Nosler Partition Accuracy
John P. Eide
>I am trying to work up a Caribou/Elk load using a 160gr Nosler
>Partition. I have tried every combination of IMR4350/IMR4831 with
>the same brass/primers and varied the seating depth. The best I can
>get is 1.6 MOA and it is not very repeatable. Some of the groups are
>as bad as 3-4 MOA.
I had the same experience in the mid 80s. I bought a Remington 700 BDL in
300 Winchester Mag just to use the 30 caliber 200 grain Nosler Partition
round. I tried numerous powders, primers, etc. but never could get any
acceptable accuracy. Meanwhile the rifle was shooting in the neighborhood
of 1 MOA with Speer Spitzers and Hornaday bullets. Finally I cornered the
Nosler rep in the Powderhorn in Bozeman, MT and he told me that due to fear
of lawsuits many manufacturers had begun making their barrels a hair
oversize. With most bullets the soft base would simply expand, fill the
bore, and accuracy was fine. But partitions have a very hard base which
wouldn;t expand, and thus accuracy suffered. Made sense to me.
ELI...@mail.bev.net
I have never used Noslers, but it sounds like he was ducking the question and
shifting blame. Did you mike **your** rifle's bore, to see if it was
"oversize"? I have a hard time believing that any manufacturer of rifles would
willingly let their product's accuracy be degraded to avoid some hypothetical
lawsuit...it would cost them more in sales if the word got out that "...X's
rifles don't shoot worth a damn!" than a lawsuit would. In fact, Ruger makes
their Mini-30 with a barrel groove diameter of .309" which is at least 0.002"
UNDERSIZE for the 7.62x39 ammunition loaded by foreign makers and widely used.
Shooting .311" bullets in that bore is not the least bit dangerous.
If you still have the gun, mike the barrel. If it's not "oversized" then the
problem is not the gun, it's the bullets. Compare the hardness of the base of
Nosler's bullets with those that give you good accuracy and see which is harder.
If there is no difference, it's not the gun, it's the bullets.
As I say, I have never used Nosler products, but from some of the horror stories
I've read on this group, I must say I don't think I would want to. And I
suspect that tech rep was giving you a line of BS to get out of having to deal
with an irate customer who wasn't getting the performance he expected for the
price he paid. It has been known to happen.
The Elitist
K. Karcich
>I have never used Noslers, but it sounds like he was ducking the question and
>shifting blame. Did you mike **your** rifle's bore, to see if it was
>"oversize"? I have a hard time believing that any manufacturer of rifles would
>willingly let their product's accuracy be degraded to avoid some hypothetical
>lawsuit...it would cost them more in sales if the word got out that "...X's
>rifles don't shoot worth a damn!" than a lawsuit would. In fact, Ruger makes
>their Mini-30 with a barrel groove diameter of .309" which is at least 0.002"
>UNDERSIZE for the 7.62x39 ammunition loaded by foreign makers and widely used.
>Shooting .311" bullets in that bore is not the least bit dangerous.
>
>If you still have the gun, mike the barrel. If it's not "oversized" then the
>problem is not the gun, it's the bullets. Compare the hardness of the base of
>Nosler's bullets with those that give you good accuracy and see which is
harder.
>If there is no difference, it's not the gun, it's the bullets.
>
>As I say, I have never used Nosler products, but from some of the horror
stories
>I've read on this group, I must say I don't think I would want to. And I
>suspect that tech rep was giving you a line of BS to get out of having to deal
>with an irate customer who wasn't getting the performance he expected for the
>price he paid. It has been known to happen.
>
>The Elitist
It is quite common to find oversize barrels in production guns, however, its
not to avoid lawsuits, its simply the economics of producing a nominally
acceptable product. As far as normal Nosler accuracy goes, these bullets
specifically the 160gr and 175gr Partition, will realistically produce 1 to
1.5 moa in a in-spec factory barrel. As far as horror stories go, I personally
have had nothing but good results from any of the partition designs, including
the 260gr .375 bullet that was the subject numerous posts, pro and con.
