Unvalidated numbers records & gossip.
Iain Duncan
good, holy, belongs to Barry, and has up to date numbers records as far
as the numbers committee is concerned. This is, however, a free for all
use net group, and as such is perfectly suited to unsubstantiated claims
and gossip.
Well I, for one, want to hear it! Can anyone tell me what the
unofficial numbers records are? As in, "Bruce told me he just got 36
catches with 15 balls, but I heard from so-and-so that Anthony now
juggles 16 chickens while bouncing two bowling balls off his forehead."
Some questions of my own are:
- who performs with seven clubs?
- have eight or nine clubs been qualified?
- what's the deal with ring records, and does anyone other than Gatto
perform with nine or more?
- what are better, radical fish or renegade numbers clubs?
I eagerly await your gossip, heresy, and blasphemy,
Iain Duncan.
Tim Goodwin
> - have eight or nine clubs been qualified?
Gatto claims to have qualified eight (16 catches). No one else claims
to have qualified or flashed nine clubs. But a coupla guys have flashed
nine sticks.
> - what's the deal with ring records, and does anyone other than Gatto
> perform with nine or more?
I assume that nine is not totally uncommon with the number of technical
gurus out there. Lucas is claiming that he can flash 14 rings 70% of
the time in practice [see the latest Juggle magazine cover article]. He
plans to reveal this to the world on TV later this year. Of course, he
has made similar claims about his abilities and failed to come through
(seven clubs, 10 balls, etc at an IJA numbers comp). Who knows. He
could break his own personal best on national TV or he could struggle
for 30 minutes trying to make 7 catches. Albert's approach of
constantly pushing the limit is not unlike a homerun hitter who ends up
with more strike outs than the rest of the team. He hits a few
important long ones from time to time - but deals with a lot of constant
frustration. Gatto is more of a DiMaggio (most consecutive games with a
hit) or Cobb (longest standing career high hitting record) -
consistently nailing his attempts at a high level. And while they were
both awarded Rookie of the Year, with Gatto you also have a few Golden
Gloves and Cy Young Awards to boot.
> - what are better, radical fish or renegade numbers clubs?
Renegade sucks.
> I eagerly await your gossip, heresy, and blasphemy,
Sorry. I can only offer my opinion.
--
TG
"Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water!
And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew
them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does.
-- Groucho Marx
Isaac Orr
Nicky Wallace wrote ...
>JAG has some unconfirmed numbers stuff on his page but I don't have the
link
>handy. It's a good page though and someone else will have the link.
http://users.deltanet.com/~juggler/records.html
Isaac Orr <o...@dynamica.net>
---------------------------------------------
Club Passing and Juggling Simulators site -
http://members.xoom.com/IsaacOrr/
Upcoming Israeli Juggling Convention Site -
http://www.juggling.org/~jerusalem/conv.htm
Andrew John Conway
they could contribute to this thread. It's probably worth mentioning that
Anthony's web site claims that he made 16 throws of eight clubs and not
16 catches. Yes, he probably caught them all, but that's not what it
says, darn it.
I was there when Ignatov was asked if he had ever done more than a flash
of 11 rings even in practice. He said no. So far as I know, nobody has
ever qualified more than ten objects, or flashed more than twelve. I
await Albert Lucas' fourteen ring flash with great excitement.
Oh, yes, one more thing, a correction to the cover story in JW. John
Breen did not juggle heavy wooden clubs. The Breens' clubs were made of
basketwork and were quite light. There was one on display in the history
room at the Pittsburgh festival.
--
Andrew
chris_...@my-deja.com
but I'll tell you what i know. Dont quote me on this
Supposedly, anthony has qualified 8 clubs, It has his
personal records at Http://www.anthonygatto.com ,I think,
Ive head that he is working on 9 clubs and 13 rings, Id like to see
him do that!
Also, I think that Bruce Sarafian has qualified 11 balls, or atleast
came close. I know he siad he got 15 catches and 18 gathers with 11
I dont know who else performs 9 rings, and sorry, I dont know which
kind of
club is better,
-Chris Sutton
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Nicky Wallace
Iain Duncan wrote in message <388CDC3E...@home.com>...
> So, we've all flogged the JIS issue to death, and we know the JIS is
>good, holy, belongs to Barry, and has up to date numbers records as far
>as the numbers committee is concerned. This is, however, a free for all
>use net group, and as such is perfectly suited to unsubstantiated claims
>and gossip.
Okay, I don't know much about unconfirmed records but I'll tell you some I
have heard.
I was told at the EJC 99 that a girl from Sweden could juggle 10 balls for
about 34 throw and catches. The guy (from Sweden and was very sincere about
this) told me she reached this record one and a half years after she first
flashed 10 balls. He also told of mad stuff she could do while showering 6
balls. This rumour is so improbably, impossibly dodgy I don't believe it
myself but the guy telling me about it claimed he had met her and he was so
sure about this and I know he was telling what he thought was the truth.
