Clowns and clowning
bovrilboy
Gatto perform with circus Krone. Although his act was flawless and highly
polished it failed to impress me as much as i thought it would. His
routine is very "Vegas" and a little too flashy for my tastes.
What did impress me though were the clowns that came on at various stages
during the show. They were very versatile and performed a number of
skillfull interludes. Both could play the saxaphone and trumpet, they
played a tune using water chimes,a tune played with club hammers on metal
shafts, performed a nice hat routine and one of them did some fantastic
manipulation using a tennis raquet as a devil stick.
Now I know there is a lot of "anti clown" sentiment amongst jugglers who
veiw them as nothing more than a bad joke, I realise it can be frustrating
when people constantly ask if you are training to be a clown or are in the
circus but I must say that the clowns in circus Krone were truly talented
and deserved all the applause they recieved.
I was just wondering why there is so much negativity directed towards
clowns? and why do jugglers in particular feel such animosity towards
them? I know Jason has done his fair bit to ensure they are seen as
useless and that your average "kids party clown" doesn't do much for the
cause but i wonder how many people have seen good clowns and can veiw them
in an unbiased light and give them the recognition they deserve?
yours
Andy
--
----== posted via www.jugglingdb.com ==----
Steven Ragatz
>
> I was just wondering why there is so much negativity directed towards
> clowns? and why do jugglers in particular feel such animosity towards
> them? I know Jason has done his fair bit to ensure they are seen as
> useless and that your average "kids party clown" doesn't do much for the
> cause but i wonder how many people have seen good clowns and can veiw them
> in an unbiased light and give them the recognition they deserve?
>
I think a primary reason why many jugglers have issues with clowns is that
they have never educated themselves with performance based clowning. It
also makes them feel important by being able to say that they are "better"
than clowns, mimes, ventriloquists, etc.
It may also be a generational thing. If most of the hobby jugglers are
kids, they probably don't think it is cool to be associated with something
so old-school as clowning.
Too bad, because in my circles, the clowns get paid WAAAY more than the
jugglers...
Steven Ragatz
Colin E.
>
> bovrilboy wrote:
> >
> > I was just wondering why there is so much negativity directed towards
> > clowns? and why do jugglers in particular feel such animosity towards
> > them? I know Jason has done his fair bit to ensure they are seen as
> > useless and that your average "kids party clown" doesn't do much for the
> > cause but i wonder how many people have seen good clowns and can veiw them
> > in an unbiased light and give them the recognition they deserve?
> >
When I practice in public I often get asked whether I am in a circus or
whether I am a clown. There is certainly a strong link in the mind of the
general public between clowning and juggling. I am not sure whether when
people ask me if I am a 'clown' whether they see the association as a good
thing or not.
> I think a primary reason why many jugglers have issues with clowns is that
> they have never educated themselves with performance based clowning. It
> also makes them feel important by being able to say that they are "better"
> than clowns, mimes, ventriloquists, etc.
I would agree with you there. However, I have seen quite a few circuses
where the clowns perform nothing other than second rate slapstick. I am
sure most jugglers would want to distance themselves from this.
> It may also be a generational thing. If most of the hobby jugglers are
> kids, they probably don't think it is cool to be associated with something
> so old-school as clowning.
Maybe young hobbiest jugglers just don't go to the circus? Or, if they do,
they end up seeing second rate circuses with second rate clowns.
> Too bad, because in my circles, the clowns get paid WAAAY more than the
> jugglers...
And quite rightly so. When clowning is done well it is captivating. I have
always admired these performers who can combine such a diverse range of
technical skills with humour.
> Steven Ragatz
Steven, perhaps its time to put on your red nose and white face paint to
up your salary ;-)
Regards,
Colin E.
Harm1
> I was just wondering why there is so much negativity directed towards
> clowns? and why do jugglers in particular feel such animosity towards
> them? I know Jason has done his fair bit to ensure they are seen as
> useless and that your average "kids party clown" doesn't do much for the
> cause but i wonder how many people have seen good clowns and can veiw them
> in an unbiased light and give them the recognition they deserve?
I think these people have just not seen any great clowns yet. There's way
to many people without any skills claiming to be a clown. To me, bad
clowns are like bad comedians; I can only feel pity for them. I was lucky
enough to see great clowns even when I was younger. I feel I therefore
have a much more positive view of clowns then some other jugglers. I can
only hope these people encounter a truly great clown one day that makes
them change their attitudes.
Harm
ultimatewannabe
>
>
> I was just wondering why there is so much negativity directed towards
> clowns? and why do jugglers in particular feel such animosity towards
> them? I know Jason has done his fair bit to ensure they are seen as
> useless and that your average "kids party clown" doesn't do much for the
> cause but i wonder how many people have seen good clowns and can veiw them
> in an unbiased light and give them the recognition they deserve?
>
> yours
> Andy
>
Clowns themselves are partially responsible just because of the nature of
their acts. Classical clowns doing pie in the face routines are not
giving themselves any dignity and that bothers me when people see what I
do and associated it with cheap tricks for laughs. Clearly not all clowns
do routines like this but when people ask if I am a clown, that is the
type of routine they picture.
There is a lot of negativity because regardless of how skilled the clowns
are, clowning and juggling have nothing at all to do with each other.
Some clowns juggle and some clowns play music on stage but no one
associates music and clowning. It is frustrating to practice really hard
at something and have someone else show up to ask "Are you training for
(something totally unrelated)?"
Skill levels in clowning also bother me. There is no technically
difficult clown routine. There are clown routines with technically
difficult juggling, unicycling, handbalancing, devil stick, diabolo,
and/or aerial skills but the clowning as a separate discipline doesn't
possess a clear way to gauge progress and monitor one's improvement.
There is no way to count catches or use a stop watch to measure progress.
To me this places clowning clearly in the 'art' category whereas juggling
is either a sport or an art. I like sport juggling and have very little
interesting in artistic anything.
All that said, I have seen funny clown routines (I think Varekai has the
one with a dude singing a love song chasing a spot light across the stage)
but I have never understood how an association between juggling and
clowning came up.
