Goy, goyer, goyest
Garry
answer permits.
First, we have two word here: the Hebrew word "goy", meaning a
nation, and the Yiddish word "goy" meaning a non-Jew. The etymology
has already been accurately described, but the words aren't
interchangeable. "Goyim" in Yiddish does not mean "nations", although
it does in Hebrew. I don't know the modern Hebrew term for a
non-Jew, but I'm pretty sure it's not "goy".
[Interestingly, because it's originally a Hebrew-derived word, the
Yiddish word goy uses the Hebrew plural form. "Goys" is possible but
a little slangier. compare "they're a bunch of regular goys over
there at the reform temple" to "a shande for the goyim". ]
We can all agree the Hebrew word has no negative connotation. Does
the Yiddish word? weellllll.... On the one hand, there is no other
commonly used Yiddish word for non-Jew. On the other hand, there is
at least a slight negative flavor, which may reflect nothing more than
the fact that most native Yiddish speakers had ethnic or historical
reasons to feel afraid of or superior to non-Jews. My sense is rather
than saying "He's a goy, but he's also a mensch," one would say "he's
not a Jew, but he's still a mensch." The words "sheigitz" and
"shiksa", which are again the only ways of specifying a male and a
female non-Jew, have even more of this flavor.
A similar question could be asked about the Yiddish noun "shwartze",
which as an adjective means "black" in both Yiddish and German. I
think it was primarily descriptive, not pejorative; it certainly had
_none_ of the flavor that American slang terms for Negro did.
Nonetheless, there was some discomfort in its use around those it
referred to.
In insular communities, there is some negative aspect to _anything_
outside the community. I am told, for example, that there is really
no polite Japanese word for "foreigner". I think that may be what's
going on here.
One more modern day parallel: Among Gay people, the most common
adjectives referring to someone's sexual orientation are "gay" and
"straight". But if a specific heterosexual person is being
respectfully discussed, the speaker will usually substitute "not Gay"
for "straight".
____________
A Hagodoh that feeds the hungry! A carefully translated and revised
version of the Haggadah, handsomely printed. The entire $6 purchase
price goes to charity. http://haggadah.freeservers.com/
The Old Bear
>Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 23:44:26 EST
>From: Garry <gar...@usa.net>
>Newsgroups: rec.humor.jewish
>Subject: re: Goy, goyer, goyest
>Lines: 51
>
>I think this question is a little more complicated then a yes or no
>answer permits.
>
>First, we have two word here: the Hebrew word "goy", meaning a
>nation, and the Yiddish word "goy" meaning a non-Jew. . . .
[thoughtful discussion elided]
>. . . In insular communities, there is some negative aspect to
>_anything_ outside the community. I am told, for example, that
>there is really no polite Japanese word for "foreigner". I think
>that may be what's going on here.
Similarly, the Hawaiian "haole" meaning a foreigner, or more
specifically a white foreigner. It has come to be used in normal
English conversation in Hawaii to refer to someone not from Hawaii
-- but for some people it still retains a slight edge.
Reflect for a moment on the word "Jew" and how it can be postive,
neutral or negative depending upon how it is used, where it is
used, and by whom it is used.
Garry's observes that the Yiddish word 'goy' forms its plural
as 'goyim' because of it Hebrew etymology. That reminds me of
an unattributed quote by a Jewish humorist of the 1930s -- the
golden era of the neighborhood movie theatre:
"Every Sunday my grandmother goes to the movies.
Although she doesn't understand English very well,
she loves the Westerns and always cheers for the
sheriffim."
Cheers,
The Old Bear
------------------------------------------------------------------
... and with a resounding splash, Noah set forth a dov ...
------------------------------------------------------------------
Garry
wrote:
>> >From what I have heard, it's more than just flavor. "Sheigitz" and
>> "shiksa" are down-right derogatory and insulting, though that isn't
>> that well known by non-Jews. I'm not Jewish, but in the process of
>> conversion, and joked to my Jewish fiance about me being a shiksa,
and
>> he quickly told me how derogatory it was and to not refer to myself
>> that way.