> Well I, for one, want to hear it! Can anyone tell me what the
>unofficial numbers records are? As in, "Bruce told me he just got 36
>catches with 15 balls, but I heard from so-and-so that Anthony now
>juggles 16 chickens while bouncing two bowling balls off his forehead."
Probably flaming chickens and the bowling balls are made of dark matter.
JAG has some unconfirmed numbers stuff on his page but I don't have the link
handy. It's a good page though and someone else will have the link.
>Some questions of my own are:
> - who performs with seven clubs?
Besides Gatto, I'm not sure. Some guy called Sorin Munteneaux (I know this
time, the spelling is wrong) I have heard performed with 7 clubs
> - have eight or nine clubs been qualified?
If you check www.anthonygatto.com you will see that on his records page, he
claims to have beaten lots of records including qualifying 8 clubs and 8 and
9 ball juggling. While these are not totally confirmed, I think they are
true.
I remember reading posts saying Albert Lucas was in Japan working on 9
clubs, or that he was at a convention trying to flash 10 clubs. If he had
succeeded, I'm sure someone would have heard by now. I also remember reading
some Las Vegas thing on the net about Anthony's show and that in practice,
he was trying to add the ninth club.
> - what's the deal with ring records, and does anyone other than Gatto
>perform with nine or more?
What do you mean "what's the deal with ring records?" ? I'm not sure. I have
heard that Sergei Ignatov (I probably spelt it wrong) has performed the
flash of 11 rings and that he had juggled 11 rings in practice. I would say
it is extremely unlikely anyone else performs with 9 or more rings. No one
has juggled 12 rings yet but what a surprise!, I have heard Albert Lucas
wants to flash 14 rings and juggle 12 rings before he retires.
> - what are better, radical fish or renegade numbers clubs?
They make juggling with clubs easier but sometimes don't look that great.
When I see people juggle 5 radical fish, it doesn't look as good as clubs
with a bigger head, even if they have a very good pattern. I live in N.I.
and have never seen or juggled renegade equipment.
>I eagerly await your gossip, heresy, and blasphemy,
All of my post could be a load of crap but it's what I've heard. Some other
people can probably give you more accurate info, rather than my rambilings.
Nicky
>
>Iain Duncan.
Tim Goodwin
> I just sent an e-mail to Anthony Gatto and Albert Lucas asking them if
> they could contribute to this thread. It's probably worth mentioning that
> Anthony's web site claims that he made 16 throws of eight clubs and not
> 16 catches. Yes, he probably caught them all, but that's not what it
> says, darn it.
>
> I was there when Ignatov was asked if he had ever done more than a flash
> of 11 rings even in practice. He said no. So far as I know, nobody has
> ever qualified more than ten objects, or flashed more than twelve. I
> await Albert Lucas' fourteen ring flash with great excitement.
True. But while Anthony never claimed 16 _catches_ with eight clubs
(good distinction) and Ignatov never claimed an 11 ring juggle, Albert
has certainly claimed a 14 ring flash. If we are going to consider the
claims of these men (checking web sites and asking them directly) then
Albert's claim should be considered as a valid unofficial numbers
record. I don't think Ignatov or Gatto have even _attempted_ 14.
Though - we should also probably weigh the tendency for each of these
men to talk more than they walk. All claims are not equal - even in the
unvalidated world of gossip. I know of certain famous jugglers who have
not been able to produce their amazing hand when called at the table.
Others are more modest and don't rush out to tell the world every time
they do something that has never been done. FWIW, I trust Anthony's
claims more than I trust Albert's. This is not to say that I think
anyone is lying. I'm only referring to the solidity and consistency of
reproducing the claimed feat. I'm not as impressed by once in a
lifetime acts. I'm more impressed by skills that can be reproduced with
some degree of consistency.
Torbjörn Andersson
> I was told at the EJC 99 that a girl from Sweden could juggle 10 balls for
> about 34 throw and catches. The guy (from Sweden and was very sincere about
> this) told me she reached this record one and a half years after she first
> flashed 10 balls. He also told of mad stuff she could do while showering 6
> balls. This rumour is so improbably, impossibly dodgy I don't believe it
> myself but the guy telling me about it claimed he had met her and he was so
> sure about this and I know he was telling what he thought was the truth.
I think I know who you mean (Hanna what's-her-last-name), but when I
saw her she was "only" making good attempts at flashing 10 balls in a
synchronous fountain pattern, and I don't think I saw her shower any
number of balls at all. (Granted, this was 1.5-2 years ago, and the
lightning in that gym took some time getting used to.)
What I did see [*] her do, and which was more than enough to impress
the heck out of me, was to juggle 8 balls, almost certainly qualifying
a few times, and 7 balls briefly while balancing a broomstick on her
chin.
Torbjörn Andersson
[*] We all know how well we can trust our own eyes, right? :-)
TIEMANN BRUCE
"It's probably worth mentioning that Anthony's web site claims that he
made 16 throws of eight clubs and not 16 catches. Yes, he probably caught
them all, but that's not what it says, darn it. "
You might like to know that the current Juggle magazine numbers article
says in an editorial insertion (p.21, half way down) is "The Gattos count
throws from the right hand."