Mike
millsmess
pleasure to see the best juggler at what he does perform a flawless
routine! You must get out alot to critisize a flawless performance
just because his performance style was not of your liking? Or maybe I
just have to wonder why? strange.
Glad you liked the clowns.
Steve Mills
On Apr 4, 10:41 am, bovrilboy7...@yahoo.co.uk.nospam.com (bovrilboy)
wrote:
josephmcginley
>
> So, i was staying in Munich for a little while and decided to go and see
> Gatto perform with circus Krone. Although his act was flawless and highly
> polished it failed to impress me as much as i thought it would. His
> routine is very "Vegas" and a little too flashy for my tastes.
>
It was great to see such mind-boggling skill, but I was a little
disappointed that the act is essentially the same as the act he has
performed since he was 8.[1]
> What did impress me though were the clowns that came on at various stages
> during the show. They were very versatile and performed a number of
> skillfull interludes. Both could play the saxaphone and trumpet, they
> played a tune using water chimes,a tune played with club hammers on metal
> shafts, performed a nice hat routine and one of them did some fantastic
> manipulation using a tennis raquet as a devil stick.
>
> Now I know there is a lot of "anti clown" sentiment amongst jugglers who
> veiw them as nothing more than a bad joke, I realise it can be frustrating
> when people constantly ask if you are training to be a clown or are in the
> circus but I must say that the clowns in circus Krone were truly talented
> and deserved all the applause they recieved.
>
They were pretty good alright, although I thought the horseback acrobats
stole the show for me (they made a very satisfying clunkety-clunk noise
when they fell)
> I was just wondering why there is so much negativity directed towards
> clowns? and why do jugglers in particular feel such animosity towards
> them? I know Jason has done his fair bit to ensure they are seen as
> useless and that your average "kids party clown" doesn't do much for the
> cause but i wonder how many people have seen good clowns and can veiw them
> in an unbiased light and give them the recognition they deserve?
>
> yours
> Andy
>
Have you really noticed a lot of animosity? Apart from the posturing of
Garfield's persona, and ironic comments on rec.juggling?
Here are 2 reasons jugglers might be pissed off with clowns:
1. Anyone can put on a red nose and call themselves a clown.[2]
2. A clown is generally someone to be laughed at - often the butt of the
running joke during a circus - often to be pitied.
Someone sees me juggle and asks am I a clown... Personally I couldn't give
two hoots, but I could imagine that someone who has trained hard as a
juggler for the sake of 'art' or 'sport' could be annoyed at regularly
being mistaken for the pitiful clown.
I'd guess Jason has plenty of respect for good clowning - though he might
not want to admit it in public.
[1]
I feel a twinge of guilt for criticizing in public a guy who has spent so
much time & effort to create so many of my favourite juggling videos, and
who is clearly the best at something I strive to be good at.
[2]
Just like Anyone can swing poi & call themselves a... whatever it is they
call themselves - hence the animosity jugglers have towards... poi types.
Jay Linn
<snip>
> Steven, perhaps its time to put on your red nose and white face paint to
> up your salary ;-)
<Jay beats that terrible old cliché to death with a very large
Ebola-infected nail-embedded club>
Fright wigs and big shoes do not a clown make. The test of a true clown
is "Are you funny?", not "Do you have a passing resemblance to Ronald
McSoddingDonald?"
I started writing an article for the compendium a while back, entitled
"Why 7 ball juggling is much easier than good clowning", but the draft
died with my hard disk drive. One day I'll have another go. But for now,
it's probably good enough to point out that jugglers thinking that
clowns must have red noses is considerably more crass than MGPs thinking
that jugglers must be clowns.
--
Jay Linn
"Nothing is new here, only ignorance is more rampid."
Jay Linn
<snip>
> Skill levels in clowning also bother me. There is no technically
> difficult clown routine.
<boggles>
<boggles some more>
<becomes dizzy and faints>
> There are clown routines with technically
> difficult juggling, unicycling, handbalancing, devil stick, diabolo,
> and/or aerial skills but the clowning as a separate discipline doesn't
> possess a clear way to gauge progress and monitor one's improvement.
> There is no way to count catches or use a stop watch to measure progress.
Absolutely potty. You're saying that because there is no way to measure
how difficult it is, that means it isn't difficult? Bonkers. Good
clowning requires technique; therefore it is technically difficult. But
sooo much harder than juggling technique, precisely because the
technique is less clearly distinct.
Ask yourself why Steve Ragatz says clowns get paid so much more than
jugglers. Ask yourself whether Grimaldi, Coco, et al were more popular
than Rastelli, Cinquevalli, and May in their pomp, before you even
bother bringing Chaplin and Keaton into the equation.
Dave Altman
> There is a lot of negativity because regardless of how skilled the clowns
> are, clowning and juggling have nothing at all to do with each other.
> Some clowns juggle and some clowns play music on stage but no one
> associates music and clowning. It is frustrating to practice really hard
> at something and have someone else show up to ask "Are you training for
> (something totally unrelated)?"
> There is no way to count catches or use a stop watch to measure progress.
> To me this places clowning clearly in the 'art' category whereas juggling
> is either a sport or an art. I like sport juggling and have very little
> interesting in artistic anything.
Mike, it's true that many people associate clowning and juggling. Maybe
it's children books with drawings or circus posters, who knows?
"It is frustrating to practice really hard...", sounds like a parroted
phrase out of the Jason Garfield, "I hate clowns" textbook. Like another
phrase that Garfield uses when explaining that juggling can be a sport,
"It is...get over it!" Why be frustrated about something that is so
unimportant? So, a stranger asks you a question every once in a while,
what's the big deal? There must be some doubt in their minds or they
wouldn't ask the question. It's not like they are pointing a finger and
saying, "Hey, a clown!"
I've been juggling a long time and I don't get that question from everyone
that stops to talk to me, if you do, you might want to change something
that makes them ask that question so much.
