CLINTON PROPOSALS BAN RIFLE HUNTING

["paul_(by_way_of_alex_vitek_<alexvit@ix.netcom.com>)"]

Just thought some of you might be intrested in these proposals by Billy
Boy.

March 5, 1997

NO HUNTING, NO SELF-DEFENSE, NO SAFETY
CLINTON PROPOSALS BAN RIFLE HUNTING,
ENDANGER LAW ENFORCEMENT,
THREATEN FAMILY SAFETY

"This is not about Smith & Wesson. This is about Lippo Group."

In a press conference with stunning political implications,
President Bill Clinton attempted to divert attention from his
ethical and legal scandals by attacking American gun owners,
their safety and their rights.

"The Clinton proposals mean no hunting, no self-defense and no
safety," said Mrs. Tanya K. Metaksa, Executive Director of the
National Rifle Association Institute for Legislative Action.

"President Clinton's proposals for trigger locks on all firearms
encourage all Americans to abandon armed, lawful self-defense in
our homes, including federal law enforcement agents. Moreover,
his proposal to ban any bullet that would, as he put it, 'cut
through a vest like a hot knife through butter,' will ban hunting
with rifles in the United States of America, period.

"The scope of Clinton's schemes is startling. These are
desperation tactics by a President embroiled in ethical and legal
scandals. This is not about Smith & Wesson. This is about Lippo
Group."

GUN LOCKS: MORE GUN ACCIDENTS, NO SELF-DEFENSE

"Manufacturers of trigger locks insist their products must not be
used on loaded guns. NRA urges Congress and federal law
enforcement to heed the warning from one prominent manufacturer --
a warning emblazoned numerous times on both the lock and
packaging: 'WARNING! DO NOT USE ON LOADED GUN! Attempts to use
on a loaded gun may result in an accidental discharge.' (Emphasis
in original.)

"Therefore, President Clinton's proposal clearly undermines armed
self-defense in American homes. For example, 75-year-old Dorothy
Cunningham and Marty Killinger, both grandmothers, recently saved
their lives with a handgun. Four thugs cut their phone lines,
then attacked the Moses Lake, Washington, residents in their
home. While one woman fended off the intruders with a pair of
scissors, the other got her pistol -- kept unlocked and loaded in
her bedroom. Had these women obeyed their president and heeded
the warnings of lock manufacturers, they would have had to get
the key to the lock, get the locked gun, unlock the gun, load the
gun, and hope that four attackers would have given them time to
do it all. That's not just nonsense. That's dangerous.

"The answer to safety is three-fold: training, training and
training. The NRA has spent $100 million in the last 8 years
teaching Americans firearms safety. NRA has provided, through
our network of 35,000 instructors, training to more than 5
million people. NRA training saves lives. According to the
National Safety Council, the number of fatal firearms accidents
among children in 1995 (latest available data) represents a 64%
decrease from an all-time-high in 1975. The fatal firearms
accident rate is at an all-time low, since record keeping began
in 1903."

IMPACT ON LAW ENFORCEMENT

"It is irresponsible for the President of the United States to
ask law enforcement officers to lock their guns. This proposal
is anti-police, period.

"NRA is urging that law enforcement call NRA police trainers to
prevent the Clinton proposal from costing them their lives and
their families' safety. Moreover, we will make available to law
enforcement officers, free of charge, information on the award-
winning Eddie Eagle Gun Safety program. This accident avoidance
program has reached more than 9 million children. Law
enforcement officers should call 1-800-392-8683.

RIFLE HUNTING BAN

"Every big game hunting round used in North America will be
banned by President Clinton's proposal and officers will not be
protected," said Mrs. Metaksa. "No police officer in the United
States has ever been fatally shot through a protective vest with
a handgun bullet designed to penetrate protective materials. THE
NUMBER IS ZERO.

"The president skirts the real problem -- cop-killers -- the two-
legged variety. Persons with prior criminal histories are
involved in the majority of homicides of law enforcement
officers," Mrs. Metaksa said. "During the last ten years, 73% of
those involved in officer killings had prior criminal arrests,
56% had been convicted of criminal offenses, and 23% were
actually on parole or probation when the officers were killed.

BAN ON SELF-DEFENSE BY LEGAL RESIDENTS

"The Kennedy/Durbin initiative, endorsed this morning by the
President, will essentially identify for criminals victims who
are barred by law from armed self-defense. It's like placing a
newspaper ad saying, 'I don't have a gun; come get me.'

"This threatens legal U.S. citizens who might look or sound
foreign. Criminals will assume they cannot own a gun and
therefore cannot defend themselves.