So, maybe he's near what the rest of us would call the 32 catch level with
eight clubs, minus whatever drops at the end.
-boppo
Consider: "A well-schooled electorate, being necessary to the security of
a free state, the right of the people to keep and read books, shall not be
infringed."
Can this be construed to imply that ONLY "a well-schooled electorate,"
say, high-school graduates who are also registered voters, have an
affirmed right to books?
cai...@pop.fuse.net
their act. They are Anthony Gatto, one of the Qian brothers, and Alexandre
Ousatchev. The Qian brother typically does about 10 catches and uses badminton
rackets. He sometimes flashes eight in the show. Ousatchev typically does about
12 catches in his act. I've heard that Franchoise Rachais now performs 7 batons
in her act, but I can't confirm that.
As far as numbers rings in performance, Jian Wen Qian does nine each show for
a little more than a flash and has performed a ten ring flash. Popovitch used to
do nine each show, but he didn't have it in the last time I saw him. Dana Tison
flashes nine in his competition act, but I don't know if it's in his typical
act. Earl Shatford from Australia performs nine rings in his act. Last I heard,
he was flashing 11 rings and doing 7 clubs in practice in the hopes of getting
these into his act. Anyone know anything more about him?
Iain Duncan wrote:
> So, we've all flogged the JIS issue to death, and we know the JIS is
> good, holy, belongs to Barry, and has up to date numbers records as far
> as the numbers committee is concerned. This is, however, a free for all
> use net group, and as such is perfectly suited to unsubstantiated claims
> and gossip.
> Well I, for one, want to hear it! Can anyone tell me what the
> unofficial numbers records are? As in, "Bruce told me he just got 36
> catches with 15 balls, but I heard from so-and-so that Anthony now
> juggles 16 chickens while bouncing two bowling balls off his forehead."
> Some questions of my own are:
> - who performs with seven clubs?
> - have eight or nine clubs been qualified?
> - what's the deal with ring records, and does anyone other than Gatto
> perform with nine or more?
> - what are better, radical fish or renegade numbers clubs?
>
> I eagerly await your gossip, heresy, and blasphemy,
>
> Iain Duncan.
Michael Ferguson
Andersson) wrote:
>"Nicky Wallace" <ni...@ireallydontcare.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> I was told at the EJC 99 that a girl from Sweden could juggle 10 balls for
>> about 34 throw and catches. The guy (from Sweden and was very sincere about
>> this) told me she reached this record one and a half years after she first
>> flashed 10 balls. He also told of mad stuff she could do while showering 6
>> balls. This rumour is so improbably, impossibly dodgy I don't believe it
>> myself but the guy telling me about it claimed he had met her and he was so
>> sure about this and I know he was telling what he thought was the truth.
>
>I think I know who you mean (Hanna what's-her-last-name),
Hanna Lundgren from Uppsala, Sweden.
> but when I
>saw her she was "only" making good attempts at flashing 10 balls in a
>synchronous fountain pattern, and I don't think I saw her shower any
>number of balls at all. (Granted, this was 1.5-2 years ago, and the
>lightning in that gym took some time getting used to.)
>
>What I did see [*] her do, and which was more than enough to impress
>the heck out of me, was to juggle 8 balls, almost certainly qualifying
>a few times, and 7 balls briefly while balancing a broomstick on her
>chin.
I met Hanna at the IJA convention in Pittsburgh in 1997. Since then I've
had the opportunity to chat with her a few times on the telephone about her
numbers juggling when she's phoned me to order beanbags.
I can recall talking to Hanna in March of 1998, when she told me that she
had only once managed 10 catches with 10 balls and had only once gotten 18
"throws" with 9 balls. The next (and last) time that I talked to her was
about 9 months ago, and she said then that she hadn't made any significant
progress with her numbers juggling since the last time we'd talked in March
1998.
The story about her getting 34 catches with 10 balls is surely bogus, but
hopefully such an apocryphal story won't cause her any grief, since she
certainly does have numbers juggling skills.
--
Michael Ferguson (a.k.a. Fergie)
Alan Morgan
Nicky Wallace <ni...@ireallydontcare.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>I was told at the EJC 99 that a girl from Sweden could juggle 10 balls for
>about 34 throw and catches. The guy (from Sweden and was very sincere about
>this) told me she reached this record one and a half years after she first
>flashed 10 balls. He also told of mad stuff she could do while showering 6
>balls. This rumour is so improbably, impossibly dodgy I don't believe it
>myself but the guy telling me about it claimed he had met her and he was so
>sure about this and I know he was telling what he thought was the truth.
Belief that something is true in no way equates to it being true. I suspect
that Hannah can do 34 catches of 8 balls and has worked on 10 and the nice
guy from Sweden comingled them.
I've met people who swear they've seen me get more than a flash with 11 balls.
They are (alas) wrong. What they saw was me work (perhaps that should be
"work". Or """""work""""") on 11 balls and then get more than a flash with *9*.
If someone wants to start rumors about me, why can't it be about how
incredibly sexy and delightful I am?