Jason Quinn
> WOW how lucky I would have been to attend Circus Krone and had the
> pleasure to see the best juggler at what he does perform a flawless
> routine! You must get out alot to critisize a flawless performance
> just because his performance style was not of your liking? Or maybe I
> just have to wonder why? strange.
Isn't this a too sensitive? He was just stating his opinion. I'm not sure
what you are wondering about or why.
Jason
Charlie
Seriously though, last time I saw Gatto (York BJC 2000) I wasn't
particularly impressed. Technically flawless yes, but boring.
C
lutkus
> I was just wondering why there is so much negativity directed towards
> clowns?
The problem is the perception held by the general public about clowning.
In the US anyway, many people have seen clowns performing for birthday
parties, but not so many people have been to professional circuses, where
the truly skilled clowns perform. As such, the general population
associates clowns with bumblers who don't have any real skill (unless
wearing odd makeup and large shoes is considered a skill).
Before entering the juggling community, the only clowns I'd ever seen were
the ones without skill, who believe that wearing a costume is sufficient
to make a person a clown. My only childhood memories of clowns include
being very frightened by them. I most definitely want no association with
this type of clown.
If someone were to confuse me for the highly skilled type of clown, I
would take that as high praise. Of course, anyone who can really
appreciate the artistry and performance skill of such clowns can surely
see that I possess none of these qualities.
--
Jeff
fakoriginal
True clowns are captivating and control their audience utterly. This skill
is immensely hard and should be applauded at every opportunity. It takes
years to master. They extract a full range of emotion from their audience.
Unfortunately, most people see the other sort of clowns. The ones who
resort to cheap tricks and cliched make-up for the obvious joke. You find
these at birthday parties for children and pretty much anyone could
perform their acts if they had 5 minutes, the inclination, and very little
dignity.
To be thought of as a 'true' clown is a high compliment, to be thought of
as someone in a funny wig pouring custard down their trousers for a cheap
laugh is not.
fak
Dave Altman
> > You must get out alot to critisize a flawless performance
> > just because his performance style was not of your liking? Or maybe I
> > just have to wonder why? strange.
>
> Isn't this a too sensitive? He was just stating his opinion. I'm not sure
> what you are wondering about or why.
>
> Jason
Opinion, counter-opinion, support of one of them or another opinion: Isn't
that how it normally goes?
Dave Altman
> Good clowning requires technique...
I wonder if clowns get their underwear in a bunch if someone asks them if
they can juggle? Or do they hang their head in shame that they don't
possess the most fantastical skill in the world, which we all know is
juggling?
Do they say, "Call me a juggler and I'll punch you in the face, I'm a
clown, buddy!"? ;-)
millsmess
That was helpful.
Steve Mills
On Apr 4, 12:29 pm, jason_qu...@yahoo.com.nospam.com (Jason Quinn)
wrote:
Kit
puts on some makeup and then thinks, now I'm funny-with no skill at
anything whatsoever. With no skills, they attempt things that they
think "are funny". I've been sorry to see it come to this. On a few
trips to Europe I have gone to many many circuses and have seen some
fantastic clown acts and routines, which there are many of in Europe
and South America. In the US they seemed to go into the three ring
circus, ala Ringling, and the talent left.
Bye for now>>>>>>>>>>>Kit
http://www.kitsummers.com
Chiok
> Jason Quinn wrote:
> > > You must get out alot to critisize a flawless performance
> > > just because his performance style was not of your liking? Or maybe I
> > > just have to wonder why? strange.
> >
> > Isn't this a too sensitive? He was just stating his opinion. I'm not sure
> > what you are wondering about or why.
> >
>
> that how it normally goes?
>
Spot on, hit the nail on the head. Yep, works perfectly.
What's the difference between debate, discussion and arguement?
I've seen some great clowns, not actually seen any bad clowns in person.
The new chair of Gravity Vomit trained to be a clown, perhaps I'll ask him
for the lowdown.
Jason Quinn
> Opinion, counter-opinion, support of one of them or another opinion: Isn't
> that how it normally goes?
I don't know what newsgroups you've been visiting...
Jason
Jason Quinn
> > > You must get out alot to critisize a flawless performance
> > > just because his performance style was not of your liking? Or maybe I
> > > just have to wonder why?
> That was helpful.
I didn't realize you were actually asking questions. I think your first
question reads as a rhetorical statement *and* I thought you were being
sarcastic (and annoyed that he didn't enjoy the flawless performance). I
even saw the question mark and decided it as a typo. I still don't get
what you mean by your second question. I read it as implying there was
some unspoken motive for him to criticize Gatto hence the "strange"
remark. Sorry for any confusion.
Steven Ragatz
>
> WOW how lucky I would have been to attend Circus Krone and had the
> pleasure to see the best juggler at what he does perform a flawless
> routine! You must get out alot to critisize a flawless performance
> just because his performance style was not of your liking? Or maybe I
> just have to wonder why? strange.
>
> Glad you liked the clowns.
>
> Steve Mills
>
>
>
> On Apr 4, 10:41 am, bovrilboy7...@yahoo.co.uk.nospam.com (bovrilboy)
> wrote:
> > So, i was staying in Munich for a little while and decided to go and see
> > Gatto perform with circus Krone. Although his act was flawless and highly
> > polished it failed to impress me as much as i thought it would. His
> > routine is very "Vegas" and a little too flashy for my tastes.
> >
His comments imply that he simply didn't like it as much as he thought he
would. I believe a critic should always be allowed to decide what they
like and don't like, the criticism comes into question when the critic
imposes some evaluation on the act (such as being good or bad.)
If I say an act is "bad", it is a false statement, for someone else could
easily think otherwise. If I say I didn't like the act, it is a true
statement, and independent of what anyone else thinks.
Heck, I could have easily written the exact words. To me, the best
technical juggling is good, but not great. I want to be captivated,
engaged and entertained, not impressed. It is simply a matter of taste
and is in no way a reflection on the quality or integrity of the performer
or act.
