xp100 in 7mm BR (was Re: Shot Placement)
Chris Barnes
>SO this butthead has left a wounded deer, too bothered to
>chase it, and then I find out he was shooting an XP100 in 7mm BR,
>and screwed up the shot from 60 yds, using a log as a rest. I asked
>why didn't he use a real gun,
I'm not real familiar with gun sizes when measured in metric, but I
was of the opionion that a 7mm was a pretty hefty gun size
(somewhere between a .270 and a 30-06). Is this not true? If it
is, then imho, it's certainly a 'real gun'....
>but he told me with pride spilling
>over how he was an excellent shot at the range, and the 7mm BR had
>plenty of power for a deer. Of course the obvious missed him, he
>wasn't a good shot, and the 7mm BR wasn't adequate, at least not in
>his hands. ------
---------
This part is the key. Of course, the guy would certainly qualify as
a butthead in my book too....
------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Barnes (409) 846-3273 (home)
cba...@tamvm1.tamu.edu (409) 845-8300 (work)
"A goal is just a dream with a date on it"
"A career is not an end unto itself. It is a vehicle to an end (a
goal). People have forgotten that. When they realize they can't
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Dan Simkins
<CBA...@TAMVM1.BITNET> writes:
|> On Tue, 1 Feb 1994 09:41:33 CST Dan Simkins said:
|> >SO this butthead has left a wounded deer, too bothered to
|> >chase it, and then I find out he was shooting an XP100 in 7mm BR,
|> >and screwed up the shot from 60 yds, using a log as a rest. I asked
|> >why didn't he use a real gun,
|>
|> I'm not real familiar with gun sizes when measured in metric, but I
|> was of the opionion that a 7mm was a pretty hefty gun size
|> (somewhere between a .270 and a 30-06). Is this not true? If it
|> is, then imho, it's certainly a 'real gun'....
7mm translates into .284 caliber. However, there are many a 7mm around,
just like there are many 30 cal. The 7mm BR is a short case round
developed for the XP100 pistol and is designed for pistol metallic
sillouhette shooting. While the 7mm BR may be adequate for a skilled
shot ( right Toby? :) ), it is not adequate for the average guy.
The 7mm Rem MAG, the cartridge I generally use, is definately enough
gun. The high velocity, both muzzle and retained, of the 7mm Rem Mag
provides for a highly devastating kill mechanism known as 'cavitation'.
Cavitaion is what happens when the bullet is travelling faster than
sound *in the medium*. The result is a very large cavity. I have
seen photos of 7.62mm NATO ( 308 Win) in ballistic gelatin, and the
size of the cavity is about that of a grapefruit. If you have shot
an animal in the heart/lung area, only to open it up and discover that
the lungs and heart are soup with few, if any, discernable parts, then
you have seen cavitation in action. It is my contention that a gut shot
deer that had been shot with the 7mm Rem Mag would not have gone too
far, and would have left a trail to follow. Of course, had he just
used a rifle instead of a pistol, he probably would have had better
shot placement.
If you are interested in more detail, check out a book called
"Military Ballistics". It is authored by two Professors of Military
Science at Sandhurst, Britain's West Point. It has all kinds of neat
info on ballistics.
|>
|> >but he told me with pride spilling
|> >over how he was an excellent shot at the range, and the 7mm BR had
|> >plenty of power for a deer. Of course the obvious missed him, he
|> >wasn't a good shot, and the 7mm BR wasn't adequate, at least not in
|> >his hands. ------
|> ---------
|>
|> This part is the key. Of course, the guy would certainly qualify as
|> a butthead in my book too....
Agreed.
Dan
Toby Bradshaw
>Chris Barnes (CBA...@TAMVM1.BITNET) wrote:
>: On Tue, 1 Feb 1994 09:41:33 CST Dan Simkins said:
>: >SO this butthead has left a wounded deer, too bothered to
>: >chase it, and then I find out he was shooting an XP100 in 7mm BR,
>: >and screwed up the shot from 60 yds, using a log as a rest. I asked
>: >why didn't he use a real gun,
>
>: I'm not real familiar with gun sizes when measured in metric, but I
>: was of the opionion that a 7mm was a pretty hefty gun size
>: (somewhere between a .270 and a 30-06). Is this not true? If it
>: is, then imho, it's certainly a 'real gun'....
>
>part of the story. This is 7mm BR, not to be confused with the 7mm Rem Mag
>that most folks are talking about when they say "7mm". Bullet weight and
>velocity are the other 2 key components to understanding what a cartridge
>can do. I'm only vaguely familiar with this cartridge, but I thought that
>it would be adequate for deer.
The 7BR is a 1.5" long x .473" diameter case made by shortening
the Remington .308 Basic BR brass (small rifle primer pocket).
Now it's available in several factory loads and as brass.
It will hold a little more propellant than a .223 or PPC case,
in the low 30gr range of stick powders. Muzzle velocity from
typical pistol barrel lengths are in the 2200-2500 fps range
for the 140gr and 120gr bullets, if I remember right. The 7BR
is popular for silhouette shooting (pistol). It has about the same
oomph at the muzzle as the 7-08 does at 400 yards or so from
a typical rifle.
