Hot Loads For .375 H&H
Jim Cuda
A few months ago I was working up loads for my .375. I was using a 300 grain
Swift A-Frame behind up to 84 grains of IMR 4350 with a Fed. 215 primer.
This delivered well over 2700 fps MV. Actually with 83 grains the bullet
left the muzzle at well over 2700 fps and was much easier to seat although it
was still a compressed load requiring a drop tube. I could see no pressure
signs from the cases coming out of my Winchester M70 Stainless Classic. I
looked for the normal signs such as flattened primers, sticky cases, and
expansion above the belt. Nothing whatsoever.
However a couple of people told me that velocity like that was not possible
with an unimproved .375. At least not safely possible. They said that I
could start having problems if I took it to Africa in warm weather. The
temperature was 80 degrees when I made these tests. So it wasn't exactly
cold out.
But being of a careful nature when it comes to guns I backed the load off
clear to 80 grains which delivered over 2600 fps MV.
Anyway I just got a book last week called "Big Bore Rifles and Cartridges"
from Wolfe Publishing Company , 1991. In this book there is an article by
Bob Hagel that lists a 300 grain Hornady SP with 84 grains of IMR-4350 with a
muzzle velocity of 2704. It states that the load is "compressed to the
limit". At the bottom of the loading data it says: "While all of these loads
were loaded to full power they were held below pressures that will give any
kind of trouble in big game hunting. They are not recommended for use in any
other rifle without stating several grains below and working up." The test
rifle was a Winchester M70.
Hagel also says on page 201 speaking about the IMR-4350 load - "It has to be
compressed to the very limit of seating for the load listed in the table with
the Hornady RN bullet, and this charge could not be used behind the longer
300-grain Nolser., In the test rifle this charge was certainly not
excessive, but a heavier charge could not be tested. The slower but denser
Norma 205 proved to give much higher velocity and did not require as much
compression."
My questions are has anyone else worked up loads similar to this? Have you
used them in warm climates with satisfactory results? Also what is a powder
that can be substituted for Norma 205 now that it is no longer available
here?
Regular reloading manuals list something like 75 grains of IMR-4350 as max on
a 300 grain bullet. I believe this might be because the cartridge has been
around since 1912 and there are a lot of old, not so strong actions around.
Any truth to this? I mean I am WAY over the max on this load. I certainly
can't get that high over recommended on a 7mm-08 or a .300 Win. Seems I read
that safe pressure levels have been raised on modern rifles. Anyone know on
this?
I like the idea of 2700 fps and a 300 grain bullet. Although 2600 fps seemed
to drop a big elk pronto.
Jim
Tom Grover
In article <96111818501...@emout13.mail.aol.com>,
Jim Cuda <Jim...@aol.com> wrote:
:A few months ago I was working up loads for my .375. I was using a 300 grain
:Swift A-Frame behind up to 84 grains of IMR 4350 with a Fed. 215 primer.
: This delivered well over 2700 fps MV. Actually with 83 grains the bullet
:left the muzzle at well over 2700 fps and was much easier to seat although it
:was still a compressed load requiring a drop tube.
Jim,
I think you've hit on a couple of primary points in your note about max
loads compared to the printed data, here are my opinions:
Not all bullets are created equal. Loading books generally report
a bullet weight, but not necessarily which bullets, some may cause
higher pressures and therefore the data may have to be a bit conservative.
Also in the case of an old-line cartridge like .375H&H, loading
data may also be even more conservative in deference to older guns
still existant.
And, more recent load manuals have become even more conservative
on load data in most cases.
And, more modern rounds started life closer to max acceptable pressure
levels, so in comparison there's not as much "headroom" with them when working
near maximum in modern firearms as might be with "older" cartridges.
Finally, not all guns are created equal. Your Winchester, along
with the Swift A-Frame, may simply be able to tolerate the heavier
loading without getting into an unsafe situation, similar to the article
you reference.
In .357Mag for example, the current Hodgdon manual lists 13.5gr of H110 max
under a 170gr JHP. However, one of the writers in a gun magazine has
repeatedly published a load with 15.5gr as a pet load in his Colt Python.
And older loading books similarly show around 2gr over the current Hodgdon
listings for other bullet weights.
If it were me, I'd consider backing off for these reasons:
1) If you do actually take it to Africa, you may fire a round from a gun
sitting in the hot sun well over 100degF, and a little safe margin is probably
a good thing,
2) If you end up facing dangerous game, you'll be better off psychologically
speaking, if you don't have to worry about any slight possibility of sticky
extraction under adverse conditions. At least I would.