I would further say that the general public cares even less for juggling
as a discipline than I do, and have no problem grouping jugglers with
clowns or mimes for that reason. In their eyes, they are all one and the
same. They are all things you see in a circus or on a street corner.
Steven Ragatz
BTW: I write this on behalf of bovrilboy, not because I think Steve Mills
doesn't already know it. I've seen Steve's show several times, and to be
sure, he doesn't just rely on technical juggling - he performs!
Dave Altman
>
> Dave Altman wrote:
> > Opinion, counter-opinion, support of one of them or another opinion: Isn't
> > that how it normally goes?
>
> I don't know what newsgroups you've been visiting...
>
> Jason
>
I meant that is how it goes here normally, but I agree with the always
level-headed Steven Ragatz that has no problem balancing things on top of
his head because of it. I saw nothing wrong with bovrilboy comment nor
Steve's. I didn't think Steve was over-reacting or being too sensitive. I
also think you were right in reading in Steve's feelings (total guess, but
that is what I got out of it as well.) If we were right, that was a
legitimate statement by Steve. A perfect show is a wonderful thing to see
and it is fairly rare given the high technical stuff Anthony does. I think
Steve wanted to throw that in.
ultimatewannabe
>
> ultimatewannabe wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > Skill levels in clowning also bother me. There is no technically
> > difficult clown routine.
>
> <boggles>
>
> <boggles some more>
>
> <becomes dizzy and faints>
>
> > There are clown routines with technically
> > difficult juggling, unicycling, handbalancing, devil stick, diabolo,
> > and/or aerial skills but the clowning as a separate discipline doesn't
> > possess a clear way to gauge progress and monitor one's improvement.
> > There is no way to count catches or use a stop watch to measure progress.
>
> Absolutely potty. You're saying that because there is no way to measure
> how difficult it is, that means it isn't difficult? Bonkers. Good
> clowning requires technique; therefore it is technically difficult. But
> sooo much harder than juggling technique, precisely because the
> technique is less clearly distinct.
Yes, yes I am. Sports all have ways of measuring accomplishment whereas
arts do not. That is the major difference. (Juggling done as an art also
has no method of measuring difficulty because numbers juggling and such
are not artistic) If there truly is a difficulty gradient that clowns
work towards then how is it that routines presented in video form never
say "I worked for 10 years to be able to do this." or "This is my most
difficult routine."
There is also the capacity for natural talent in clowning. That excludes
a certain level of difficulty right there. Some people are natural clowns
and can go on stage and bring the house down with almost no practice or
rehearsing (I've seen it done, I am in a circus). No one has ever picked
up some clubs and, with no juggling background, said 'Well, would you look
at that? I can do 5 club backcrosses, I never knew I could do that.
That's kinda cool, I think I'll put it in my show tonight'
> Ask yourself why Steve Ragatz says clowns get paid so much more than
> jugglers. Ask yourself whether Grimaldi, Coco, et al were more popular
> than Rastelli, Cinquevalli, and May in their pomp, before you even
> bother bringing Chaplin and Keaton into the equation.
Dude, you need to take an economics course. Those clowns are paid more
because there is a higher demand for their product than there is for
jugglers. The notion that a higher paycheck represents a higher skill is
bullshit and you as a juggler ought to have figured that out by now. Ask
Vova how much people offer him to perform and then ask some hack who's
final trick is 3 torches or eating the apple while juggling 2 knives and
the apple. Pay is in no way correlated to any skills except stage
presence.
ultimatewannabe
>
> ultimatewannabe wrote:
> > There is a lot of negativity because regardless of how skilled the clowns
> > are, clowning and juggling have nothing at all to do with each other.
> > Some clowns juggle and some clowns play music on stage but no one
> > associates music and clowning. It is frustrating to practice really hard
> > at something and have someone else show up to ask "Are you training for
> > (something totally unrelated)?"
>
> > There is no way to count catches or use a stop watch to measure progress.
> > To me this places clowning clearly in the 'art' category whereas juggling
> > is either a sport or an art. I like sport juggling and have very little
> > interesting in artistic anything.
>
> Mike, it's true that many people associate clowning and juggling. Maybe
> it's children books with drawings or circus posters, who knows?
>
> "It is frustrating to practice really hard...", sounds like a parroted
> phrase out of the Jason Garfield, "I hate clowns" textbook. Like another
> phrase that Garfield uses when explaining that juggling can be a sport,
> "It is...get over it!" Why be frustrated about something that is so
> unimportant?
Because I hate having the exact same arguements with people over the same
stupid shit. It's like being an actor in a bad sitcom and having to
relive the exact same lines everyday.
> So, a stranger asks you a question every once in a while,
> what's the big deal? There must be some doubt in their minds or they
> wouldn't ask the question. It's not like they are pointing a finger and
> saying, "Hey, a clown!"
Wrong. Frequently they do point the finger and say 'Look a clown.' And
that's not just little kids. I've had parents point me out to their kids
and say 'That's a clown.'
> I've been juggling a long time and I don't get that question from everyone
> that stops to talk to me, if you do, you might want to change something
> that makes them ask that question so much.
Where do you live, because I want to be there. I've spoken to thousands
of people since I started and all of them but ONE have asked about knives,
chainsaws, fire, clowns, or circuses.
Mike
Azrelle
>
> Skill levels in clowning also bother me. There is no technically
> difficult clown routine. There are clown routines with technically
> difficult juggling, unicycling, handbalancing, devil stick, diabolo,
> and/or aerial skills but the clowning as a separate discipline doesn't
> possess a clear way to gauge progress and monitor one's improvement.
You've obviously never tried clowning in person.
I was highly amused at a juggling convention when there was a clowning
workshop being run and about 20 jugglers who came to take the piss were
suddenly stumped at being asked to simply make the others in the group
laugh without using a prop, telling a standard joke[1] or pulling a
silly face. There were several clowns in the group who had everyone
chuckling, and a lot of red faced jugglers who'd quickly learned that
perhaps this wasn't a walk in the park. I'm glad there are a growing
number of clown workshops being run in the UK juggling convention scene
as there's a lot of us clowns out there who feel rather unwelcome/like
second rate citizens going by the comments from your average juggler.
