For PA-Bear Marlin 45-70. Is this too much?
LMurray323
I opted this year to hunt black bear in the mountains of PA. I have bought
a Marlin 45-70 (500 grain bullet). I wanted a weapon that packed a punch.
The downside to this weapon is that the bullet has an exiting speed of 1800
fps. After 100 yds, it falls like a bowling ball.
I want to try calling bears this year, and have heard that they can come
in pretty aggressive, and the last thing I want to do is track a pissed
off, injured bear.
Is this too much gun?
And my other question will I prbably be still standing after I fire this rifle?
The shop owner said that it should recoil a little stronger than a 30.06.
Also the latest info that I got from PA on their bears, is that they are
hugh and many. They estimated most 500-700 lbs, with a few spotted
slightly heavier. The report stated that throughout the state there are
approx. 9000.
Also any tips for calling bears?
Thanks Larry
L.Murray and M.Murray
San Antonio, Texas
"Having a good day"
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Thomas Fournier
LMurray323 wrote:
>
> I opted this year to hunt black bear in the mountains of PA. I have
> bought a Marlin 45-70 (500 grain bullet). I wanted a weapon that
> packed a punch. The downside to this weapon is that the bullet has an
> exiting speed of 1800 fps. After 100 yds, it falls like a bowling
> bear. Is this too much gun?
In Hornady reloading manuals they recommend 350 round nose bullets for
all North American game in heavy 45-70 loads. They also list loads that
develop pressures that are appropriate for Marlins. Shop around, check
out some manuals, and buy one. They provide information you can trust,
unlike most of what you hear at the gun shop or on the net.
The 350 grain bullet will be entirely adequate, and you will be able to
push it faster and flatter than a 500 grainer.
> And my other question will I prbably be still standing after I fire
> this rifle? The shop owner said that it should recoil a little
> stronger than a 30.06. SNIP
A 458 Win Mag fires 500 grainers at 2000-2100 fps. Since your Marlin is
shooting nearly as fast as the 458, it will recoil very much like a
458. IOW your Marlin will recoil about twice as much as a 30-06. I
think that gun shop owner was just trying to sell off 500 grain bullets
that have no hunting application in North America. Remember, the 458
with a 500 grain bullet was designed as cape buffalo/elephant/etc
slayer. Even a 700 pound black bear is puny compared to a cape buffalo.
Keep your stick on the ice,
Thos.
JayStr
LMurray323 wrote:
>
> I opted this year to hunt black bear in the mountains of PA. I have bought
> a Marlin 45-70 (500 grain bullet). I wanted a weapon that packed a punch.
> The downside to this weapon is that the bullet has an exiting speed of 1800
> fps. After 100 yds, it falls like a bowling ball.
> off, injured bear.
> Is this too much gun?
rifle?
> The shop owner said that it should recoil a little stronger than a 30.06.
> hugh and many. They estimated most 500-700 lbs, with a few spotted
> slightly heavier. The report stated that throughout the state there are
> approx. 9000.
> Also any tips for calling bears?
>
> Thanks Larry
>
> L.Murray and M.Murray
> San Antonio, Texas
>
There is no factory load for the 45-70 that loads 500-grainers to 1800
fps, so I presume you are using some king-hell handloads -- those WILL
bruise your shoulder. These are the sorts of loads that folks use in
Alaska, who have to contend with the REALLY big bears. For black bear in
the lower 48, I would frankly wrinkle my nose & wonder if it is
necessary to put up with all that recoil. It is not too much gun for the
BEAR, but may be for the average shooter.
Factory loads either push a 300-grainer at 1880 fps or a 405-grain
bullet at 1330 fps; either is entirely suitable for hogs, black bear,
elk, moose, very small armored vehicles, etc. in timber/brush country.
Recoil from these is similar to a 30-06, but is more of a slow push than
a sharp punch. I only weigh 150 lbs, but I find my dad's Marlin 45-70 to
be very comfortable to shoot. For bigger black bear like you describe, I
would go with Remington's 405-grain flatnose.
Good hunting! You have got a good gun in a great cartridge that will
slap down any black bear ever born, guaranteed... but you may want to
put away those mega-handloads for some kind of an emergency. Like a
rabid Mack truck.
-- Jay Stranahan
PS: I would recommend a peep sight for brush hunting, like my dad has,
rather than any sort of scope. If those mountains are anything like ours
here in northern CA, a scope will just get in the way and hang up on
things and show you too much too close most of the time. Also, get a
good military-style sling for it that you can tighten up when you are
not carrying it over your shoulder, so it will not hang up on things
either.
