Richard Wolters Training Methods
Julie
Any other fans Richard Wolters?
I used his two books "Game Dog" and "Water Dog". I found them to be
the definitive bible to retreiver training. I have had success with
combining those methods with Tri-Tronics retreiver training book.
Combined you can't beat em.
Wolters is especially successful in the early stages of puppy training
(sit, stay, come).
I have found that most books use a form of Richarsd methods (James
Spencer, for example)
It was sad to see his passing.
MJ Reinsager
*********************************************
* Thinking can be hard work, which is why *
* so few engage in it.. *
* *
* juli...@worldnet.att.net *
* *
*********************************************
MARILEE THACKER
Julie responds to:
>Any other fans Richard Wolters?
>
>I used his two books "Game Dog" and "Water Dog". I found them to be
>the definitive bible to retreiver training. I have had success with
>combining those methods with Tri-Tronics retreiver training book.
>Combined you can't beat em.
I echo that.
Wolters is especially successful in the early stages of puppy training
>(sit, stay, come).
I have 3 puppies, 3mos. 7mos. and 12 mos. who are really doing well with this
method. I love it when I blow the sit whistle and down their bottoms go.
>I have found that most books use a form of Richarsd methods (James
>Spencer, for example)
>It was sad to see his passing.
I can chime in with that:-(
"A dog is smarter than some people. It wags its tail and not its tongue."
Marilee
Steven Wagle
> Any other fans Richard Wolters?
>
> I used his two books "Game Dog" and "Water Dog". I found them to be
> the definitive bible to retreiver training. I have had success with
> combining those methods with Tri-Tronics retreiver training book.
> Combined you can't beat em.
Ten years ago I used Mr. Wolters book "Gun Dog" to start training my
first GSP.
It worked out well.I have read a zillion books since then and watched
about a dozen tapes on the subject of dog training. I am lucky enough
now to work as a trainer at times and all I ever need to know is in the
pages of those three books.
The first dog I trained is now working on her AKC Master Hunting Dog
title and my second is about done with her junior title.
I highly recommend this and the other two texts metioned aboved as a
great starting point for any beginner or a "back to the real world"
brush up for any seasone dog person.
They don't make 'em like ol' Dick anymore.
Steven Wagle
Bowhuntin' Bob
Gene Colgan wrote:
snipped
> Get all three if you are a novice and ignore "Gun Dog", it was a joke when
> it was written and it's a hell of a joke now.
>
> gene colgan col...@worldnet.att.net
> Weimaraners
> Houston TX
Forgive my ignorance. As I am a novice trainer. Why is it sch a
"joke"? Granted, I am new at this, but my black lab is really
learning this tuff as told in the book. I have yet to jump in the air
& look foolish, but it'd working. and WHY does EVERYONE say to read
that book 'gun dog' to start training pups? Don't get me wrong I far
from want to put you down, I just want a field productive dog. No
trial champ. So far the book is working for me. If there is
something better I want it.
Bob
Gene Colgan
Steven Wagle <swa...@RADIKS.NET> wrote:
>Ten years ago I used Mr. Wolters book "Gun Dog" to start training my
>first GSP.
>
>It worked out well.I have read a zillion books since then and watched
>about a dozen tapes on the subject of dog training. I am lucky enough
>now to work as a trainer at times and all I ever need to know is in the
>pages of those three books.
>
>The first dog I trained is now working on her AKC Master Hunting Dog
>title and my second is about done with her junior title.
>
>I highly recommend this and the other two texts metioned aboved as a
>great starting point for any beginner or a "back to the real world"
>brush up for any seasone dog person.
>
>They don't make 'em like ol' Dick anymore.
>
>Steven Wagle
No offense Steve, but that is bull. I defy you to train a dog to be
steady using the techniques in "Gun Dog". Are you going to tell us you
trained a dog to "whoa" using the methods in that book? Sorry but I don't
believe it is possible. Furthermore to suggest that a novice should rely
solely on that book verges on fraud. There is no suggestion of what to do
when his absurd methods don't work. There is no technique suggested that
will succesfully train "whoa". His techniques for introducing birds are a
joke.
I hate to get a reputation as the "Wolters basher", his retriever books
have *some* value if you combine them with other information sources but
"Gun Dog" is, as I have said before, a *horrible* joke on the novice
pointing dog trainer.
Wolter's books have some solid points and his philosophy of training is
very positive. But a novice who uses only those books is in for a
disastrous experience. No flame intended but I seriously question someone
who claims significant experience and also says that "Gun Dog" has all the
info you need. When was the last time you read that book. Are you really
training dogs to whoa by jumping up in the air acting crazy? Are you
playing the "wing on a string" game and letting 8 week old pups catch and
chew the wings?