-Toby Bradshaw
to...@u.washington.edu
rsi...@vaxc.stevens-tech.edu
> Chris Barnes (CBA...@TAMVM1.BITNET) wrote:
> : On Tue, 1 Feb 1994 09:41:33 CST Dan Simkins said:
> : >SO this butthead has left a wounded deer, too bothered to
> : >chase it, and then I find out he was shooting an XP100 in 7mm BR,
> : >and screwed up the shot from 60 yds, using a log as a rest. I asked
> : >why didn't he use a real gun,
>
> : I'm not real familiar with gun sizes when measured in metric, but I
> : was of the opionion that a 7mm was a pretty hefty gun size
> : (somewhere between a .270 and a 30-06). Is this not true? If it
> : is, then imho, it's certainly a 'real gun'....
>
> part of the story. This is 7mm BR, not to be confused with the 7mm Rem Mag
> that most folks are talking about when they say "7mm". Bullet weight and
> velocity are the other 2 key components to understanding what a cartridge
> can do. I'm only vaguely familiar with this cartridge, but I thought that
> it would be adequate for deer.
>
Well, since my father happens to own a Remington 7mmBR, I hope I
can help to clear this up a little. The 7mmBR uses a rifle cartridge
(can't think of the caliber) that is necked down to 7mm. Thus these
single shot 'pistols' have more than enough power to be adequate for
hunting deer, or almost any other big game animal for that matter.
--Ron
Steven Speer
: On Tue, 1 Feb 1994 09:41:33 CST Dan Simkins said:
: >SO this butthead has left a wounded deer, too bothered to
: >chase it, and then I find out he was shooting an XP100 in 7mm BR,
: >and screwed up the shot from 60 yds, using a log as a rest. I asked
: >why didn't he use a real gun,
: I'm not real familiar with gun sizes when measured in metric, but I
: was of the opionion that a 7mm was a pretty hefty gun size
: (somewhere between a .270 and a 30-06). Is this not true? If it
: is, then imho, it's certainly a 'real gun'....
7mm is .284 (between .277 and .308 as you note) but that is only one small
Dan Simkins
rsi...@vaxc.stevens-tech.edu writes:
|> In article <CKK50...@fc.hp.com>, Steven Speer <s...@hpfcla.fc.hp.com>
writes:
|>
|> can help to clear this up a little. The 7mmBR uses a rifle cartridge
|> (can't think of the caliber) that is necked down to 7mm. Thus these
|> single shot 'pistols' have more than enough power to be adequate for
|> hunting deer, or almost any other big game animal for that matter.
|>
|> --Ron
Well, I should have looked up my info before posting, but I don't keep a
catalog at the office. HEre is Remington factory load data:
test velocity energy
Caliber barrel length bullet wt. muzzle 200yds muzzle 200yds
7mm BR REM 15" 140 gr. 2215 1821 1525 1031
7mm-08 Rem 24 140 2860 2402 2542 1793
7mm Rem Mag 24 140 3175 2684 3133 2240
243 win 24 100 2960 2449 1945 1332
243 win 24 80 3350 2593 1993 1194
308 win 24 150 2820 2263 2648 1705
30-30 win 24 150 2390 1605 1902 858
I have always read that a rule-of-thumb for mule deer is a 243 win is the
smallest reasonable round. From the above stats, a 7mm BR has a little less
energy at 200 yds than the 243 80gr. I grant that it is close enough to
count as an acceptable deer cartridge. However, I wouldn't say it is
adequate for any big-game animal, I wouldn't shoot a moose with a 243, nor
the 7mm BR. I didn't type in the data, but the 7mm BR and 30-30 win have
essentially the same energy at 100 yds. Again, I have often heard that a
30-30 is adequate out to 100 yds on muleys, so then would the 7mm BR. Also
note that the 7mm-08 has nearly 80% more energy at 200 yds firing the exact
same bullet.
So, I admit to having maligned the 7mm BR Rem.
Robert J. Schmidt
>The 7mm Rem MAG, the cartridge I generally use, is definately enough
>gun. The high velocity, both muzzle and retained, of the 7mm Rem Mag
>provides for a highly devastating kill mechanism known as 'cavitation'.
>Cavitaion is what happens when the bullet is travelling faster than
>sound *in the medium*.
I thought cavitation happened on my boat when the prop lost traction
on the water :-)
>It is my contention that a gut shot
>deer that had been shot with the 7mm Rem Mag would not have gone too
>far, and would have left a trail to follow.
This reminds me of the guy I met while hunting several years ago in
upstate N.Y. - he and a few friends had just pushed a couple of deer
out of a small wooded lot and he fired several shots at a small buck.
When I met him he was at his truck and couldn't believe his "Masher"
(7mm Rem. Mag.) didn't stop the buck in his tracks. I found the trail
of the wounded deer and found blood and corn (gut shot). That buck ran
over a mile and finally ran into a swamp never to be found.
I'm not saying the 7mm Mag. is a wrong choice for deer - but the top
three things that take game cleanly are:
1. PLACEMENT
2. PLACEMENT
3. PLACEMENT
Please tell me you would not shoot a deer in the guts if it was the
only shot you had.
>Of course, had he just
>used a rifle instead of a pistol, he probably would have had better
>shot placement.
>
Both rifle and pistol still need the operator to do the right things
like practice from real hunting positions ( a bench rest does not
count).
>|>
Just my $.02 (maybe $.04)
Bob