Most accurate production bolt action rifles
bulls...@hotmail.com
personaly shot groundhogs with a Browning Stainless Stalker A-bolt at
over 500 yards. That was 15 years ago. Are Brownings still as accurate
and what others should I look at? Tikka, Sako, model numbers etc.
Steve @ OutdoorFrontiers
news:e44ce519-b6d3-4e46...@i7g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Accuracy is determined by a number of factors. The rifle is part of it, but
so is the optics you use, the trigger, the ammunition and YOU!
A lot depends too on how much you're willing to pay. There is a company in
Dade City Florida that makes extremely accurate rifles, but they're not
inexpensive. Look at http://www.tacticalrifles.net if you want to own a
.300 Win Mag that'll shoot to 1,000 yards accurately, if you are.
--
Steve @ OutdoorFrontiers
http://www.outdoorfrontiers.com
G & S Guide Service and Custom Rods
http://www.herefishyfishy.com
pheasant
Savage. Period.
jumpin...@comcast.net
How much do you want to pay and how much weight are you willing to
carry?
Rodney Long
I don't know
I have been able to take "any" Remington,, take a few moments ,,
sometimes just with a pocket knife, remove the forward pressure point on
the stock (thus free floating the barrel), adjust the trigger down to 2
lbs or under, and "everyone" of them "so far", shot under 1 inch at a
100 yds, I had a 308, and 7-08 go under 3/8 inch groups,, the majority
averaged 3/8 to 3/4 inch groups. I got the 308 and 7-08 from people who
claimed they could not get 5 inch groups out of them, I didn't even
shoot them until I floated them and lightened their triggers
One thing though ,, I have found out at the range, when people were
getting bad groups out of their rifles from the bench,, it was the
shooter, not the rifle or his ammo. When some one would complain about 4
inch groups from their 7 mag, I would ask to shoot it for group, I would
end up with 1 1/4 inch groups from that rifle they claimed would not shoot.
I have found very few hunters,, that actually know how to bench shoot,
the whole idea of shooting from the bench is taking every possible
"shooter" error out of the test, you want to know "only" what the rifle
and ammo will do.
Just holding a rifle firmly against the shoulder from the bench will
makes groups spread 1 to 2 inches. I found this out the first time I
shot a 22-250 from the bench with a 36 X varmint scope, every time my
heart beat I could see the cross hairs jump more than an inch on the target.
Trigger pull.. if it is heavy, can easily cause rifle movement just
prior to the rifle firing.
The biggest thing though is flinch by hunters shooting their heavy
recoiling rifles from the bench, you have twice the felt recoil from
bench shooting than while standing, they anticipate the recoil, "before"
it happens, sometimes this recoil can be brutal, you mind throws the
flinch on, 1/100 of a second prior to the round firing
People flinch even when shooting 223's, it is a spontaneous automatic
reaction to a loud noise, (reaction to heavy recoil makes it much worst)
everyone does it, even if they swear they don't, no one can stop it. The
"trick" is,, make sure it happens "after" the bullet leaves the barrel.
How do you know, if your anticipating the flinch and opening up your
groups ?
What color smoke is coming out the end of your rifle ?
I have heard a thousand times "my rifle does not smoke, it uses
smokeless powder", the key part of the word smokeless is "less",, it
still creates smoke, just a whole lot "less" than Black Powder.
What does knowing what color is the smoke have to do with hitting your
target ?
Part of the "flinch" reaction is blinking your eyes, you can't blink in
1/1000 of a sec. of an action that causes it, this blinking reaction is
just part of your entire bodies reaction that occurs at the same time,
if this happens prior to the bullet leaving the barrel, you will open
your groups way up. If you don't flinch until after the round fires, you
can't blink fast enough, not to see the smoke leaving the end of your rifle.
Now just how do you control this automatic anticipation your mind has to
your rifle firing ?
By not letting your mind know "in advance" when your rifle is going to fire.
