Can a deer dodge a bullet?
Matt
that deer survive fairly often by doing this. How is this possible?
I will provide my answer in a few days.
R Mahone
muzzle velocity of over 2000 ft/sec.
So before the deer can heard the shot, the bullet has passed thru him.
"Matt" <ma...@THEMATTFELLA.XXXYYZ.COM> wrote in message
news:qAF4k.12396$bk3....@fe127.usenetserver.com...
Advocate54
news:qAF4k.12396$bk3....@fe127.usenetserver.com...
>deer survive fairly often by doing this. How is this possible?
>
> I will provide my answer in a few days.
It is not possible. A bullet traveling at 3,000 fps will reach the target 50
yards away (most whitetail deer are taken at about 50 yards) in .05 seconds.
The speed of sound is about 1100fps...the bullet would reach the animal
about 3 times faster than the sound of the discharge.
celtex
news:qAF4k.12396$bk3....@fe127.usenetserver.com...
>deer survive fairly often by doing this. How is this possible?
>
> I will provide my answer in a few days.
I have heard of them "jumping" a bow but never dodging a bullet. The bullet
would get there before the sound. Only the flash would warn them if they saw
it. So I am waiting for this tall tale. ;)
Jim
BillM
message
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Looking forward to the explanation! Do they
see the muzzle flash? 2000fps bullet and
a 100 yd shot--time of flight .15 seconds.
That's a pretty fast reaction time.
I hope you have a more plausible answer--it
would explain several misses I've had over the
years---wasn't my crappy shooting, the deer
stepped aside after I fired!
Steve Sherman
If the the bullet is moving at supersonic speed, it gets to the target
well before the sound. So, if it is going at 1050fps+
You don't here it coming. You do hear it go by.
If is is less than supersonic, then you have the time difference
of sound to impact, to do something. That amounts to no time.
But, there is also sight. The deer saw something move and reacted
and it appeared that it jumped the bullet.
It is even more likely that the shot was low or high or no where
close.
Steve
Birdog
news:a2%4k.2142$ul.638@trndny08...
> "Matt" <ma...@THEMATTFELLA.XXXYYZ.COM> wrote in message
> news:qAF4k.12396$bk3....@fe127.usenetserver.com...
>>deer survive fairly often by doing this. How is this possible?
>>
>> I will provide my answer in a few days.
>
> 2000fps bullet and
> a 100 yd shot--time of flight .15 seconds. That's a pretty fast reaction
> time.
>
> I hope you have a more plausible answer--it would explain several misses
> I've had over the years---wasn't my crappy shooting, the deer stepped
> aside after I fired!
OK, moderator, I just can't help myself. I've just got to write this!
The mystery begins with the discovery of a dead deer lying some forty yards
from a hunter, also dead from a bullet through the chest. After lengthy
study by experts far and wide, it was concluded that the deer and hunter
came face to face, the hunter shot the deer in the chest, at that instant
the deer whirled around to escape, the bullet exited the deer's rear end,
which was aligned with the hunter, and struck the hunter in the chest.
Now, there's a tale worthy of any hunter!
Susan (CobbersMom)
How is this possible?
Bambi and Company doing their own film version of the Matrix seems to be the
only thing that makes sense.
Sue
Minocqua, WI
Yamaha '00 VStar 650
'04 TW200 (mud = fun)
Kawasaki '95 Vulcan 1500 V#15937
The cage looks awful empty, don't it pa? Opie
Yea, but don't the trees look nice and full. Andy
Frank
You also have to be careful of the protection offered by other denizens
of the woods. Several time, I've had trees jump into the projectile
path to save the deer ;)
J Buck
Jim and Phyllis
You have got everyone's attention! Lay it on us.
Jim
Matt
Without remarking on the correctness, incorrectness, or partial
correctness of the answers so far, I would like to let the thread go a
little longer before giving my answer, so that everybody has time to see
the thread and think about it.
However, I will give the following hint:
The frequency of success of this dodging behavior/phenomenon depends on
the state and local deer-hunting regulations. You may never notice it
or think about it, or it could be causing you to miss shots, depending
on the regulations applied to your hunting.
The best answers will also explain the relevance of my hint.
yoda
> >>deer survive fairly often by doing this. How is this possible?
>
> >> I will provide my answer in a few days.