And the gauge of one's improvement is very simple. Do people laugh or do
they just stare? Are they laughing at you or along with you?
I get some odd looks when I mention that I am a clown but I don't "do
children's parties". Perhaps people aren't really thinking of clowns but
rather of children's entertainers when they make the connection?
__
Az
[1]Standard jokes of the type "Did you hear about the break in at the
trampoline factory? The police are springing into action" et al
bovrilboy
>
> WOW how lucky I would have been to attend Circus Krone and had the
> pleasure to see the best juggler at what he does perform a flawless
> routine! You must get out alot to critisize a flawless performance
> just because his performance style was not of your liking? Or maybe I
> just have to wonder why? strange.
>
> Glad you liked the clowns.
>
> Steve Mills
>
Hey Steve,
Dont getg me wrong I am not criticising Gattos performance,I am merely
using his act as a yard stick to compare other performers.His performance
is not what I expected and in my opinion a little dissapointing, nothing
more nothing less.
yours
Andy
--
Little Paul
>
> It was great to see such mind-boggling skill, but I was a little
> disappointed that the act is essentially the same as the act he has
> performed since he was 8.[1]
Does he still have the coyote in the act? I do hope so, I'd pay
money to see a grown Gatto balance a stuffed toy on his head and
throw rings at it.
-Paul
--
Help me collect 100 Signed Jugging Promotional Fotos!
http://100jugglers.org 4 down, 96 to go
Little Paul
> Jay Linn wrote:
>
>> Good clowning requires technique...
>
> I wonder if clowns get their underwear in a bunch if someone asks them if
> they can juggle? Or do they hang their head in shame that they don't
> possess the most fantastical skill in the world, which we all know is
> juggling?
They probably get more pissed off being asked "do you do childrens parties"
To the public, juggler => clown => childrens entertainer
This pisses off both jugglers and clowns. It probably also pisses off
some of the better childrens entertainers.
To jugglers, clown => childrens entertainer
Anyone with any sense already knows that there are good clowns. Clowning
is *hard* - you might not be able to measure it with a stopwatch, but
then it's hard to measure how good a portrait painter is with a stopwatch.
Good quality portrait painting is *hard*
Might I just add that anyone with any sense also realises that good
childrens entertainment is also *hard*. I've seen a lot of kids
entertainers who frankly shouldn't be allowed near an 8 year old.
I've also seen a lot of *very* good childrens entertainers who can
keep a crowd of rowdy, deprived troublemakers eating out of the
palm of their hand for hours.
> Do they say, "Call me a juggler and I'll punch you in the face, I'm a
> clown, buddy!"? ;-)
Sure, why not. Just because they wear a grease paint smile, doesn't
make them all jolly people.
bovrilboy
Hang on, hang on ,I think we are running away with ourselves here. I was
only using Gatto as an example. Circus Krone is a world renown circus and
all the acts are outstanding.No questions.
My point was that i never went to the show expecting to be impressed by
clowns [given their reputation amongst jugglers] but came away being more
than impressed and wondered why there was such animosity towards clowns
when most peoples knowledge of clowns (including jugglers} extends to
nothing more than a red nose and a pair of oversize shoes.
jugglers dont like being pigeon-holed, Im sure most clowns don't either.
yours
Andy
Mutton
> *snip*
> I was just wondering why there is so much negativity directed towards
> clowns? and why do jugglers in particular feel such animosity towards
> them? I know Jason has done his fair bit to ensure they are seen as
> useless and that your average "kids party clown" doesn't do much for the
> cause but i wonder how many people have seen good clowns and can veiw them
> in an unbiased light and give them the recognition they deserve?
>
> yours
> Andy
>
Yes, I never understood the clown animosity. Jugglers are very much
aware that there are many different styles/tiers of professional
jugglers - you got your hacks, street performers, cirque du soleil pros,
etc. So why can't we realize maybe not all clowns are hacks? It's a
double standard.
My limited experience with professional clowns comes from a Cirque du
Soleil I watched on TV. I quite enjoyed the act, even moreso than some
of the others featured! Therefore, I applaud those such as LP, Void,
and yourself who bring this subject to light when relevant and give the
good clowns a good name.
--
Andrew Gradisher
Mutton
> ultimatewannabe wrote:
>
>>
>> Skill levels in clowning also bother me. There is no technically
>> difficult clown routine. There are clown routines with technically
>> difficult juggling, unicycling, handbalancing, devil stick, diabolo,
>> and/or aerial skills but the clowning as a separate discipline doesn't
>> possess a clear way to gauge progress and monitor one's improvement.
>
>
> You've obviously never tried clowning in person.
>
> I was highly amused at a juggling convention when there was a clowning
> workshop being run and about 20 jugglers who came to take the piss were
> suddenly stumped at being asked to simply make the others in the group
> laugh without using a prop, telling a standard joke[1] or pulling a
> silly face.
Really? How did the clowns convey emotion without using facial
expressions? Could you give me some examples of what made people laugh
at the workshop? A clown workshop seems very interesting to me, but I
doubt we'll see a clown workshop in the US fests any time soon, except
maybe for the IJA. A shame!
There were several clowns in the group who had everyone
> chuckling, and a lot of red faced jugglers who'd quickly learned that
> perhaps this wasn't a walk in the park. I'm glad there are a growing
> number of clown workshops being run in the UK juggling convention scene
> as there's a lot of us clowns out there who feel rather unwelcome/like
> second rate citizens going by the comments from your average juggler.
>
> And the gauge of one's improvement is very simple. Do people laugh or do
> they just stare? Are they laughing at you or along with you?
>
> I get some odd looks when I mention that I am a clown but I don't "do
> children's parties". Perhaps people aren't really thinking of clowns but
> rather of children's entertainers when they make the connection?
>
> __
> Az
>
> [1]Standard jokes of the type "Did you hear about the break in at the
> trampoline factory? The police are springing into action" et al
>
>
--
Andrew Gradisher
Dave Altman
> A clown workshop seems very interesting to me, but I
> doubt we'll see a clown workshop in the US fests any time soon, except
> maybe for the IJA. A shame!