>>
Again, it's a question of language and its interrelationship to
attitudes. The words themselves are the standard (only?) Yiddish
words for referring to a male and female non-Jew (if gender needs to
be specified). The attitude of Yiddish speakers towards non-Jews gave
these words an edge, just as they gave goy an edge to a lesser extent.
If you think about it, most often the need to specify the gender of a
non-Jew occured in situations where there was a potential of romantic
attachment, which was anathema to the Jewish community of that time.
So these two word became much more emotionally charged than goy, which
was commonly used in less emotionally charged circumstances.
I disagree with your fiance, by the way; the word is not _that_
derogatory that it can't be used in jokes between people who know one
another. I've heard husband and wife in situations analagous to yours
use it that way, and it's not uncommon in joking self-reference. But
it would be extremely inappropriate to use about someone else who
wasn't a close friend.
John L. Pearlman
: On Mon, 21 Feb 2000 13:00:37 EST, Media Goddess <rdu...@indiana.edu>
: wrote:
:
: >> >From what I have heard, it's more than just flavor. "Sheigitz" and
: >> "shiksa" are down-right derogatory and insulting, though that isn't
: >> that well known by non-Jews. I'm not Jewish, but in the process of
: >> conversion, and joked to my Jewish fiance about me being a shiksa,
: and
: >> he quickly told me how derogatory it was and to not refer to myself
: >> that way.
: >>
:
: Again, it's a question of language and its interrelationship to
: attitudes. The words themselves are the standard (only?) Yiddish
: words for referring to a male and female non-Jew (if gender needs to
: be specified). The attitude of Yiddish speakers towards non-Jews gave
: these words an edge, just as they gave goy an edge to a lesser extent.
(snip)
Although I'm not any authority on Yiddish terms, my understanding of
the origin of the terms "sheigitz" and "shiksa" is that it comes from
a reference to some kind of vermin (similar to the term "papparazzi").
Cheers,
John
--
John L. Pearlman <jl...@tiac.net> or <j.pea...@ieee.org>
If one man calls you a donkey, pay him no heed. If two men call you
a donkey, get yourself a saddle. (ancient Rabbinic saying)
mei...@qqqerols.com
<gar...@usa.net> posted:
>On Mon, 21 Feb 2000 13:00:37 EST, Media Goddess <rdu...@indiana.edu>
>wrote:
>
>>> >From what I have heard, it's more than just flavor. "Sheigitz" and
>>> "shiksa" are down-right derogatory and insulting, though that isn't
>>> that well known by non-Jews.
I don't think so. It certainly wasn't that way in my family. As Gary
says below, it almost always came up in social situations that a boy
shouldn't date or even moreso marry a shiksie or a girl a sheigitz.
This didn't mean there was anything wrong with them. It applied
equally to all 'gentiles', including Caroline Kennedy for example, who
I'm sure is a wonderful person, or John Kennedy Jr. who was clearly a
wonderful person.
It was plain that these people had good qualities or there wouldn't
have been reason to date them. OK, I can imagine one reason to date
someone without good qualities, sex, but that wasn't imagined in my
family, certainly not by my mother, and no one we knew was so stupid
as to *marry* for sex if the other party weren't abundant with good
qualities. The problem is not that she or he is lower quality than
average, it that they are not Jewish and you can't have a Jewish home
without a Jewish wife, and in practice you can't have one without a
Jewish husband either. If that bothers you, that is one thing but it
is not because of the meaning of the word.
I don't think anything productive is accomplished by circulating a
story or by trying to prove that they words are insulting, because
they certainly are not always.
>>> I'm not Jewish, but in the process of
>>> conversion, and joked to my Jewish fiance about me being a shiksa,
>and
>>> he quickly told me how derogatory it was and to not refer to myself
>>> that way.
>>>
>
>Again, it's a question of language and its interrelationship to
>attitudes. The words themselves are the standard (only?) Yiddish
>words for referring to a male and female non-Jew (if gender needs to
>be specified). The attitude of Yiddish speakers towards non-Jews gave
>these words an edge, just as they gave goy an edge to a lesser extent.
>If you think about it, most often the need to specify the gender of a
>non-Jew occured in situations where there was a potential of romantic
>attachment, which was anathema to the Jewish community of that time.