There are few hunters that are "startled" (different than flinching by
the way) when their firearm fires,, it is more body reaction than
flinching,, that heart stopping reaction (jump, like when someone behind
and very close to you shoots and your not expecting it)
Being "startled" every time the gun fires, is what separates the true
shooters, from the lead slingers,, ever time your surprised like that,
when your gun fires,,,,,,, you see the smoke coming out of the barrel
There are a couple of tricks we use to train people on how to do this
--
SpecTastic Wiggle Rig,
Fishing lure remote control
See lure video you won't believe
http://ezknot.com/videos.html
Advocate54
I have had great success and cannot speak highly enough of the Weatherby
Accumark. Mine was chambered in .270 Weatherby and I have no question that
it would be an excellent choice for 400 yard plus shots on deer. Out of the
box, I don't believe the other rifles you named are in the same class.
I make that statement as a happy owner of a Browning A-Bolt.
Milo Milo
jumpin...@comcast.net
> pheasant wrote:
If you want to be sure where a particular shot will go, average group
size is not a good way to determine your rifle's accuracy.
Rodney Long
> If you want to be sure where a particular shot will go, average group
> size is not a good way to determine your rifle's accuracy.
Well yes and no
An average group from a cold barrel, on each shot is, and then a hot
barrel group.
As far as I know these are the only ways to tell your "rifle's" accuracy
If there is another, I would like to know.
jumpin...@comcast.net
I agree with you on barrel temperature and would add powder temperture
and degree of fouling. I also agree that all testing should be done
under the same conditions. However, given all that, the only way to be
sure that any individual round will impact within a given moa is to
assign the largest moa as the rifles accuracy, not the average moa.
Finnbear
on from what era the rifle you choose is made. As you can see from my email
address I am a Sako kind of guy, but I have personal experience with a
Remington, Ruger, Howa, and Savage that all have produced very excellent
results... good enough for those extra long shots on game. The newer
Weatherby rifles are made with Howa barrelled actions, and are "tested" to
shoot accurately. I recently bought a Howa SS Supreme Varminter in .308
that puts em in the same hole. Hard to get better than that. Its a bull
barrel though, not likely what you would want to carry. But light barrels
can shoot very well. Just not sustained fire. When they get hot they are
more than likely going to move, and they will get hot a lot faster than a
heavy barrel.
If you plan to hunt the California (large dog) sized Deer, then even at 400+
yards the .270 or 30-06 will surely take em down. A friend recently took an
antelope with a 270 at over 400 yards in Wyoming and dropped him. If you
were to only want to hunt medium sized game at longer distances... my best
advice would be 7mm Rem Mag at minimum. Not too big, not too small. Much
depends on you, and how you react to recoil. A heavy rifle will hit you a
lot less.
Then there is the issue of trigger. Right now Savage has the market
cornered for out of the box trigger performance. Good optics are very
important as well, and then getting used to your rifle and shooting it a lot
will make you ready to go. Nothing substitutes for a lot of rounds at
various targets at various ranges.
I collect Sako's and will continue to love them for their precision feel and
great accuracy. However there are many good choices. Getting a good barrel
is very important. If you get a good one you've got it made. With
a -Bofors Steel- barrel, you have a great chance to shoot one ragged hole
groups at 100 yds, more than accurate enought to call your shot reliably at
500+ yards if you can hold steady. But you only get those on the old Sako's
from the 60's.
Shop around you'll find what you want. Personally I'd rather have a 40 year
old Sako than anything made in the last 10 years.
Keep yer powder dry...
penultimate
> > personaly shot groundhogs with a Browning Stainless Stalker A-bolt at
> > over 500 yards. That was 15 years ago. Are Brownings still as accurate
>
> - Show quoted text -
I would generally agree with Finnbear, somewhat irrespective of rifle
age. Sako's have always been consistently accurate rifles.. The Finns
are picky. With good ammunition, I think you would be hard pressed to
buy a new Sako that was worse than a MOA rifle with at least half
being 1/2 MOA pieces. Saying this, I might be inclined to think a
Cooper a production rifle, which, if you agree there is little doubt
that your average Cooper is more accurate than your average Sako by
that meaningless 1/4 to 1/3 inch or so (at 100 yards) that would prove
the average edge of a Cooper. I think the comparison is fair because
the price points are not too different and the Coopers are prettier.