>
>
> The mystery begins with the discovery of a dead deer lying some forty yards
> from a hunter, also dead from a bullet through the chest. After lengthy
> study by experts far and wide, it was concluded that the deer and hunter
> came face to face, the hunter shot the deer in the chest, at that instant
> the deer whirled around to escape, the bullet exited the deer's rear end,
> which was aligned with the hunter, and struck the hunter in the chest.
>
> Now, there's a tale worthy of any hunter!
And a tail it is, but I'll go you one better:
This story was told by my great grandad. He raised sheep for a living
and the lions were killiing all his sheep, so he called for a
government trapper. The trapper didn't bother to show up, so great
grandad took it upon himself to go kill some lions. He went up into
the white ledges where the "dens" were and was walking along the ledge
toward a cave that held a she-lion and some cubs. One hand was on the
rocks, the other on the gun. The mama lion heard him coming and came
out in a dash to jump on him. He had no time to shoot, so he stuffed
his arm down her wide open mouth clear to her tail. Upon grabbing the
tail he gave a heck of a jerk, and turned the lioness inside out. She
then ran the other way and he was able to shoot her.
Mule Deer Fanatic
http://www.muledeerfanatic.com
kett...@yahoo.com
> the state and local deer-hunting regulations. You may never notice it
> or think about it, or it could be causing you to miss shots, depending
> on the regulations applied to your hunting.
I hate this unnecessary suspense. I suspect we could have had nearly
as lively a discussion without it, but what the heck, I'll take the
bait.
If you're talking about shotgun slugs - required in parts of states
like MN and WI, that I know of. The slowest slug travels something
like 1300 fps, which is still faster than the speed of sound, but the
muzzle flash would get to a deer 50 yds away, about 0.11 secs before
the slug. If you compare that to a deer "jumping the string" of an
arrow flying at 300 fps, in which case the sound gets to the deer
about 0.22 secs before the arrow, then you're talking about a deer
with amazing reaction time.
Elkaholic
Birdog
news:9cdb9b81-fd13-44f6...@z24g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
> The mystery begins with the discovery of a dead deer lying some forty
> yards
> from a hunter, also dead from a bullet through the chest. After lengthy
> study by experts far and wide, it was concluded that the deer and hunter
> came face to face, the hunter shot the deer in the chest, at that instant
> the deer whirled around to escape, the bullet exited the deer's rear end,
> which was aligned with the hunter, and struck the hunter in the chest.
>
> Now, there's a tale worthy of any hunter!
And a tail it is, but I'll go you one better:
This story was told by my great grandad. He raised sheep for a living
and the lions were killiing all his sheep, so he called for a
government trapper. The trapper didn't bother to show up, so great
grandad took it upon himself to go kill some lions. He went up into
the white ledges where the "dens" were and was walking along the ledge
toward a cave that held a she-lion and some cubs. One hand was on the
rocks, the other on the gun. The mama lion heard him coming and came
out in a dash to jump on him. He had no time to shoot, so he stuffed
his arm down her wide open mouth clear to her tail. Upon grabbing the
tail he gave a heck of a jerk, and turned the lioness inside out. She
then ran the other way and he was able to shoot her.
Mule Deer Fanatic
http://www.muledeerfanatic.com
Wow! This will be hard to top unless we get some fishermen to contribute.
Matt
I enjoyed the responses. Several were on the right track, but nobody
described a specific case where the phenomenon is most observable.
Of course the assumption that the animal has to hear the shot is a show
stopper. But we all know deer are not blind.
The other troublesome assumption is that all shots have to be taken at
50 yards, since that is a very common distance for taking a deer. We
are talking about "the deer not taken" and /why/ they are not taken.
With good practice and moderately-priced equipment, it is not very hard
to put five 12-gauge slugs in a 4-inch circle from 100 yards. It can be
done with a scoped gun and a bird barrel shooting ordinary 60-cent
plastic-wad slugs. Add a laser rangefinder, and with practice you can
consistently hit a paper plate at ranges up to 125 yards. Then why do
shotgun hunters usually take their deer at much shorter distances?
Some states permit hunting a half-hour before sunrise and a half-hour
after sunset. When it is 25 minutes past sunset and cloudy, you can
barely see, but using a 4X 42 mm scope, you can see your deer well
enough to aim. If the deer cooperates, there is no reason you can't hit
it from 100 yards.
If someone takes a flash picture in the daytime, you don't notice the
flash unless you are looking right at it. At night you will easily see
the flash reflected off the surroundings. If you have never fired a
shotgun around dusk, you might be surprised at how bright the muzzle
flash looks. You probably have never noticed your muzzle flash when
shooting on the target range at three in the afternoon. However I don't
know whether to assume that deer can't detect a 12-gauge muzzle flash in
daylight.
