Lever-action with Nosler Balistic tips?
Mike Sawyer
I know that with the tubular magazines of lever-action hunting guns, you
need to be careful about the shape of the bullet on the cartridges you
load. i.e., pointy-pointy=boom-boom. So the conventional wisdom is to
use round-nose or flat-nose (not even hollow-point) in tubular magazines
for centerfires.
But I 'been wonderin' (uh, oh...) If you have Nosler balistic tips loaded,
wouldn't you be safe? I'm wondering if the plastic tips are "soft" enough
to not pose a hazard to the primer of the cartridge in front of it.
If Nosler balistic tips are safe, wouldn't that be a ballistically superior load
to the round- or flat-nose options?
Mike Sawyer
Technical Writer
CallWare Technologies, Inc.
Tom Aiken
Mike Sawyer wrote:
>
> I know that with the tubular magazines of lever-action hunting guns,
> to not pose a hazard to the primer of the cartridge in front of it.
>
NO. The ballistic tips I have seen were hard plastic, and the nice sharp
point that makes them fly so nice, would make an outstanding firing pin.
The only only only way I would use this load is if I only loaded the gun
2 at a time. Load one, chamber it, load another. Leave the rest of the
bok in the truck to aviod any possible stupidity, and great unhappiness.
Tom Aiken
Redbeard
In article <s236ee...@CallWare.com>,
Mike Sawyer <MSa...@CallWare.com> wrote:
>I know that with the tubular magazines of lever-action hunting guns, you
>need to be careful about the shape of the bullet on the cartridges you
>load. i.e., pointy-pointy=boom-boom.
>
>to not pose a hazard to the primer of the cartridge in front of it.
>
Mike,
The Ballistic Tips are not soft enough to be safe in a tubular
magazine. But what you can do is load one in the chamber and one in
the tube mag. and have a nice two shot repeater. This would give you
better ballistics - you just have to not need a third shot :-)
Good shootin,
Bob
--
Right now I'm having amnesia and deja vu at the same time. I think I've
forgotten this before. Steven Wright
Bob Schmidt | redb...@virginia.edu | holmes.acc.virginia.edu/~rjs7m | ITC-USD
jones
Mike Sawyer wrote:
> But I 'been wonderin' (uh, oh...) If you have Nosler balistic tips loaded,
> wouldn't you be safe? I'm wondering if the plastic tips are "soft" enough
> to not pose a hazard to the primer of the cartridge in front of it.
Kind of an interesting idea.
I don't know but I just checked the Nosler manual and they list only flat
point bullets for the 30-30. This would seem to indicate that they do not
intend the BT to be used in a 30-30.
The flip side to that is that we sure would be lacking today if it were
not for folks figuring out creative uses for things that they were not
intended for. But, I still wouldn't offer up my 30-30 for the tests:-)
> If Nosler balistic tips are safe, wouldn't that be a ballistically superior
load
> to the round- or flat-nose options?
I've been having fun with a ballistics program I got a while back.
Basically I've mostly been trying to correlate data that I get shooting
with what the program calaculates. One thing that kind of supprised me
was that, everything else being equal, BC makes no practical difference
for the first couple hundred yards. As far as point blank range goes, you
might get something like an extra 15 yards using a really high BC bullet
over a really crummy BC bullet.
Now I can see if one intended on taking those 500y shots BC could get a
little more important but I don't think I would select a 30-30 if I was
going to shoot that far anyway.
---
Red
---
BRN BEAR94
I hope you are just joking! Those polycarbonate tips are a lot harder
than the lead in most spitzers/spirepoints and you would have a "dynamite"
combination in your hands. Surely you wouldn't have to fire it more than
once.
If you insist on lever action try one of the rotary mags or clip fed
Savage 99 or
Win 88 if you can find one.
Robert H. Dunaway
Mike Sawyer <MSa...@CallWare.com> wrote in article
<s236ee...@CallWare.com>...
> I know that with the tubular magazines of lever-action hunting guns, you
> need to be careful about the shape of the bullet on the cartridges you
> use round-nose or flat-nose (not even hollow-point) in tubular magazines
> for centerfires.
>
loaded,
> wouldn't you be safe? I'm wondering if the plastic tips are "soft" enough
> to not pose a hazard to the primer of the cartridge in front of it.
>
superior load
> to the round- or flat-nose options?
>
The real problems you run into isn't in loading your magazine, it's the
recoil from the gun causing the bullets in the magazine to strike each
other. Frankly, I'd really question your sanity by trying such a thing.
Do yourself (and anyone around you) a favor. If you want to shoot
spizters, go out and buy yourself a 30-06 or something.
Rob
Michael Brady
In article <s236ee...@CallWare.com>, Mike Sawyer <MSa...@CallWare.com>
|> I'm wondering if the plastic tips are "soft" enough
|> to not pose a hazard to the primer of the cartridge in front of it.
You could always ask the folks at Nosler, but I'll bet the answer is no.
