Grouse Hunting Advice Request
The Sandula's
hunting. I've downed 7 or 8 birds out of about what seems 25 or 30
flushes where I thought I should have hit the bird.
Please help with me some of my observations:
My GSP can't seem to find a point on grouse. I can tell by her behavior
when there's birds near by and if I trust her she normally gets me a
reasonable shot if I keep her close. Usually the bird will flush 10 or
15 feet from where she's birdy. Is that normal? Will experience ever
have her pinning down grouse like she will a pheasant?
Do grouse like the low, wet areas like woodcock? It seems I run in to
grouse in just about any territory but usually where or near where the
woods seem to transition to one form or another.
There seems to be 2 kinds of flushes with grouse. 1) They flush about
10 feet high and fly fast and level. I haven't hit one bird that
flushes this way! What's the key to it? Lead them so far you think you
won't hit em? 2) They flush on about a 45 degree angle and go up about
25 or 30 feet. I usually down these birds. They seem to be going fast
as the low flushers but seem easier, for me at least, to down.
How far will a grouse normally fly after being flushed and will they
normally go in a straight line from where they head out of sight? Is it
worth trying to follow them? Will they flush to territory that will
normally have more grouse?
Thanks,
Doug Sandula
Saginaw, MI
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Deirdre Wiseman
>
>
> My GSP can't seem to find a point on grouse. I can tell by her behavior
> when there's birds near by and if I trust her she normally gets me a
> reasonable shot if I keep her close. Usually the bird will flush 10 or
> 15 feet from where she's birdy. Is that normal? Will experience ever
> have her pinning down grouse like she will a pheasant?
>
> Do grouse like the low, wet areas like woodcock? It seems I run in to
> grouse in just about any territory but usually where or near where the
> woods seem to transition to one form or another.
>
and as it gets colder, food sources close to shelter such as evergreens
and cedars.
> There seems to be 2 kinds of flushes with grouse. 1) They flush about
> 10 feet high and fly fast and level. I haven't hit one bird that
> flushes this way! What's the key to it? Lead them so far you think you
> won't hit em?
Lead underneath a bird going straight away. Most likely you are
shooting behind and above the bird.
\
Flight of bird--------------------------------------->o)>------------X
/ .
.
.
.
Direction of shot .
For proper lead on a straightaway bird
.
2) They flush on about a 45 degree angle and go up about
> 25 or 30 feet. I usually down these birds. They seem to be going fast
> as the low flushers but seem easier, for me at least, to down.
>
> How far will a grouse normally fly after being flushed and will they
> normally go in a straight line from where they head out of sight?
As far as it takes for the bird to feel safe and no, not necessarily in
a straight line.
> worth trying to follow them? Will they flush to territory that will
> normally have more grouse?
Worth following as grouse wont flush as fast on a reflush, but they wont
lead you to more grouse and they might lead you into cover that is too
thick to hunt well.
David Ebinger
> when there's birds near by and if I trust her she normally gets me a
> reasonable shot if I keep her close. Usually the bird will flush 10 or
> 15 feet from where she's birdy. Is that normal? Will experience ever
> have her pinning down grouse like she will a pheasant?
shooting a bumped bird you are reinforcing her flushing the bird.
> How far will a grouse normally fly after being flushed and will they
> normally go in a straight line from where they head out of sight? Is it
> worth trying to follow them? Will they flush to territory that will
> normally have more grouse?
>
If you follow the bird you will be putting your dog on a bird with no
scent cone developed.
David Ebinger
Deirdre Wiseman
> scent cone developed.
>
dogs have no problem pointing the same grouse after it has flushed once.
Going after a second flush on the same bird is no different than going
after a few singles after a covey flush on quail. Most of the time it
takes a couple of minutes to get up to where the bird flew to and the
scent cone would most likely be reestablished in that time.
Arch
David Ebinger
>
> > If you follow the bird you will be putting your dog on a bird with no
> > scent cone developed.
> >
> If this were true, the dogs couldn't point them and most of the time
> dogs have no problem pointing the same grouse after it has flushed once.
> Going after a second flush on the same bird is no different than going
> after a few singles after a covey flush on quail. Most of the time it
> takes a couple of minutes to get up to where the bird flew to and the
> scent cone would most likely be reestablished in that time.
>
> Arch
>
"If this were true, the dogs couldn't point them" - I may have read
between the lines on the original post, but it sure sounded like the dog
"couldn't point them" on the first try.
Now you suggest taking her in on a bird that just flew, landed, and
almost surely has a smaller scent cone then on the first try. Does the
dog really have a chance? I can't help but believe that you are setting
the dog up for failure. An experienced dog MAY do perfectly fine in
this situation but the original poster indicated that the dog was not an
experienced grouse dog. Don't follow the bird with an inexperienced
dog.
And for the quail comparison: both birds will have small scent cones
after flight, so they may be equally difficult to locate, but which bird
is less likely to tolerate crowding? I have been led to believe that
the quail is more likely to hold (or am I just spending too much time
with grouse snobs?)