At 1560 fps, it takes a slug about 1/4 second to fly 100 yards, and
closer to 1/3 second to fly 125 yards. The time of flight is similar
for a scoped .44 Mag revolver at the outer limit of its range (say 75 to
90 yards), but the revolver will produce a bigger flash. For a .50 cal
muzzle loader, I expect a similar flight time at 125 to 160 yards, but a
somewhat smaller flash. I'm thinking that the flash from a
high-powered rifle is small enough that it is much harder for a deer to
see from 200 yards or more---also it is getting hard for the hunter to
detect a deer from that distance under dim light.
Have I convinced anyone?
Chris Barnes
> Have I convinced anyone?
No. At least.... not me.
--
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Chris Barnes AOL IM: CNBarnes
ch...@txbarnes.com Yahoo IM: chrisnbarnes
"Usenet really is all about standing around and hitting the ground
with clubs, on a spot where many years earlier a dead horse lay."
Natman
<ma...@THEMATTFELLA.XXXYYZ.COM> wrote:
>BillM wrote:
>> "Matt" <ma...@THEMATTFELLA.XXXYYZ.COM> wrote in
>> message
>> news:qAF4k.12396$bk3....@fe127.usenetserver.com...
>> Looking forward to the explanation! Do they
>> see the muzzle flash? 2000fps bullet and
>> a 100 yd shot--time of flight .15 seconds.
>> That's a pretty fast reaction time.
>>
>> I hope you have a more plausible answer--it
>> would explain several misses I've had over the
>> years---wasn't my crappy shooting, the deer
>> stepped aside after I fired!
>
>
>
>At 1560 fps, it takes a slug about 1/4 second to fly 100 yards, and
>closer to 1/3 second to fly 125 yards. The time of flight is similar
>for a scoped .44 Mag revolver at the outer limit of its range (say 75 to
>90 yards), but the revolver will produce a bigger flash. For a .50 cal
>muzzle loader, I expect a similar flight time at 125 to 160 yards, but a
>somewhat smaller flash. I'm thinking that the flash from a
>high-powered rifle is small enough that it is much harder for a deer to
>see from 200 yards or more---also it is getting hard for the hunter to
>detect a deer from that distance under dim light.
>
>Have I convinced anyone?
No.
Reaction time.
Steve Calvin
> Add a laser rangefinder, and with practice you can
> consistently hit a paper plate at ranges up to 125 yards.
First off, if you have a scope and rifled barrel and still need a
rangefinder at 125 yards, you have more practicing to do.
> Then why do shotgun hunters usually take their deer at much shorter distances?
Because that's where the deer are? I've taken much longer shots than
25-50 yards. Why you ask? Because that's where the deer were... ;-)
> Have I convinced anyone?
From what I've seen in my 40+ years of hunting? No
--
Steve
Frank
I'll never forget the time when a half hour after sunset, at the end of
shooting time, I was getting ready to leave the stand when I saw a flash
across the field and thought another hunter had turned on his flashlight
to leave his stand. Then a couple of seconds later I heard the shot - I
could have dodged his slug if he were shooting at me.
Question to me would be if muzzle flash would cause deer to duck. I've
seen them duck at sound of a gun shot when someone was grouse hunting
while I was bow hunting but a flash, I don't know. The "deer in the
headlights" usually freezes.
Marty Carts
[...]
> If someone takes a flash picture in the daytime, you don't notice the
> flash unless you are looking right at it. At night you will easily see
> the flash reflected off the surroundings. If you have never fired a
> shotgun around dusk, you might be surprised at how bright the muzzle
> flash looks. You probably have never noticed your muzzle flash when
> shooting on the target range at three in the afternoon. However I don't
> know whether to assume that deer can't detect a 12-gauge muzzle flash in
> daylight.
> At 1560 fps, it takes a slug about 1/4 second to fly 100 yards, and
> closer to 1/3 second to fly 125 yards. The time of flight is similar
> for a scoped .44 Mag revolver at the outer limit of its range (say 75 to
> 90 yards), but the revolver will produce a bigger flash. For a .50 cal
> muzzle loader, I expect a similar flight time at 125 to 160 yards, but a
> somewhat smaller flash. I'm thinking that the flash from a high-powered
> rifle is small enough that it is much harder for a deer to see from 200
> yards or more---also it is getting hard for the hunter to detect a deer
> from that distance under dim light.