I agree that your advice to slug the barrel is sound advice and should have
been offered earlier in this thread. And even if the barrel is in spec,
many barrels exhibit partiality in the bullets and loads that perform best.
I do disagree with your assertion that if the barrel slugs ok, then its as
simple as blaming the bullet. While that might be true, it is not necessarily
the only variable at work in that rifle.
regards, Ken Karcich
"tom_rutledge_(by_way_of_alex_vitek_<alexvit@ix.netcom.com>)"
ELI...@MAIL.BEV.NET wrote:
> As I say, I have never used Nosler products, but from some of the horror
stories
> I've read on this group, I must say I don't think I would want to. And I
> suspect that tech rep was giving you a line of BS to get out of having to
deal
> with an irate customer who wasn't getting the performance he expected for
the
> price he paid. It has been known to happen.
>
> The Elitist
I've used 'em and I'm a definite fan.
Some guns like 'em, some don't. Same for Barnes X or any other bullet.
Good, tough bullets seem a little more touchy than cheap junky ones
'cause the premium bullets, designed to be tougher, don't obturate and
fill the bore as easily if there's something dimensionally wrong in
there.
When everything goes well, ... well, I guess that says it: it goes well.
My .25-'06 varminter, which I sold last week, shot 200 yard .75" groups
with 115 grain partitions pretty regularly. It wouldn't even do that
with varmint bullets. My .338 shoots 210 grain X boat tails into .3"
groups at 100 yards. Just a coupla factory Rugers with a little trigger
work, nothing fancy.
Tom
cro...@earthlink.net
On Thu, 13 Mar 1997 13:08:32 -0600, "John P. Eide" <je...@casconn.com>
wrote:
>I had the same experience in the mid 80s. I bought a Remington 700 BDL in
>300 Winchester Mag just to use the 30 caliber 200 grain Nosler Partition
>round. I tried numerous powders, primers, etc. but never could get any
>acceptable accuracy. Meanwhile the rifle was shooting in the neighborhood
>of 1 MOA with Speer Spitzers and Hornaday bullets. Finally I cornered the
>Nosler rep in the Powderhorn in Bozeman, MT and he told me that due to fear
>of lawsuits many manufacturers had begun making their barrels a hair
>oversize. With most bullets the soft base would simply expand, fill the
>bore, and accuracy was fine. But partitions have a very hard base which
>wouldn;t expand, and thus accuracy suffered. Made sense to me.
This morning I fired 5 three shot groups from my .243 Improved.
XX grains of RL19, 85 grain Nosler Partition, chronographed at 3270
fps average for 15 shots. Average accuracy for the series-- 0.63
inches. This is from a Winchester M70 Stainless Classic, stock except
for the rechambering.
Every rifle is a law unto itself, some will shoot Partitions just
fine, some won't. As far as performance on game, well, every critter
I've ever shot with one was impressed. (briefly)
This same rifle, BTW, absolutely refuses to shoot any Speer bullets.
Three to four MOA, consistently.
Well, there's my nickels worth, do with it what you will.
Richard Williams <cro...@earthlink.net>
Jonathan M. Spencer
In article <1997031307522...@mail.casconn.com>, "John P. Eide"
<je...@casconn.com> writes
[someone said]
>>I am trying to work up a Caribou/Elk load using a 160gr Nosler
>>Partition. I have tried every combination of IMR4350/IMR4831 with
>>the same brass/primers and varied the seating depth. The best I can
>>get is 1.6 MOA and it is not very repeatable.
How small a group is required for an animal the size of a caribou or an
elk: how big is the target area? I would have thought that 1.6 MOA is
plenty good out to 200 yards or even farther?
How well does the rifle shoot with other ammunition? If you've found
another standard big game bullet in the required weight range that works
better, why bother with the Partition?
