Cartridge for African Lion
Michael Courtney
I recently saw _The Ghost and The Darkness_ and read the book,
_The Maneaters of Tsavo_. Col. Patterson's choice of gun was a
.303 British, which is ballistically similar to a 308 Winchester
but about 200 fps lower velocity. In addition to the maneaters,
Col. Patterson killed a number of lions while sport hunting, and
his .303 was his gun of choice, even though many of the lions
required multiple shots, and one lived long enough to kill one of
Patterson's hunting companions.
In light of this, it is evident that the 303 British (and the
ballistically similar 308 Winchester and 30-06) are not enough gun for
African lion, though modern powders and premium bullets may have
helped to close the gap. So my question is, if you were to hunt African
lion or have to defend against maneaters, what would be your gun of
choice? Are the 338-06 and 35 Whelen up to the task, or are the
338 and up belted magnums the minimum choice?
--
Michael Courtney, Ph. D.
mic...@amo.mit.edu
ClawExtrct
Most of Africa has set the the 375 H&H as the minimum for dangerous
game, which includes lion. There are a few places tho that have no
minimum caliber, and I not too long ago remember a article from John
Sundra who hunted lion with a .284 Winchester (his guide backed him up
with a 7mm Rigby, which I think is ludicrous).
I would imagine that it depends on the size of the lion you are
hunting. Some, during the drought could be quite scrawny, while some may
go upwards of 500+ pounds. Most books I have read suggest the 375 H&H as
minimum, but somebady thats cool under pressure, and is a fine shot, would
probably have no problem with dropping one with a .338 or something along
those lines. Just make sure your PH is backing you up with something
bigger.
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Foolhen
A large Lion weighs 400 to 450lbs. and if taken unaware should not be very
hard to kill and I am very sure the 303 or 30-06 with soft points would do
the job very nicely if shot in the heart lung area. In the advent of a gut
shot mad Lion I think the 338 would be the very minimum you would want. I
am sure that this question will draw responses from some more experienced
Lion hunters than me but I cannot see much difference between a 400lb.
Lion or a 400lb. Bear and the 30-06 has sure killed a lot of Bears.
John Clifford
The .375 H&H is seen as a minimum cartridge for lion, not because they
can't be killed with something smaller if everything goes okay, but
because they take a LOT of killing if the first shot doesn't quite do
it.
Jim Carmichael, of Outdoor Life fame, is a big fan of the .338 Win Mag.
I agree with him that it will penetrate better, but I would prefer the
frontal area provided by the larger caliber.
As someone posted, a lot of grizzlies have been killed by the .30-'06.
A lot of hunters have been severely mauled when grizzlies WEREN'T killed
by the '06.
You pick a cartridge for dangerous game by determining the worst case
scenario, instead of planning for everything to go just as planned.
Remember, you might be facing a thoroughly pissed lion who has decided
to teach you a lesson for pissing him off. What caliber do you want
now?
- jgc
diderot books
> ... So my question is, if you were to hunt African
> lion or have to defend against maneaters, what would be your gun of
> choice?
About anything CAN kill a lion (and has) from a mad woman with a wooden
hoe through a .600NE.
I killed my first one with one shot from an AK-47 I traded some 15
year-old 'soldier' out of for a 20 kilo bag of mealie-meal.
But I took your question to be, "All other considerations of hunting
over bait, spooring one up, or sight-hunting on the plains... what would
be your gun of choice to STOP a lion?"
John Taylor and Craig Boddington pretty well agree the .416 or .425 with
*good* softpoints is the best lion medicine ever made.
Taylor seemed to think the .416 (.425) was even better for lion than the
.450 and larger. I think I have to agree with Boddington, however, when
spooring a lion in the puckerbush, a 470 is none too large.
In most of Africa your choice of gun is a moot point, .375 or larger
being mandated, and the .375 is an awfully special round, however most
lions shot in the chest with a .375 need a 'finisher' - something that
is rarely needed with a .416.
Bob Sikes
____________________________________________________
Diderot Books
2-1/2 North Washington =95 El Campo, Texas, USA 77437
+1.409.543.2824; 409.543.3371 fax; tam...@wcnet.net
____________________________________________________
Big Game Hunting & African Exploration books.
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doug strain
In article <5pr7ip$d...@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>
Michael Courtney <mic...@amo.TAMU.EDU> writes:
>
>I recently saw _The Ghost and The Darkness_ and read the book,
(SNIP story about .303 ON LIONS folks...you heard right)
>helped to close the gap. So my question is, if you were to hunt African
>lion or have to defend against maneaters, what would be your gun of
>choice? Are the 338-06 and 35 Whelen up to the task, or are the
>338 and up belted magnums the minimum choice?
>
>--
>Michael Courtney, Ph. D.
