forum. Many of the guys I
> have seen swinging poi DO look pretty gay. So much of poi swinging is
> dance and movement and if you insist on copying the ladies style, sexy
> moves very easily turn into bad mincing. On the other hand, male poi
> swingers get a lot more sex than male jugglers so I guess it all works out
> right in the end.
Had to laugh at this comment :) Nice one Luke!
Keep on what every you are doing and sod those that don't accept it!
Nathan
btw: on a side note would people please learn to reply properly.
Don't bother including text which you are not directly refering to.
Don't top post.
Use > to quote replies.
Do find a client that wraps replies properly.
onewheeldave
>
> Hello Dave,
>
> I'd just like to thank you for all the effort you have put into your
> article and the discussion here and on Home of Poi. To add balance to the
> 100% negative replies so far I'd like to add this jugglers views on poi. I
> hope everyone can keep up...
Cheers. Don't worry about the negative comments, I've seen much worse :)
Your reply is packed with good sense.
Your point about juggling='objects been thrown with a risk of dropping',
also suggested by mini mansell, is a useful line to draw.
>So the arguments most jugglers have have against poi can be summed up as
>followed:
>Its too easy but its getting harder all the time, its boring but it
>doesn't have to be, its not juggling but can be.
That pretty much sums it up.
>My last point is backing up one made on the HOP forum. Many of the guys I
>have seen swinging poi DO look pretty gay. So much of poi swinging is
>dance and movement and if you insist on copying the ladies style, sexy
>moves very easily turn into bad mincing. On the other hand, male poi
>swingers get a lot more sex than male jugglers so I guess it all works out
>right in the end.
I never know what to say about this one. Firstly is it the end of the
world if someone does look gay?
Secondly, 'looking gay' is a bit of a relative thing and generally
reflects more on the person saying it than the object of the comment.
There's plenty of people who, if they see a juggler, will say he is gay-
simply because he's doing something unusual that they can't relate to.
I must admit that I see poi as being more feminine than masculine, in that
the moves seem well suited to women.
I think that's great because one thing I've noticed about juggling clubs
is that, despite the fact that juggling is as well suited to women as it
is to men, nevertheless there's not a 50/50 participation of the sexes.
Whereas, in poi, there's a closer to 50/50 mix of men and women, and some
of the best spinners are female.
I mildly disagree with your comment about 'copying the ladies style'
although I'm not entirely sure what the 'ladies style' is.
I know that when I started to get seriously into spinning, I was a bit
wary of what I must look like, as it was veering towards being a bit
'dancey'. For a while I tried to overcome it by using chains and going for
a more 'martial arts' approach with low stances and fast spinning.
In the end it wasn't for me, the thing that held me to spinning
transcended any concern with looks and focused on how it felt- emphasis on
very slow practice and an insistence on total relaxation.
I've got no idea how it looks to other people, and no real desire to find
out because it isn't relevant to what I'm trying to achieve.
And maybe somewhere in there is a way that poi can be of real benefit to
jugglers because, one thing about poi is that you can do the moves real
slow. It's not especially easy to attain and seems to elude beginners for
many months, but, with practice, it's amazing how slow you can get them.
Once you've got it the moves and combinations become so logical that it's
hard to understand why you couldn't do them at the start.
Juggling can also be done slow, but there's a definite limit due to
gravity. However, I've noticed recently that I have more ability to slow
down my juggling stuff because (I assume) of all the slow spinning I've
done.
An example was when I recently picked up some cigar boxes and was able to
do the basics better than I could years ago when I actually used to
practice them.
onewheeldave
>clubs. it would be a good act. the jugglers would appreciate the fact
>that they could be dropped.
>if you where to view poi, as a sort of training wheel for club swinging it
>would gain more respect.
I've got to say, that, although I'm sure you didn't intend it as such,
that last sentence is exactly the kind of thing that spinners are going to
see as a dig and a little offensive.
Poi is a totally distinct style to club spinning, despite sharing many of
the same moves. Poi spinning is also not the best way to train for club
spinning because it dispenses with the complex wrist involvement.
I'm a pretty good spinner, but I'd have difficulty doing even a cross and
follow combination with clubs.
I know that straight away, some jugglers are going to think 'Aha! He
admits that club spinning is the more difficult, and therefore superior
art!'