"We saw two years ago in Florida a rash of tourist attacks --
visitors being targeted the moment they left the airport. Law
enforcement observed that this was not surprising, because
criminals knew tourists were unlikely to be armed.

"People come to America for fundamental freedoms. One of those
freedoms is the right to protect yourself and your family. NRA
must protect the right to protect ourselves."

-- nra --

=+=+=+=+
This information is provided as a service of the National Rifle
Association Institute for Legislative Action, Fairfax, VA.

This and other information on the Second Amendment and the NRA is
available at: http://WWW.NRA.Org

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are
neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make
things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they
serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed
man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
-Thomas Jefferson, quoting Cesare Beccaria

[imla...@aol.com]

In article <3.0.32.19970308...@popd.ix.netcom.com>, "Paul (by way of

Alex Vitek <ale...@ix.netcom.com>)" writes:

>Moreover,
>his proposal to ban any bullet that would, as he put it, 'cut
>through a vest like a hot knife through butter,' will ban hunting
>with rifles in the United States of America, period.

I don't like Clinton and I'm a hunter (telling you that so you know where my
heart is). I belong to Ducks Unlimited, Quail Unlimited, and Pheasants
Unlimited - I support them all.
Years ago I supported the NRA, but no more. Its because of the NRA and its
supporters that do stuff like the above. Guess I'll get flamed over this but
most of the guys I hunt with have no use for cop killer bullets or automatic
weapons.

[Jeff Bryant]

imla...@aol.com wrote:
>
> In article <3.0.32.19970308...@popd.ix.netcom.com>, "Paul (by way
of
> Alex Vitek <ale...@ix.netcom.com>)" writes:
>

> >Moreover,
> >his proposal to ban any bullet that would, as he put it, 'cut
> >through a vest like a hot knife through butter,' will ban hunting
> >with rifles in the United States of America, period.
>

> I don't like Clinton and I'm a hunter (telling you that so you know where my
> heart is). I belong to Ducks Unlimited, Quail Unlimited, and Pheasants
> Unlimited - I support them all.
> Years ago I supported the NRA, but no more. Its because of the NRA and its
> supporters that do stuff like the above. Guess I'll get flamed over this but
> most of the guys I hunt with have no use for cop killer bullets or automatic
> weapons.

I don't understand your point. The first poster is concerned that a
brainless "cop killer" bullet ban will necessarily ban all hunting
cartridges from .223 to .458. You support this? By the way, the
control extremists also want to ban hollow point (certainly NOT a vest
penetrator) and FMJ bullets. What is left? Nothing. No handgun or
rifle cartridges would be allowed.

Do you intend to say that you will only stand up for shotgun hunting
rights, and to heck with handgun self defense users and rifle hunters?
That would be terribly myopic as your counterparts in Britain and
Australia have found out. Why shouldn't law-abidibg citizens be allowed
to use effective ammo for self-defense and hunting?

By the way, automatic weapons were restricted back in 1934, now requires
a Class 3 license. What is your definition of a cop killer bullet?
Mine is any bullet fired toward a cop for the purpose of killing him.
Solution: throw the scum inclined toward this activity into the slammer
and keep them there so they aren'y on the street. Any bullet fired by a
law abiding citizen is by my definition NOT a cop killer bullet no
matter how it is constructed. What is your definition (remember, there
are no magic bullets).

[quin...@uidaho.edu]

imla...@aol.com wrote:
>I don't like Clinton and I'm a hunter (telling you that so you know where my
> heart is). I belong to Ducks Unlimited, Quail Unlimited, and Pheasants
> Unlimited - I support them all.
>Years ago I supported the NRA, but no more. Its because of the NRA and its
> supporters that do stuff like the above. Guess I'll get flamed over this but
> most of the guys I hunt with have no use for cop killer bullets or automatic
> weapons.

Do you use a rifle to hunt? If so, realize that if your rifle will
cleanly take deer, it will penetrate a level II vest, and will
therefore fall within the proposed ban parameters. No "cop-killer"*
bullets required. No fully automatic weapons required. Just your
basic 30-30, .270, 30-06....

Wake up. Pay attention. Don't think they won't come for your
shotguns, because they will.

tq

* there is no such beastie as a "cop-killer" bullet. The
teflon-coated bullets so designated were designed at the request of
federal law enforcement agencies to better penetrate automobile
windscreens. No teflon-coated bullet has ever killed an LEO, and
therefore, the moniker is undeserved.

[ssto...@aol.com]

imla...@aol.com writes:

>Years ago I supported the NRA, but no more. Its because of the NRA and its
> supporters that do stuff like the above. Guess I'll get flamed over this
>but
> most of the guys I hunt with have no use for cop killer bullets or automatic
> weapons.