>I remember reading posts saying Albert Lucas was in Japan working on 9
>clubs, or that he was at a convention trying to flash 10 clubs. If he had
>succeeded, I'm sure someone would have heard by now. I also remember reading
>some Las Vegas thing on the net about Anthony's show and that in practice,
>he was trying to add the ninth club.
I'll extend the same courtesy to Albert that I do to Anthony. Show
me some video or shut the hell up.
>> - what's the deal with ring records, and does anyone other than Gatto
>>perform with nine or more?
>
>What do you mean "what's the deal with ring records?" ? I'm not sure. I have
>heard that Sergei Ignatov (I probably spelt it wrong) has performed the
>flash of 11 rings and that he had juggled 11 rings in practice. I would say
>it is extremely unlikely anyone else performs with 9 or more rings. No one
>has juggled 12 rings yet but what a surprise!, I have heard Albert Lucas
>wants to flash 14 rings and juggle 12 rings before he retires.
Well sure, who doesn't?
I believe that Anthony has performed more than 9 rings, although I doubt that it
would be more than a flash and his act in Vegas was just (just!) 9 rings. I would
imagine that there are quite a few people who perform a flash of 9 rings (Popovitch,
Lucas, and one of the Qian brothers come to mind) but more than that is really
pushing it.
>> - what are better, radical fish or renegade numbers clubs?
I think both work pretty well for numbers (although I prefer Renegades)
and I think they are a waste of time for <= 5.
Alan
Iain Duncan
Alan said:
> I'll extend the same courtesy to Albert that I do to Anthony. Show
> me some video or shut the hell up.
>
Well, has Anthony actually ever made any public unsubstantiated claims?
It seems Lucas is known for it, whether true or not I won't hazard a
guess, but the stuff on Anthony's website is all from his dad, is it
not? The only thing that even sounded like it came from him was,
"Thanks for visiting my web-site." Seems to me that Gatto would prefer
to be the quiet ass-kicker who blows every one away when he gets around
to it.
And who can blame Nick; the web-site is promo! I'd tell people in my
promo that I broke records if it was true but not publicly accepted.
> >> - what are better, radical fish or renegade numbers clubs?
>
> I think both work pretty well for numbers (although I prefer Renegades)
> and I think they are a waste of time for <= 5.
>
> Alan
Here's the catch, I have tiny hands. I'm short, and my fingers are short
for my size! Currently I'm working on five with Beards, which have
thinner handles than my Todd Smiths, but my right hand actually cramps
up from launching three. ( I can barely reach an octave, if you play
piano. ) I really just want something light with thin handles; do you
know which have thinner handles? I will probably be working on 6 by the
time I can afford to buy any more any way.
Oh yeah, I heard you're dead sexy.
Thanks,
Iain.
Jake Cooper
Here here!
I've a different question. I seem to be a larger guy, but a worse juggler
than Iain. I have big enough hands to hold whatever, but I can't figure out
how to hold 3 clubs in one hand. It seems like this might be something I
should learn at a convention (it might be too hard to describe). Maybe if
someone had one of those PC cameras that goes on your monitor (like I do)
and knows ways to hold various amounts of balls/clubs/rings (which I don't),
they could take some pictures of just their hands holding the props
correctly and putting it up on some sight. Come to think of it, that would
be an excellent idea! Anyone up for it? I really can't 'cause I have no
sight, nor do can I hold >4 balls, >3 rings, or >2 clubs in one hand. Any
takers?
Jake Cooper
Jake Cooper
"Jake Cooper" <JL...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:kQtl4.207$Vy.2...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > Oh yeah [...] Jake Cooper [...], I heard you're dead sexy.
>
> Here here!
>
> I've a different question. I seem to be a larger guy, but a worse juggler
> than Iain. I have big enough hands to hold whatever, but I can't figure
out
> how to hold 3 clubs in one hand. It seems like this might be something I
> should learn at a convention (it might be too hard to describe). Maybe if
> someone had one of those PC cameras that goes on your monitor (like I do)
> and knows ways to hold various amounts of balls/clubs/rings (which I
don't),
> they could take some pictures of just their hands holding the props
> be an excellent idea! Anyone up for it? I really can't 'cause I have no
> takers?
>
> Jake Cooper
Geez, a juggler with no sight. That'd be so very, very impressive!
Leif_Pettersen
> Here's the catch, I have tiny hands. I'm short, and my fingers are
short
> for my size!
Lain,
I hear you bro, I'm not short per se (5 foot 8 inches). but I have
inherited my father's, little, stubby fingers. My wife has longer
fingers than I do. It really sucks. I didn't have too much trouble
picking up 5 clubs with the regular Dube Europeans. What I am having
trouble with is 7 and 9 balls. Seven I can hold well enough for the
start, but trying to stop and catch them all is pure hell. If I get
lucky enough to gather the first 6 in an organized fashion, I can just
sandwich catch the 7th, without too much trouble, but often, it's a mad,
panicked grab and gather, with balls cradled in my arms, trapped against
my chest and shoulders, maybe one between the legs… It's not pretty.