>So these two word became much more emotionally charged than goy, which
>was commonly used in less emotionally charged circumstances.
>
>I disagree with your fiance, by the way; the word is not _that_
>derogatory that it can't be used in jokes between people who know one
>another. I've heard husband and wife in situations analagous to yours
>use it that way, and it's not uncommon in joking self-reference. But
>it would be extremely inappropriate to use about someone else who
>wasn't a close friend.
Garry is right about everything in this answer except the last
sentence. See my other post for more details, but in Yiddish there
are only two kinds of people in the world, Jews and goyim and goyim
includes every wonderful goy that anyone could hope to emulate. Who
are your heroes? John Kennedy, Winston Churchhill, Nelson Mandela,
Martin Luther King, Hillary Clinton, Florence Nightengale, John
McCain, Al Gore, Barbara Jordan, Bill Gates, any gentile you can name,
all goyim and nothing wrong with that. I would be very pleased if I
had their positive characteristics, even a few of them.
>____________
mei...@QQQerols.com
e-mail by removing QQQ
Garry
>In rec.humor.jewish on Mon, 21 Feb 2000 18:01:57 EST Garry
><gar...@usa.net> posted:
>
>>I disagree with your fiance, by the way; the word is not _that_
>>derogatory that it can't be used in jokes between people who know
one
>>another. I've heard husband and wife in situations analagous to
yours
>>use it that way, and it's not uncommon in joking self-reference.
But
>>it would be extremely inappropriate to use about someone else who
>>wasn't a close friend.
>
>Garry is right about everything in this answer except the last
>sentence. See my other post for more details, but in Yiddish there
>are only two kinds of people in the world, Jews and goyim and goyim
>includes every wonderful goy that anyone could hope to emulate. Who
>are your heroes? John Kennedy, Winston Churchhill, Nelson Mandela,
>Martin Luther King, Hillary Clinton, Florence Nightengale, John
>McCain, Al Gore, Barbara Jordan, Bill Gates, any gentile you can
name,
>all goyim and nothing wrong with that. I would be very pleased if I
>had their positive characteristics, even a few of them.
I think we may be confusing formal meaning and usage. The words are
perfectly good ones, but in my experience the attitude toward how the
words are used includes a negative connotation. I cannot imagine
someone describing Florence Nightingale as a shiksa; it may be
literally correct, but it would be a highly unusual usage. In
yinglish, talking to a non-Jewish neighbor about differences, you
might say "you're not jewish", or "you're not a yid", or jokingly even
"look, you're a goy"; but it would have to be a very close neighbor
indeed for you to say "you're a sheigitz/shiksa".
Meir may have had a different experience; if so, it just shows how
diverse the Jewish community is.
Fred Rosenblatt
mei...@QQQerols.com wrote:
> In rec.humor.jewish on Mon, 21 Feb 2000 18:01:57 EST Garry
> <gar...@usa.net> posted:
>
> >On Mon, 21 Feb 2000 13:00:37 EST, Media Goddess <rdu...@indiana.edu>
> >wrote:
> >
> >>> >From what I have heard, it's more than just flavor. "Sheigitz" and
> >>> "shiksa" are down-right derogatory and insulting, though that isn't
> >>> that well known by non-Jews.
>
> I don't think so. It certainly wasn't that way in my family. As Gary
> says below, it almost always came up in social situations that a boy
> shouldn't date or even moreso marry a shiksie or a girl a sheigitz.
> This didn't mean there was anything wrong with them. It applied
> equally to all 'gentiles', including Caroline Kennedy for example, who
> I'm sure is a wonderful person, or John Kennedy Jr. who was clearly a
> wonderful person.
>
> It was plain that these people had good qualities or there wouldn't
> have been reason to date them. OK, I can imagine one reason to date
> someone without good qualities, sex, but that wasn't imagined in my
> family, certainly not by my mother, and no one we knew was so stupid
> as to *marry* for sex if the other party weren't abundant with good
> qualities. The problem is not that she or he is lower quality than
> average, it that they are not Jewish and you can't have a Jewish home
> without a Jewish wife, and in practice you can't have one without a
> Jewish husband either. If that bothers you, that is one thing but it
> is not because of the meaning of the word.