If you are interested in clowning, Andrew, there are much better places to
study clowning than an IJA festival. I've been going to their festivals
off and on for twenty-five years and their workshops are mostly juggling
related. Try:
http://members.aol.com/nosetonose/index.htm
A quick Google search will give you scores more. There does seem to be
more in Canada than the US. I may be wrong, but Canada has several. Those
crazy French-Canadians!
Little Paul
> Azrelle wrote:
>> I was highly amused at a juggling convention when there was a clowning
>> workshop being run and about 20 jugglers who came to take the piss were
>> suddenly stumped at being asked to simply make the others in the group
>> laugh without using a prop, telling a standard joke[1] or pulling a
>> silly face.
>
> Really? How did the clowns convey emotion without using facial
> expressions?
There's a subtle diference between "pulling a silly face" and "facial
expressions"
I wasn't at the workshop, but I would expect that participants were
still allowed to smile/frown etc - they just weren't allowed to pull
their ears out, stick out their tongue and go cross eyed!
It sounds like a very interesting exercise though.
As an aside, There is/was[1] a UK standup comedian called Norman
Lovett. Some of you might know him as playing "Holly" in "Red Dwarf".
He used to start his set by walking on stage, picking up the microphone
and waiting. Waiting to see how long he could get people to laugh
without doing anything. People would laugh nervously, the laughter
would build, then die away, if his luck was in it would resurface.
Legend has it, that one night, the only words he spoke in his entire
30 minute, laughter packed set were "thankyou. Goodnight" - nothing
else. No mime, no verba comedy, no face pulling. Just people laughing
at an almost but not quite empty stage.
> A clown workshop seems very interesting to me, but I
> doubt we'll see a clown workshop in the US fests any time soon, except
> maybe for the IJA. A shame!
There is a fest in the US, the name of which escapes me at the moment.
It's very much based on *performance* rather than juggling, mime or
clowning. It has strands that follow all three and more. Does anyone
know what I'm on about? I think the name was somethingfest.
Jason Perry
news:slrnf1976d...@newsteel.resnet.bris.ac.uk...[...]
> As an aside, There is/was[1] a UK standup comedian called Norman
> Lovett. Some of you might know him as playing "Holly" in "Red Dwarf".
> He used to start his set by walking on stage, picking up the microphone
> and waiting. Waiting to see how long he could get people to laugh
> without doing anything. People would laugh nervously, the laughter
> would build, then die away, if his luck was in it would resurface.
>
> Legend has it, that one night, the only words he spoke in his entire
> 30 minute, laughter packed set were "thankyou. Goodnight" - nothing
> else. No mime, no verba comedy, no face pulling. Just people laughing
> at an almost but not quite empty stage.
Norman Lovett is/was[1] 'blessed' with a naturally amusing face/demeanour so
I can imagine that this may have worked for him. Still not sure if I'd have
been happy stumping up a tenner to see that particular gig.
> There is a fest in the US, the name of which escapes me at the moment.
> It's very much based on *performance* rather than juggling, mime or
> clowning. It has strands that follow all three and more. Does anyone
> know what I'm on about? I think the name was somethingfest.
I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not here, but I'll try something
which I rarely do, which is to be helpful. Are you thinking of MotionFest,
which has been re-branded as MiniFest[2]: http://www.minifest.net/ ?
Jason.
--
[1]. You appear to have dropped your footnote *again*!
[2]. Now there's a scary thought.
Dave Altman
> There is a fest in the US, the name of which escapes me at the moment.
> It's very much based on *performance* rather than juggling, mime or
> clowning. It has strands that follow all three and more. Does anyone
> know what I'm on about? I think the name was somethingfest.
Like Jason said, LP, you are probably thinking of MotionFest, which I
happened to go to the last one called that. It was a blast! There were
jugglers there, but we were in the minority. Practically everyone was a
professional entertainer or very serious about their craft, at least. Many
instructors were from the Cirque or equally impressive backgrounds. It was
a very good experience. As the name implies, it was about movement. There
was a clowning workshop that I went to, which had nothing to do with make
up or red noses.
Celebration Barn is another one. I hope to make that soon.
The Void
>
> "Little Paul" <use...@lpbk.net> wrote in message
> news:slrnf1976d...@newsteel.resnet.bris.ac.uk...
> > On 2007-04-05, Mutton <grad...@gmail.com> wrote:
> [...]
> > As an aside, There is/was[1] a UK standup comedian called Norman
> > Lovett. Some of you might know him as playing "Holly" in "Red Dwarf".
> > He used to start his set by walking on stage, picking up the microphone
> > and waiting. Waiting to see how long he could get people to laugh
> > without doing anything. People would laugh nervously, the laughter
> > would build, then die away, if his luck was in it would resurface.
> >
> > Legend has it, that one night, the only words he spoke in his entire
> > 30 minute, laughter packed set were "thankyou. Goodnight" - nothing
> > else. No mime, no verba comedy, no face pulling. Just people laughing
> > at an almost but not quite empty stage.
>
> Norman Lovett is/was[1] 'blessed' with a naturally amusing face/demeanour so
> I can imagine that this may have worked for him. Still not sure if I'd have
> been happy stumping up a tenner to see that particular gig.
This reminds me of Jazz going onto the renegade stage at BJC Norwich, '95.
"Ladies and gentlemen, I would now like to do some juggling for you" were
his introductory words,
after which he started to cascade with 3 balls.
....and didn't stop. After a few seconds there were a couple of chuckles.
Then puzzlement and mild
amusement started to spread around the audience. The odd raucous laugh.
Jazz meanwhile, carried
on with his cascade, saying nothing, but looking out at the crowd. Heckles
began, boos, laughter
began bouncing around at the heckles, at Jazz's facial (non-) reaction to
them, at the "he's not really
just doing that, is he?" thoughts plainly written on many people's faces.