Nine is a different story. I can BARELY hold nine 2.3 leather Fergies.
This requires me straining all my fingers around the balls and causes
pain and cramping after about 20 minutes of practice. As you can guess,
getting those first 9 throws off accurately is about as likely as a
sober snowmobiler. On the rare occasions that I can get that mess
cleanly in the air, I'm good for at least a qualifying run. I won't
even talk about the gather. I don't even try. People just know give me
a good 20 foot diameter circle of space when I'm practicing nine in
order to avoid getting plunked on the head.
Ultimately, our stubby digits just mean using very small props and extra
practice and frustration for those damn numbers. Keep it up!
Leif
John J. Lee
> > Here's the catch, I have tiny hands. I'm short, and my fingers are
> short
> > for my size!
[...]
> Nine is a different story. I can BARELY hold nine 2.3 leather Fergies.
> This requires me straining all my fingers around the balls and causes
> pain and cramping after about 20 minutes of practice. As you can guess,
[...]
> Ultimately, our stubby digits just mean using very small props and extra
> practice and frustration for those damn numbers. Keep it up!
[...]
A bad workman blames his tools.
I remember thinking 'I can't even hold seven balls at once let alone
throw them' and err, well I still can't keep them going very long but I
can certainly catch seven reliably. Nine is just more practice, you'll
find there *is* room there if you know how to use it.
You do want this kind of thing:
o
o o
o
rather than the pyramid type thing for the first four in your dominant
hand, so you have somewhere to put the fifth - so if you don't already do
that, that's something to work on with seven.
I don't know if I have small hands or not; relatively stubby little
fingers though I think.
John
(who still hasn't tried nine balls really, so this is partially
theoretical advice)
Iain Duncan
>
> On Tue, 1 Feb 2000, Leif_Pettersen wrote:
>
> > Nine is a different story. I can BARELY hold nine 2.3 leather Fergies.
> > This requires me straining all my fingers around the balls and causes
> > pain and cramping after about 20 minutes of practice. As you can guess,
> [...]
> > Ultimately, our stubby digits just mean using very small props and extra
> > practice and frustration for those damn numbers. Keep it up!
> [...]
>
> A bad workman blames his tools.
>
> I remember thinking 'I can't even hold seven balls at once let alone
> throw them' and err, well I still can't keep them going very long but I
> can certainly catch seven reliably. Nine is just more practice, you'll
> find there *is* room there if you know how to use it.
>
>
> fingers though I think.
>
> John
> (who still hasn't tried nine balls really, so this is partially
> theoretical advice)
John,
If you haven't "really" tried nine balls, and you don't have small
hands, than your comments come across as arrogant and unfounded. What
I, and I believe Leif, are doing is taking into account our genetic
starting points as regard our training practices. To ignore the fact
that small hands necessitate different props and training would simply
be stupid. I happen to be able to move my arms more quickly than most,
probably a combination of high percentage of fast twitch fibres and the
greater power to size ratio of smaller athletes. This means that I
always have to fight to slow down, because it is easy for me to go to
fast. I'd be dumb to ignore this, just as athletes in other sports
would be stupid to ignore their own genetic starting points. Neither
Leif, nor I, said "I can't juggle numbers because my hands are small."
If I tried to learn six or seven clubs with regular handles, it would
take me much longer than if I used props scaled to my own proportions. I
practice frequently with Sling who has MUCH bigger hands than me, and he
can definately catch three clubs or balls in one hand more easily than
I. Ever looked at skiers and their skis? Pool players and their cues?
Iain.
( Who will one day perform seven with three inch stage balls,
ending when someone else catches them in a giant net. ;) )
Alan Morgan
Iain Duncan <iaind...@home.com> wrote:
>> >> - what are better, radical fish or renegade numbers clubs?
>>
>> I think both work pretty well for numbers (although I prefer Renegades)
>> and I think they are a waste of time for <= 5.
>
>Here's the catch, I have tiny hands. I'm short, and my fingers are short
>for my size! Currently I'm working on five with Beards, which have
>thinner handles than my Todd Smiths, but my right hand actually cramps
>up from launching three. ( I can barely reach an octave, if you play
>piano. ) I really just want something light with thin handles; do you
>know which have thinner handles? I will probably be working on 6 by the
>time I can afford to buy any more any way.
You might try holding the clubs a different way. I dislike this method,
but some people hold them in a sort of triangle. This is easier to get
your fingers around (it doesn't scale well to 7 clubs, but most of us
will never get to the stage where that is a problem). I wouldn't suggest
overworking your hands, but you'd be surprised what practice can
do. I had difficulty starting 5 clubs when I first started off and
I'm 6'3'' with averaged sized hands for my height. Several years down the
road it just isn't a problem.
Gripping the last club with only the tips of your fingers can help matters
(although you lose something in terms of control).
Given a choice between Radical Fish and Renegade numbers for 5 clubs,
I woiuld pick Fish in a second. Renegade numbers are far too light
and spin to easily to work well with 5 (for me, at least). Fish are
well balanced for 5, my objection to them is on aesthetic grounds.