For the record, if you want solid books on pointing dog training get:
"Point, training the all season gun dog" Jim Spence
"Best way to train your gun dog - the Delmar Smith Method" Bill Tarrant
"Care and training of the Versatile Hunting Dog" Winterheldt and ? (the
NAVHDA "little green book")
Steve Enjada
Bob,
>Forgive my ignorance. As I am a novice trainer. Why is it sch a
>"joke"? Granted, I am new at this, but my black lab is really
>learning this tuff as told in the book. I have yet to jump in the air
>& look foolish, but it'd working. and WHY does EVERYONE say to read
>that book 'gun dog' to start training pups? Don't get me wrong I far
>from want to put you down, I just want a field productive dog. No
>trial champ. So far the book is working for me. If there is
>something better I want it.
Forgive me for throwing in my nickle's worth but... there are several books
that I think is very good especially if you are training a Retriever to
hunt. I've read gun dog and I agree it does have a few good points but not
quite enough.
What I've done in the past was gather all kinds of info I could possibly get
my hands on and found two very good books that may interest you.
1. Training The Hunting Retriever by Jerome B. Robinson
2. Training Retrievers To Handle by D.L. and Ann Walters
I've spent hundreds of dollars buying books and video tapes on training
retrievers but found that the two (2) books above is in my opinion the bible
for retriever training. And, the ultimate retriever training is to join
either an HRC or NAHRA club in your area. You can gain excellent training
knowledge from a great bunch of people every weekend.
To order the above books:
Training The Hunting Retriever - $18.95
Jerome B. Robinson
Smith Mountain Road
RR 3, Box 419
Lyme, NH 03768
and
Training Retrievers To Handle - $21.50
D.L. Walters
Route #1, Box 154
LaCygne, KS 66040
Good luck!
Steve
Email To:
tau...@sojourn.com
tauru...@aol.com
sen...@edcen.ehhs.cmich.edu
Chris Barnes
On Sat, 25 May 1996, Julie wrote:
> Any other fans Richard Wolters?
>
> I used his two books "Game Dog" and "Water Dog". I found them to be
> the definitive bible to retreiver training. I have had success with
> combining those methods with Tri-Tronics retreiver training book.
> Combined you can't beat em.
There is no doubt that Wolters did a tremendous amount of good for the
Hunting Retriever movement in this country (whether he "started" it or
not is a matter of controversy).
However, his training books are only useful for lining the bottom of bird
cages. Even Wolters himself recanted the technics and the timelines he
espouses in _Water Dog_ and _Gun Dog_. They are only useful for the most
driven of dogs, and will flat be the ruination of a dog with a softer
temprament.
Appreciate him for his efforts. Learn from someone else.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Barnes (409) 846-3273 (home)
chris-...@tamu.edu (409) 845-8300 (work)
http://helper.tamu.edu/STAFF/cbarnes/ <--- new address
Steven Wagle
> Gene Colgan wrote:
>
>
>
> > Get all three if you are a novice and ignore "Gun Dog", it was a joke when
> > it was written and it's a hell of a joke now.
I'll put any of the dozen or so dogs I have started using alot of what
is in that book against any dog you can find anywhere.
Wolter's method's are unusual, yes. There are better ways to do alot of
what is in there, granted.
For the first time owner who has no regular access to wild or even pen
raised birds, "Gun Dog" is a viable tool. It gets the dog started in the
right direction and FAST. You can do what is in there even if your only
training grounds is Central Park in New York City.
You must take the book for what it is, a tool to get someone's first dog
started for them, WITHOUT regular wild bird contact. Wolters states this
in there. He also states that alot of folks would ridicule what is in
there and for good reason.
Will anyone train a Nat'l field trial champion using this book?..No
Would I ever use the methods in it as a sole method of developing a
customer's dog? NO WAY.
But, give me that book, an 8 week old pup (most any breed) and 4 mos to
use the methods in that book and at the end of that time give me a week
to work the pup on pigeons and pen raised quail and I will be able hand
you a very well started dog that you can take hunting with any other dog
and not be embarassed.
There is more than one way to skin a cat.
I see Gene is a Weimaraner owner, and I think that is the trouble.
How can you expect to train a dog that is smarter than most people?
I have yet to see a Weimie that could honestly be "trained" using the
methods in ANY book. They are just too smart. My regular hunting partner
has one (3 yrs old). I can't say that we ever trained that dog to do
anything, but she is one heck of a hunting dog.
Steven Wagle
Colgan, Gene
I wrote:
>> Get all three if you are a novice and ignore "Gun Dog", it was a joke
>> when it was written and it's a hell of a joke now.
>>
and Bowhuntin Bob replied;
>Forgive my ignorance. As I am a novice trainer. Why is it sch a
>"joke"? Granted, I am new at this, but my black lab is really
>learning this tuff as told in the book. I have yet to jump in the air
>& look foolish, but it'd working. and WHY does EVERYONE say to read
>that book 'gun dog' to start training pups? Don't get me wrong I far
>from want to put you down, I just want a field productive dog. No
>trial champ. So far the book is working for me. If there is
>something better I want it.