If you want spitzer flat trajectories from a lever gun buy the Savage 99
or the Browning BLR.
--
Michael Brady
mich...@corp.sgi.com
Rick Eads
Mike Sawyer (MSa...@CallWare.com) wrote:
: But I 'been wonderin' (uh, oh...) If you have Nosler balistic tips loaded,
: wouldn't you be safe? I'm wondering if the plastic tips are "soft" enough
: to not pose a hazard to the primer of the cartridge in front of it.
: If Nosler balistic tips are safe, wouldn't that be a ballistically superior
load
: to the round- or flat-nose options?
I had the same idea last year. I shoot a Win M94 big bore in .307
which is ballistically very similar to a .308. I single loaded 125
gr. BT bullets and found them to shoot about 1.2" average groups
at 100 yards (4 shot groups). For a lever rifle, I was very
pleased. Also the velocity of the bullets using BLC-2 was very good
(around 2800 fps). Unfortunately, the BT bullet is so long and so
pointy that if you seat a BT to a reasonable depth you will find out
that the receiver of the M94 is too short. The tip interferes with
the magazine and the carrier is unable to lift it up into the
chamber. The obvious solution is to cut the tip down, which I did
using the cut-off wheel on my Dremel tool. After I shortened the tip they
would feed just fine; however, I've never had the courage to load more than
one round in the magazine. Accuracy of the bullets with the shortened
tips was not distinguishable from standard 125 gr. BT bullets. I
tested the hardness of the BT plastic tip by placing some empty,
primed cases in a vise. I then put a BT bullet tip right on the
center of the primer and whacked the BT with a hammer. I could not
get the primer to ignite. I also tried this with a Sierra 110 gr.
HP and was able to set the primer off with one hit. I still think
the downside of a round going off in the magazine outweighs any
benefit associtated with a few more rounds. Two is often plenty
enough to get the job done when hunting.
Regards,
Rick Eads
ea...@col.hp.com
Robert E. Lee Smith
The material used in the Nosler Ballistic Tips is a polycarbonate and
designed to protect bullet noses during recoil and to act much like the
old Remington Bronze Tip for expansion. If you were to compare the
polycarbonate to conventional lead you may discover lead to be the softer
of the two. Setting off a primer does not need to that severe an impact
and I strongly suggest you dont try them in a tubular magazine unless you
limit the rifle to one in spout and one in the magazine only.
Robin
Mike Sawyer wrote:
>
> I know that with the tubular magazines of lever-action hunting guns, you
> need to be careful about the shape of the bullet on the cartridges you
> load. i.e., pointy-pointy=boom-boom. So the conventional wisdom is to
> use round-nose or flat-nose (not even hollow-point) in tubular magazines
> for centerfires.
>
> wouldn't you be safe? I'm wondering if the plastic tips are "soft" enough
> to not pose a hazard to the primer of the cartridge in front of it.
>
> If Nosler balistic tips are safe, wouldn't that be a ballistically superior
load
> to the round- or flat-nose options?
>
> Technical Writer
> CallWare Technologies, Inc.
If the ballistic tip is soft enough not to detonate the round, it will
also deform and screw the accuracy. If it is hard enough not to deform
it hard enough to detonate.
The lever guns are a medium range number and the round/flat nose works
fine. Particularly if you have to bust any brush with the round.
Robin
mhv...@uunet.uu.net
In <01bba385$a4949780$7b12...@AccessUS.accessus.net>, "Robert H. Dunaway"
<rob...@accessus.net> writes:
>The real problems you run into isn't in loading your magazine, it's the
>recoil from the gun causing the bullets in the magazine to strike each
>other. Frankly, I'd really question your sanity by trying such a thing.
>Do yourself (and anyone around you) a favor. If you want to shoot
>spizters, go out and buy yourself a 30-06 or something.
Or just consider your tublar magazine rifle a "two shot"; one
in the chamber and one in the magazine while using pointed
bullets.
Larry
Dale Anderson
mhv...@uunet.uu.net wrote:
And never, never, never have a brain fart and forget what's where.
Dale Anderson
Boulder, Colorado
da...@ix.netcom.com
Steven Speer
Tom Aiken (rta...@pacbell.net) wrote:
: Mike Sawyer wrote:
: >
: > I know that with the tubular magazines of lever-action hunting guns,
: > to not pose a hazard to the primer of the cartridge in front of it.
: NO. The ballistic tips I have seen were hard plastic, and the nice sharp
: point that makes them fly so nice, would make an outstanding firing pin.
Just for the record, this point isn't what makes them fly so nice, but
it is a common misconception. Cut the tip off and see how much your group
size changes.
As for the sanity of doing this, I like what Rick Eads was able to uncover,
but Nosler does advise against this practice, which is enough for me not
to bother.
-Steve
Steven Speer
: > need to be careful about the shape of the bullet on the cartridges you
: > load. i.e., pointy-pointy=boom-boom. So the conventional wisdom is to
: > use round-nose or flat-nose (not even hollow-point) in tubular magazines
: > for centerfires.