>Oh yeah, I heard you're dead sexy.
Damn right.
Alan
Iain Duncan
Thanks Alan,
Actually, I already do the triangle thing, and the damn club is still
in just the tips of my fingers! I got a chance to try the renegades, and
loved the thin handles, but did find them too spinny, so thanks for the
tip, I'll try to get my grubby little hands on some fish. I can start
five with beards, but it's such a pain in the ass. It seems that if I
ever get to seven I'll be logging some serious hours on the launch.
Thanks, Iain.
Isaac Orr
>Ultimately, our stubby digits just mean using very small props and extra
>practice and frustration for those damn numbers. Keep it up!
Actually, my definitely non-statistical observations of jugglers of various
ages do not indicate any correlation at all between digit length and
swiftness of learning, say, seven balls. I've seen so many kids (with,
needless to say, kids' hands) pick it up (releasing and catching included
:-), and so many big persons fail to do so. I am totally convinced that
there are parameters far more weighty than size. I'm not saying "size
doesn't count", I'm saying "sized doesn't count *for much*". I think
technique, perseverance, talent, attentiveness, etc. counts for much more.
How big do you think Anthony Gatto's hands were on the ancient photograph
that appeared on page 46 of the Jan/Feb '99 issue of JUGGLE? The balls he's
using aren't too small either, and they are silicones, not beanbags! Well, I
know, I should know better than to bring proof from the exceptional, but I
thinks it shows the point.
Iain Duncan
Isaac Orr wrote:
>
> Actually, my definitely non-statistical observations of jugglers of various
> ages do not indicate any correlation at all between digit length and
> swiftness of learning, say, seven balls. I've seen so many kids (with,
> needless to say, kids' hands) pick it up (releasing and catching included
> :-), and so many big persons fail to do so. I am totally convinced that
> there are parameters far more weighty than size. I'm not saying "size
> doesn't count", I'm saying "sized doesn't count *for much*". I think
> technique, perseverance, talent, attentiveness, etc. counts for much more.
>
> How big do you think Anthony Gatto's hands were on the ancient photograph
> that appeared on page 46 of the Jan/Feb '99 issue of JUGGLE? The balls he's
> using aren't too small either, and they are silicones, not beanbags! Well, I
> know, I should know better than to bring proof from the exceptional, but I
> thinks it shows the point.
>
> Isaac Orr <o...@dynamica.net>
Actually Isaac, it doesn't show the point at all. If you check the
renegade web-site, you will discover that the thin handled numbers clubs
were designed specifically for Anthony's small hands, so that he could
learn with smaller props, and THEN transfer to larger ones. Obviously
Nick thinks Leif and I have the right idea. Have you tried numbers with
large stage balls? Here's the reality (and pretty self-evident I
thought):
If large juggler A) has a finger span and arm span seven sixths the
size of mine (not improbable, one of my partners certainly does) than
juggling five 3.5 inch stage balls is physically the same for him as me
juggling five 3 inch stage balls. Well, I can certainly say without
hesitation that for me, 3.5 inch stage balls are a hell of a lot harder
than 3 inch stage balls, and I'd hate to try and learn numbers with
them, though I can do it well enough now that five balls is under
control.
A second (I thought) self-evident reality is that mass produced props
will be manufactured for the AVERAGE size demanded. I have coached kids
at a circus school, and they learn much faster with props scaled to
their size. Unfortunately, club manufacturing Using Anthony's prowess as
an example is as silly as me saying, "Look, I do five 3.5 inch stage
balls with my tiny hands, so size makes little to no difference."
Neither Leif nor I are saying we can't learn numbers because our hands
are too small, but if you're trying to tell me that the prop size does
not make a difference when learning something as hard as five clubs or
seven balls with small hands, then I can tell you from personal
experience that you are very wrong. I can juggle five balls very well (
over five hundred catches ) and can qualify seven easily, but I still
can't catch three 3 inch stage balls in one hand with any reliability at
all!
If you were right, why would numbers clubs have thin handles?
Iain of the very small hands. ;') (nose out of joint)
Matt Shacklady
>
> If you haven't "really" tried nine balls, and you don't have > small hands, than your comments come across as arrogant and unfounded.
Pugel sticks at dawn! :)
--
Matt
Leif_Pettersen
starting seven and making a qualifying run or better, I'm right around
85% (after 10 years of practicing it). The gather, however, can run the
gambit from surgically clean to wild and desperate, though I suppose
this is also a reflection on my throwing ability. I am without a doubt
a "catcher". My throws, by juggler standards, can be painful. Ask my
passing partner. I make up for that, at least in my solo juggling, by
being a superb catcher. However, as I'm sure you are aware, when a
seven pattern starts to go bad, you could be a superb catcher with 4
arms and still flub the gather, whereas with five I have a little more
wiggle room in my stunted hands for desperate, last ditch, snatching of
errant throws. When gathering seven, and particularly nine, desperate,
last ditch, snatching will usually only succeed in batting the ball
across the room, so to save me the time of walking around the gym and
scooping up balls, I usually just let all 9 rain down around me, only
catching anything that lands conveniently near me.