The reactions got stronger
and louder until everyone was chuckling along whilst Jazz, stonily-faced,
cascaded on. After about 15
minutes (yes, *really*!) someone switched the lights off. Jazz carried on.
The lights came back, and
Jazz finally stopped.
....then someone shouted "More!", so Jazz started again, and did another
5 minutes.
Bloody hilarious. If you ask me to name another renegade act from that
convention, then off the top of
my head, I'd be struggling - That's the one that stuck in my head.
A classic example of how *not* to be a hack juggler. Although you could
say Jazz was doing 'nothing',
I think he was manipulating the audience brilliantly through his
passivity.
The same. But different.
The Void
.................
Archetypically himself.
Colin E.
[...]
That was my very first British convention, and my first experience of a
Renegade show. However, I think that the performance Jazz gave only worked
under that very special set of circumstances. The Renegade shows at that
BJC were electric, between Peewee's madcap compere skills and Skate Naked
getting naked, the atmosphere was amazing.
I am pretty sure I saw Jazz performing in covent garden a few years later.
He had a pretty minimalist approach to that show also, juggling simple 3
ball patterns in the style of various nationalities.
I don't think any of the other renegades I have been to have quite lived
up to those of the Norwich BJC. It might be because I am no longer a
newcommer to the scene, however I a sure I have heard others comment that
the atmosphere at renegade shows is not quite what it used to be.
I wonder what delights this years' BJC renegades have in store for us?
Regards,
Colin E.
Jason Perry
news:4614e3b8$0$757$bed6...@news.gradwell.net...
> This reminds me of Jazz going onto the renegade stage at BJC Norwich, '95.
> "Ladies and gentlemen, I would now like to do some juggling for you" were
> his introductory words,
> after which he started to cascade with 3 balls.
>
> ....and didn't stop. After a few seconds there were a couple of chuckles.
> Then puzzlement and mild
> amusement started to spread around the audience. The odd raucous laugh.
> Jazz meanwhile, carried
> on with his cascade, saying nothing, but looking out at the crowd. Heckles
> began, boos, laughter
> began bouncing around at the heckles, at Jazz's facial (non-) reaction to
> them, at the "he's not really
> just doing that, is he?" thoughts plainly written on many people's faces.
> The reactions got stronger
> and louder until everyone was chuckling along whilst Jazz, stonily-faced,
> cascaded on. After about 15
> minutes (yes, *really*!) someone switched the lights off. Jazz carried on.
> The lights came back, and
> Jazz finally stopped.
>
> ....then someone shouted "More!", so Jazz started again, and did another
> 5 minutes.
>
> Bloody hilarious. If you ask me to name another renegade act from that
> convention, then off the top of
> my head, I'd be struggling - That's the one that stuck in my head.
Michiel Hesseling and a toy dog doing somersaults through a hoop spring to
mind, although I think I remember these from the video rather than the
actual event. As you say, Jazz's act was great. I remember Peewee standing
in front of him and mooning him. He just looked down with disinterest, not
cracking a smile, and carried on with his 3 ball cascade.
Oooh, I've just remembered someone else. I can't remember his name but he
was a loud, black, American comedian.
Jason.
--
'I like to reminisce with people I don't know. Granted, it takes longer' -
Steven Wright
Dave Altman
> Oooh, I've just remembered someone else. I can't remember his name but he
> was a loud, black, American comedian.
Unguio? (Sp?)
Charlie
> I don't think any of the other renegades I have been to have quite lived
> up to those of the Norwich BJC. It might be because I am no longer a
> newcommer to the scene, however I a sure I have heard others comment that
> the atmosphere at renegade shows is not quite what it used to be.
Hmm...would that be the BJC where you drank rather a lot, as I remember?
:-)
C
Azrelle
> Azrelle wrote:
>> ultimatewannabe wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Skill levels in clowning also bother me. There is no technically
>>> difficult clown routine. There are clown routines with technically
>>> difficult juggling, unicycling, handbalancing, devil stick, diabolo,
>>> and/or aerial skills but the clowning as a separate discipline doesn't
>>> possess a clear way to gauge progress and monitor one's improvement.
>>
>>
>> You've obviously never tried clowning in person.
>>
>> I was highly amused at a juggling convention when there was a clowning
>> workshop being run and about 20 jugglers who came to take the piss
>> were suddenly stumped at being asked to simply make the others in the
>> group laugh without using a prop, telling a standard joke[1] or
>> pulling a silly face.
>
> Really? How did the clowns convey emotion without using facial
> expressions? Could you give me some examples of what made people laugh
One that stuck in my mind was one gentleman who stood up, cleared his
throat as if to speak, waited for everyone to quiet down.... waited some
more.... and a bit more.... rummaged in his pockets for something....
waited.... then said "thanks for listening" and sat down again.
You probably had to be there to completely understand how hilarious that
was.
__
Az
Colin E.
:-P
I am older and more responsible now!
rdiss
>
> As an aside, There is/was[1] a UK standup comedian called Norman
> Lovett. Some of you might know him as playing "Holly" in "Red Dwarf".
> He used to start his set by walking on stage, picking up the microphone
> and waiting. Waiting to see how long he could get people to laugh
> without doing anything. People would laugh nervously, the laughter
> would build, then die away, if his luck was in it would resurface.
>
> Legend has it, that one night, the only words he spoke in his entire
> 30 minute, laughter packed set were "thankyou. Goodnight" - nothing
> else. No mime, no verba comedy, no face pulling. Just people laughing
> at an almost but not quite empty stage.
>
Sounds like something Andy Kauffman would do.
-bd
ultimatewannabe
>
> ultimatewannabe wrote:
>
> >
> > Skill levels in clowning also bother me. There is no technically
> > difficult clown routine. There are clown routines with technically
> > difficult juggling, unicycling, handbalancing, devil stick, diabolo,
> > and/or aerial skills but the clowning as a separate discipline doesn't
> > possess a clear way to gauge progress and monitor one's improvement.
>
> You've obviously never tried clowning in person.