But not everyone will agree that a Cooper is a "production" product
and it should be recognized that Cooper does not let inaccurate rifles
out the door.
If you include a price factor, there is also little doubt that Savages
are an incredible deal. A greater precentage of Savages are, "out of
the box", superbly accurate (approximating 1/2 MOA) than is the case
for Remington, Browning, Ruger, Winchester, or Weatherby. In my
opinion, you would have to be a little unlucky to buy a new Savage
that did not compete head to head with a Sako. And you don't have to
be rediculously fortunate to get a Savage that competes with a
Cooper. And the Accutrigger, though ugly, is pretty much as good as a
safe trigger on a hunting rifle can be.
This said, superb accuracy in an out of the box production rifle is
very much a question of statistics. You won't get a "bad" Cooper and
most will approximate 1/2 MOA or better. You will hardly ever get a
"bad" Sako. You will only sometimes see a Savage that shoots poorly
and 30% or so will compete with the Coopers. Since you can buy at
least three Savages for one Cooper, this ain't bad! Statistically,
Remington's are probably next in line and all the rest will product
frequent examples capable of greater accuracy than most shooters. And
most of the rest can be "tuned" to 1 1/2 MOA ore better. I would
pretty much expect any new factory bolt action to be near 1 MOA
capable (or better) given some knowlegeable attention.
This is why I find the Weatherby "accuracy guarantee" so laughable.
It only applies using their ammunition. And, given good ammuition, it
is a standard that essentially ALL particularly well made rifles
(e.g., Cooper, Sako, Savage) and most of the rest easily beat. In
other words, it is marketing hype. Now, a more accurate Weatherby is
easily in the same league as your average Cooper. So I am not
insulting the quality of Weatherby rifles. Just noting the
gullibility of some Weatherby buyers.
For a whole variety of reasons including the fact that a good hunter
can almost always get closer, many of us would advise most shots at
big game be kept within 300 yards (or so). Now lots of shots are
missed within these range limits and almost none of these misses would
have been good hits if only the rifle was 1 MOA more acccurate (1/2
MOA capable as opposed to 1 1/2 MOA capable). But that MOA matters at
500 yards and the Weatherby "accuracy guarantee" does not assure a
rifle up to the task at this range, even if conditions and your
shooting skills are up to the shot.
1/2 MOA rifles don't come on trees. There is a reasonable chance one
might be in the factory box. But unless the label says "Cooper," my
point here is that you might have to buy a couple of rifles and/or do
some tuning to get what you think you want.
Ed Stasiak
>
> I am going to purchase a "long range" (400 +) deer rifle.
> I look at?
I'd suggest you'd be better off putting this question to the
gang over at the rec.guns newsgroup, where I think you'll
find most will recommend Savage rifles.
Larry Caldwell
ea89d6...@f47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>, esta...@ATT.NET (Ed
Stasiak) says...
> > bullseyebry wrote
> >
> > I am going to purchase a "long range" (400 +) deer rifle.
> > I look at?
>
> gang over at the rec.guns newsgroup, where I think you'll
> find most will recommend Savage rifles.
I have a Savage .30-06 that shot MOA out of the box. I understand
that's not unusual. I have a friend with a Remington 700 chambered for
7mm Mag that does the same. I once saw him take a coyote at 600 yards
with it. I have a neighbor with a Ruger #1 in .338 Win Mag that shoots
just about as well. So what if it's a single shot? You only need one.
I'm sure there are many other very accurate hunting rifles coming off
the production lines.
