Difference between Wirehair and Drathhar?
DChil...@aol.com
I keep hearing references to these being two seperate breeds.I cant tell em
apart.Is their a difference?And if there is what is it?Why do some folks
insist they have a drathhar?
.If you shaved a Wirehair/Drathhar he would look like a GSP,so I must assume
the breeding was pretty much as the GSP til say 100 years ago.Somebody in
Germany wanted a long haired dog.My guess would be for more cold water
applications.Then did a split of some sort occurr?Any one know what and why
that split occured?
.I am not in the market just curious.I got snapped at the other day,I was
informed his dog was a Drathhar.And did not need any training, his dog was a
natural.
Doug Chilson dchil...@aol.com
Todd Hedenstrom
DChil...@AOL.COM wrote:
> I keep hearing references to these being two seperate breeds.I cant tell em
> apart.Is their a difference?And if there is what is it?Why do some folks
> insist they have a drathhar?
Look at the web page at:
http://www.drahthaar.com/different.html
This page contains a *detailed* description of the differences. If
you're not very familiar with either breed, it's not surprising that you
can't tell the difference between them. Many people can't tell the
difference between an American Water Spaniel and a Boykin, either.
> .If you shaved a Wirehair/Drathhar he would look like a GSP,so I must assume
> the breeding was pretty much as the GSP til say 100 years ago.Somebody in
> Germany wanted a long haired dog.
The Deutsch-Kurzhaar (German version of the GSP) was one of the four
breeds used to create the original Drahthaar, along with the Wirehaired
Pointing Griffon (Drahthaarigen Vorstehund Griffon), the PudelPointer
(same name in German), and the Stichelhaar, which is a nearly-extinct
rough-coated continental breed. The Drahthaar was created to combine
the strong points of each- the Kurzhaar was obviously used to bring
better pointing abilities into the mix. The others each had thier
points, such as the retrieving abilities of the Pudelpointer, and the
hard coat of the Stichelhaar.
> Any one know what and why that split occured?
At the time, there was no marked 'all-around' versatile breed in
Germany, each had it's place, such as the uplands for the Kurzhaar, and
the Stichelhaar the big-game forests. The Drahthaar was meant to fill
that intermediate gap. In the last 100 years, the Kurzhaar has become a
much more versatile breed, and now the two are nearly the same in
abilities, the basic difference is coat.
> I got snapped at the other day,I was informed his dog was a Drathhar.
Many Drahthaar folks are very proud of thier controlled breeding
program, and don't like being referred to by the (incorrect) American
name, which confuses thier dogs with the Americanized dogs bred by the
AKC and FDSB.
> And did not need any training, his dog was a natural.
Riiight. At this point, he was dreaming- no dog is a total natural, not
even a Drahthaar.
--
Todd++
vom Dixie Drahthaars
http://www.drahthaar.com/
DChil...@aol.com
Todd,
Thanks for the info on wirehairs/Drathhars.Now exactly how do you tell em
apart?Is it something obvious like a extra toe?(just kidding)Ill ck out the
web page you refer to.
I was talking to this guy about doing some training this spring.He would have
no part of it.Stated his dog pointed already.And retrieved just fine.I asked
about staunch on point/whoa broke he gave me a blank look.So I then knew
where this guy was coming from.The land of Oz.Takes all sorts to make a
world.
These dogs must suffer terrible in the heat in summer.I put my GSP and
pointer under a mister.And train at daybreak in summer.
Doug Chilson dchil...@aol.com
Todd Hedenstrom
DChil...@AOL.COM wrote:
> Thanks for the info on wirehairs/Drathhars.Now exactly how do you tell em
> apart?Is it something obvious like a extra toe?(just kidding)
The main difference is the coat- Drahthaar tend to a darker, tighter
coat. Drahthaars also have a much more angular build, on average. Of
course, there are exceptions on both sides- some angular tight-coated
GWPs, and some fuzzy soft-bodied Drahthaars. About 90% of the time, I
can tell the difference by looking. When in total doubt, check the
right ear for a six-digit tattoo- Drahthaars are required to be tattooed
before they leave the breeder.