Bow don't make no muzzle flash.
> Have I convinced anyone?
Well, I'm definitely convinced not to make no muzzle
flashes, so yeah, kind of. ____________________Marty
kett...@yahoo.com
> like 1300 fps, which is still faster than the speed of sound, but the
> muzzle flash would get to a deer 50 yds away, about 0.11 secs before
> the slug. If you compare that to a deer "jumping the string" of an
> arrow flying at 300 fps, in which case the sound gets to the deer
> about 0.22 secs before the arrow, then you're talking about a deer
> with amazing reaction time.
I neglected to mention that my calculation above for the archery shot
was at 30 yds.
So, if you're shooting a slug 100 yds, then the time of flight for a
slug would be something closer to 0.22 secs which is identical to the
30 yd arrow flight...so, yes, I think you have a valid argument. Of
course, it's only valid for a deer that is looking in the direction of
the muzzle and has the instinct to jump at the sight of a muzzle
flash. That's not a given. If I saw a flash out of the corner of my
eye, my instinct would be to look in that direction rather than
jumping. My point is that it seems natural to jump at the sound of a
gunshot (or arrow release, if you're a spooky deer), but it doesn't
seem natural to jump at the sight of a bright flash.
Elkaholic
Matt
> Question to me would be if muzzle flash would cause deer to duck. I've
> seen them duck at sound of a gun shot when someone was grouse hunting
> while I was bow hunting but a flash, I don't know. The "deer in the
> headlights" usually freezes.
Yes, I did assume that the deer would flinch at the muzzle flash. I
don't know whether they really do.
Given a 0.15 sec reaction time (many humans can do better than that) and
a 0.25 sec time of flight, and applying s = (a/2)*t**2, I find that a
deer would have time to duck ((32 ft/s**2)/2)*(0.1s)**2 = (0.16 ft)*(12
in/ft) = 1.9 in when fired on from 100 yd. By "duck" I mean drop by
gravity, which would be preparation for a quick getaway. Given a 0.13
sec reaction time and a shot from 125 yd. (1/3 sec time of flight), a
similar calculation shows that the deer would be able to drop 7.7 inches
in 0.2 sec.
Shooting downhill will cause the slug to hit a little high. Shooting
with thick clothing may make it hard to shoulder the gun tightly, which
would cause the muzzle to climb and also make the slug hit high. Adding
the hypothetical "muzzle-flash-ducking" to these and other shooting
errors could help explain an outright miss at 100 yards or beyond.
Jim and Phyllis
> the muzzle and has the instinct to jump at the sight of a muzzle
> flash.
I would expect a deer to freeze and look rather than jump at a flash.
The response to a startling sound (Bow string) is another story.
There the crouch to spring can have the effect of 'dodging' the arrow.
Jim
celtex
news:qAF4k.12396$bk3....@fe127.usenetserver.com...
>deer survive fairly often by doing this. How is this possible?
>
> I will provide my answer in a few days.
This year my buck was literally looking right at me, so it seemed through
the scope. I hit him where I was aiming and he had to see the flash but
didn't move until it was too late. The 25.06 got there and did it damage
before he flew about 20 yards; pilling up in a yucca plant.
Jim
Matt
Congratulations, but does it have something to do with the question at hand?
Jim and Phyllis
Matt,
I am confused by your response. Didn't you want people to guess about
how a deer can dodge a slug or a bullet after it is fired? We have
all been speculating. Jim's post had to do with light flash and deer
reflexes...one of our lines of speculation. If you think we are wide
of the mark, relieve our anxious wondering and explain your claim to
us.
Jim
celtex
Yes 100%. As he was looking at me when I pulled the trigger. If flash was a
contributing factor to jumping/dodging a bullet then I would have expected
him to do just that.
Jim
Chris Barnes
> Yes 100%. As he was looking at me when I pulled the trigger. If flash was a
> contributing factor to jumping/dodging a bullet then I would have expected
> him to do just that.
Well.... I'm not so sure that "Matt" isn't a troll just trying to start
a stupid argument. I don't recall him actually participating in any
real discussion on the group....
kett...@yahoo.com
> "Matt" <m...@THEMATTFELLA.XXXYYZ.COM> wrote in message
>
> news:bef8k.93556$WG2....@fe117.usenetserver.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > celtex wrote:
> >> "Matt" <m...@THEMATTFELLA.XXXYYZ.COM> wrote in message
> >>news:qAF4k.12396$bk3....@fe127.usenetserver.com...