>Finally I cornered the
>Nosler rep in the Powderhorn in Bozeman, MT and he told me that due to fear
>of lawsuits many manufacturers had begun making their barrels a hair
>oversize. With most bullets the soft base would simply expand, fill the
>bore, and accuracy was fine. But partitions have a very hard base which
>wouldn;t expand, and thus accuracy suffered. Made sense to me.
It doesn't to me. If you think about it, the base of the Partition is
open to the impact pressures of the gases whereas with a normal bullet
the base is held together by the brass jacket. (The base of the
Partition is, to the gases, what a softpoint bullet's nose is to the
deer's hide - except that the base ring is to hold it together.)
Therefore, the obturation of the Partition (other things being equal)
should be better than other types of boattail. (But note that flat base
bullets have a sealing ring at the base.)
The reason the Partition is less accurate is because it has two cores,
and they cannot be in perfect alignment. Even so, it's as accurate as
many other hunting bullets and, in practical terms, it doesn't matter.
--Jonathan
============================================================
Jonathan Spencer -- forensic firearms examiner
Mountjoy Research Centre, Durham, England, DH1 3UR
tel: +44 191 386 6107 fax: +44 191 383 0686
============================================================
Circle B
Tom Rutledge (by way of Alex Vitek <ale...@ix.netcom.com>)
<rutl...@wpo.sosc.osshe.edu> wrote in article
<3.0.32.19970314...@popd.ix.netcom.com>...
successfully taken 10 point whitetail, 13 point Mule deer, Black Bear, 6 X7
Elk, 3 X 4 Elk, Mountain goat, and Stone sheep, all with a 180 gr. Nosler
Partition. All but one has been a one shot kill. The bullet is meant for
deep penertration, not quick expansion. The bullet is not meant for a lung
shot. The bullet does not expand quickly enough for proper tissue damage.
However my 6 X 7 Elk was taken through the shoulder at 100 yards and the
bullet went clean through both sides. For a lung shot I would recommend a
Nosler Balistic Tip, which I have had good success with my 7mm Mag.
Tom Rutledge
Circle B wrote:
> I shoot a 300 Weatherby, Rem. Mag. in KS mountain rifle. I have
> successfully taken 10 point whitetail, 13 point Mule deer, Black Bear, 6 X7
> Elk, 3 X 4 Elk, Mountain goat, and Stone sheep, all with a 180 gr. Nosler
> Partition. All but one has been a one shot kill. The bullet is meant for
> deep penertration, not quick expansion. The bullet is not meant for a lung
> shot. The bullet does not expand quickly enough for proper tissue damage.
> However my 6 X 7 Elk was taken through the shoulder at 100 yards and the
> bullet went clean through both sides. For a lung shot I would recommend a
> Nosler Balistic Tip, which I have had good success with my 7mm Mag.
1) Whatsa .300 Weatherby, Rem. Mag. ??? Did you leave some letters out
or what? If you *can* type, I can only guess what you're talking about.
2) I'll stick with my statement: the Nosler partition expands fast. The
front piece is _relatively_ fragile. It is no Ballistic Tip, but as
hunting-weight lead core bullets go, it expands pretty quick. It DOES
penetrate well, but only because of the rear core. That bulkhead in
there lets Nosler do both things ... expand well and penetrate.
I regularly "overexpanded" the front half of a 120 grain partition with a
.257 Roberts ... enough to get front core / jacket separation. Once I
even got it to shed both cores ... got the bullet tumbling and both
chunks of lead came out. I'm not complaining ... I got over 20" of
penetration and cut all the rib bones down one side of a nice blacktail
buck in the process. I'd say the bullet worked well.
Point is, in my experience, the Nosler partition is more likely to expand
and often more vigorously than supermarket grade bullets from Speer,
Sierra, and Hornady. On the other hand, with that bulkhead in there,
it's less likely to totally "blow" than the same bullets at very high
velocity.
So, best of both worlds. It'll expand nicely on lung shots and
still penetrate adequately if you gotta shoot through 'em stem to stern.
Tom