> I was talking to this guy about doing some training this spring.He would have
> no part of it.Stated his dog pointed already.And retrieved just fine.
For some people, natural pointing and retrieving is all they need or
want. That's their choice.
> These dogs must suffer terrible in the heat in summer.
Not so bad- I've got a black one, and live in Georgia, where it commonly
stays over 90 for a month or more with high humidity. I train all
summer, and have had my dog retrieving doves in a shadeless cornfield in
102 degree heat. Never had a heat problem, as the dog is smart enough
to take it easy when it's hot.
> I put my GSP and pointer under a mister.And train at daybreak in summer.
What part of the country?
DChil...@aol.com
In a message dated 97-01-05 10:28:39 EST, you write:
> What part of the country?
>
Arizona.I like it out here.Good quail hunting,even in bad years the hunting
isnt bad.Doug Chuilson dchil...@aol.com
undetermined_origin_c/o_listserv_maintainer
DChil...@AOL.COM writes:
> I keep hearing references to these being two seperate breeds.I cant tell em
> apart.Is their a difference?And if there is what is it?Why do some folks
> insist they have a drathhar?
Certain elitists will tell you that there are two different breeds, which
is untrue. The Drathhar folks are just following a breeding program to
meet their needs/wants, but its still the same animal. That's perfectly
OK, but nobody has to be snotty about it!
> .If you shaved a Wirehair/Drathhar he would look like a GSP,so I must assume
> the breeding was pretty much as the GSP til say 100 years ago.Somebody in
Ummm, wouldn't a lot of dogs look alike if you shaved them? I think there
were important differences in breeding other than the hair.
> (snip a few here. . .)
As the owner of a black and white GERMAN WIREHAIR POINTER with close bloodlines
from Germany (the dog not me), I've heard this a lot. But this is too often a
ploy by breeders who try to demonstrate that they have a superior dog by calling
it a Drathhar.
Just mine and Samantha's $.02
Todd Hedenstrom
DChil...@AOL.COM wrote:
> Arizona.I like it out here.Good quail hunting,even in bad years the hunting
> isnt bad.
I like it in Arizona, too- I hunt out there about once a year for
javelina and Gambel's quail, up on the Indian reservations. Last
January, we filmed some segments of Northwest Hunter (a TV show that's
on the Outdoor Life Network) up there, which featured me and my
Drahthaar on Gambels, in one.
Drahthaars handle that kind of hunting (cliffs, catclaw, and cactus)
quite well.
michael jones
Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer
<owner-L...@LISTSERV.TAMU.EDU> wrote:
Recent revolations about the Wirehair/Drathhar breedings brought to
light anouther sales ploy of breaders that seems to be generaly
accepted by americans when it comes to buying continental breeds.
ie: the closer your dogs blood lines to the country of orgin the
better the dog.
I have often wondered if people have ever thought about this idea.
Since WWII most dogs are no longer breed by elite individuals but by
commercial operations in Europe. Europe has few opportunities for
bird dogs to work on wild birds. Monopolistic breeding programs
controled by commercial interests coupled with the extensive use of
pen raised birds in commercial shooting clubs does not call up good
thoughts as to the quaility of the dogs or there abilities in the
field.
In America & Canada the dogs are widly breed by sportsmen for the
purpose they were origionally developed. Extensive experience on wild
birds is gained by the dogs and there ability to perform there is the
true determinate in the breeding programs. I would think that
American or Canadian breeed dogs would far outstrip European dogs. In
fact I would look upon a recent European breading as contamination of
a gene pool designed to hunt wild birds.
Couple this with the AKC 's standards for the breed and adhearance to
it can't miss.
Mike
Todd Hedenstrom
michael jones wrote:
> Recent revolations about the Wirehair/Drathhar breedings brought to
> light anouther sales ploy of breaders that seems to be generaly
> accepted by americans when it comes to buying continental breeds.
> ie: the closer your dogs blood lines to the country of orgin the
> better the dog.
Many AKC/FDSB breeders will perpetrate that myth, particularly amoung
GWP, GSP, and German Shepard breeders.