>
> I was highly amused at a juggling convention when there was a clowning
> workshop being run and about 20 jugglers who came to take the piss were
> suddenly stumped at being asked to simply make the others in the group
> laugh without using a prop, telling a standard joke[1] or pulling a
> silly face. There were several clowns in the group who had everyone
> chuckling, and a lot of red faced jugglers who'd quickly learned that
> perhaps this wasn't a walk in the park. I'm glad there are a growing
> number of clown workshops being run in the UK juggling convention scene
> as there's a lot of us clowns out there who feel rather unwelcome/like
> second rate citizens going by the comments from your average juggler.
Clowns that have something going other than a traditional slapstick pie
routine going for them are fine. I have done clowning and I was pretty
good at it. I also didn't enjoy it so I stopped.
> And the gauge of one's improvement is very simple. Do people laugh or do
> they just stare? Are they laughing at you or along with you?
And there are far to many variables that are out of your control each time
you try to gauge progress. How many are drunk, How many are stoned, how
many didn't sleep last night, How many have a genetic predisposition to
laughter, how many are stupid, how many are smart, how many have a college
degree, how many have seen you before and are familiar with your style?
The list of variable that you cannot control is endless.
> I get some odd looks when I mention that I am a clown but I don't "do
> children's parties". Perhaps people aren't really thinking of clowns but
> rather of children's entertainers when they make the connection?
What they are thinking of is the traditional children's party clown,
which, come to think of it, is a personality most clowns and jugglers
wouldn't want to be associated with.
> __
> Az
>
> [1]Standard jokes of the type "Did you hear about the break in at the
> trampoline factory? The police are springing into action" et al
--
Stallie
millsmess
worried about sensitivity as I was not involved personally, I just
read these (my great day things) and then (but.....blah blah) The
point was this was an unusual day, a wonderful , mystical, magical
day, Gatto, and clowns were in town now Gatto and clowns are out of
town (What was there no toffe?). It has nothing to do with the
specific persons or maybe even events (although I have always loved
Nick and Anthony, in that order) it had to do with a wonderful moment
of greatness. There is a song by a group called "Yes" the song is
called "Circus of Heavens" It better explains what I am trying to say.
Imaginining I was there,
Steve Mills
On Apr 4, 5:13 pm, davealt...@hughes.net.nospam.com (Dave Altman)
wrote:
popstar_dave
>
> I have done clowning and I was pretty
> good at it.
I would most certainly watch your next video if it was entitled "Bad
Clowning 1 - UW"
Dave
popstar_dave
>
> juggling clown:
>
http://photos-744.ak.facebook.com/ip002/v45/237/46/193101836/n193101836_31441744_4635.jpg
>
> stallie
>
http://photos-349.ak.facebook.com/ip002/v47/62/91/193109531/n193109531_31445349_7245.jpg
>
Yikes! You're definately not allowed to do childrens' parties,
Dave
ultimatewannabe
>
> ultimatewannabe wrote:
> >
> > I have done clowning and I was pretty
> > good at it.
>
> I would most certainly watch your next video if it was entitled "Bad
> Clowning 1 - UW"
>
> Dave
>
Maybe I will.
Mike
Dave Altman
>
> It was I, Steve Mills that actually wrote that comment...
I totally...huh?
ultimatewannabe
>
> Stallie wrote:
> >
> > juggling clown:
> >
>
http://photos-744.ak.facebook.com/ip002/v45/237/46/193101836/n193101836_31441744_4635.jpg
> >
> > stallie
> >
>
http://photos-349.ak.facebook.com/ip002/v47/62/91/193109531/n193109531_31445349_7245.jpg
> >
>
> Yikes! You're definately not allowed to do childrens' parties,
>
> Dave
>
And Dave and I find an issue we agree on completely, how odd.
Mike
agedest
A man who did very high stilt walking for a county fair parade later
did a juggling act in full clown greasepaint and baggy constume, which
to me made it even harder to juggle. He was required to use the get-
up to be hired for such venues.
As an elementary school teacher, when the local tv kids' show host
came to do his show at our school, I was the one who took the "pie" in
the face. Trying to go along and help make it funny was an effort
that I could thereafter respect as acting, and appreciate in terms of
the kids laughing, but was not interested in doing again. The host
was a clown with a nose and giant glasses and bad jokes, but did not
juggle; he was also quite mean and not good with the kids.
A middle-aged couple came to a local Juggling Day fest to learn to
juggle, because they had enrolled in a clown school where all clowns
had to juggle. It seemed like it would take especially her much
longer to juggle than the clown course would take, so I wondered how
they would ever graduate.
A fellow who came to a local juggling club was a good juggler who did
juggle as a hired clown in order to be hired. He was a properly
educated and registered clown, the official formality of which I had
not known about.
A fellow in a juggling club now is trying to be paid for juggling. He
has had to learn to do balloon twisting to get jobs, yet is resisting
using a clown costume because what he wants to do and be hired to do
is juggle.
A restaurant I visit too often shows an old Cirque du Soleil video
(with no juggler), and I have only recently been able to watch the
grotesquely over-costumed and over-acting and obnoxiously distracting
damn clowns enough to see the skill level of what they do when they
are actually doing something. Some of the performers could not go on
without them. Their tumbling skills are impressive; but I have not
yet noticed any juggling. The tightwire act is done as clowns, with
the old guy standing on the toe of his very long slippers so he can't
move, "falling" superbly, etc.; so it isn't just jugglers who are
doing clown. And how he can do anything in that insane costume is
beyond me to undersand.
Without "meeting the public" hardly at all, even I have been asked if
I am a clown or in the circus, and some of the questions from adults
seemed to be mocking both juggling and clowns.
The ad sidebar at Google Groups is showing "About Charlie
www.charliethejugglingclown.com"
I haven't noticed a listing of great jugglers who dressed and
performed as what would be understood as clowns, although perhaps some
performing jugglers come close with rude jokes and stunts similar to
WCFields kicking away the boxes as he stooped to pick up one. With
his reliance on "costume" and gymnastics, is Viktor Kee a clown?
-