>
>Bob
(A quick foreward - my definition of "acceptable hunting companion"
in retrievers - steady, marks, takes signals well enough to find a
bird, hunts dead eagerly, brings downed birds to hand *before*
they are mangled beyond repair. In pointing breeds - hunts wisely,
steady to wing & shot, honors, takes signals on hunting direction as
well as on retrieves, hunts dead eagerly, and retrieves to hand (of
course a pointing breed would never mangle a bird ;-)). These
are not high standards! Further, if a dog is going to add to the
hunting
experience rather than distracting from it he should do these things
because he *loves* the job and without *incessant* hacking by the
owner)
Now to the points at hand:
First Bob, I would hope that you are not using "Gun Dog" but rather
"Game Dog" or "Water Dog". "Gun Dog" is Wolters book purporting
to show you how to train *pointing* breeds not retrievers. I liked
"Game Dog" (with a couple of caveats), "Game Dog" is entertaining and
informative, in particular his early training suggestions for basic
commands and fetch play etc. are great.
(BTW - I would argue that the reason "EVERYONE" suggests Wolter's is
because this early stuff does work well at a stage in the pup's life
when training is easy, the negatives with "Game Dog" occur at
advanced stages with lower drive etc. Since many novice trainers are
willing to accept very subpar performance from "their" dog as opposed
to putting the much more difficult work into having a dog that adds
to the hunting experience rather that subtracting from it, they never
get to the point where the flaws in his system show up).
In addition his handling drills work very well for me in teaching my
dogs to take signals. The only problem with the book is that the good
early stuff works very well and folks then take to heart his contention
that your pup should be perfect almost instantly and he never
mentions other options/approaches (of course not, he's so busy
telling you that 15 minutes a day will give you a finished gun dog
in six months (!) how could anything go wrong, it's so *easy* ;-). This
makes people push their pups to be steady much too soon resulting
in dogs that don't reach their potential (as has been discussed here
many times). That said, I would argue that "Game Dog" is perfectly
adequate to train an acceptable hunting retriever.
However, "Gun Dog" is not the same story. First the early training
discussions are identical to his other books, nothing different is
presented. I'll say it again - I don't believe it is possible to train
a pointing breed to the level of "acceptable hunting companion" using
only the information contained in "Gun Dog". It is a crime that the
book is still sold (particularly at the price it seems to generally be
sold for) as a training manual. If a newbie is looking to train
a pointing breed, even if only to be a hunting companion, get the three
books I mentioned in my previous post and leave "Gun Dog" on the shelf.
Use the money to buy 6 extra quail or pigeons when you get to the bird
work stage - your money will be much better spent in terms
of adding quality to your hunting.
good luck
gene colgan col...@worldnet.att.net
Weimaraners
Houston TX
PS - Bob, don't read too much into my opinion - it is probably worth
what you paid for it! I'm not an expert by any means, just a guy who
likes to hunt with good dogs and has managed to bring a couple along
to reasonable approximations of the "acceptable hunting companions"
mentioned above (with lot's of help). In *spite* of "Gun Dog"
Gene Colgan
With respect to Richard Wolter's book "Gun Dog"
Steven Wagle <swa...@RADIKS.NET> wrote:
>I'll put any of the dozen or so dogs I have started using alot of what
>is in that book against any dog you can find anywhere.
>
>Wolter's method's are unusual, yes. There are better ways to do alot of
>what is in there, granted.
>
Shoot Steve, sounds like we are closer to agreement already. You agree
with me that everything you need to know is not in "Gun Dog" and that
there are better ways to do some things. My point was that telling a
novice that "Gun Dog" is a good book for a beginner is a big disservice.
IMHO any of the three books I've mentioned are much more informative as
well as more likely to deliver a quality dog.
>For the first time owner who has no regular access to wild or even pen
>raised birds, "Gun Dog" is a viable tool. It gets the dog started in the
>right direction and FAST. You can do what is in there even if your only
>training grounds is Central Park in New York City.
>
Gosh, I'd argue that it isn't possible without lots of birds, later in
your post you say you can start a dog with his methods and then spend a
week with birds to produce a started dog. I'll buy that if it is an
*intense* week, and I'd argue that it will still be a dog that needs a
knowledeable owner in order to develop into a decent hunting companion.
>You must take the book for what it is, a tool to get someone's first dog
>started for them, WITHOUT regular wild bird contact. Wolters states this
>in there. He also states that alot of folks would ridicule what is in
>there and for good reason.