At 400+ yards, the shooter and other equipment is more important that
the rifle. At the very least, you need an accurate range finder, a
scope with a graduated reticle, a good shooting rest, a good shooting
position, and a day without wind. You have to reproduce bench rest
accuracy, in the field, without a bench, with widely varying range.
It's not easy. I don't do it. I know a couple guys who do. I even
know one guy who was a sniper in Viet Nam who can drop a deer at 600
yards, given the right equipment, a calm day and a deer that stands
still long enough. 95 times out of 100, he won't take the shot.
--
For email, replace firstnamelastinitial
with my first name and last initial.
Rodney Long
>
> I have a Savage .30-06 that shot MOA out of the box. I understand
> that's not unusual. I have a friend with a Remington 700 chambered for
> 7mm Mag that does the same. I once saw him take a coyote at 600 yards
> with it. I have a neighbor with a Ruger #1 in .338 Win Mag that shoots
> just about as well. So what if it's a single shot? You only need one.
> I'm sure there are many other very accurate hunting rifles coming off
> the production lines.
>
> At 400+ yards, the shooter and other equipment is more important that
> the rifle. At the very least, you need an accurate range finder, a
> scope with a graduated reticle, a good shooting rest, a good shooting
> position, and a day without wind. You have to reproduce bench rest
> accuracy, in the field, without a bench, with widely varying range.
>
> It's not easy. I don't do it. I know a couple guys who do. I even
> know one guy who was a sniper in Viet Nam who can drop a deer at 600
> yards, given the right equipment, a calm day and a deer that stands
> still long enough. 95 times out of 100, he won't take the shot.
>
Many years ago I was "asked" if I wanted to hunt the farm we were
visiting, I didn't bring a rifle, so the farmer offered me his Remington
semi auto 30-06,, not a model rifle known for pin point accuracy, he
told me it was zeroed for 250 yds
He drove me to a shooting house at the corner of his HUGE wheat field,
the wheat might have been 2 inches high, the field was dead flat, and it
had rained that morning . He told me he had 80 doe tags he needed
filled, they were a real pest to his farm, and for me to shoot any doe I
see, he didn't say a word either way on bucks, and I didn't ask.
I saw nothing until right before dark, I glassed two deer at the far end
of the field,, way at the far end, I looked through the 9 power scope of
the rifle, they were so small in the scope I could just barely see a
rack on one of them. This was going to be my only shot for the day, and
the trip, and probably ever on this farm, the shooting house had an
awesome place and set up to rest the rifle. Ok,, he said the rifle was
zeroed at 250 yds, my mind was trying to remember the drop of a 30-06,,
how much hold over ? I put a whole lot on it, and pulled the trigger,,
it was so far away only the buck raised his head after the shot, then
went right back to feeding, I saw no water splash up in the field,, so I
had over shot. I dropped the hold over to a about what I thought was 3
feet and shot again, the doe did a flip, and didn't move ,, the buck
just stood there, looking around a bit.
I started walking across the muddy field. (the "very nice" buck finally
saw me about halfway across and bolted into the woods)
My farmer friend drove to the stand, I signaled him with my light, he
drove around the field to where the doe lay, and could easily see I had
hit her above the shoulders taking out her spine completely, he said
that deer didn't run,, then he looked back at the shooting house, ( I
could not even see it in the low light, just the tree line) went to his
Bronco and took out a rolling ruler, he told me to load her and drive
his Bronco back to the shooting house,,, he just had to know, he said,
as he took off across the field. I beat him back to it.