>mic...@amo.mit.edu
hi michael
i won't try to compare apples and oranges here. but plenty of alaskan
moose are killed by natives using .30/.30. it works, but a .338 mag
accomplishes the feat much more neatly and allows for less crucial shot
placement. that is to say, you must be *extremely* accurate to kill a
moose with one shot of a .30/.30.
likewise, you can kill lion with .303's. would i want to try it? certainly
not and it could arguably be called inhumane....ergo col.so-and-so's dead
hunting companion.the moose don't necessarily *need* to be dead so quickly
as a wounded lion.
my pick? .416 rigby first, .458 win mag second (which is what alaskan park
rangers used to carry once upon a time), then the .460.
happy cat hunting.
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TSBench
In article <33C31B18...@ix.netcom.com>, John Clifford
<john...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>Remember, you might be facing a thoroughly pissed lion who has decided
>to teach you a lesson for pissing him off. What caliber do you want
>now?
20MM ?
Regards,
TSB
Bill Walker...Producer and Cohost of The Shooting Bench radio program...Curator
of Small Arms, US Naval & Shipbuilding Museum in Quincy, MA....General Manager,
WDIS-Radio, Norfolk, Massachusetts.
Jim...@aol.com
JayStr <jay...@best.com>wrote:
>Maybe, on behalf of all us mere mortals who do not like getting our
shoulders ripped off from felt recoil, somebody should invent a .375
>Whelan.... Now THAT would be a fine black bear load!
The .375 Whelan exists, at least as a wildcat (but then again, what doesn't).
I have thought about getting a rifle chambered for it. But then I think
that a .338/.375 would do everything that the .375 Whelen would do and more.
The .338/.375 could be downloaded to .375 Whelen velocity and uploaded to
the .375 H&H level. If a guy were going to go to a wildcat this would seem
to me a more sensible choice.
About the time I am already to lay out the cash for this wildcat I start
thinking "What is the advantage of this over the .375 H&H?" 1/4" shorter
action is all. The disadvantages are many. Like if you show up in Africa
without your baggage with your ammo, try finding .338/375 ammo!
So I think I will just stick to the old .375 H&H although it is tempting to
get something a little different.
WCHarsa
Michael,
If I remember correctly, most African nations require a minimum .375H&H
for dangerous game. The .30's are certainly capable, in good hands, of
taking care of a lion but are not anywhere near ideal.
I suspect the .338 WM would be more than adequate -- it certainly is
capable of taking down the big bears in North America -- but it too falls
to the .375 rule.
A good African battery would be one of the medium to large bores (.416
/.458 and up) for dangerous game with a .338 for plains game. That way
you're covered even if you should encounter a nasty situation while out
for plains game.
Regards
Wendell
Andrew Gold
Michael Courtney wrote:
> I recently saw _The Ghost and The Darkness_ and read the book,
> _The Maneaters of Tsavo_. Col. Patterson's choice of gun was a
> .303 British, which is ballistically similar to a 308 Winchester
> but about 200 fps lower velocity. In addition to the maneaters,
> Col. Patterson killed a number of lions while sport hunting, and
> his .303 was his gun of choice, even though many of the lions
> required multiple shots, and one lived long enough to kill one of
> Patterson's hunting companions.
>
> In light of this, it is evident that the 303 British (and the
> ballistically similar 308 Winchester and 30-06) are not enough gun for
>
> African lion, though modern powders and premium bullets may have
> helped to close the gap. So my question is, if you were to hunt
> African
> lion or have to defend against maneaters, what would be your gun of
> choice? Are the 338-06 and 35 Whelen up to the task, or are the
> 338 and up belted magnums the minimum choice?
>
> --
> Michael Courtney, Ph. D.
> mic...@amo.mit.edu
I read a little booklet a while back titled "Ballistics in Perspective"
by Mike LaGrange. LaGrange is / was an animal control officer for the
Zimbabwe National Parks. In the line of duty (overpopulation culls) he
has killed over 6000 elephants, and I would assume and equally
ridiculous number of problem lions. In any event, he has killed more
lions than 90% of this newsgroup will ever see. He circulated a
questionnaire among a few of his highly experienced acquaintances
(professional animal control officers and professional guides) and this
was his findings:
"A weapon of at least .450 caliber using expanding bullets was
unanimously recommended by all parties for hunting lion, because of the
inherent danger of dealing with it in a charge. Many hunters commented
that a weapon of .300 caliber was capable of killing lion as it is
relatively easy to kill with well placed shots, but its potential danger
necessitates the use of a larger weapon."
In another section, he writes:
"The second category of game is lion, which falls into a group of its
own. Although lion are soft skinned and of similar mass to most of the
animals found in the soft skinned category, it has been put into a
separate category because of its potential danger to a hunter. In my
experience, wounded lion are more likely to charge than any of the other
dangerous game except possibly leopard. Lion, like leopard, kill
regularly for its food, and often animals several times larger than
itself. They are masters in the art of ambushing, attacking and killing
their victims and are able to hide behind the smallest insignificant
clump of grass, charging from close quarters. During a charge the animal
comes low against the ground at great speed where there is seldom time
to fire a second shot. Any person who experiences a charging lion does
not easily forget the incident, particularly the eyes.
