Fashions and fads in Juggling.
NAOMI
not really had much chance to observe the changes in juggling fashions as
the time passes. However it is quite obvious that some effects affect the
keen juggling core as a whole.
For instance the trick db97531, first performed I understand by Ben
Beever, and more recently popularized by Thomas Dietz on video, seems to
have inspired a lot of jugglers to try similar tricks. Go to any
convention, certainly in the UK, and you see numerous people trying or
succeeding with 7531, 97531 and other stacking ( is that the right word?)
tricks and variants. All these do look good to the spectator, and so it
is understandable that they are receiving such attention.
I wondered whether there have been any other noticable fads in the past ,
and whether some event or performance triggered them. I know siteswap
invention had one profound effect, are there any others that have
affected the history of juggling fashion?
----== posted via www.jugglingdb.com ==----
Luke Holman
Wow, that's a good point/question. I'm an even newer juggler than you, but
I reckon the following constitute past and present juggling fashions or
paradigm shifts:
1. The realisation that you can juggle patterns like MM and RR in various
sitswaps.
2. "Wrong end" stuff with clubs
3. "Club manipulation"
4. Siteswap itself, and its increasing popularity due to the internet
5. Lefty-Righty passing
6. Legos
7. Ass catching
8. Penguin 441 (why is it so much more common than other penguin
siteswaps?)
9. Numbers juggling for everyone (Hmm, my computer tells me some kid in
Shrewesbury can do 162 catches of 7 after two months practice, I better
get my 5 cascade solid or I'll not be hip")
[insert lots more please]
Now, as every Popperian knows, the key to progress and glory is to think
of the Paradigm shifts before thay happen. So the next question is, can
anyone suggest the next big thing in juggling (assuming we all agree
juggling fashions exist)?
How about developing the field of the reverse multiplex(squeeze catching)?
Luke's had a bash at this (see his wiki page), but I never see anyone
juggling them.
Maybe a move towards developing sequences of tricks rather than individual
moves is the way forward. Good arty 3 ball jugglers like Robin and Ryan
say its all about the sequences, but they're in the minority.
Gotta go.
Luke
Dave Law
Dave
"Luke Holman" <l.ho...@shef.ac.uk.nospam> wrote in message
news:41405a8d$0$6335$bed6...@news.gradwell.net...
Colin E.
A very interesting point. There certainly have been a number of key
developments in juggling, some of which are easy to attribute to an event
or individual, some which are not.
I agree that the invention (discovery?) of siteswaps has had quite a
significant effect on juggling. I remember going to a juggling convention
in Liverpool about 8 years ago where Colin Wright was demonstrating the
JuggleKrazy application. There was quite a crowd of people in the bar
watching the animation of 534 with fascination. I think it took a while
before jugglers started tackling the more complex siteswaps, in the UK
(and possibly beyond) Ben Beever certainly did a lot to popularise
technical siteswap juggling.
There has certainly been a recent rise in the popularity of number
juggling, in my opinion, this has been fueled almost entirely by the rise
in popularity of siteswaps.
On a related subject, the jugging records seem to be getting broken more
and more often. I have attended juggling conventions over the past decade,
it would certainly seem that the general standard of juggling is rising
and rising. Although, is this because people concentrate on a much more
restricted range of skills these days? i.e. numbers juggling and
siteswaps. There seem to be fewer people practicing more 'artistic' tricks
(moves?!). Also, it is much easier to judge skill level when assessing
numbers juggling compared with 'artistics' juggling, so perhaps this
perceived increase in skill level is due to the fact that skill level is
now more easily measured.
Another class of tricks that I think has become more fashionable is the
more 'extreme' juggling moves, e.g. high throws with tricks underneath,
tricks previously associated with 3 objects being performed with 5,6,7...
tricks performed with all overhead throws, ridiculous pirouettes etc... In
my opinion this style was popularised by Jason Garfield.