Not at all, as jugglers you all know the importance of decent kit. When
you're pushing your limits which do you prefer, Henrys clubs or a set of
beards.
Poi spinners are aspiring to a certain type of flow which is better
achieved with poi than clubs.
Also, and you may find this surprising, most poi spinners find clubs
visually unappealing- they're not long enough and many poi moves are not
possible with them (eg wraps).
And, as I mentioned in the article, spinners love making their own poi,
giving them the option to have long poi, short poi, tailed poi etc.
To sum it up, poi spinners are very happy with poi as a full
discipline/art as it is, and have no aspirations towards club swinging.
>many people who are poi fans ask why jugglers are anti poi (or some are) i
>think the reason is simple. in all fields of juggling and object
>manipulation, including toss, contact diabolo, devilstick etc. the
>connecting factor is that all the props can be dropped.
That's a useful definition, also mentioned by Luke. However, I have to
ask, why does that make them anti poi?
I can understand why it would lead them to say 'poi isn't juggling' (and,
as a spinner I'm happy with that, poi and juggling aren't the same), but
why would it make some of them anti poi?
Nathan Peterson
> btw: on a side note would people please learn to reply properly.
> Don't bother including text which you are not directly refering to.
> Don't top post.
These two things are really a matter of personal preference. A lot of
people prefer top posting. I usually top post when I am not responding
point-by-point b/c non-point-by-point discussions tend to be fairly
linear. Sometimes I even go as far as doing point-by-point top posting
b/c I've had times where people have missed some of the stuff I have
said when I have done interleaving.
As far as not quoting text which you are not directly referring to,
sometimes when I respond I'm not referring directly to any particular
part of the message, yet I feel need to quote the message b/c Usenet can
be so flaky. I've seen messages before that were supposed to be
responses to something, but I can't really tell what the heck they are
talking about b/c they never quoted anything and the original message
they are responding to for some reason never made it to my news server.
> Use > to quote replies.
Yeah, I'll agree with that, although I don't remember seeing problems on
rec.juggling with people using other stuff. Have you?
One problem that I have seen though is that sometimes people don't leave
a blank line between what they are quoting and what they are replying
with. Some clients take this as being part of the quote and that can be
really annoying.
> Do find a client that wraps replies properly.
Hmm.. I guess I'm more tolerant than you are about that.
Now that I have listened to your requests. I have a request for you.
Would you mind including your last name when you post so that people
don't confuse you with me?
I have a hard enough time keeping names like "Jeff Clark" and "Clarky"
apart. I'm sure other people have trouble like that, and in this case
there is no easy way to tell if you are me or not. In fact, I tried
clicking on your profile in IJDB from one of the messages that you
wrote, and it got confused and said that one of my old posts was really
your first post. I had my last name in that old post, but IJDB dropped
it for some reason.
-Nathan (Peterson)
slammin
>In the past I have made up many poi tricks that involve letting go. You
>know, the thing that you laugh at poisters about, for being scared they
>might drop? Well, it is possible. I've seen all sorts of juggling done
>with all sorts of ojects that aren't classical juggling props. People
>manipulate strange objects on stage all the time and though sometimes
>quite bizarre, nobody complains that it isn't juggling.
Er, can anyone tell me the name of the Russian (I think) juggler who
manipulates/juggles those sort-of poi-like objects? You know, the two big
balls (maybe the size of volleybalsls) joined by a piece of rope? Have
you seen that video? You know, the one where he comes out and swings two
of them, a-la poi, and does a fairly good job of it, but then proceedes to
juggle six of those bad boys? It is totally bad-ass. The props are huge
and while the rope is limp in his hand, when he throws them as triples,
the rope is obviously taught. It is amazingly impressive and very eye
catching, and he has to sort of crank the things around as they come down
in his hand to fire them back into the air. That is impressive. A great
act. What is his name?
Slammin'
The Void
all. It's not juggling, but saying
this is just an observation, not an objection.
I do, however, have a problem with *some* poi spinNERS. Namely spacial
awareness. Or rather their
lack of it. I don't mind how much space a spinner takes up (within
reason), so if i'm looking for a spot
to do some juggling in, i'll make sure i stand far enough away from any
poisters so that they won't
bother me. The trouble is, time after time, within a couple of minutes of
my having started to juggle, a
nearby poister (or staff spinner.... they seem prone to this too) will
suddenly be in my pattern.