Yupp, you're right....hotheaded know-it-all's here will scald you, no doubt
about it.
Having waged that war, and not at all eager to do so again, I'll simply impart
MY chunk of wisdom in a friendly manner.
"Cop Killer Bullets" include EVERY centerfire rifle cartridge. There is NO,
repeat NO body armor, to my knowledge, designed to protect the wearer from ANY
centerfire rifle cartridge. As of a couple of years ago, even the U.S.
military did NOT have armor that would adequately protect from the "assault
weapon" (whatever they are) bullets.
If you choose to believe that "Cop Killer Bullets" is a media-generated phrase
used to describe a particular bullet some idiot tried to market several years
ago (weren't they teflon coated?) then perhaps you will come to understand
there simply isn't such a thing, per se. Confusingly enough, however, there
is. I repeat, ALL centerfire RIFLE bullets will defeat currently available
body armor.
So, as some will no doubt point out to you in a VERY sarcastic manner, you are
stating you are opposed to ALL centerfire rifles. YAWN!!!!!
One thing I WOULD suggest....perhaps a few minutes of research INTO cop killer
bullets, either to firm up or eradicate your argument, might be in order. For
God sake, don't take my word for it alone.
As to automatic weapons, I don't particularly have a use for one either, but
they sure do look like a fun thing to shoot. Having just recently joined a gun
club, I've met a couple of members with automatic weapons and am just waiting
to be invited to shoot with them.

[Carl Stevens]

imla...@aol.com wrote:
> In article <3.0.32.19970308...@popd.ix.netcom.com>, "Paul (by way
of
> Alex Vitek <ale...@ix.netcom.com>)" writes:
>

> >Moreover, his proposal to ban any bullet that would, as he put it, 'cut
> >through a vest like a hot knife through butter,' will ban hunting
> >with rifles in the United States of America, period.
>

> I don't like Clinton and I'm a hunter (telling you that so you know where my
> heart is). I belong to Ducks Unlimited, Quail Unlimited, and Pheasants
> Unlimited - I support them all.

It sounds to me as if you shoot birds and birds only. It seems to me
that you
are willing to give up everything that is not associated with
shotgunning. You
seem to want to keep yours and tahell with anyone else. That is where
your heart
looks to be.

> Years ago I supported the NRA, but no more. Its because of the NRA and its
> supporters that do stuff like the above. Guess I'll get flamed over this but
> most of the guys I hunt with have no use for cop killer bullets or automatic
> weapons.

More than a flame, this is a series of seroius questions. Please take a
day
or two to think about it before you answer.

What is a "cop killer" [sic] bullet?
Is is the 30-06 that I'd use to hunt elk, antelope, or deer? Is it the
.44
magnum used to fell a hog? Maybe, just maybe it's a 12 guage shell
loaded
with #4 shot that you use to hunt ducks. It would kill any cop that I
know
just as sure as if you'd toped him/her with an eighteenth century
claymore.

What is automatic?
Is it a Colt AR-15 or clone? Is is a Ruger 10-22? Or, if you prefer, we
can
define automatic as the Remington 11-87? Heck why stop there, an over
and
under shotgun lets you fire two shots automaticaly also. Just as fast as
you
can pull the trigger.

Think about it guy. After my rifles are confiscated who is going to stop
your shotguns from being confiscated?

carl
kasslar.com
(To reply via e-mail join the preceding 2 lines with an @)

[Dale Stanton]

On 3/25/97 3:30AM, in message <33378D...@europa.com>, Jeff Bryant
<jbr...@europa.com> wrote:

<snip>

> > I don't like Clinton and I'm a hunter (telling you that so you know where my
> > heart is). I belong to Ducks Unlimited, Quail Unlimited, and Pheasants
> > Unlimited - I support them all.

> > Years ago I supported the NRA, but no more. Its because of the NRA and its
> > supporters that do stuff like the above. Guess I'll get flamed over this
> but
> > most of the guys I hunt with have no use for cop killer bullets or
> automatic
> > weapons.
>

> I don't understand your point. The first poster is concerned that a
> brainless "cop killer" bullet ban will necessarily ban all hunting
> cartridges from .223 to .458.

How about hunting arrows/broadheads? Are they capable of cutting through body
armour (kevlar vests)? I would guess that they can. Now what should we do if
this is the case? Ban hunting with broadheads, too? ...all bows, crossbows,
etc.? How about knives? Will a good, sharp knife cut kevlar?

If this *is* the case, CommuNazi Klinton is really going to have fun, isn't he?