Shaun PM
I dont think i would worry about too much gun there, but too little gun.
like you said tracking pissed off injured bears is well, a bear. If you
can, you might want to go to a smaller weight of bullet, i am not sure
what all is out there as far as selection goes, but the 350 grain RN
hornady is quite potent. It will travel out the barrel at about 2100 fps
and have 3427 ft.lbs of energy at the muzzle. Although the ballistic
coefficient is almost .1 less the trajectory is almost 4 inches higher all
along its flight path if zeroed at 100 yds. than your 500gr at 1800fps with
3597 ft.lbs energy. Maybe the recoil will be a little softer on your
shoulder too.
Shaun Mollohan
sha...@aol.com
Varmint Hunters Association Member (#31390)
"The death of democracy is not likely to be assassination from ambush. It
will be a slow extinction from apathy, indifference, and undernourishment."
-- Robert M. Hutchins
JayStr
> In Hornady reloading manuals they recommend 350 round nose bullets for
> all North American game in heavy 45-70 loads. They also list loads that
> develop pressures that are appropriate for Marlins. Shop around, check
> out some manuals, and buy one. They provide information you can trust,
> unlike most of what you hear at the gun shop or on the net.
>
> The 350 grain bullet will be entirely adequate, and you will be able to
> push it faster and flatter than a 500 grainer.
>
I am not trying to kibitz, but is that bullet safe in leverguns? It
looks more like a spitzer bullet with a little flat point of exposed
lead, not a true flatnose. I cannot find my Speer manual right now;
could you look it up & post what the test gun is for that particular
bullet (Ruger #1? Thompson Contender?) Otherwise somebody may wind up
with a chain ignition on their hands....
-- Jay Stranahan
Brian and Terri Williams
> Is this too much gun?
> And my other question will I prbably be still standing after I fire this
rifle?
> The shop owner said that it should recoil a little stronger than a 30.06.
> Also the latest info that I got from PA on their bears, is that they are
> hugh and many. They estimated most 500-700 lbs, with a few spotted
> slightly heavier. The report stated that throughout the state there are
> approx. 9000.
I own and shoot a Ruger No.1 in 45-70 and she is quite a sweet shooter. My
lyman manual lists a 405 grainer at 2100 fps as putting out around
28,000cup which is ok for a Ruger no1 or 3 but I would be more than
squeemish about putting a load like you describe into any lever action
rifle. I prefer to keep lever gun loads around 26,000 at maximum, even in
my Rugers.
The .45-70 is a sweet round - I use it for Roosevelt elk as well as deer
and bear. If you handload you can take it all the way from blackpowder to
loads that duplicate the .458WinMag in case you run into any pissed off
bull elephants in the Cascades.
Dale Anderson
Thomas Fournier <drt...@istar.ca> wrote:
>LMurray323 wrote:
>>
>> I opted this year to hunt black bear in the mountains of PA. I have
>> bought a Marlin 45-70 (500 grain bullet). I wanted a weapon that
>> packed a punch. The downside to this weapon is that the bullet has an
>> exiting speed of 1800 fps. After 100 yds, it falls like a bowling
>> ball. SNIP the last thing I want to do is track a pissed off, injured
>> bear. Is this too much gun?
>
>In Hornady reloading manuals they recommend 350 round nose bullets for
>all North American game in heavy 45-70 loads. They also list loads that
>develop pressures that are appropriate for Marlins. Shop around, check
>out some manuals, and buy one. They provide information you can trust,
>unlike most of what you hear at the gun shop or on the net.
>
Rick Jamison wrote an excellent article in Shooting Times a few months
ago about developing 45-70 elk loads specifically for the Marlin
1895SS. Following his advice, I am now loading the Speer 400gr
flatnose (safer in a magazine tube than round nose bullets, especially
in a heavy recoiling lever gun) to just under 1800fps for big elk in
heavy Colorado timber. The recoil is certainly an issue, even though
my 'Co-pilot' style Marlin has been ported and has a Decellerator
recoil pad. However, once you have spent some painful time at the
range working up loads and familiarizing yourself with the rifle, you
would probably not be bothered 'much' in the field. BTW, I fully
agree with another poster who recommends a receiver sight. I love
mine and am confident with it on elk out to 170 yards (point blank
range with a 7" vital zone) though most shots in timber are under half
that distance.