Umm... hello? Am i invisible or something?
Jugglers don't do this to me, neither do unicyclists, diabolists, devil
stickers etc etc etc. It's just poi
and staff people who *keep* doing it! Why? What did i do to annoy you
guys? Please, just use your
eyes a little bit more. Thank you.
With regards to some other points raised:
Is poi skillful/difficult?: Well, hell, how long is a piece of string? I
had to run a couple of poi workshops
last summer (Yes, HAD to. ;-) ). In an hour i had taught a bunch of 40 or
so people forward and
backward circles, and switching between the two, on- and off-synch waist
circles, and switching
between the two, that horizontal plane over-the-head-and-back-down-again
trick, and cross and
follow. (I don't know the 'correct' names for these tricks, so sorry, but
that's not the point...).
I could do all the above moves because i've learned a little club
swinging. I could *teach* a couple of
them because i happened to have been around when Michal was running a
workshop, and i heard how
she taught them. (Cheers, M.!)
So, sure, *some* poi stuff is easy. But then again i've seen Michal, Drew,
Peachy Steve, Dev Kev and
many others do some really complex stuff that i probably would have to
concentrate pretty hard to get
my head around.
Ever seen a good poi *act*?: Two spring to mind - Dimitri and Dave
[Spinpsycle, i think, or is that
someone else?] at Bristol convention 2003, and Vincent [ummm... French
guy... one of the Paris
crew.... maybe i've got your name wrong too... sorry] at the London
convention 2003. The first was
technically skillful and really well choreographed and presented. The
second was funny and original.
Henrys or Beard?: Just ordered some new Medium Air, so the latter. (But i
get your point, just not your
choice of examples. ;-) )
The poi acts at Liverpool JC: I don't think the problem was that *it was
poi*. The first act, Neil and Phil,
i'll agree with Mini - it wasn't an act, it was just some nice tricks for
us to look at. But then, hey, it was
a Renegade, and when you announce "Hey! We want people to come and do
something!", you can't
really complain when they do. The second act was just in the wrong
environment, i think. Phil (a
different one) was using LED poi and an unlit firestaff, in a brightly lit
gym with a weedy boombox
playing from across the hall. But at least he was trying to move well, and
he did seem to know what
trick he was going to do next. If we'd seen him perform this in a dark
club, with some thumping dance
music backing him up, it *may* have been a great act.
NamelessNathan : Sorry, but to quote just the bits from the several
different posts i'm replying to
would have been a tedious cut and paste job, and i just can't be bothered.
Hopefully i've been lucid, at
least. I also can't be bothered to use a different client than the IJDb,
so if this doesn't wrap, sorry. I'll
post a joke in a new thread to make it up to you.
The Void
.............
This is possibly my longest ever post....... and it's about POI!!!!! I
think i need a little lie down.....
The Void
He performed at the EJC in Hagen, in '94, and yes, it was a great act.
I *think* his name was Ruslan, but that's a Very Vague memory.
The Void
............
The Void
>
> He performed at the EJC in Hagen, in '94, and yes, it was a great act.
> I *think* his name was Ruslan, but that's a Very Vague memory.
But a good one, apparently.
http://www.jugglingdb.com/news/article.php?id=<CwEpE...@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu>
Ruslan Fomenko.
The Void
.............
My pretty sick..... what?
Little Paul
<lots of blatant flamebait that everyone has fallen for so I may as well>
> I'm into skills, used to be mainly juggling and related (devil stick,
> diablo etc).
That's nice for you, welcome!
> Got heavily into spinning (poi, meteors)
That's nice for you, welcome! Seriously.
> and was very aware of some of the issues that poi caused amongst some jugglers.
About 4 years ago yes, and for some reason luke and I seem to be the
only people who have let it drop...
Move along people, there's nothing to see here.
> Presently off-road/big wheel unicycling and spinning are my main passions,
> also trying to do more juggling type stuff.
That's nice for you, welcome!
> My internet time is mainly with unicyclist.com and homeofpoi.com (both
> superb resources/communities) and I have been contributing to a recent HOP
> thread that touched on the poi/juggling issue.
My internet time is mainly with b3ta, 4rthur and rec.juggling - all of
which are superb resources/communities. I'm not sure why that would
be relevant though...
> I wrote an article which is here: -
>
> http://www.geocities.com/combatunicycle/poi_juggling.html
Interesting, if a little overly defensive.