667 yds with a "borrowed" Remington 746
When I told him about the nice buck,, and I had choose to shoot the doe
because he wanted those tags filled,, really impressed him,,so much,, I
was given permission to hunt his 6,000 acres for years to follow, until
his death. I could hunt it anytime I wanted (during hunting season),
everyone else he let hunt it, he had to personally invite them each
trip, and supervise their hunt, anyone who asked him to hunt, he refused
them, even someone who he had invited before, because he told me 10
people a day would stop by and bug him about letting them hunt his
place, so he had a rule, you ever ask, you "never" get to go. (very
strange guy) but he had not been bothered by any locals asking to hunt
his land in years :-) (the reason he had so many deer eating his crops)
Yes,, I missed with the first shot :-), this was back when I was a
"foolish" hunter,, since then my longest shot taken,,, and it was a
killing hit, was 438 yds (measured with a Laser) with a tack driving
Thompson TCR (no longer made) in .243, shooting an 87 grain BTHP @ 3100
FPS, in a no wind situation, from a very good rifle resting position
celtex
My 2 cents,
I will say one of the most accurate rifles I have shot, and still is, is my
Remington 788 in .243. It has been a wonderful surprise since I purchased it
as my first high power rifle when I was in high school. It has lived thru
some tough treatment and tougher hunts and still is a tack driver. I have
shot literally thousands of reloaded rounds thru it over the years and it
still is "tight". Don't neglect the "cheaper models" they too can be
accurate out of the box even decades later.
Jim
Steve Sherman
My advice is - Buy what ever looks good. Then get closer to the deer..
Steve
Steve @ OutdoorFrontiers
news:QRNkj.56168$vt2....@bignews8.bellsouth.net...
I've been in situations where it just plain isn't possible to "get closer."
I consider myself to be a bowhunter, and as such like to get as close as
possible to my quarry. However, that isn't always possible and I don't have
a problem if someone has the skills, the know-how and the equipment needed
to take a long shot.
Before I went to Africa, I practiced extensively at long range, with a rifle
that I knew had the capability to deliver. I made two one-shot kills at
over 437 yards.
When I have a problem with long shots is the guy that shoots two shots off
the hood of his truck, calls the rifle sighted in and starts blasting away
at distant animals.
penultimate
fish...@charter.net> wrote:
> "Steve Sherman" <smsh...@BELLSOUTH.NET> wrote in message
>
> news:QRNkj.56168$vt2....@bignews8.bellsouth.net...
>
> I've been in situations where it just plain isn't possible to "get closer."
> I consider myself to be a bowhunter, and as such like to get as close as
> possible to my quarry. However, that isn't always possible and I don't have
> a problem if someone has the skills, the know-how and the equipment needed
> to take a long shot.
>
> Before I went to Africa, I practiced extensively at long range, with a rifle
> that I knew had the capability to deliver. I made two one-shot kills at
> over 437 yards.
>
> When I have a problem with long shots is the guy that shoots two shots off
> the hood of his truck, calls the rifle sighted in and starts blasting away
> at distant animals.
> --
> G & S Guide Service and Custom Rodshttp://www.herefishyfishy.com
I really don't have a problem with your position, once qualified, but
I do with the impression you have left that an impossibility of
getting closer may be cause for attempting an unusually long shot that
otherwise might not be taken. Conditions (range among them) are
either consistent with reasonable certainty of a sure kill or they are
not. When they are not, don't shoot. There is always another day
when things might work out to better advantage for the hunter. And
there is no shame in an unfilled tag.
My problem is not with those prepared for and capable of the long
shot, but that the vast majority of those that attempt very long shots
are neither prepared nor capable of making them unless they get
lucky. Hidden in the impression you inadvertantly left is further
perhaps the idea that an extremely long shot is justified is fhe
target is a "once-in-a-lifetime" trophy soon to vanish and unlikely to
ever be seen again. The trouble with this (hypothetical - not one
expressed by you) view is that virtually all the wounded and crippled
and rotting game I see are forks, does, cows, and spikes, not
trophies. And so have invariably been the targets when I have watched
erstwhile hunters potting away at impossible range. Empirically, most
of the very long range shooting seems to be done by dubious marksmen
of questionable merit as hunters and directed at animals that the good
hunter usually encounters repeatedly at reasonably close range in any
given season.