There is a passage in the Torah dealing with the exhortation to not marry
the nonJews of Canaan. It says,"shaketz tishkatzeneh", "relate to them as
you would to a shaketz". I don't think that this was ever meant to imply
that nonJews are equivalent to vermin, but rather makes a comparison with
the ritual purity requirement to not touch such creatures, and to purify
oneself if one has. In other words, avoid them as one would avoid
touching a sheretz. As I've mentioned before, one of the unique aspects of
Jewish humor stems from the creative way that Yiddish incorporates the Bible
into everyday speech. That doesn't mean that nonJews are referred to as
vermin any more than the the English phrase, "Avoid him like the plague"
implies any actual ability to transmit disease.
David M. Childers
terminology.
I cannot site the specific reference, since it has been about 50 years
since I have had discussions of this sort, but as I recall, Rabbi
Krohn in Phoenix told me that the terms "goy", plural "goyim", were
derivations of "golem" , the mud "robot" of literature, and its
original interpetation was "a shapeless, formless, mass", also a
subclass derivative of "goy" was "guys"
See you later guys <grin>
David
Henk van Berg
> story or by trying to prove that they words are insulting, because
> they certainly are not always.
>
> >>> I'm not Jewish, but in the process of
> >>> conversion, and joked to my Jewish fiance about me being a shiksa,
> >and
> >>> he quickly told me how derogatory it was and to not refer to myself
> >>> that way.
> >>>
> >
> >Again, it's a question of language and its interrelationship to
> >attitudes. The words themselves are the standard (only?) Yiddish
> >words for referring to a male and female non-Jew (if gender needs to
> >be specified). The attitude of Yiddish speakers towards non-Jews gave
> >these words an edge, just as they gave goy an edge to a lesser extent.
> >If you think about it, most often the need to specify the gender of a
> >non-Jew occured in situations where there was a potential of romantic
> >attachment, which was anathema to the Jewish community of that time.
> >So these two word became much more emotionally charged than goy, which
> >was commonly used in less emotionally charged circumstances.
> >
> >derogatory that it can't be used in jokes between people who know one
> >another. I've heard husband and wife in situations analagous to yours
> >use it that way, and it's not uncommon in joking self-reference. But
> >it would be extremely inappropriate to use about someone else who
> >wasn't a close friend.
>
> Garry is right about everything in this answer except the last
> sentence. See my other post for more details, but in Yiddish there
> are only two kinds of people in the world, Jews and goyim and goyim
> includes every wonderful goy that anyone could hope to emulate. Who
> are your heroes? John Kennedy, Winston Churchhill, Nelson Mandela,
> Martin Luther King, Hillary Clinton, Florence Nightengale, John
> McCain, Al Gore, Barbara Jordan, Bill Gates, any gentile you can name,
> all goyim and nothing wrong with that. I would be very pleased if I
> had their positive characteristics, even a few of them.
And when I was a child some 50 years ago, growing up in a little village in
southern Westpalia, I remember quite well that me and other little boys spoke
of little girls in general as beeing "Schickse" - that meant something silly,
stupid, not understood by us, just females. Nobody told us that this word is
Yiddish... I am not jewish... draw your conclusions.
F.M.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Nat
differently . The Amalek Hitler recognised this when tried to purge Jewish
culture from German people.
"Henk van Berg" <berg...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8bblsu$3h4$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
GG
Lets combine this thread with the one about "Before you vote for
Gore...". We can call it "Gore, gorer, gorest!"
Nat
Oh you said "The presidental candidate is Al Gore ! "
I heard "The presidental candidates are all goy!"
"GG" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:38D9A0BF...@nospam.com...
John Vinson
wrote:
>Oh you said "The presidental candidate is Al Gore ! "
>I heard "The presidental candidates are all goy!"
Nu? so what else is new?
John the Wysard jvinson *at* WysardOfInfo *dot* com
Fred Rosenblatt
> Folks,
>
> Lets combine this thread with the one about "Before you vote for
> Gore...". We can call it "Gore, gorer, gorest!"
Gore nisht!
Bob Halpern
Is that was a sadistic bull does to a masochistic toreador?