> Writing that article helped me see the jugglers point of view better,
> though I still disagree strongly with soem of the ways it was expressed.
If by "some of the ways it was expressed" you mean that whole thing
4 years ago where I ended up getting death threats and large quantities
of hate mail because some people missed the point of the LAP, then
well... might I sugest that you grow up and get over it?
> Recent posts have suggested that some of the issues are still relevant
They're only as relevant as you want them to be. I don't want them
to be relevant, so for me, they're not.
> I hope that anyone who wants to contribute will do so in a spirit of
> sincere respectful communication, criticising each others arts will lead
> nowhere.
Good call, shame you didn't stick to it ;-P
Poi, like clowning, shaker cups and videos of 6 ball siteswaps, will
never be to everyones taste. You do your thing, I'll do mine. If we
both strive to do well, perhaps we'll both have a quality product that
eachother will appreciate.
-Paul
Little Paul
> Hello Dave,
>
> I'd just like to thank you for all the effort you have put into your
> article and the discussion here and on Home of Poi.
<snip a very well thought out post from luke which saved me a lot of typing>
> I made a set of double ended poi, with a ball at each end.
...
> Strangely enough, when I performed with double ended poi at a juggling
> convention, most people took them as a joke
When I saw you using them at a convention, you seemed to be using them
more as balls than poi ... for my money, you just had the ballance
wrong and that's why it came accross as a joke.
I hope you haven't ditched them though, there's a lot of scope there.
Hell, just look at where yo-yos went when people started letting go
of the string...
-Paul
onewheeldave
>If by "some of the ways it was expressed" you mean that whole thing
>4 years ago where I ended up getting death threats and large quantities
>of hate mail because some people missed the point of the LAP, then
>well... might I sugest that you grow up and get over it?
No, I was actually unaware of the LAP until very recently. The main stuff
I was aware of was the kind of thing I mentioned in the article which
seemed to be a low lying general attitude of contempt for poi amongst many
of the jugglers I encountered.
As I understand it the LAP was far more of a joke than anything serious?
Humours a strange thing. Many people think that anything goes where a
jokes concerned.
Others think there are limits. To me, as I've got older the expression
'many a true word is said in jest' has profoundly altered the way I see
some of the humour around me.
As I'm sure you know, some people laugh at a joke not because it is funny,
but because it is putting someone else down; it makes them feel better
about themselves.
My impression of most of the poi jokes I've heard is that they were more
excuses for a put down than actually funny.
Your comment about 'getting over it' doesn't really apply to me. I'm not
cut up over any of this.
It's simply that I see the effects still. I feel a lot of it is based on
misunderstanding and feel that I can help clarify things by presenting my
thoughts and encouraging discussion.
Certainly I'm very happy with the way this discussion has gone, it's great
to get some sincere and well thought out contributions from memebers of
the juggling community.
I'm not here to try and talk anyone into taking up poi, like you say, each
to his/her own.
In the same way that you spend much time practicing your art, I like to
explore a few issues on line concerning two of the things that have bben a
big part of my life- spinning and juggling.
Dave.
onewheeldave
>I have no problem at all with poi spinning, or any kind of spinning at
>all. It's not juggling, but saying
>this is just an observation, not an objection.
>I do, however, have a problem with *some* poi spinNERS. Namely spacial
>awareness.
Fair enough. like I said in my article this is something that needs to be
sorted out.
In my experience that kind of inconsideration is more to do with the
individual concerned than the oblects(s) they are manipulating.
As someone who is around spinners a lot, I find it easy to operate around
them because I can tell when they are in danger of hitting me. I must
admit I find tailed poi a bit of a pain though.
Most of the spatial awareness problems I've encountered were from
jugglers- club passers barging in and starting up ambitious patterens with
triples etc. Also, at my club, a couple of the jugglers are basically
clumsy. Great guys, and good jugglers, but they have a tendency to meander
around the hall without paying attention, occasionally through my meteor
patterns.
I think what jugglers should do, if they find poi spinners getting in
their way is, first of all, be honest and ask if they are genuinely
invadeing your personal space (i.e. you're in danger of being hit), and,
if so, then have a word.
Err on the side of politeness, be very reasonable, and explain that
they're tending to get a bit too close for comfort.