Tom Grover - tgr...@flyer.us.dell.com
==
I don't speak for Dell.
Jim Cuda
Jim,
Tom,
Good answer! I guess a good answer is one the listener wants to hear! What
you say is pretty much what I thought. I still would like to use the load,
or a similar load in Africa. Since it has only been over 100 degrees once in
Seattle, the only way I can test them in that sort of heat is a trip to
Eastern Washington in the summer.
I do have the formula for pressure increase related to temperature. The only
problem is that I have no way of knowing the actual pressure of the load at
80 degrees F. I could test it by increasing velocity and working the
velocity increase back to pressure if it weren't for the fact that I can't
put any more powder in the case!
I wonder if this Bob Hagel fellow would really recommend this load if it
wasn't safe in warm weather. After all the .375 H&H is used in warm weather
quite a bit. And most of these writers are very lawsuit conscience.
As far as sticky cases and dangerous game goes, I agree with you. One nice
thing about the .375 H&H versus improved versions of the round is that the
H&H has that old fashioned radical taper. That is why some people prefer it
to the improved versions. It chambers easily and extracts easily. Just the
camming action of the bolt is enough to break it free in most sticky round
situations. Of course it would be better if it didn't stick at all!
Still if there is anyone out there that has used a .375 H&H load traveling at
over 2700 fps with a 300 grain bullet in warm climates I would like to hear
from them. I will say that last July in Africa warm weather certainly wasn't
a problem. I was warmer elk hunting here in Washington last week.
Jim
Jim Carlson
I have a Browning Stainless Stalker in .375 H&H (26 inch barrel). Using
the 300 gr. Swift A-Frame, I find that my maximum load is 78 gr. IMR4350,
WW brass, and Federal 215 primers for 2589 fps. My criteria for
determining maximum is expansion just above the belt (.001 max), ease of
extraction and primer condition. The above load is easy to extract but
just meets the other two signs. I stopped there. This testing was on a
rare 90 degree Northwest Oregon day.
Bye the way, 84 gr. of IMR4350 behind the 250 gr. Swift yields 2810 fps,
with the same minimal pressure signs. It may be that my brass is a
little softer or my powder a little quicker than yours.
I have Bob Hagel's article, and I can hardly believe that he could get so
much powder into the case. I can't. His cases must have had thinner
walls or something.
Good hunting,
Jim
Marius Ferreira
Jim Cuda wrote:
> I do have the formula for pressure increase related to temperature. The only
> problem is that I have no way of knowing the actual pressure of the load at
> 80 degrees F. I could test it by increasing velocity and working the
> velocity increase back to pressure if it weren't for the fact that I can't
> put any more powder in the case!
>
> I wonder if this Bob Hagel fellow would really recommend this load if it
> wasn't safe in warm weather. After all the .375 H&H is used in warm weather
> quite a bit. And most of these writers are very lawsuit conscience.
>
> As far as sticky cases and dangerous game goes, I agree with you. One nice
> thing about the .375 H&H versus improved versions of the round is that the
> H&H has that old fashioned radical taper. That is why some people prefer it
> to the improved versions. It chambers easily and extracts easily. Just the
> camming action of the bolt is enough to break it free in most sticky round
> situations. Of course it would be better if it didn't stick at all!
>
> Still if there is anyone out there that has used a .375 H&H load traveling at
> over 2700 fps with a 300 grain bullet in warm climates I would like to hear
> from them. I will say that last July in Africa warm weather certainly wasn't
> a problem. I was warmer elk hunting here in Washington last week.
> Jim
Jim,
I have to agree with Tom in that, if I were you, I would back down that
load a bit. I do not know your powders, as they are not freely
available here in South Africa, so I can only speak on our local
powders, all produced by Somchem.
As you most probably know, African hunters has a love-affair with two rifles:
.375 H&H ( a happy medium )
a big-bore double
In the May and June issues of MAN/Magnum magazine, the best ( no
affiliations other than a subscriber and avid reader ) hunting/gun
magazine in South Africa, they had articles on "Bullets for Big Game"
using, you guessed it, the .375
In August they also had a four-article write-up about the .375 as an
all-round "game-getter".
Getting back to your question, and the two articles on big-ame bullets.