So with this shift in fashion, what is being left out? what tricks are we
forgetting?
Regards,
Colin E.
Scott Seltzer
> Another class of tricks that I think has become more fashionable is the
> more 'extreme' juggling moves, e.g. high throws with tricks underneath,
> tricks previously associated with 3 objects being performed with 5,6,7...
> tricks performed with all overhead throws, ridiculous pirouettes etc... In
> my opinion this style was popularised by Jason Garfield.
I think that this style was popularized by the IJA competitions which was
Jason Garfield's starting ground.
-Scott
Brian Louisos
I saw some videos of competitions at the Buffalo IJA convention. There
were a lot of people who did ass catches (aka crotch catches aka 'body
catches') with balls. and also with clubs, I saw a lot of people doing
tap-backs ("oh shits") in routines. These are both tricks I have
barely worked on, but now they seem like the 'cool' thing to do, so
I'll have to start working on them.
---Brian Louisos
Scott Kurland, RMT
> So with this shift in fashion, what is being left out? what tricks are we
> forgetting?
>
> Regards,
> Colin E.
There was that guy on the renegade stage at the Montreal IJA 2K who STFU
and did a 3-ball cascade for five minutes.
owenjonesuk
Tap-backs aren't the same as oh-shits, at least to all the people I have
spoken to here in England about them (actually not very many). You do a
half-spin in the normal direction and with a tap-back you reverse the
direction of the club by tapping the end, and it does another half-spin
the other way, and with an oh-shit you spin the club another half-spin in
the direction it was already going.
Now I re-read your post it isn't clear that you meant to say that they
were the same, but I'll post this anyway.
Owen
PS I'm more of a ball juggler but I can't imagine ever doing ass catches
(it doesn't look right writing "arse catches"). I suppose I'll have to get
round to trying it sometime.
Mike Armstrong
> I wondered whether there have been any other noticable fads in the past ,
> and whether some event or performance triggered them. I know siteswap
> invention had one profound effect, are there any others that have
> affected the history of juggling fashion?
There was a *HUGE* surge in the popularity of two-diabolo work in the mid
and late 90s (remember the Renegade at EJC '98 in Edinburgh?), I believe
it was triggered by new diabolos becoming available and the performances
and books of Guy Heathcote and Donald Grant.
Again in the mid to late 90s you couldn't move without tripping over a UV
act or UV equipment - where did that go? (and why didn't it go sooner?)
Numbers ball juggling really took off in the UK when Ben Beever arrived.
I'm not sure we'd have people like Peter Bone, Luke Burrage, Beinn Muir
and lots of others doing some of the things they do if Ben hadn't blazed
that trail.
Hat became a much bigger thing in the UK (and to some extent Europe) a
couple of years ago with the introduction of the Nils Poll "Manipollator"
hat, performances by Fistful of Lice and a certain website.
The popularity of Radical Fish and Renegade Fatheads were both presaged by
the Gandinis using them. The current big thing east-pond seems to be white
Henry's Pirouettes - I'm not sure any individual can get the credit for
that one, but lots of people picked on them for performance and they
spread from there.
I'm sure there are loads more...especially as these examples are mostly
related to my experiences in the UK
Cheers
-Mike
http://www.trickswithhats.org
NAOMI
> Scott Kurland, RMT wrote:
> > There was that guy on the renegade stage at the Montreal IJA 2K who STFU
> > and did a 3-ball cascade for five minutes.
>
> that at Norwich BJC '95.
>
> The Void
..and didn't Luke B do the 5 ball version at Mostyn 2 or 3 years ago?
I think he dropped just before the music finished.
Nao
The Void
> ...and didn't Luke B do the 5 ball version at Mostyn 2 or 3 years ago?
Music? Well, he missed the point then! ;-)
The Void
..................
OMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
Aidan
> Owen
>
> PS I'm more of a ball juggler but I can't imagine ever doing ass catches
> (it doesn't look right writing "arse catches"). I suppose I'll have to get
> round to trying it sometime.