As Imentioned in the article, in the case of poi tails, if you can ask
them to wrap them up with rubber bands, they'll be a lot less distracting.
Lastly, as a practical suggestion, why not make a few sets of sock poi out
of white sports socks and tennis balls to have knocking around the club?
Then, when space is at a premium. Some of the spinners can use those and
take up less space.
> The Void
> ..............
> This is possibly my longest ever post....... and it's about POI!!!!! I
> think i need a little lie down.....
This is the magic of poi, its spirit infuses and inspires even those who
don't spin :)
slammin
> >
> > He performed at the EJC in Hagen, in '94, and yes, it was a great act.
> > I *think* his name was Ruslan, but that's a Very Vague memory.
>
> But a good one, apparently.
>
http://www.jugglingdb.com/news/article.php?id=<CwEpE...@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu>
> Ruslan Fomenko.
>
Slammin'
The Void
>
> As someone who is around spinners a lot, I find it easy to operate around
> them because I can tell when they are in danger of hitting me.
Which is why i'll give as wide a berth as i can to any spinning spinners.
> I must admit I find tailed poi a bit of a pain though.
>
> Most of the spatial awareness problems I've encountered were from
> jugglers- club passers barging in and starting up ambitious patterens with
> triples etc. Also, at my club, a couple of the jugglers are basically
> clumsy. Great guys, and good jugglers, but they have a tendency to meander
> around the hall without paying attention, occasionally through my meteor
> patterns.
"They shoot horses, don't they?"
> I think what jugglers should do, if they find poi spinners getting in
> their way is, first of all, be honest and ask if they are genuinely
> invadeing your personal space (i.e. you're in danger of being hit), and,
> if so, then have a word.
>
> Err on the side of politeness, be very reasonable, and explain that
> they're tending to get a bit too close for comfort.
Sound sensible advice. This is what i do, unless i just wander away
muttering to myself, of course.
There's nothing quite like letting resentment stew, is there? ;-)
> Lastly, as a practical suggestion, why not make a few sets of sock poi out
> of white sports socks and tennis balls to have knocking around the club?
> Then, when space is at a premium. Some of the spinners can use those and
> take up less space.
Errr.... you want ME to spend time making poi? For clubs i don't even run?
Okay, the end result you
suggest may be desirable, but i don't think i could justify the ends with
the means. My head hurts.
> > The Void
> > ..............
> > This is possibly my longest ever post....... and it's about POI!!!!! I
> > think i need a little lie down.....
>
> This is the magic of poi, its spirit infuses and inspires even those who
don't spin :)
Back off, hippy! ;-)
Dave, i'll prolly be at the Sheffield convention, so if you see a long
haired guy juggling really pink
clubs, come and ride over my toes on your uni, whilst destroying my
pattern with your poi tails. Or
just say hi. Whichever you think will be funnier.
Cheers,
The Void
............
Thinking of starting a shaker cup/everyone else communication invitation
thread....
Little Paul
> Thinking of starting a shaker cup/everyone else communication invitation
> thread....
That's just sick.
Pervert!
-Paul
Nathan Peterson
> Strangely enough, when I performed with double ended poi at a juggling
> convention, most people took them as a joke and since then I've not seen
> anyone else do tricks with the same kind of prop.
Hmm.. yeah, I think this is a juggler's thing. It's kind of instinctual
for us to want to have something ideal for throwing. About 3 years ago,
when I was poi swinging, I used double ended poi (see COL2 video). It
seemed like the obvious choice, and it was obviously superior to regular
poi in my mind, but nobody else seemed to want to use them. I think
I've heard of a couple other people using them, but still to this day I
have never actually seen a single person use double ended poi. Even the
people that really get into releases, you'd think they'd want to use it,
but they don't.
-Nathan
mineiro
don't know where to start.
it was me that started the thread on HoP. and i must say i was not
expecting such a negative stream of replies either here or there.
lots of good points tho:o)
and point taken mini about the tP fire shows ;o) we get a bit pigeonholed
to tell the truth.. the last 10 shows i have done, 8 of them have been
juggling shows. we just get booked for fire when there are loads of
jugglers around :o)
not quite sure where i'm going with this, so i might just leave and mull.
then come back when i've got a more sensible reply. but just wanted to ask
those (both spinners and jugglers, coming from someone who does both for a
living) who are randomly antagonistic, would you accept that if it was
someone of a different race, for example? a bit extreme as a comparison,
but why judge people on what their personal preferences, when on the whole
what they do affects you in a veryvery small way?
i've asked this on hop too(tho not in the same thread, tho maybe i should)
and have yet to receive a good answer there....
later
R
The Void
> but just wanted to ask
> those (both spinners and jugglers, coming from someone who does both for a
> living) who are randomly antagonistic, would you accept that if it was
> someone of a different race, for example? a bit extreme as a comparison,
> but why judge people on what their personal preferences, when on the whole
> what they do affects you in a very very small way?