> >>> I claim that a deer can dodge a slug or bullet after it is fired, and
> >>> that deer survive fairly often by doing this. How is this possible?
>
> >>> I will provide my answer in a few days.
>
> >> This year my buck was literally looking right at me, so it seemed through
> >> the scope. I hit him where I was aiming and he had to see the flash but
> >> didn't move until it was too late. The 25.06 got there and did it damage
> >> before he flew about 20 yards; pilling up in a yucca plant.
>
> >> Jim
>
> > Congratulations, but does it have something to do with the question at
> > hand?
>
> contributing factor to jumping/dodging a bullet then I would have expected
> him to do just that.
We were talking about shotgun slugs. A 25.06 has a much higher
velocity than a shotgun slug, so it is irrelevant to this
discussion.
Elkaholic
John Grossbohlin
news:g407ej$34l$1...@news.tamu.edu...
> celtex wrote:
>> Yes 100%. As he was looking at me when I pulled the trigger. If flash was
>> a contributing factor to jumping/dodging a bullet then I would have
>> expected him to do just that.
>
> Well.... I'm not so sure that "Matt" isn't a troll just trying to start a
> stupid argument. I don't recall him actually participating in any real
> discussion on the group....
I've had similar thoughts... The question in the subject line is something I
will probably never worry about as it doesn't even make my list of concerns.
I hunt with single shot rifles and taking the actual shot is often the
easiest part of the whole experience. After locating a deer I desire to
shoot, getting into position unwinded and without my motions detected are at
the top of the concerns list...
John
NRA Benefactor
Jim and Phyllis
Google).
Jim
Susan (CobbersMom)
A 25.06 has a much highervelocity than a shotgun slug, so it is irrelevant
to this discussion.
It does apply to the conversation. Matt wrote 'slug or bullet' in his
original post.
I had the same experience as Celtex with last seasons buck (woo hoo, my
first gun buck!). He stood up 50 yds. from me and watched the whole time
while I talked and shouldered my 30-06. It was also near dusk and the
bullet managed to get him before he thought about running from the flash.
Matt
Thanks for your very polite reply. You got a little anxious, but you
didn't feel the need to cast aspersions. That was very moderate of you.
:-)
celtex didn't mention the range at which he killed his buck. The range
determines the time of flight of the bullet, and therefore determines
whether the deer had time to react. It makes no sense to present his
particular hunting experience as a counterexample unless he mentions the
range. In another post I also gave a reason why a deer is less likely
to be able to dodge a rifle bullet (smaller muzzle flash than a shotgun
or revolver). Also he didn't mention the time of day or lighting
conditions (assume a greater visual flash effect under dim lighting).
It's not clear why nobody else seems to have noticed any of that.
celtex
Sorry I left the range out. It was about 175 yds. Slightly uphill.
Jim
Chris Barnes
> We were talking about shotgun slugs. A 25.06 has a much higher
> velocity than a shotgun slug, so it is irrelevant to this
> discussion.
If you're going to talk about shotgun slugs, then you have to limit
yourself to their effective range - which is typically under 100 yards
(and usually under 50 yards). This reduces the travel time of even
this big, slow bullet.
Jim and Phyllis
> >deer survive fairly often by doing this. How is this possible?
>
> > I will provide my answer in a few days.
Matt, Please tell us about the deer.
Jim
Steve Calvin
> If you're going to talk about shotgun slugs, then you have to limit
> yourself to their effective range - which is typically under 100 yards
> (and usually under 50 yards).
HUH?!? I don't hesitate to take 150 yards with my 12 gauge under the
right conditions. I think you need a new gun or some more range time.
;-) (notice the winking smilie please)
--
Steve
celtex
news:486fe695$0$4999$607e...@cv.net...
What sighting device if any do you use that would provide a good kill at
that range with a slug?
Jim
Big John
accurate with a killing shot are two different things!!
Steve Calvin
2x7 Leupold
Steve Calvin
If I can't kill a deer at 150 yards with my setup given a clean shot,
I'll eat my shorts. Sighting and practice make the difference.
Been done many times and dropped where they stood.
Chris Barnes
>> What sighting device if any do you use that would provide a good kill at
>> that range with a slug?
>> Jim
>
> 2x7 Leupold
My shotguns are used for birds. They don't have scopes on them.
Rifles are what I use for deer - those have scopes (a Leupold btw). ;-)
Steve Calvin
> Steve Calvin wrote:
>>> What sighting device if any do you use that would provide a good kill
>>> at that range with a slug?