--

Internet: da...@zoomnet.net

*** Do NOT send advertisements to my Email address. ***
*** http://www.zoomnet.net/~dalet/index.html ***

[Randy Buker]

> Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 12:50:55 GMT
> From: imla...@aol.com
> Subject: Re: CLINTON PROPOSALS BAN RIFLE HUNTING

>
> Guess I'll get flamed over this but
> most of the guys I hunt with have no use for cop killer bullets or automatic
> weapons.
>

Consider this my flame.

Randy

[Donna F. Schaefer]

Carl Stevens wrote:
>
> imla...@aol.com wrote:
> > In article <3.0.32.19970308...@popd.ix.netcom.com>, "Paul (by
way
> of
> > Alex Vitek <ale...@ix.netcom.com>)" writes:
> >

> > >Moreover, his proposal to ban any bullet that would, as he put it, 'cut
> > >through a vest like a hot knife through butter,' will ban hunting
> > >with rifles in the United States of America, period.
> >

> > I don't like Clinton and I'm a hunter (telling you that so you know where my
> > heart is). I belong to Ducks Unlimited, Quail Unlimited, and Pheasants
> > Unlimited - I support them all.
>

> It sounds to me as if you shoot birds and birds only. It seems to me
> that you
> are willing to give up everything that is not associated with
> shotgunning. You
> seem to want to keep yours and tahell with anyone else. That is where
> your heart
> looks to be.
>

> > Years ago I supported the NRA, but no more. Its because of the NRA and its

> > supporters that do stuff like the above. Guess I'll get flamed over this

but
> > most of the guys I hunt with have no use for cop killer bullets or
automatic
> > weapons.
>

Ever think about what that shotgun of yours could do to a cop if it is
loaded with any one of the modern day slugs (I don't care if he is
wearing kevlar he will go down!) The vest may stop the slug from
penetrating but he will not withstand the force of impact. As the wise
man above stated: THINK, THINK, THINK, THINK, THINK, react or reply

[Charlie Sorsby]

In article <N.032597....@port-1-17.gallipolis.zoomnet.net>,
Dale Stanton <da...@zoomnet.net> wrote:
= On 3/25/97 3:30AM, in message <33378D...@europa.com>, Jeff Bryant
= <jbr...@europa.com> wrote:
= <snip>
= > > I don't like Clinton and I'm a hunter (telling you that so you know where
my
= > > heart is). I belong to Ducks Unlimited, Quail Unlimited, and Pheasants
= > > Unlimited - I support them all.
= > > Years ago I supported the NRA, but no more. Its because of the NRA and
its
= > > supporters that do stuff like the above. Guess I'll get flamed over this
= > but
= > > most of the guys I hunt with have no use for cop killer bullets or
= > > automatic weapons.
= >
= > I don't understand your point. The first poster is concerned that a
= > brainless "cop killer" bullet ban will necessarily ban all hunting
= > cartridges from .223 to .458.
=
= How about hunting arrows/broadheads? Are they capable of cutting through body
= armour (kevlar vests)? I would guess that they can. Now what should we do if
= this is the case? Ban hunting with broadheads, too? ...all bows, crossbows,
= etc.? How about knives? Will a good, sharp knife cut kevlar?
=
= If this *is* the case, CommuNazi Klinton is really going to have fun, isn't
he?

I urge each of you to read the current (April, 1997) issue of
American Rifleman. For those who don't belong to NRA, some public
libraries subscribe, at least mine does. Start with the "Standing
Guard" piece on pp 6,7. (Those of you who dislike LaPierre, pretend
it was written by someone else until you've digested the contents.
Then move on to "Knox's Notebook" on pp 18,19. (See previous
parenthetical comment but substitute Neal Knox.) Then move on to
the "ILA Report" (pp 24,25). Then "Armed Citizens and Crime Control"
(pp 26,27 and see my earlier parentheticals...)....

--
Best,

Charlie "Older than dirt" Sorsby Los Alamos, NM "I'm the NRA!"
c...@swcp.com www.swcp.com/~crs Life Member since 1965

[Charlie Sorsby]

In article <5h91pg$ial$1...@newshound.csrv.uidaho.edu>,
<quin...@uidaho.edu> wrote:

= imla...@aol.com wrote:
= >I don't like Clinton and I'm a hunter (telling you that so you know where my
= > heart is). I belong to Ducks Unlimited, Quail Unlimited, and Pheasants
= > Unlimited - I support them all.
= >Years ago I supported the NRA, but no more. Its because of the NRA and its
= > supporters that do stuff like the above. Guess I'll get flamed over this

but
= > most of the guys I hunt with have no use for cop killer bullets or automatic
= > weapons.
=
= Do you use a rifle to hunt? If so, realize that if your rifle will
= cleanly take deer, it will penetrate a level II vest, and will
= therefore fall within the proposed ban parameters. No "cop-killer"*
= bullets required. No fully automatic weapons required. Just your
= basic 30-30, .270, 30-06....
=
= Wake up. Pay attention. Don't think they won't come for your
= shotguns, because they will.