When using 300gr bullets, ( I'm leaving out the lighter ones ), he had
the following results:
make type MV
====================================================
GS ( local ) MHP 2433
GS ( local ) MHP 2519
GS ( local ) MHP 2440
Goodnell ( local ) Bushmaster 2470
Goodnell ( local ) MHP 2489
Barnes-X MHP 2452
Barnes-X MHP 2498
Barnes-X MHP 2479
Barnes-X MHP 2291
Nosler Partition 2472
Nosler Partition 2466
Woodleigh ( Australian ) JSP 2535
Woodleigh ( Australian ) JSP 2490
Woodleigh ( Australian ) JSP 2439
Woodleigh ( Australian ) JSP 2420
Woodleigh ( Australian ) JSP 2380
Stewart HiPJSP 2550
Stewart HiPJSP 2566
Stewart HiPJSP 2487
Stewart HiPJSP 2391
Goodnel Mon Solid 2511
Goodnel Mon Solid 2476
Barnes Mon Solid 2539
Barnes Mon Solid 2502
Barnes Mon Solid 2484
Woodleigh FMJ 2498
Woodleigh FMJ 2482
RWS Factory load FMJ 2537
Winchester Factory load FMJ 2483
Legend:
MHP Monolithic Hollow Point
JSP Jacketed Soft Point
Test equipment:
Cases: PMP ( local )
Primers: CCI 250 Magnum
Test rifle: Musgrave ( local ) M98 Mauser action
24" barrel
As you will notice, none of these get to the velocities you were
mentioning. I am not saying they cannot be reached, nor that they are
unsafe under our African conditions - but I will not advise it, nor will
many more experienced hunters, both professionals and sportsmen like
myself.
I also remembered the following, and thought you might enjoy it:
""We were out one day very early in the safari, and found a very good
buff in a herd. One of the men hit it, and the buff went off on its
own. Although it was losing a lot of blood, we followed it for over an
hour into some of Capstick's famous long grass. ( MF He is referring to
Peter Capstick's books, especially "Death in the Long Grass" - excellant
reading ) At twenty yards, it jumped out, half invisible. I yelled for
the men to fire and both did, as the animal began an immediate charge.
I also shot. Now dream of this: One man's magazine floor-plate sprang
open, dumping all his cartridges over his shoes, and the other guy had a
lock-tight jam! I shot twice more but the buff never faltered, even
though I could see my bullets were going into the right spot. The bull
chose me as a target. In an instant, it was on top of me...."
These were the words of professional hunter Wally Johnson, as narrated
for his biography, The Last Ivory Hunter, by Peter Capstick.
...
Wally reckons to have shot 2000 buffalo during his 47 years in the
field, and if he erred in the number it can only be for reasons of
modesty. He shot buffalo regularly as the main fare for his portes
during his ivory hunting days. He shot buffalo to make into 'chakwe', a
form of preserved game meat, as rations for various commercial
enterprises. He shot wounded buffalo while bailing out safari clients,
and he shot buffalo simply for his own sport. ..."
This is part of an article, again from MAN/Magnum, "The .375 H&H as a
Buffalo Stopper", February 1993 issue. He goes on to say that it is a
good rifle, and that there are several pro hunters, including Wally
Johnson, that used it as their sole hunting weapon. Apparently the
above incident was the only time when Johnson's skin was blemished in
his career - a remarkable feat indeed, if taking into account what he
was hunting.
Now this is not the type of situation you would want to land in, and
wonder about your loads.....
( Damn, that took some typing )
Hope this helps.
Marius Ferreira
Pretoria
South Africa
Jim Cuda
Jim,
I really don't know what the deal is. There really are no pressure signs
with 83 grains and only slight pressure signs with 84 grains in my rifle, a
M70 Winchester Stainless Classic. In the article Hagel was using a
Winchester M70 too.
As far as getting the powder in, it can be done. I use WW brass too. Same
primer, Fed 215. You have to use a drop tube, then either some kind of
electric device such as a transformer or electric shaver to set the tray of
cartridges on and let the powder settle. Or alternately tap each case
several times with a small tool such as a wrench. Then you have to very
slowly seat the bullet and crimp it or it will pop back up. It is a real
pain but once they are loaded you don't have to worry about the bullets
backing into the cases from recoil! When I dropped it down to 83 grains it
was much easier to load.