> Since WWII most dogs are no longer breed by elite individuals but by
> commercial operations in Europe.
Do what?? Have you ever been to Germany? There are no 'commercial
breeding operations' there turning out gun dogs. This one is a doozy.
> Europe has few opportunities for bird dogs to work on wild birds.
Again, you're reaching- Germany is chock full of hunters, who work on
wild birds. No, they don't have the clouds of ducks we have, nor the
fields full of pheasants, but they are in fact wild birds. What's more,
thier testing program (unlike ours) is conducted on wild birds. I've
been there and seen it with my own eyes.
> Monopolistic breeding programs controled by commercial interests
> coupled with the extensive use of pen raised birds in commercial
> shooting clubs does not call up good thoughts as to the quaility
> of the dogs or there abilities in the field.
You've gotta be thinking of England, not Germany.
> In America & Canada the dogs are widly breed by sportsmen for the
> purpose they were origionally developed.
Such as trotting around a show ring, or pointing dizzy pen-raised birds
in a field? Yes, many breeders do hunt, and breed hunting stock, but
no, it's not the majority. The majority are running field trials, hunt
tests, or shows, and trying to pass off junior titles like WCs as
'demonstrated hunting ability'.
> I would think that American or Canadian breeed dogs would far outstrip
> European dogs.
If there was the slightest breeding control mechanism, then sure, it
could happen. However, you can put your whole life into breeding the
best damn flushing pheasant dog on the planet, and next thing you know
some group is trying to make them point. That's the whole reason there
are controls on the breeding of Drahthaars- it's to prevent the kind of
thing I see happening in GWPs- a fellow here in Georgia is breeding them
to be big-running horseback field trial dogs, which is quite contrary to
thier intended use as a medium-close working foot hunter's dog.
> In fact I would look upon a recent European breading as contamination
Anytime you bread a dog, it's a sure to turn out bad. Broil them
instead. (note- if you don't get this joke, then you're humor-impaired)
> Couple this with the AKC 's standards for the breed and adhearance to
> it can't miss.
Now you're going to tell me that all AKC breeders adhere to the breed
standards?? Hang on while I catch my breath- that's a great joke.
Perhaps you can explain why the Lab folks near had a coronary when the
LRCA (that's the breed club that sets the standards for the Lab in the
AKC) changed a rule to make a deduction into a disqualification. If
breeders had been adhering to standards, it would have been a non-issue,
as all the dogs would have been within standard. As it was, *most*
breeders were breeding dogs that were out of standard, and they were
pissed because this would mean they'd have to stop doing that, and
return to the published standard.
Oh, and please quote me the AKC's performance standard. Any breed will
do. (This one should be good)
Lastly, I think it'd be wise in the future when you're trying to sound
intelligent while discussing Drahthaars if you (and the other folks who
call me 'elitist') would at least learn to properly spell the breed
name. You'd think that'd be easy, as I've given it to you quite
frequently, and cut-and-paste is not that difficult.
DChil...@aol.com
In a message dated 97-01-05 12:48:16 EST, you write:
> I hunt out there about once a year for
> javelina and Gambel's quail, up on the Indian reservations.
,Im going to San Carlos weekend after next.Its a 4 day weekend for me!Next
time you are in Arizona try the Oracle Junction area.Not freeman Road!I wont
get more specific than that on this list.
Doug Chilson dchil...@aol.com
Todd Hedenstrom
DChil...@AOL.COM wrote:
> I'm going to San Carlos weekend after next.Its a 4 day weekend for me!
If you're speaking of the weekend from the 18th through the 21st, then
watch closely, and you'll see me! I'll be there stalking the wily
javelina.
Won't have the dog along on this trip, as quail are only a sideline if
we get our peegs early, and I'm told the birds are way down anyhow.
Someday we should get together and haul on down to the Tucson area for
some Mearns hunting. I've never gotten one, and I really want to.
Also, there's another new VDD Drahthaar owner in Phoenix, and once his
pup is hunting, he'll be hot to go, too.
Seeya!