For a preview of things to come if we don't all "Wake up," take a
look at what's happening (and been happening) in the United
Kingdom, Australia, ... Can't happen here? Yeah, right...

Oh--and read the letter to the editor from the gentleman in
Australia in the April, 1997 issue of American Rifleman. I meant
to mention that in my other post on that subject but forgot. The
letter is headed "From Down Under"; it's on page 23.

= * there is no such beastie as a "cop-killer" bullet. The
= teflon-coated bullets so designated were designed at the request of
= federal law enforcement agencies to better penetrate automobile
= windscreens. No teflon-coated bullet has ever killed an LEO, and
= therefore, the moniker is undeserved.

[Charlie Sorsby]

In article <19970325223...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
<ssto...@aol.com> wrote:

= If you choose to believe that "Cop Killer Bullets" is a media-generated phrase
= used to describe a particular bullet some idiot tried to market several years
= ago (weren't they teflon coated?) then perhaps you will come to understand
= there simply isn't such a thing, per se. Confusingly enough, however, there
[...]
= One thing I WOULD suggest....perhaps a few minutes of research INTO cop killer
= bullets, either to firm up or eradicate your argument, might be in order.

Good idea! If you do, I think that you will find that the "idiot"
who tried to market the particular bullet in question *ONLY*
marketed it to law-enforcement agencies. Outside of those
agencies, virtually no one else even knew about the things until
our friends the media got wind of them and blabbed to everyone else
including all the criminals in the world.

But, as quoted above, don't take my word for it. Make a little
effort yourself and research the issue.

[Kent S. Eddy]

Randy Buker wrote:
>
> > Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 12:50:55 GMT
> > From: imla...@aol.com
> > Subject: Re: CLINTON PROPOSALS BAN RIFLE HUNTING
> >

> > Guess I'll get flamed over this but

> > most of the guys I hunt with have no use for cop killer bullets or
automatic

> > weapons.
> >
>
> Consider this my flame.
>
> Randy

Randy,

Throw another log on the fire for me.

- Kent

[Ray Kahl]

Donna F. Schaefer wrote:
> Ever think about what that shotgun of yours could do to a cop if it is
> loaded with any one of the modern day slugs (I don't care if he is
> wearing kevlar he will go down!) The vest may stop the slug from
> penetrating but he will not withstand the force of impact. As the wise
> man above stated: THINK, THINK, THINK, THINK, THINK, react or reply

Anybody who wants to hunt and doesn't totally oppose all forms of gun
control just must be an idiot IMHO.
Ray

[Donna F. Schaefer]

Randy Buker wrote:
>
> > Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 12:50:55 GMT
> > From: imla...@aol.com
> > Subject: Re: CLINTON PROPOSALS BAN RIFLE HUNTING
> >
> > Guess I'll get flamed over this but
> > most of the guys I hunt with have no use for cop killer bullets or
automatic
> > weapons.
> >
>
> Consider this my flame.
>
> Randy

Absolutely Great!!!!:) :) :) lol :) :) :)

[ront...@swbell.net]

In article <333EEB...@ix.netcom.com>, "Kent S. Eddy"
<To...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> > > Guess I'll get flamed over this but
> > > most of the guys I hunt with have no use for cop killer bullets or

> > > weapons.
> > >
> >
> > Consider this my flame.
>

> Throw another log on the fire for me.

This is my portion of the bon-fire

--
God may have created all men, but Sam Colt made them equal!!

[Frank Kleinburg]

In strengthening what Ray wrote, anyone who owns a gun and doesn't
totally oppose all forms of gun control just must be an idiot.. In
fact, anyone who enjoys freedom should also oppose any form of gun
control.. For without a gun, freedom WILL BE LOST.. flk

["jerry_eden_(by_way_of_alex_vitek_<alexvit@ix.netcom.com>)"]

The bon fire just keeps getting bigger especially with the huge
log I just added...

Elders said: What we need are safer bullets....
Remenber...
--
Jerry Eden
jerr...@earthlink.net
or
uq61...@hsc.hac.com

Bury it, bury it with a shovel..
Then bury the shovel....

Coach Fox..