Fair point. So are you going to start being nice to mimes then?
The Void
..............
Cartoon man in the real world
mineiro
i used to be @ihateclowns.com which was equally inaccurate :o)
one of my best friends is a mime. honest.
R
The Void wrote:
> mineiro wrote:
> > but just wanted to ask
> > those (both spinners and jugglers, coming from someone who does both for a
> > living) who are randomly antagonistic, would you accept that if it was
> > someone of a different race, for example? a bit extreme as a comparison,
> > but why judge people on what their personal preferences, when on the whole
> > what they do affects you in a very very small way?
>
> Fair point. So are you going to start being nice to mimes then?
>
> The Void
> ...............
Luke Burrage
> Most of the spatial awareness problems I've encountered were from
> jugglers- club passers barging in and starting up ambitious patterens with
> triples etc. Also, at my club, a couple of the jugglers are basically
> clumsy. Great guys, and good jugglers, but they have a tendency to meander
> around the hall without paying attention, occasionally through my meteor
> patterns.
Sorry. Just covertly working on my Gladiators tactics.
Talking of Gladiators, the games at this years ShefCon (just 11 days to
go!) should be something special. Lots of preparation has gone into them
and there are some very interesting ideas...
Luke Burrage
Itsik Orr
> invitation thread
I tried communicating with a shaker cups person once or twice, but for some
reason they could never hear me.
--
Itsik Orr
http://www.juggler.net/orr
onewheeldave
>
> Hmm.. yeah, I think this is a juggler's thing. It's kind of instinctual
> for us to want to have something ideal for throwing. About 3 years ago,
> when I was poi swinging, I used double ended poi (see COL2 video). It
> seemed like the obvious choice, and it was obviously superior to regular
> poi in my mind, but nobody else seemed to want to use them. I think
> I've heard of a couple other people using them, but still to this day I
> have never actually seen a single person use double ended poi. Even the
> people that really get into releases, you'd think they'd want to use it,
> but they don't.
>
> -Nathan
=================
I can think of several reasons why poi-ers haven't made much use of the
double ended ball cords: -
1. Most spinners are attached to finger loops, especially beginners and
intermediates. I prefer poi without finger loops as they make getting in
and out of one handed stuff, and releases/throws easier, but most
commercial poi come with finger loops and that's what people get used to.
2. Although double ball ended poi make complex throws feasible, for the
majority of standard poi moves they are quite uncomfortable. I made a set
yesterday out of tennis balls and cord and felt that the feel of the grip
for normal poi stuff wasn't something I'd come to like. A lot of my style
of spinning requires fine finger tip adjustement and also tactile feedback
from the fingers; having to hold a ball in my hand doesn't work with that.
3. What are often called poi 'throws' are better described as 'releases'.
The throws by jugglers with double ended ball poi sound like club type
throws where the object is sent quite high with one or more spins.
Many of the moves that are getting popular with poi are different and
consist of releasing the poi at a strategic place within its circle whilst
giving it a pull, so it doesn't fly off horizontally. This results in the
poi spinning round whilst gaining very little height.
The skill lies in ensuring that the 'handle' end of the poi remains in
pretty much exactly the same place as the rest of the poi rotates around
it.
'Sock' type poi are well suited to this, and to have both ends equaly
weighted would be of no advantage.
Equally weighted double ball ends are very suited to a juggler type throw
with a fair amount of height, but not for the type of stuff that spinners
are doing.
4. The kind of moves done with double ball ended poi are probably best
suited to a room with a high ceiling, a lot of spinners do much of their
practice at home.
I saw someone on one of the 'Circles of Light' video using double ball
ended poi, sounds like it could be you.
The move seemed to be an alternating release in a cross and follow and
looked very nice.