>
> ----== posted via www.jugglingdb.com ==----
ass catches and neck catches are 2 tricks that never appealed to me to try!
As for fashions, hat juggling took off for a while. Might have been due to
Fisful of Lice's excellent renegade performance at BJC a few years back
c/w the trickswithhats website. Hat stuff has never appealed to me though.
At EJC this year rope tricks took off, thanks to Bernard's workshops. So
many people were wandereing around swapping rope tricks, and i got caught
by this bug:)
as others have said siteswaps, numbers, legos,others that haven't been
mentioned suicidal uni tricks, 2 diabolos and contact juggling. They've
even had some of their own cenventions!
Aidan.
n8rae
> Numbers ball juggling really took off in the UK when Ben Beever arrived.
> I'm not sure we'd have people like Peter Bone, Luke Burrage, Beinn Muir
> and lots of others doing some of the things they do if Ben hadn't blazed
> that trail.
I think Luke may be trying to reverse this trend with his two ball
juggling (workshops, vids, etc) and we will probably seeing more of that
at conventions in the future.
just a thorght
nathan
David Cain
> 6. Legos
I keep reading about Legos but I'm not sure what it it. Is it holding
one club between two others in different formations? Thanks.
David Cain
www.christianjuggler.com
Luke Holman
> l.ho...@shef.ac.uk.nospam (Luke Holman) wrote in message
news:<41405a8d$0$6335$bed6...@news.gradwell.net>...
> > 6. Legos
>
> I keep reading about Legos but I'm not sure what it it. Is it holding
> one club between two others in different formations? Thanks.
Hi David,
Legos are kind of like cigar box tricks with clubs. They can involve
devilstick-style traps, scissor catches (the trick you describe) and body
throws, but some just use regular throws. The Peapot website has a legos
montage (and a traps montage) in the radical club news section, IIRC.
HTH,
Tom Derrick
manipulation. I
hadn't seen it at BJC 2003, but I saw several people doing some advanced
stuff at BJC
2004. I think plate manipulation is on the rise aswell.
Tom Derrick
Mutton
> White socks and sandals, definitely the next juggling fashion.
>
> Dave
Cigar box combat.
- Andrew
The Void
> I think the juggling fad that's coming in at the moment is multiple ring
> manipulation. I
> hadn't seen it at BJC 2003, but I saw several people doing some advanced
> stuff at BJC
> 2004. I think plate manipulation is on the rise aswell.
> Tom Derrick
Whenever someone appears from seemingly nowhere at a convention with a new
idea/style/trick, you
can be sure it'll be the new fad in the gym the next day.
Jeremy James with his ring grinds at EJC '94
Tr'espace with their vertical diabolo at EJC '04
Toothbrush spinning, Le Mans* 94
Just a few examples off the top of my head
The Void
.....................
What are all those jugglers doing on top of my head?
Luke Burrage
> NAOMI wrote:
> > ...and didn't Luke B do the 5 ball version at Mostyn 2 or 3 years ago?
> > I think he dropped just before the music finished.
>
> Music? Well, he missed the point then! ;-)
>
No. At Mostyn 3 years ago I juggled 5 balls for the entire length of the
Carly Simon song "Nobody Does It Better" and, as pointed out, I dropped. I
wasn't very good. I performed it again at the IJA fest in Buffalo and
didn't drop.
I'd like to blame Dave Barnes for this idea. The point of it? I'll leave
it up to you to decide...
Luke Burrage
Jugglingeek
> it up to you to decide...
>
> Luke Burrage
>
> ----== posted via www.jugglingdb.com ==----
I like the idea. Much like 4mins 33 seconds by John Cage the audience
will be waiting for you to throw in a trick or waiting for you to
drop. This type of performance could create real tension in the
audience. It wouldn't work if you performed it regularly though
Jugglingeek
> Now, as every Popperian knows, the key to progress and glory is to think
> of the Paradigm shifts before thay happen. So the next question is, can
> anyone suggest the next big thing in juggling (assuming we all agree
> juggling fashions exist)?