Dale Anderson
Boulder, Colorado
da...@ix.netcom.com
James Johnson
On Mon, 29 Sep 1997, LMurray323 wrote:
> I opted this year to hunt black bear in the mountains of PA. I have bought
> a Marlin 45-70 (500 grain bullet). I wanted a weapon that packed a punch.
> The downside to this weapon is that the bullet has an exiting speed of 1800
> fps. After 100 yds, it falls like a bowling ball.
If you are getting 1800 fps from a 500 gr bullet out of a Marlin, you are
probably only a trigger pull or two away from a detonation. Hot
handloads for the Marlin with a 300 grain bullet are pushing it at 2000
fps. Not only is the 500 gr bullet nearly twice as heavy, but it must be
seated very deep in the case to feed in the Marlin. If you've figured
out a way to safely achieve 500 gr. @ 1800 fps, let me know. I suspect
that the shop owner overstated the bullet weight, though.
> I want to try calling bears this year, and have heard that they can come
> in pretty aggressive, and the last thing I want to do is track a pissed
> off, injured bear.
> Is this too much gun?
I think the .45-70 Marlin is a great gun. And the typical factory loads
(300 gr. @ 1800, 400 gr. @ 1500) are well matched to pissed off black bears.
> And my other question will I prbably be still standing after I fire
> this rifle? The shop owner said that it should recoil a little stronger
> than a 30.06.
That's about right in my experience. If you plan on shooting more than a
few rounds from the bench, I'd suggest using a sissy bag. And replace
that hard plastic buttplate with a rubber recoil pad.
> Also the latest info that I got from PA on their bears, is that they are
> hugh and many. They estimated most 500-700 lbs, with a few spotted
> slightly heavier. The report stated that throughout the state there are
> approx. 9000.
They must be weighing the bears with the same scale they use for the
bullets. Black bears max out around 600 lbs or so, 700 lbs is a good
sized grizzly. I doubt that most bears in PA are 500-700 lbs. I'd bet
that most are @ 300 lbs give or take.
> Also any tips for calling bears?
A slightly heavier than 700 lb black bear?
How about "Hey lardass!" ?
Jim Johnson
Rich Pierson
James Johnson wrote:
>
> They must be weighing the bears with the same scale they use for the
> bullets. Black bears max out around 600 lbs or so, 700 lbs is a good
> sized grizzly. I doubt that most bears in PA are 500-700 lbs. I'd bet
> that most are @ 300 lbs give or take.
>
> > Also any tips for calling bears?
>
> A slightly heavier than 700 lb black bear?
> How about "Hey lardass!" ?
We have three Black Bears in our neighborhood. The
Game Commission warden judged one of the three males
as between 670 and 700 lbs and he's been in the
business for quite a few years. The "average" here
has been 475lbs. They have developed a penchant for
garbage cans, this has resulted in my carrying a
12ga Winchester pump slug gun with a mag lite on
the magazine when I take my dog out for his last
walk of the nite. I don't know if they are dangerous
but I have noticed that there are not so many loose
dogs around any more [we used to have alot of "vacation
dogs", city people buying a dog for vacation and then
letting it go before they head back to the NYC apartment".
What amazes me is how damn fast one of those 700lb
"lardass's" can cover ground, so far in the opposite
direction.
--
*************************************************
Richard J. Pierson
fi...@ptd.net
My opinions are my own as are my mistakes...
*************************************************
AShavers
James wrote:
> Also any tips for calling bears?
A slightly heavier than 700 lb black bear?
How about "Hey lardass!" ?
Jim Johnson
That is sooooo funny! I really got a belly busting laff frpm that.
Thankx
STAN
H.Selvitella
On Tue, 30 Sep 1997 07:47:20 +0000, JayStr <jay...@best.com> wrote:
>LMurray323 wrote:
>>
>> I opted this year to hunt black bear in the mountains of PA. I have bought
>> a Marlin 45-70 (500 grain bullet). I wanted a weapon that packed a punch.
>> The downside to this weapon is that the bullet has an exiting speed of 1800
>> fps. After 100 yds, it falls like a bowling ball.
>> I want to try calling bears this year, and have heard that they can come
>> in pretty aggressive, and the last thing I want to do is track a pissed
>> off, injured bear.
>> Is this too much gun?
Query:
Black bear skittish as hell--long gone before you see him.
2 shots I've heard of close-range: treed by dogs or feeding at the
dump! (or baited.)
PA black bear different than N.Maine? Close range, heavy brush.
Season? Supposed to be real wormy after early spring ie: out of
season? Or what's the point?