>>> Jim
>>
>> 2x7 Leupold
>
>
> My shotguns are used for birds. They don't have scopes on them.
> Rifles are what I use for deer - those have scopes (a Leupold btw). ;-)
>
>
I hunt in both rifle and shotgun country for deer so I bought a Mossberg
500 with both barrels. The rifled barrel has a cantilever scope mount on
it and I can switch to the bird barrel in about 3 minutes and when I
throw the slug barrel back on, the sighting is still right on. Very
nice. I have various rifles as well and switch up depending on area and
just how i happen to feel that day. ;-)
I also have some O/U's and other pumps for birds but the Mossy setup is
fine to at least 150.
Steve
Matt
In view of the discussion so far, it's not clear what more you want to
know. If you would be more specific, I would probably try to answer.
Jim and Phyllis
Thanks for your response. I failed to register your June 21 answer as
being yours. I take the calculations in that post to be how you
calculate that a deer can 'duck' a slug. If that is right, you have
already answered my question. Sorry about the repetition.
Jim
celtex
>I claim that a deer can dodge a slug or bullet after it is fired, and that
>deer survive fairly often by doing this. How is this possible?
>
> I will provide my answer in a few days.
Matt wouldn't the deer need to be educated on what a muzzle flash was? Maybe
an educated deer would relate a muzzle flash with instant fear but a
"virgin" would most likely be curious and not frightened. So maybe your
conclusions are for the Magnum Cum Laude deer and not the grade school
bunch.
Jim
Chris Barnes
> Matt wouldn't the deer need to be educated on what a muzzle flash was? Maybe
> an educated deer would relate a muzzle flash with instant fear but a
> "virgin" would most likely be curious and not frightened. So maybe your
> conclusions are for the Magnum Cum Laude deer and not the grade school
> bunch.
Therein lies the fallacy of Matt's supposition - that a deer would have
to see and react (violently) to a flash of light. Even if you believe
that a deer could be move fast enough (and his times for seeing
something and reacting are NOT legit), there are still problems with the
idea.
Given the number of deer which have their pictures taken by my trail
cameras with an ordinary flash - multiple times in a 10 second span - I
would have to strongly wonder about this idea. One would also only have
to look at the number of deer hit on a roadside at night - where the
deer most certainly see the lights - and move TOWARD the light, to gain
further evidence that a 'flash of light' would not encourage a deer to
jump a bullet.
sign me "ever skeptical"
Matt
That is a good point. So if, as some indicated, deer don't have an
innate flinch reflex to a sudden flash, maybe it would still be possible
for a deer to learn one.
Chris Barnes
> That is a good point. So if, as some indicated, deer don't have an
> innate flinch reflex to a sudden flash, maybe it would still be possible
> for a deer to learn one.
Just how would they learn it?
Most deer only get to see 1 rifle flash in their lifetimes.... LOL
Jim and Phyllis
all by itself. Older bucks certainly have an idea what that means.
Younger seem to be much less educated. Indeed, I have had young buck
and doe come by within 5 minutes of a gunshot. Yearlings will even
loop back to see where mom went after the thunder.
To learn to fear muzzle flash, the deer must couple it with the noise
of the gun and its scariness. A spotlight just gets a standing look
and then a walking away. Trail cams get the same deer for repeated
flashes in sequence and day after day. If anything, they teach the
deer not to fear a bright flash of light. Given all that, it seems
to me that an hair-trigger flight in response to a muzzle flash is
really unlikely.
Jim
Marty Carts
> Matt wrote:
>> That is a good point. So if, as some indicated, deer don't have an
>> innate flinch reflex to a sudden flash, maybe it would still be possible
>> for a deer to learn one.
> Just how would they learn it?
> Most deer only get to see 1 rifle flash in their lifetimes.... LOL
(Btw I use a low-flash low smoke broadhead so I don't
have to worry about this whole problem.)
As a bunch of individuals I'd say they don't learn,
but as a species, gee, when you continuously remove
the ones w/o the right instinctive response and
eventually the ones left mostly all have the right
instinctive response*, then I think it's fair to say
they "learned" something.
(
*: Not saying I've heard of evidence that this is
happening but it makes sense that it would.
)
That brings up my generally perennial question--How
to remove as many deer each season from my basement
window w/o teaching their buddies where not to go?