I've been toying with nine balls for 5 years now. With my usual half
assed practicing schedule, I have improved significantly, but very
slowly. It will probably never be seriously performable. Even if I
ever got to a point in my life where I was at 50% qualifying nine (ha
ha!), I will forever be a victim of not being able to gather them all
cleanly. I think in 5 years, I've gathered all nine, qualifying run or
not, about a half dozen times. Each time was clearly by accident. It
just ain't happening with these hands, until I start doing the gather
with a leaf bag attached to my belt.
On the subject of starting nine, for the dominant hand (holding 5), I
use the diamond hold with a ball balanced on top. Left hand I use the
triangle with a ball on top. I admit, the start is very, very hard
(hell, just stuffing all nine in my hands can take several moments of
careful arrangement) and I only get the balls up in the pattern between
10 to 20 percent of the time, but there is physically no other way I can
hold and launch all nine with any measure of control.
I have tried with 2.2 Fergies, but they proved to be a little too light
and bouncy for my taste, making catching even more of a challenge than
it already is with big numbers.
Leif
Iain Duncan
> On the subject of starting nine, for the dominant hand (holding 5), I
> use the diamond hold with a ball balanced on top. Left hand I use the
> triangle with a ball on top. I admit, the start is very, very hard
> (hell, just stuffing all nine in my hands can take several moments of
> careful arrangement) and I only get the balls up in the pattern between
> 10 to 20 percent of the time, but there is physically no other way I can
> hold and launch all nine with any measure of control.
>
> I have tried with 2.2 Fergies, but they proved to be a little too light
> and bouncy for my taste, making catching even more of a challenge than
> it already is with big numbers.
>
> Leif
>
Hey Leif,
I hear ya on the arranging in the hand, I have to arrange seven fergies
properly using the left to arrange four in my right, so that the tips of
some fingers are on each ball or two will come out instead of one. I
can't juggle seven just fine, though I'm optimistic about it being
performable by the summer, and am getting some consecutive clean runs
now. Have you thought of giving the fergies another try? At first I
thought they were too light and bouncy as well, but with a little time I
adapted to that and now I love them for seven. I find they are very easy
to quickly get out of a catching hand, and most importantly, they aren't
impossible to catch four in one hand. ( Which I can't do reliably with
regular squeezit type beanbags ) Also, I can get four held tight for the
launch, and the lightness means less fatigue when practicing.
Later,
Iain.
Leif_Pettersen
I can't believe it, but you may have even stubbier fingers than I do.
Perhaps it's just ten years of straining my fingers around those balls,
but holding the four in my dominant hand for starting seven is not
really a problem for me. With the three in a triangle and the forth on
top, I can keep a pretty good grip on the whole thing. When doing nine
and trying to stuff five in the dominant hand (four balls in a diamond
and one on top), that top ball is just balancing up there. No fingers
are touching it and that first throw is inevitably ugly as hell. And
the inadvertent launching of 2 or balls from the same hand at the same
time is a constant annoyance. It usually happens when my hands are
tired and hurting from the strain of holding five or if I didn't arrange
the five in my hand carefully enough. Just more obstacles to an already
ridiculously hard trick that no sane person should waste their time on.
When I think about all the other tricks and new props I could have
mastered in the time I've spent on nine balls, I start to feel really
foolish. Oh well, we all have our poisons. Mine are numbers and club
passing.
I never abandoned Fergies. I just upgraded to 2.3 leather from 2.2
cotton. The 2.3s, despite making the packing of five in one hand even
more difficult, are significantly easier to catch once I get the pattern
rolling. I gave the 2.2s a go for about 2 years and it never got
easier. Those little suckers would just pop right out of my hands
before I could close my fingers around them. You're probably saying,
"But Leif, I thought you said you were a 'catcher'?" Well, as amazing a
catcher as I can be, my hands just never adjusted to the 2.2s. Plus, at
some point I rolled the cotton Fergies through some nasty substance
(they had, after all, been dropped on some of the filthiest surfaces in
Europe, Africa and Mexico over the course of those 2 years) and they
started giving me an allergic reaction whenever I touched the balls.
Uncontrollable sneezing, burning eyes, nose running… it was pretty
nasty and I've been tested twice and they can't find anything that I'm
outright allergic to, making this reaction even more unsettling. I
decided it was a sign to trash the 2.2s.
Later.
John J. Lee
[Altavista: +pugel +stick ...
:-)))
]
For those anxiously waiting for data on this, the news is: 189mm from the
tip of my middle finger to the first wrinkle on my wrist, at full stretch.
Iain? No smiley, I'm actually interested to know!
(189mm = 7 and four ninths inches for those stuck in the past)
5 club singles: tried it recently and found to my great suprise that it
felt quite doable (though didn't actually last that long). Of course,
that never means much with this kind of trick - in three years time I'll
just be at yet another in the long series of 'almost there' moments.
John
John J. Lee
> "John J. Lee" wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, 1 Feb 2000, Leif_Pettersen wrote:
[...]