I don't have the article in front of me, but I believe that Hagel claimed it
was impossible to get too much IMR-4350 in the .375 H&H case to be unsafe, at
least in the Winchester test rifle. There are a lot of old .375's around. A
lot of conversions too. So maybe that it is why all the reloading manuals
list much slower loads. Hagel's article is the first I have seen that lists
that hot a load for a .375 H&H. Maybe his publisher has good insurance. He
does state the usual warnings about starting a couple of grains lighter than
listed; that this was safe in the test rifle and not necessarily in the
reader's rifle, etc.
Maybe it is all jsut the differences in rifles. (I did test the ammo on two
different chronos so that isn't it).
Still I am going to test the ammo further when the weather gets warmer before
settling on this load for Africa. In the snow it is fine. At least in my
rifle.
Tim Calvin
Jim Cuda <Jim...@aol.com> wrote in part:
>As far as getting the powder in, it can be done. I use WW brass too. Same
>primer, Fed 215. You have to use a drop tube, then either some kind of
>electric device such as a transformer or electric shaver to set the tray of
>cartridges on and let the powder settle. Or alternately tap each case
>several times with a small tool such as a wrench. Then you have to very
>slowly seat the bullet and crimp it or it will pop back up. It is a real
>pain but once they are loaded you don't have to worry about the bullets
>backing into the cases from recoil! When I dropped it down to 83 grains it
>was much easier to load.
Just to take a guess, I would say that you have altered the burning
characteristics of the powder by severely compacting it. In effect, you
have made the pressure curve flatter on top, the same as is attained with
slower burning powders. If this is true, it may not be a reliable event.
Just as reduced charges can sometimes cause high pressure because the
primer is able to ignite a larger surface area of powder, the event varies
in that it doesn't happen every time. It seems that packing the powder
consistently would tend to make for consistent ignition, but I would be
leary of trying to make a powder perform differently just by how it is
compressed in the case (in other words, the success of the load is
dependent on the way the case is filled or the tightness of the crimp).
Matunas addresses this issue of how-much-to-compress in Lyman's 47th
Reloading Handbook (and specifically says that the crimp should not be
required to prevent the bullet from creeping as the compressed powder
expands, and that extraordinary powder settling might cause a change in
ballistics. Also, I would guess that temperature changes could make a big
difference in the burn rate. Ambient temperature, cartridge temperature,
and chamber temperature all should be considered.
This is pure conjecture on my part. You are only describing a 5% over
maximum recommended charge, and it may just suit your rifle. But I would
load this load many times to be certain that variations such as powder lot,
or crimp strength, are not critical to its fine performance and apparent
safety.
Tim Calvin <timh...@quiknet.com> NRA Life Member
author of the CD-ROM "Tim Calvin's Hunting the West"
Get it from Cabela's, or call me to order with VISA/MC 1-800-215-9045.
Price: $59.95 plus $1.24 postage. CA residents must add $4.35 tax.
mike brackett
I reloaded the 300 nosler partition with 75 grains of 4350 in my gun
for cape buffalo. Whitworth express and winchester brass and federal mag
rifle primers. I could get in more powder and realise greater velocity,
but after 80 grains the bolt began to get unpredictably sticky in the
90+ weather of georgia in august.75 grains gave me 2450 to2500 fps and
consistent groups and extraction. 100 fps more means nothing on a
dangerous game rifle if you can't get the gun to extract. My advise
would be to go with a strong load but not the strongest. One thing for
sure, the buffalo dosn't give a rats'ass about your chronograph. You
won't put him down with the first shot anyway. by the way,I would advise
solids on buffalo and I also have since bought a 458 to take back. If you
need more power, get more gun. The buffalo is one BAD dude and he will
kill you if you let him. Take the risks with the game not the rifle.
mike brackett
I used whitworth 375 hh with nosler 300 and 75 gr 4350 with winchester
brass and federal primers to get 2450 to 2500fps at about 92 degrees. I
agree that 100 to 200 more fps is not as important as reliability in a
dangerous game rifle. I could get more than 80 grains in but encountered
intermittant sticky bolt lift at the higher temps 95 to 100 degrees here
in s. ga. I took a cape buffalo and came back with some personal
observations. I LOVE the partition on all game except cape buffalo- use
solids here. Also the 375 is marginal on Cape buffalo. I came back and
bought a 458. Rather than load the 375 to the extremes, I'll get a bigger
gun, even then do not expect to kill a cape with one shot.thanks.mike