Almost all the deer coming by are in small family
groups, and if I get one, then I've educated two or
three or four others on that important deer health
and safety topic. Usually only an occasional buck
comes by alone, and they're usually scrawny
yearlings (just as tasty but primarily I'm working
on population control). Any suggestions are welcome,
for example how to make a group spread out (like,
around the corner of the house where they can't see
each other).
Btw, only 55 more practice days until season. :- )
______________________________________________Marty
Matt
> Matt wrote:
>> That is a good point. So if, as some indicated, deer don't have an
>> innate flinch reflex to a sudden flash, maybe it would still be possible
>> for a deer to learn one.
>
> Just how would they learn it?
Being nearby when their mother or sibling is shot?
> Most deer only get to see 1 rifle flash in their lifetimes.... LOL
Maybe you haven't notice yet that the hypothesis involves shotgun slugs,
the subject line notwithstanding.
Chris Barnes
> I think many deer learn to avoid gunshots. The noise is frightening
> all by itself. Older bucks certainly have an idea what that means.
> Younger seem to be much less educated. Indeed, I have had young buck
> and doe come by within 5 minutes of a gunshot. Yearlings will even
> loop back to see where mom went after the thunder.
I don't think they really do - there are already WAY too many noises
that they get accustomed to on a regular basis. Except for the ones
that REALLY live in the backwoods (and I'm talking the Yukon here, not
just a swamp down the road).
Roughly 1/2 the time I've shot a deer, I killed a 2nd one in the same
spot within 10 minutes. And a few times it was only the time it took to
chamber another round. And I'm not talking about little deer either...
Remind me to tell the story of the time I dropped an Axis *on top* of a
whitetail we had shot just 5 minutes earlier. Now THAT was cool!
Chris Barnes
> That brings up my generally perennial question--How
> to remove as many deer each season from my basement
> window w/o teaching their buddies where not to go?
You probably already know this, but shooting does will produce more than
twice as much population control as shooting bucks.
Of course that does nothing about your question about how to avoid
educating them. Imho, education like that really doesn't last that
long. The key is to educate them that the area is safe.
ie. keep food out. Sit by the window (open) during the offseason
watching them (talking to them, etc). Iow, condition them that you
aren't the threat and that the little wooden stick was a fluke. ;-)
Chris Barnes
>> Most deer only get to see 1 rifle flash in their lifetimes.... LOL
>
>
> Maybe you haven't notice yet that the hypothesis involves shotgun slugs,
> the subject line notwithstanding.
I think it still applies. How many get to see multiple shotgun flashes?
Point: on July 4 we had a huge party at our place. A little over 90
people. Jumping in the pool. Playing volleyball. When it got a little
darker, shooting firecrackers (and other bigger things that boom).
The 6 deer that come to our feeder 75 yards from the back door still
came out and ate at their regular time. I could tell they didn't like
all the commotion, but it wasn't enough to stop them.
Then there were the 2 deer that came by while 8 of us were in the back
having our "shooting day" (shooting mostly pistols, but a few rifles and
1 shotgun). Those 2 not only came to the feeder, they past the feeder
and came to within 20 yards of us (curiosity?).
Susan (CobbersMom)
condition them that you > aren't the threat and that the little wooden stick
was a fluke. ;-)
Been there, done that! Everyone around here feeds and treats them like
pets. Soooo, I treat them like walking food.
Matt
> I think many deer learn to avoid gunshots. The noise is frightening
> all by itself. Older bucks certainly have an idea what that means.
> Younger seem to be much less educated. Indeed, I have had young buck
> and doe come by within 5 minutes of a gunshot. Yearlings will even
> loop back to see where mom went after the thunder.
>
> To learn to fear muzzle flash, the deer must couple it with the noise
> of the gun and its scariness.
I don't know why a deer couldn't couple muzzle flash as well as gunshot
with "Mommy stopped moving."
> Trail cams get the same deer for repeated
> flashes in sequence and day after day. If anything, they teach the
> deer not to fear a bright flash of light.
I expect so, especially when bait is involved.
> Given all that, it seems
> to me that an hair-trigger flight in response to a muzzle flash is
> really unlikely.
>
> Jim
I would think that there would have been relevant experiments on captive
deer forty years ago.
A few weeks ago, I walked into the bathroom and flipped on the light
switch. The filament in one of the bulbs went out, resulting in a flash
and a pop. I flinched a little, but I can't say whether that came from
the noise or from the light.
Chris Barnes
> I don't know why a deer couldn't couple muzzle flash as well as gunshot
> with "Mommy stopped moving."