>
Was anyone else exited by the half rings Michael Karas was juggling in
the Lutfagan trailer. I made a couple by cutting one of my rings in
half (coz lets face it I'm never gunna use all eight) They are very
difficult to juggle but look very cool. I was talking to Michael about
them and so far he has just been juggling them with full rings but we
decided that you could probably do a lot more with them. Things like
head placements and florishes work pretty well
Luke Burrage
> Being relatively new to juggling, 3 or 4 years and still a novice, I have
> not really had much chance to observe the changes in juggling fashions as
> the time passes. However it is quite obvious that some effects affect the
> keen juggling core as a whole.
Not all new ideas in juggling will become a fad or a fashion. It is all
down to how much exposure that type of juggling gets to new jugglers. New
jugglers are the key.
If you show a new idea to a big group of people who have been juggling for
a few years each, who have been to loads of conventions, who know it all
already, they are going to notice that it is new but carry on juggling how
they normally do.
On the other hand, if a juggler has only been juggling for a few months
and has never been to a convention and seen the wide range of juggling
styles, EVERY idea is new to them. So this new juggler goes to a
convention and the first thing they see is that same idea that was
presented to all the older jugglers. This new idea has the same impact as
any old idea and is put at the same level.
When I first started going to conventions Ben Beever was the juggler I
noticed. It didn't matter to me that he was trying stuff that not many
people bothered with otherwise, that was what I wanted to do.
The same thing happens when new jugglers arrive on the internet and see
new ideas being described alongside old ideas. And when a new juggler
reads the Enyclopaedia of Ball Juggling they don't know that Mills Mess is
an old trick and that Romeos Revenge is more current.
The current fads in juggling exist because new jugglers have a few very
strong influences on their juggling. Those who went to the EJC last year
saw loads of people doing mad diabolo. The same with overhead kicks with
rings and clubs for those who see recent IJA competitions. Those on the
internet are getting their first juggling fixes watching Thomas rocking
out with 7 ball siteswaps and 97531 variations. To old jugglers these
start off as new ideas, to new jugglers they are normal practice.
The next big thing? I'm not sure. I bet horizontal diabolo takes off in a
big way after the EJC this year. Once new jugglers start trying it and
find it no more difficult than traditional juggling skills it will become
common.
I think some important things to consider if you are trying to launch a
new juggling fad are:
- It must look cool.
- If people have to think too much to be able to do it they won't bother.
This is why siteswaps are popular and making up your own tricks isn't.
- It can be hard but easy enough to get instant success at some level.
This is why Squeeze catches will never be a fad, they are too impossible.
- You must reach the largest audince of new jugglers as possible. The
internet or a large convention works well.
- When it is first presented to this new audience it must be shown with
the same style and confidence than with any traditional skill. If you say
it is something new the audience won't accept it as a valid idea, just
something you made up.
I hope this helps,
Luke Burrage
gonzo
Josiah Jones and Jon Brady when they both got into slap backs and people
would erupt at shows when they did them.
Then later they appeared in JUGGLE magazine as a teach-in.
Luke Wilson, of lukaluka is compiling the Encyclopedia of Contemporary
Club Juggling. He classifies juggling skills, and I'm sure he can spot
trends, but he is so far ahead of everybody...
tonyg
NAOMI
Thanks, I had forgotten the song title used.
The exercise may or may not have had a point, if it did have a specific
one, I missed it, other than to find it entertaining in a rather different
way than usual. It was interesting to watch the audience reaction as
they gradually, some much more slowly than others, woke up to what was
happening. Audience reaction seemed to vary between great amusement and
great confusion. Some went away still confused. I enjoyed it, which from
my seat was what mattered.
Nao