When I attempted it with normal poi it didn't seem feasable. With some
double ball poi is seemed feasable, but I didn't really persist with it.
Then I had a go with two sets of nunchuks. The secret for me was to catch
each release witha reverse grip (as if you're going to 'flourish' with a
club), the pattern then slotted into place and became very smooth.
Although nunchuks have in common with double balls the fact that each end
of the poi weighs the same, I felt that the main advantage they gave was
the fact that there was a more substantial 'grabbing' area.
i.e. rather than having to grab a small ball, you went for a cylindrical
wooden handle with more scope for error.
Now, having worked on other poi releases I find that that pattern works
well with sock poi. It still feels distinct from all the other releases I
do because it's the only one which necessitiates a 'reverse' grip.
My conclusion here, and this is just my opinion, is that, certainly for
the types of releases I'm doing, the even weighting of double poi ball is
of no real advantage.
The 'feel' of them and the difficulty of catching the balls precisely is a
disadvantage.
Sock type poi I find ideal for the same reasons they're good for going
into one handed moves- the fabric can be grabbed without need for total
precision and it's substantial enough that it gives tactile feedback as to
the state of the poi. Initially I did feel that a little extra weight on
the handle end (not equal though) would assist with releases, but now I've
become accustomed to them.
By the way, if it was you I saw on the COL video, cheers for the
inspiration, I really do like that move.
Dave.
lutkus
> 4. The kind of moves done with double ball ended poi are probably best
> suited to a room with a high ceiling, a lot of spinners do much of their
> practice at home.
If they do most of their practice at home, why would they be at juggling
club, where many jugglers do the majority of their practice?
Alternately, why would their primary practice conditions prevent them from
experimenting with other environments when available?
--
Jeff Lutkus
coleman
some answers to your questions :8)
you said:
> If they do most of their practice at home, why would they be at juggling
> club, where many jugglers do the majority of their practice?
firstly, for exactly the same reason that jugglers book squash courts to
practice in - more space is better.
secondly, for inspiration - the well-lit, high-ceilinged spaces are only
half of a workshop, the other half is the other people there and the
inspiration they provide each other with.
speaking admittedly as an average poi swinger and a crap juggler, i find
that inspiration does cross over from prop to prop - i have a 3 ball
machine-esque move with poi and in the last year have seen poi throws with
tapbacks, blind catches, pirouettes, suicides...
following on from this and going back to the definition of poi as
fundamentally different because there are no drops, i rarely throw a whole
poi but do catch poi heads quite a bit.
now it isn't possible to 'drop' as such because if i miss a catch, i may
still have hold of the string so the ball never hits the floor, but i
consider it to be the same as a drop as it 1. destroys the pattern and 2.
removes the perception of 'complete control' for an audience.
after all, how many of us actually 'drop' a prop rather than just 'miss a
catch'?
personally for me my workshop and home practice time is for different
things.
i use my house to learn 3-5 ball stuff and poi moves that don't involve
long arm movements or horizontal planes.
all the rest i learn at workshops where i have room - especially true for
club juggling and passing and poi that involves lots of movement.
> Alternately, why would their primary practice conditions prevent them from
> experimenting with other environments when available?
that answers your first point question very well actually!
why would poi'ers be at a juggling club?
why not - why would their primary practice conditions prevent them from
experimenting with other environments when available?
coleman. x
ps. just thought i'd take this opportunity to say thank-you for your
website - i have downloaded lots of video from you and the inspiration i
have gained as a result is huge. again, many thanks.
Nathan Peterson
> I can think of several reasons why poi-ers haven't made much use of the
> double ended ball cords: -
>
> 1. Most spinners are attached to finger loops, especially beginners and
> intermediates. I prefer poi without finger loops as they make getting in
> and out of one handed stuff, and releases/throws easier, but most
> commercial poi come with finger loops and that's what people get used to.
Yeah, that's true. I've also noticed that a lot of spinners using fire
poi go so far as to "strap" their hands in b/c they are afraid that they
will accidentally let go of the poi. I'm used to throwing torches
around. I don't see any problem with letting go. I want to let go of
poi if have problems. If it gets tangled, and you have your hands
strapped in and can't let go, you could get some severe burns. Even
when I mention that to people they still somehow think that it's better
than having the poi go flying out of your hands. Go figure.