> > [...]
> > > Ultimately, our stubby digits just mean using very small props and extra
> > > practice and frustration for those damn numbers. Keep it up!
> > [...]
> >
> > A bad workman blames his tools.
[missing smiley goes here]
[...]
> John,
> If you haven't "really" tried nine balls, and you don't have small
> hands, than your comments come across as arrogant and unfounded. What
[...]
Eek. Sorry! My turn to forget the winking smiley
<humour>Son, arrogance can be useful, and when you grow up to be an
experienced juggler like some of us maybe you'll come to understand
that.</humour>
Seriously, though, 'helpful' advice like:
Problem Answer
I keep getting 'stuck' on the Well, just never do that again. Simple.
first throw of seven balls
These little Fergies just seem Why are you dropping them?
to bounce out of my hands
offered by Rob Street to myself actually, to my suprise, turned out to be
helpful, without the quotes. Your mileage may vary.
BTW, 77mm middle fingertip to centre of palm-side first joint wrinkle,
189mm middle fingertip to the first wrinkle on my wrist, about 212mm
(this ruler is too short) full stretch little fingertip to thumbtip.
(3, 7 4/9, 8 7/20 inches)
No cheating, Iain, Leif, I want parallax fully taken into account and
fully stretched-out hands. :)
John
Someone add 'fingerism' and 'fast-twitchism' to the politically-correct
dictonary.
;-|
Isaac Orr
Iain Duncan wrote ...
>My middle finger from tip to base is 80mm, and the tip
>of my pinky to the base of the finger is 60mm.
Well, of course I had to go measure myself (I bet there's been a general
surge of ruler sales in the vicinity of rec.juggling community members!) -
reminds of me of some adolescent experiences with friends from school but
never mind that right now.
I am considered to have long fingers ("pianist hands" my sister always said)
and yet: Middle finger=84mm, Pinky=65mm, which is just 5% difference from
those apparently suffering from chronic prop-bloatedness (or should that be
"apparatus voluminousity"?)
Iain Duncan
Isaac Orr wrote:
>
> Iain Duncan wrote ...
> >My middle finger from tip to base is 80mm, and the tip
> >of my pinky to the base of the finger is 60mm.
>
> Well, of course I had to go measure myself (I bet there's been a general
> surge of ruler sales in the vicinity of rec.juggling community members!) -
> reminds of me of some adolescent experiences with friends from school but
> never mind that right now.
> I am considered to have long fingers ("pianist hands" my sister always said)
> and yet: Middle finger=84mm, Pinky=65mm, which is just 5% difference from
> those apparently suffering from chronic prop-bloatedness (or should that be
> "apparatus voluminousity"?)
>
> Isaac Orr <o...@dynamica.net>
Actually Isaac, the pianists hands is a much better indicator than these
measurements. It is a direct indication of the usable spread, as opposed
to what your hands will stretch to when splayed against a ruler. Other
factors beyond finger length include the "active" flexibility between
finger joints ( what those wacky guys in the nineteenth century would
rec their hands trying to achieve with finger stretchers ) and the size
and curvature of the palm, both of which come into play on the piano
test. For instance, my large handed juggling friend can easily nail
tenths while I can only nail octaves with a real stretch. After all,
we're all reaching around balls here, not rulers.
Iain.
Andrew John Conway
con...@juggling.org says...
> I just sent an e-mail to Anthony Gatto and Albert Lucas asking them if
>
I received private responses from both of them. Anthony said he liked to
let his achievements speak for themselves. I think they do. <Insert
obligatory plug for BJC2K here>
Albert called me on the phone a couple of days ago and talked to me for a
while. Among the most remarkable of the many achievements that we
discussed were his public demonstrations of ten ball and twelve ring
flashes, and his qualifying run with ten rings in an IJA numbers
competition. He is the only person ever to qualify ten objects under
competition conditions - you only get two minutes to work in, and you
only get to try once a year!
Albert told me that in practice he is regularly getting flashes with
fourteen rings, and with seven rings in one hand he can get fourteen
catches on either side. He hopes to demonstrate a fourteen ring flash in
public soon, and has sold the TV rights to Fox. I must say, I really want
to see this!
Having done that, Albert said he would like to retire from competitive
juggling, with one possible exception. If he succeeds in getting joggling
introduced as an olympic sport, he would like to try out for the US team.
One more item of news. He is hoping to attend the European festival this
summer, so for the first time European jugglers will be exposed to this
remarkable personality.
--
Andrew
Old Father William
>juggling, with one possible exception. If he succeeds in getting joggling
>introduced as an olympic sport, he would like to try out for the US team.
Personally, I like to watch people joggle. <g>
--
Regards,
Old Father William
Anachronistix, the Bard
KSK
mini
this
->summer, so for the first time European jugglers will be exposed to
this
->remarkable personality.
looking forward to that a LOT!.
Mini Mansell , Long life, Good sex and Prosperity.
http://www.minimansell.com
Listings for Worldwide Juggling Clubs http://www.juggler.net/jugglingclubs
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