"Although most animals have a natural fear of man, in my experience this
is least apparent in lion, particularly at night or when wounded. Once a
determined charge has developed, the animal, like buffalo, is seldom
deterred. Although lion are positively lethal, they are relatively small
(compared to other large dangerous game) and are easily killed with a
well placed shot into the chest area using bullets from a .300 caliber
weapon and above. For this reason when lion are shot from a blind over a
carcass, or night stock raiding, a .300 caliber weapon using the
heaviest soft-nose possible would be adequate. During a follow up
though, particularly in control work, a heavier caliber weapon in excess
of .450 is essential."
He goes on to comment that high velocity bullets that break up during a
charge are a poor choice for use on lion (!). He also felt that a large
caliber side arm would have some utility since the three hunters of his
acquaintance who were individually mauled by lions each observed that
they had had time to defend themselves with a sidearm if they had had
one. His last comment was that one additional reason for .450 bores and
higher was that if a buffalo/rhino/elephant was inadvertently disturbed
during the follow up of a wounded lion in heavy brush, solid bullets
could be used on both the lion and the buff/rhino/elephant. I would
imagine that shooting a po'ed elephant at six feet with soft-points
would probably be about the last mistake you ever made in your life. It
did surprise me that he advocated using solids on follow ups on lions.
In any event, his book is outstanding.
John Clifford
Sure, the .338 Win Mag necked up to .375 will do everything the .375 H&H
will... but at a much higher pressure.
The advantage of the .375 H&H is that you are NOT stressing it to get
performance. Hence, you do not have to worry about unsafe pressures in
tropical environments, sticky extraction, or other pressure-related
problems that might distract you from popping yon pussycat.
The British put a lot of thought into cartridges like the .416 Rigby,
the .470 Nitro Express, and the .375 H&H. The gun designers figured
that, like an engine, a large one that loafs along will be far more
reliable than a small one straining its guts out... even if the former
is not as economical.
- jgc
John Clifford
> It
> did surprise me that he advocated using solids on follow ups on lions.
He advocated it in a .450 caliber rifle. A .375 H&H has to expand a bit
before it becomes .450" in diameter... and then the bullet has nowhere
near the weight (hence momentum, hence penetration power).
Art Alphin's A-Square reloading manual "Any Shot You Want" has an
interesting section on terminal ballistics, particularly concerning the
philosophy behind his 'Triad' concept and the design of the various
bullet types that compose the Triad. In particular, he recommends his
'Lion Load' bullet, which is designed to fragment as it expands so as to
slough off secondary projectiles, as THE choice for thin-skinned
dangerous game such as lion, leopard, and the great bears.
I can see how this might work for leopard, being the same size and
construction (but not temperment) as our cougar, but I'd be inclined to
use either his 'Dead Tough' controlled-expansion softpoint, or the
Nosler Partition (which is itself designed to expand radically until the
partion is reached, leaving the rear of the bullet to penetrate). I'm
sure an expanding bullet in the chest would shock a charging lion, but I
think that a bullet that expanded but also penetrated through the
diaphram and into the bowels would be much like a punch in the solar
plexus... it might make the lion sick enough so that he would stop his
charge long enough for me to get more shots off AND for the effects of
the damage to his heart and/or lungs to kick in. My goal with a lion
would be to do as much tissue damage with each round, through a vital
area, as possible.
Lion scare me. That's why I want to hunt them. Any animal that could
possibly shrug off a hit from a .375 H&H is awesome, in the literal
sense of the word.
- jgc
JayStr
I'm reposting this whole post in my reply just because I find it so
interesting. My question is: What's the publisher, price, & ISBN for
this book?
-- Jay Stranahan
Christopher B Ebert
Several people have already commented on what's appropriate today. Here
are some excerpts from "A Game Ranger's Note Book", A. Blayney Percival
(Late of the Kenya Colony Game Department), 1924.
A question often asked is, "What is the best rifle for lions?" To this I
have a stock reply "The heaviest rifle you can handle under the
circumstances." No one is a greater believer than myself in the
small-bore, and by far the greater number of my lions have been killed
with a Westley-Richards .265 (should read .256); but this has been the
most powerful rifle I could handle under the circumstances.
.....
The modern Rigby .450 and similar bores are wonderful, and are
undoubtedly the rifles to use for lion whenever possible. The bullet for
the heavy rifle should be soft-nosed, while for the small-bore I believe
in the solid. I am not a believer in the medium-sized bores; not that the
rifles are unsatisfactory, but they are apt to make a man take chances
which, if he had a small-bore, he, knowing its limitations, would either
pass by or take with the greatest care.
(end excerpts).
He also goes on to discuss shot placement and galloping lions
diderot books
I have found the last twelve (allegedly) BALLISTICS IN PERSPECTIVE, by
Mike LaGrange. These are new and unread first edition trade paperback
books (tpb =3D large format) published in 1990.
My laid-in cost is $17.86 each. I am keeping one and two have been
reserved, nine books are available at $22, delivery charges included.
Bob Sikes
____________________________________________________
Diderot Books
2-1/2 North Washington =95 El Campo, Texas, USA 77437
+1.409.543.2824; 409.543.3371 fax; tam...@wcnet.net
____________________________________________________
Big Game Hunting & African Exploration books.
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