: >
: > But I 'been wonderin' (uh, oh...) If you have Nosler balistic tips loaded,
: > to not pose a hazard to the primer of the cartridge in front of it.
: >
: load
: > to the round- or flat-nose options?
: >
: > Mike Sawyer
: > Technical Writer
: > CallWare Technologies, Inc.
: If the ballistic tip is soft enough not to detonate the round, it will
: also deform and screw the accuracy. If it is hard enough not to deform
: it hard enough to detonate.
: The lever guns are a medium range number and the round/flat nose works
: fine. Particularly if you have to bust any brush with the round.
Could we get a monthly FAQ/Myth posting up about stuff like this? Bullet
nose shape has NOTHING to do with the bullets ability to "bust brush".
There have been some wonderful studies done to show that virtually no slug
of any kind can be relied upon to find it's mark when shooting through
brush regardless of nose shape, slug weight or bullet velocity. Yes, the
latter two will show different results (the first variable doesn't) but
not sufficiently different to justify the practice or the belief. I'm not
going to go dig the reference up again, I've offered it a couple dozen times
over the years and so have many others. It's really disheartening to see
these myths living on no matter how tirelessly they are shot down. An FAQ
posting might get a few of the newer people to go poke around at Deja-News
or some other archive site to find all of the really good information that's
been passed around here.
-Steve
Charlie Sorsby
In article <52ccpn$j...@fcnews.fc.hp.com>,
Steven Speer <s...@hpfcla.fc.hp.com> wrote:
= Tom Aiken (rta...@pacbell.net) wrote:
=
= : NO. The ballistic tips I have seen were hard plastic, and the nice sharp
= : point that makes them fly so nice, would make an outstanding firing pin.
=
= Just for the record, this point isn't what makes them fly so nice, but
It appears to me that the "fly-so-nice" issue is really two issues.
1. The sharp point and related features of shape are to improve
ballistic coefficient and, so, remaining velocity.
2. If that sharp point is exposed lead, it is easily deformed
which, I believe, *can* affect trueness of flight (as well as
remaining velocity), just as deformed pellets in one's shot charge
tend to move away from the center of that charge's trajectory (and
to lose velocity more rapidly).
Whether the effect is significant with the amount of deformation
that typically takes place is another issue, especially when
considered in comparison with the capability of the average
hunting rifle (not to mention the average hunter).
= it is a common misconception. Cut the tip off and see how much your group
= size changes.
=
= As for the sanity of doing this, I like what Rick Eads was able to uncover,
= but Nosler does advise against this practice, which is enough for me not
= to bother.
Amen!
If pointed softnose (i.e. exposed lead) bullets are a problem and
the plastic (polycarbonate?) is harder than the lead ... Not for
me.
= -Steve
--
Best,
Charlie "Older than dirt" Sorsby Los Alamos, NM "I'm the NRA!"
c...@swcp.com www.swcp.com/~crs Life Member since 1965
Steven Speer
Charlie Sorsby (c...@swcp.com) wrote:
: In article <52ccpn$j...@fcnews.fc.hp.com>,
: Steven Speer <s...@hpfcla.fc.hp.com> wrote:
: = Tom Aiken (rta...@pacbell.net) wrote:
: =
: = : NO. The ballistic tips I have seen were hard plastic, and the nice sharp
: = : point that makes them fly so nice, would make an outstanding firing pin.
: =
: = Just for the record, this point isn't what makes them fly so nice, but
: It appears to me that the "fly-so-nice" issue is really two issues.
: 1. The sharp point and related features of shape are to improve
: ballistic coefficient and, so, remaining velocity.
: 2. If that sharp point is exposed lead, it is easily deformed
: which, I believe, *can* affect trueness of flight (as well as
: remaining velocity), just as deformed pellets in one's shot charge
: tend to move away from the center of that charge's trajectory (and
: to lose velocity more rapidly).
: Whether the effect is significant with the amount of deformation
: that typically takes place is another issue, especially when
: considered in comparison with the capability of the average
: hunting rifle (not to mention the average hunter).
Yes, Yes and Exactly! Many people don't grasp the relationship between
all three points made above and simply assume it's been "precision honed"
to fly straighter for some reason (as opposed to boomarangs perhaps?) and
the issue isn't anywhere near that simple. It gets worse when many people
figure out the BT is really accurate and attribute it to the nose as opposed
to the base and balance (which together, I'm fairly certain, accounts for
virtually all of the accuracy differences most shooters note).
-Steve
TSBench
In article <52e9kc$9...@sloth.swcp.com>, Charlie Sorsby <c...@swcp.com>
writes:
>If pointed softnose (i.e. exposed lead) bullets are a problem and
>the plastic (polycarbonate?) is harder than the lead ... Not for
>me.
>
>= -Steve
For a premium lever action, tubular magazine bullet, try the PMC Starfire
30-30...a combination of the Barnes X and the PMC Starfire pistol bullet.
Everyone I've talked to tells me it works.
Regards,
TSB