A good hunter really does not have to be a particularly good shot and
certainly does not have much call for making a very long shot. And
the good hunter is far more likely to find a trophy at short range
than the poor hunter (but great shot) is likely to at long.
So, as an interesting question directed your way, how might your
outdoor show be directed at training better hunting skills in spotting
and stalking game? For example, you can certainly put a long lens on
a camera and have a game-spotting expert teach how to glass a distant
hillside. Sounds easy. But many hunters are clueless, spending most
of their time looking in the wrong places. And once game is spotted,
many don't know how to lay on a stalk. The good thing about spotting
and stalking as skills is that you can film during the off season.
Steve @ OutdoorFrontiers
So, as an interesting question directed your way, how might your
outdoor show be directed at training better hunting skills in spotting
and stalking game? For example, you can certainly put a long lens on
a camera and have a game-spotting expert teach how to glass a distant
hillside. Sounds easy. But many hunters are clueless, spending most
of their time looking in the wrong places. And once game is spotted,
many don't know how to lay on a stalk. The good thing about spotting
and stalking as skills is that you can film during the off season.
That really is a good idea. I and my associate producer will be discussion
this to see what we can do about a show segment regarding spotting animals,
glassing techniques and stalking planning.
--
Steve @ OutdoorFrontiers
jkon...@gmail.com
Buy a rifle with the proof target included and have the dealer show you all the rifles he has with the proof targets included. Then buy the one with the best proof target.
Here's what I did when finding the 'perfect' elk rifle for my wife.
Range: 300 yds max (dopey me)
Low recoil: 308 (I insisted on a 30 cal. She used to shoot a .257 Rob)
relatively light weight: <8lbs fully equiped
Accuracy: <1moa
Cost:<$1000 (again, fully equiped)
I started and ended with a Weatherby Vanguard sub moa and actually got one that is. The rifle was less than $500. A redfield scope with a graduated reticle for about $250 and a Harris Bipod. Game-on for about $800 before Texas err Taxes.
Since we hunt Elk in Wyoming, I wanted the 30 caliber. The .308 win is a great cartridge with plenty of umph for Elk inside 300 yards. Recoil is manageable even for a small framed woman of ...let's just say over 40. (51)
I insisted on weekly range sessions and she reluctantly agreed. The range we belonged to had ranges from 100 to 700 yards. I found she soon got bored at the 100 and 200 yards distance. Her scope gave her excellent points of reference to 500yards and within a couple of months was readily and consistently shooting well at 500 yards. So, being the reloader I am, I knew I could make the Sub moa promise into a sub-1/2 moa. I did this with Berger 168 grain bullets and rl-15 powder. She (not me) was capable of .315" at 100 and shot repeatable groups at 500 of less than 3" (the wind BLOWS in Wyoming!) after perhaps 750 rounds throughout the year, I was confident she was ready to kill a cow at 100 yards.
As luck would have it we finally got into Elk one morning at 545 yards. (measured on a Leupold range finder) since I was there to back her up with a .300 Weatherby and the elk were on a wide open hill , I was able to coach her shot while I sighted the same Cow with my 'Custom Cannon'. I estimated wind speed around 30mph and had her adjust accordingly. The Cow dropped in her tracks. I shot a Bull right next to hers and all the shooting scattered the herd. Several Cows ran towards us and she dropped another at 175 yards. Two shots, two kills. Boiler room both. (we could have three tags in our area just in case you were ready to dial the hotline)
We can argue all day about hunting and 'good' or 'ethical' hunting. I'm here to tell all naysayers, there is no substitute for knowing your rifle, your load and your own ability. If you have any doubt about your ability to make a shot, don't take it. Most Elk Hunters I know would argue until liberals have a clue, that a .308 is no good after 300 yards on Elk. As for most hunters, I'd agree.
Morale of the story is learn to shoot your rifle and make any rifle you buy more accurate. But most of all, Learn to shoot and don't pull the trigger if you're not sure you can make the shot, rifle accuracy aside.