>
Well, let me say that I *enjoyed* the book and maybe my statements that it
isn't possible to train a dog using his methods is an exaggeration. I'm
not that much of an expert (I'm not any kind of an expert). Further, I
think his early training approach is very good *if* you extend his
instructions not to 'expect too much but just make it fun' a bit longer
than he suggests. But I would argue that if *anyone* can train a pointing
dog using his methods it is more likely to be someone with experience. My
biggest complaint, as is probably obvious, is his approach to teaching
"whoa", he introduces it in a way that most any dog will find confusing
and then reinforces it by training sight pointing. There are much better
ways which can be done in any yard, heck, even in an apartment.
>Would I ever use the methods in it as a sole method of developing a
>customer's dog? NO WAY.
Precisely, and the novice readers shouldn't be told that his books are the
way to go or that "everything you need to know is in there"
>I see Gene is a Weimaraner owner, and I think that is the trouble.
>
>How can you expect to train a dog that is smarter than most people?
>I have yet to see a Weimie that could honestly be "trained" using the
>methods in ANY book. They are just too smart. My regular hunting partner
>has one (3 yrs old). I can't say that we ever trained that dog to do
>anything, but she is one heck of a hunting dog.
Maybe your're right, it is certainly true that Weimys are so smart they
will figure the methods out before you do. It's a lucky thing that they
are so focused on pleasing their owner or you'd be up the proverbial
creek. However, I started my first weimy with "Gun Dog" and basically
went in circles until I got "Best way to train your gun dog - the Delmar
Smith method" (which BTW I wouldn't recommend as your *only* reference
either). The methods in that book were *much* more effective for me. An
example was quartering, we lived at the time on 600+ acres of rolling
meadows near Brenham TX (aaahh, touch of nostalgia) and were able to take
the dog on long walks every day, Wolter's method of teaching quartering
was producing zero progress after *months* of this, 3 walks on a checkcord
as described in "Best way .." coupled with the hand signals described in
"Gun Dog" and the dog knew what I wanted and has never failed since.
Lest I be considered a "Wolter's hater" let me point out that I used "Game
Dog" to teach retrieving with fantastic results. Wait - let me also point
out that because he was a pointing breed I ignored Wolters obsession with
steadiness at a few months age, I didn't want him too focused on me, this
leads to problems with range in Weimies (for those who don't know almost
any mistake leads to problems with range in Weimies). So, using "Game
Dog" and ignoring his timetables I wound up with a dog that is the most
fanatical retriever I've ever hunted with and is a real *pleasure* to
shoot over.
Maybe we can just agree to disagree, however, lots of novices come to this
group for advice, I will always argue that if one wants the best odds of
being successful, buying only "Gun Dog" is a mistake, instead get the
books I have repeatedly suggested:
"Best way to train your gun dog - The Delmar Smith method"
"Point! Training the all season gun dog"
"Care and training of the versatile gun dog"
good luck
gene colgan col...@worldnet.att.net
Weimaraners
Houston Texas
BN69ers
When I first got my pup I asked a friend of mine if he could recommend any
good books to me and the first thing that he told me was to find Gun Dog.
Ok... now beings this was my first dog and many other factors ..let me
just say that i really did'nt know what i was getting into when I got my
dog. I read this book front to back several times after reading the book
I got a video and watched it, Bob West 's Point I think it was. After
watching the video I was really lost but I found my way again after
reading a couple of mags (gun dog and PDJ). I soon found that Gun Dog
really was'nt everything that I thought it was. I really think that it
teaches early socialazations well and a person can get a dog into the
"learning faze". But other than that I have to agree with the other
authors that you really can't expect a 4 mo. old pup to be stedy to wing
let alone shot. Looking back at the book and after talking to trainer in
my area and others here on this group I soon learned that Gun Dog really
was not the way to go. And if anyone ever ask me to recomend a book or
video it will not be Gun Dog!
Just my $0.02 worth,
Bryan
Chris Barnes
On Tue, 28 May 1996, Steven Wagle wrote:
> I'll put any of the dozen or so dogs I have started using alot of what
> is in that book against any dog you can find anywhere.
>
> Wolter's method's are unusual, yes. There are better ways to do alot of
> what is in there, granted.
>
>
> For the first time owner who has no regular access to wild or even pen
> raised birds, "Gun Dog" is a viable tool. It gets the dog started in the
> right direction and FAST. You can do what is in there even if your only
> training grounds is Central Park in New York City.
You are almost exactly backwards. The only place and time that Wolter's
methods MIGHT be useful is in hands of a pro, someone who knows what
they're doing.
It is true that Wolters' method *can* produce good dogs. But so can just
about anything else. The REAL question is what is applicable to the vast
majority of dogs. In the case of Wolters', he also produces a large
number of absolute and total failures - dogs that are tottally ruined.
To the point where EVERY pro I personally know is critical of the book,
and not a single one recommends it. In fact, even Wolters critizes it
later in his life.
You challenge to looking at individual dogs is meaningless.