You're assigning human level intelligence to animals. It's called
anthropomorphism and is a common mistake.
They just ain't that smart.
(for that matter, some people aren't that smart - but that's another thread)
Marty Carts
> Matt wrote:
>> I don't know why a deer couldn't couple muzzle flash as well as
>> gunshot with "Mommy stopped moving."
> You're assigning human level intelligence to animals. It's called
> anthropomorphism and is a common mistake.
> They just ain't that smart.
I'm not exactly disagreeing with what you said above,
Chris, but it's possibly anthropomorphic to assume
that deer *don't* have a few neurons wired to associate
bad outcomes with unusual events, or whatever. In any
case, I'm positive deer minds are built way differently
than people minds, so it's not an issue of mere level
of intelligence but *kind* of intelligence.
Deer strike me as being, by human standards, both
extremely dumb (e.g. the double hits you and many
others (including me) have performed) and sometimes
uncannily canny. ____________________________Marty
Jim and Phyllis
suspect deer can learn that way as well. That could get the flash and
the noise linked as frightening, if they perceive them together. And
deer do flee from the sudden, nearby gunshot. If they made that link,
they could flee at the flash rather than wait for the noise...Matt's
hypothesis.
I wouldn't think, however, that many deer see enough shot noise/muzzle
flash combinations to get the two stimuli coupled. In fact, I think
there is pretty good evidence that they have not learned to flee at
the first appearance of a bright light at night:
1. Trail cams The response of most deer to trail cams seems to
support the idea that they have not linked the flash to fear at the
level of gunshot noise. Having watched them with trail cams on our
trails, I can report that they stop and look at the camera or just
walk on. Only one I have watched even lifted its flag. And that was
tentative and brief. The plot deer ignore the flash entirely. They
do not seem to have associated the flash with something fearful. In
fact, at 300 yds, many of then don't seem to be all that spooked by
the shot noise itself!
2. and 3. Deer responses to spot lights and cars further supports the
idea that they do not know to flee at the first appearance of light at
night. They stand still for night lights and cars. I suspect that
trail cams and automobiles have trained them against Matt's theory, if
anything.
4. I have also shined my flashlight on them from the stand to get does
to leave at dark. They don't flee at all. They look at the light.
If I move it around, they seem to pick up the motion and perhaps see
something of me. They don't do startle, however. They walk off from
the strange moving light nearby. We could check out local deer
response to a bright light at whatever distance with a flash light
from a stand. At 100 to 150 yds, it is inconceivable that our MS deer
would bolt from a sudden light as they might from a shot noise.
All in all, I think it a very unusual deer that would react to distant
muzzle flash with a flight response of the intensity that they would
have for a gunshot. .
Jim
mark & kelly moberly
year. Still only shotgun/muzzleloader or handgun in over 75% of it. With
over twelve slug types/brands available you need to try them out and see
which one(s) group best from your barrel. Mossberg 835 rifled barrel/
bushnell 4-12/40mm scope will drop a large buck at a measured 265yards with
no problem. Practice and use the right ammo and you'll be amazed what a slug
gun can do.
I have dropped deer at 200 yds a few times with my slug guns in harvested
fields. Normally my shots are about 35-50 yds in the woods though.
I took my first rifle deer in over 30 yrs this past fall by driving 150
miles from home to get where you could use a rifle.
P.S. If I were permitted to use a rifle in the whole state I would.news:48714999$0$7332$607e...@cv.net...
> celtex wrote:
>> "Steve Calvin" <cal...@optonline.net> wrote in message
>> news:486fe695$0$4999$607e...@cv.net...
>>>> If you're going to talk about shotgun slugs, then you have to limit
>>>> yourself to their effective range - which is typically under 100 yards
>>>> (and usually under 50 yards).
>>>
>>> HUH?!? I don't hesitate to take 150 yards with my 12 gauge under the
>>> right conditions. I think you need a new gun or some more range time.
>>> ;-) (notice the winking smilie please)
>>>
>>> --
>>> Steve
>>
mark & kelly moberly
At top speed a deer can move at approximately 51.3 feet per second (35 MPH).
If the deer is on a dead run it will travel ten feet before the shot gets
there at 150 yards.
A bullet from a standard hunting rifle travels at about 2,500 feet per
second (833.3 yards per sec.)
The speed of sound is 1129 feet per sec.
The average distance a deer is shot at is 150 yards (1/5 sec from the gun).
The sound of the shot will get to the deer after the bullet gets there.