> 2. Although double ball ended poi make complex throws feasible, for the
> majority of standard poi moves they are quite uncomfortable. I made a set
> yesterday out of tennis balls and cord and felt that the feel of the grip
> for normal poi stuff wasn't something I'd come to like. A lot of my style
> of spinning requires fine finger tip adjustement and also tactile feedback
> from the fingers; having to hold a ball in my hand doesn't work with that.
That must be b/c you are not used to them. I had always used double
ended poi for everything. I found them to be more comfortable than
anything else I've tried. Explain to me what kind of fine finger tip
adjustments you are talking about. I've heard that before, but nobody
has been able to give me any examples. As far as the tactile feedback,
if you designed your double ended poi correctly, you should get plenty
of feedback from the balls. It's going to be different than what you
are used to though. You have to feel which way the ball is twisting
rather than which direction your fingers are getting pulled. The only
thing that my double ended poi has caused me trouble with is one-handed
stuff. I can do it, but it's kind of awkward. I wouldn't recommend
double ended poi for that.
> 3. What are often called poi 'throws' are better described as 'releases'.
> The throws by jugglers with double ended ball poi sound like club type
> throws where the object is sent quite high with one or more spins.
I don't do high throws like that. I've tried them, but they are really
hard.
> 'Sock' type poi are well suited to this, and to have both ends equaly
> weighted would be of no advantage.
The advantage is not the equal weighting, it's having a "better" handle,
and having it on both ends. When I sent in my video for COL2, I had
some moves in there where I would end up switching which ends I was
grabbing. If I remember correctly, Malcom cut those out. I guess he
didn't like those moves.
> Equally weighted double ball ends are very suited to a juggler type throw
> with a fair amount of height, but not for the type of stuff that spinners
> are doing.
No type of poi is well suited to throw with a fair amount of height.
You can throw double ended poi so that they spin nicely, but catching
them without messing up their spin is really really hard.
> 4. The kind of moves done with double ball ended poi are probably best
> suited to a room with a high ceiling, a lot of spinners do much of their
> practice at home.
All of my poi moves were done under a 9 foot ceiling.
> I saw someone on one of the 'Circles of Light' video using double ball
> ended poi, sounds like it could be you.
>
> The move seemed to be an alternating release in a cross and follow and
> looked very nice.
Yeah, that was most likely me.
> My conclusion here, and this is just my opinion, is that, certainly for
> the types of releases I'm doing, the even weighting of double poi ball is
> of no real advantage.
>
> The 'feel' of them and the difficulty of catching the balls precisely is a
> disadvantage.
I doubt that the 'feel' of them is an actual disadvantage. It's just a
perceived one.
Catching the balls takes a little bit of practice, but it's definitely
easier than with regular poi.
> Sock type poi I find ideal for the same reasons they're good for going
> into one handed moves- the fabric can be grabbed without need for total
> precision and it's substantial enough that it gives tactile feedback as to
> the state of the poi. Initially I did feel that a little extra weight on
> the handle end (not equal though) would assist with releases, but now I've
> become accustomed to them.
I haven't used sock poi, but I've seen them. I'd imagine they would
work fine for releases. However, those are quite a different beast, and
if you want to do releases with regular type poi, double ended seems the
way to go. Actually, I think even if you are not doing releases, double
ended poi is the way to go, but that's more of a personal preference.
> By the way, if it was you I saw on the COL video, cheers for the
> inspiration, I really do like that move.
Thanks :-D
-Nathan
Scott Kurland, RMT
> Nathan wrote:
>> btw: on a side note would people please learn to reply properly.
>> Don't top post.
>
> These two things are really a matter of personal preference.
Sort of.
Personally, I prefer top-posting. But mixing top- and bottom-posting is REALLY
annoying. Like driving: Everyone drives on the right, fine. Everyone drives
on the left, fine. Everyone picks their favorite....
Scott Kurland, RMT
> Jokes about cutting strings ...
> are only funny to non-poi types and really don't help
> anyone.
I wasn't joking and I didn't mention cutting strings. But if the poi swingers
get too close, doing (for example) butterfly knife spinning aerial openings
persuades them to back off, especially if augmented with a measuring glance at
their (for example) strings.
> My last point is backing up one made on the HOP forum. Many of the
> guys I have seen swinging poi DO look pretty gay. So much of poi
> swinging is dance and movement
Use a pair of sticks/swords/knives and it looks manlier.