Mark Beaven
Thans for the information, because I always thought the only difference
was the Drathaar's owner wore knicker bocker pants (sp) and the wirehair
wore jeans.
Mark
Mark Beaven
BRAVO.......
Mark,
Steve Linde
Mike,
Could you please tell us about the breeding program AKC has to ensure proper
breed characteristics for ANY sporting breed? Fact is AKC has no control
over who and what is being bred. I put a lot more stock in the working tests
of NAVHDA or VDD anyday. As I understand, a true Drahthaar (VDD) can not be
bred unless it meets hunting and conformation standards. In a nutshell the
BIG differnce between the Drathaar and the German Wirehaired Pointer is that
the Drathaar has never been allowed to be bred by people that aren't
interested in keeping the true verastile German hunting dog. When was the
last time you saw a Drahthaar entered in a dog show? Not in this country.
My advice to hunters is get the Drahthaar, and to everyone else that likes
AKC get the GWP. There are too many amature breeders out there that don't
know what their doing. All AKC cares about is getting registration money. I
think VDD is a perfect model of a breeding program. As a hunter, you stand
alot better chance getting something you can train and use in the field by
getting the Drahthaar. The VDD Drahthaar has a working registry...something
AKC doesn't care about.
Steve
Thomas W. Christ
Karl Tigerstedt wrote:
>=20
> michael jones wrote:
>=20
> > I have often wondered if people have ever thought about this idea.
> > commercial operations in Europe.
> How did you make this up? Most kennels here who breed hunting dogs have
> hunters involved in the business. Have you ever been to Europe / seen
> European kennels?
>=20
> > Europe has few opportunities for bird dogs to work on wild birds.
> Again; Have you ever been to Europe / hunted here?
> Up here in Scandinavia, which IS Europe, we have excellent hunting
> possibilities: low population density and plenty of wilderness. It's
> true that pheasants and partridges are not so common here in Finland,
> but there are other species, such as grouse,capercallie and ptarmigan.
>=20
> > I would think that American or Canadian breeed dogs would far
> > outstrip European dogs.
> This is the worst patriotic fantasy-hearsay-bullshit I've heard in
> a while. However, you're free to THINK whatever you want. I'm sure
> there are excellent hunting dog breeders on the North American
> continent. But we have some, too.
>=20
> Here in Finland (can't speak for all of Europe) there is no distinction
> in the breed; no drahthaars/gwp's. Swedish speaking as I am, they are
> called "str=E4vh=E5rig vorsteher" or wirehaired vorsteher. The original
> german
> name as you probably know is: Deutscher Drahthaariger Vorstehhund.
> Certain
> kennels are more merited than others, based on how their breeding dogs
> perform
> in:
> 1) Hunting tests. (field trials...?)
> 2) Dog shows.
>=20
> For vorstehers, the hunting tests were merits are acquired can be both
> pointing dog field tests and waterfowl field tests. Dog shows are there
> for maintaining exterior qualities and conforming to breed standards.
>=20
> ---------------------------------
> Karl Tigerstedt
> Laboratory of Space Technology
> Helsinki University of Technology
Karl--I must apologize for departing from the theme of this thread, but=20
you're the first poster that I can recall from Finland, and I wanted to=20
take advantage of your experience relative to a small scandenavian=20
hunting dog called (in English) a "Finnish Spitz." According to what=20
I've read, they're used for hunting the largest of the forest grouse, the=
=20
Capercaillie cock. The story goes that the dog ranges widely in the=20
great northern pine forests, trees the Caper cock, and barks until the=20
hunter comes and pots the bird from its perch. Here in Virginia, dogs=20
are permitted for turkey hunting in the Spring (not the Fall). Rather=20
than treeing the birds, the dog breaks up the flock, and the hunter calls=
=20
from the point of the break-up to regather the birds(a hen and young in=20
the Fall). Frankly, I felt that a Finnish Spitz might have application=20
to such hunting, but I've never seen one in the US, and any that I've=20
heard about have not been hunted. I'd appreciate hearing your remarks on=
=20
hunting with the Finnish Spitz. Tom.