David Ebinger
Deirdre Wiseman
Allow me to clarify. In my typical one track mind way of thinking, I
only addressed one thing, that of the scent cone itself. Yes, I have
experienced dogs as do most of the people I hunt with. Between my main
hunting partner and myself, we have 5 dogs with over 5 season's worth of
experience. These dogs have no problem with pointing a grouse
previously flushed. I have found that second flush grouse hold somewhat
better, although not always and sometimes not at all.
You are right however in that I did not address the problem the first
poster was having. If his dog is bumping birds to the extent he said,
it may be time to take the dog out of the woods and back to the training
field. And possibly to a pro trainer. Then again, some dogs never
learn how to handle grouse, just the same as some never learn to handle
pheasants. I've had two setters out of decent grouse lines that just
never worked out.
As far as which bird is more likely to hold, I think you need to spend a
lot of time studying this. A lot of time. Tell your boss you wont be
in to work until March 1, 2000. During that time you will be too busy
hunting grouse in Michigan until Jan 1, and bouncing between Ohio for
grouse and south Texas for quail until the end of February. I think
until you do this, there is just no real way to know. It'll be tough,
but I am sure you are up to it.
Arch
Arch
David Ebinger
> As far as which bird is more likely to hold, I think you need to spend a
> lot of time studying this. A lot of time. Tell your boss you wont be
> in to work until March 1, 2000. During that time you will be too busy
> hunting grouse in Michigan until Jan 1, and bouncing between Ohio for
> grouse and south Texas for quail until the end of February. I think
> until you do this, there is just no real way to know. It'll be tough,
> but I am sure you are up to it.
>
I thought that was what we were paying you for. And now you are going
to keep the answer a secret? Is there no loyalty? So what do I tell my
dog? He's sitting right here, still trying to get over that "Getting
Dog Fixed" thread, and now I have to tell him that I don't have an
answer for whether quail will suffer more crowding than grouse.
Speaking of crowding, where in Ohio are you?
David Ebinger
Deirdre Wiseman
>
> I thought that was what we were paying you for.
Hmmn. Haven't noticed the check in the mailbox. Anyway, my research is
still incomplete after seven years of quail hunting and 23 years of
grouse hunting. Your help is needed as a scientific control. My
research could be biased as it only reflects my hunting and the hunting
of friends of mine.
>
> Speaking of crowding, where in Ohio are you?
I live in Dayton. whoopie.
Arch
mudbat
http://www.ats-sonic.com/ftsa.htm
One of the most interesting opinions there is that pheasant hunting is not
helpful in getting a pointing dog to properly point grouse. I'm sure many
dogs handle both birds fairly well, but if you follow this author's
argument, it becomes obvious that he is talking about a level of grouse
hunting and pointing that darn few pointing dogs really attain. The other
comment (from a different source I believe) that it takes 500 contacts with
grouse to make a grouse dog seems plausible too. Some dogs never really get
the them figured out and bump many more birds than a really well tuned dog
would.
I've been hunting Ruffed Grouse, almost exclusively, for the last four
years. In my experience shooting 25 - 30% on them is not doing to badly at
all. I don't shoot them much better than that day in and day out. They are
arguably the most difficult game bird to hit due to their speed, the heavy
cover, impossible shooting lanes, and the fact that you have to walk your
butt off to get them. Some days - the birds fly into clear shooting lanes
and provide simple shots - other days they always seem to find a tree or
dart behind a balsam just before your onto them. I'm sure you know what I'm
talking about if you hunt grouse much.
The key I think is mainly a need for more shooting practice. Few of us
really shoot enough. If you know you have trouble with a particular type of
shot - perhaps clay targets can help. Find a Skeet of Sporting Clays range
and pick the stations that simulate the shots you want to work on. Make
sure you start with the gun down, not mounted, just like you would when
hunting. This will allow you to practice mounting the gun - where many
shooting errors begin. When you get comfortable with the shot and can
regularly break the targets - tell the puller to throw the target anytime up
to 10 seconds after you call for it. This will change things dramatically
and may help you get comfortable when the target is less predictable.
You'll probably shoot behind or above these for awhile as you struggle to
pick up the target and get on it. Work on gun mounting - getting and
keeping your face onto the stock properly, the rest should come. The most
common reason I have for missing a bird that I believe was easily shootable
is forgetting to get my face down on the stock - causing me to shoot over
the top almost every time. Shooting behind the bird is a too frequent
problem too but then so is shooting trees (the first problem I can work on -
the second I can't). There are lots of little things most of us do that
limit our shooting success. Finding and correcting them is probably a
worthwhile exercise. But I'm hardly an expert on shooting - perhaps some one
who is can help too.
Chris
Don Eldridge
DEC/JAN issue of Gun Dog.
mudbat <mud...@ATT.NET> wrote in message
news:80t8t7$92n$1...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net...
Karl Saarni
Is your post copywrited? Can I copy it? Can I use it, if I give you
credit? Really, you have captured the essence of wing shooting. I am
forwarding your post to my hunting buddies because I think you are
absolutely correct in you suggestions and experience. Thank you!
Karl