Blazon help
Doug McDonald
I posted a .gif of the thing on the rootsweb.com heraldey
message board, under the title "iffy blazon help", so
you can see it there. But I will describe a simplified
version in words here.
First comes the easy part:
barry of eight or and argent, a pile embattled azure
This should be legal since a barry has the metals
"side by side" rather than "on".
I believe that this also has the argent on top, is this
not correct?
There are a total of four charges on this: upon the
pile itself there are two, on top a lymphad argent flags
gules, and on bottom a cross botonny or.
Outside the pile, on the barry, are two roses gules, leaves and
seeds proper (i.e. vert and or). These are supposed to
be located near the bottom of shield i.e. "in base".
What is the correct blazon for this?
Doug McDonald
Michael F. McCartney
>I'm working on a shield blazon. I'd like help in getting it right.
>
>I posted a .gif of the thing on the rootsweb.com heraldey
>message board, under the title "iffy blazon help", so
>you can see it there. But I will describe a simplified
>version in words here.
Not sure where the "rootsweb.com" heraldry message board is, so I'm blazoning
volant blind:
>First comes the easy part:
>
>barry of eight or and argent, a pile embattled azure
>
>
>This should be legal since a barry has the metals
>"side by side" rather than "on".
>
>I believe that this also has the argent on top, is this
>not correct?
Yes, this is not correct. :) When the field is parted, the first-named
tincture is the one in chief or to dexter, as the case may be. If you want the
white on top, say "Barry Argent and Or..." If you want the yellow/gold on top,
day "Barry Or and Argent..."
>
>There are a total of four charges on this: upon the
>pile itself there are two, on top a lymphad argent flags
>gules, and on bottom a cross botonny or.
>
>Outside the pile, on the barry, are two roses gules, leaves and
>seeds proper (i.e. vert and or). These are supposed to
>be located near the bottom of shield i.e. "in base".
Since you say "leaves" I am assuming you mean a red rose on a green stem with
leaves? If you mean just the flower with the little pointy green thingies
between the five petals, the term would be "barbed" -- [noted as an alternative
in square brackets below]
>What is the correct blazon for this?
How about: Barry of eight Or and Argent on a pile embattled Azure between two
roses slipped and leaved Proper [alternately, if just the flowers, " between in
base two roses Gules barbed and seeded Proper"] a lymphad Argent flagged Gules
and a cross botonny Or in pale.
It seems a bit busy, but that's a matter of taste; it violates no technical
rule that I can see.
On the other hand (if this matters to you -- no reason it has to) -- if the
lymphad is intended to suggest "McDonald" I would think black on gold, or maybe
black on while, would be a more clear allusion. A "metal" lymphad on Azure is
more likely to remind the viewer of Orkney or Caithness, which generally had
gold ships on blue with minor variations. Or even as reversed colors of Clan
Chattan (Or a lymphad Azure) which in some of the constituent clans e,g,
Macpherson were usually per fess Or and Azure a lymphad cunterchanged or some
such. But as noted, this concern presuppose that you are intending an allusion
to the Scottish name MacDonald, which is optional outside of Scotland.
If you were looking for the allusion, then perhaps Barry Azure and (whatever --
maybe Barry wavy Azure and Argent, your family having crossed the sea? or Azure
and Sable? --, on a pile embattled between in base two roses Or barbed and
seeded Proper a lymphad Sable flagged Gules and a cross botonnee Gules
Or maybe not ... :)
Mike~~
Michael Fannin McCartney
Fremont, California
(Delete "delete" from e-mail address)
Doug McDonald
>
>
> Since you say "leaves" I am assuming you mean a red rose on a green stem with
> leaves? If you mean just the flower with the little pointy green thingies
> between the five petals, the term would be "barbed" -- [noted as an alternative
> in square brackets below]
>
> >What is the correct blazon for this?
>
> How about: Barry of eight Or and Argent on a pile embattled Azure between two
> and a cross botonny Or in pale.
>
> It seems a bit busy, but that's a matter of taste; it violates no technical
> rule that I can see.
>
> On the other hand (if this matters to you -- no reason it has to) -- if the
> lymphad is intended to suggest "McDonald" I would think black on gold, or maybe
> black on while, would be a more clear allusion.
McDonald is black on argent, oars in action. I just left out the
"oars in action" because it is unimportant in the discussions.
> A "metal" lymphad on Azure is
> more likely to remind the viewer of Orkney or Caithness, which generally had
> gold ships on blue with minor variations. Or even as reversed colors of Clan
> Chattan (Or a lymphad Azure) which in some of the constituent clans e,g,
> Macpherson were usually per fess Or and Azure a lymphad cunterchanged or some
> such. But as noted, this concern presuppose that you are intending an allusion
> to the Scottish name MacDonald, which is optional outside of Scotland.
>
Ah yes ... I most certainly am aware of just that, but
I have yet to come up with a design with a lymphad sable
that I actually like. I have numerous ones but they
just don't appeal to my eyes. I am a descendent of "all of the above",
but in the design have just included the nearest generation in the
"allusions".
> If you were looking for the allusion, then perhaps Barry Azure and (whatever --
> maybe Barry wavy Azure and Argent, your family having crossed the sea? or Azure
> and Sable? --, on a pile embattled between in base two roses Or barbed and
> seeded Proper a lymphad Sable flagged Gules and a cross botonnee Gules
>
But then the roses are the wrong color! And that's the rub.
True, the rose I refer to is one in a crest ... so I could
put it in the crest instead of the stag gules (which you
didn't hear about, but was on the picture.) A stag or stags
does not work very well on that background, no matter what color.
I could replace the roses with water bougets, which are even better
symbols of what I want, but they are ... ugly ... and need
lots of explanation and besides they are usually sable on or
for that family. Or, since I took the roses from a crest,
maybe the color doesn't matter and I could use or, barbed and seeded
gules. What about that? That's legal on a dark color is it not,
as long as the main part if a metal? Or barbed and seeded gules
looks real nice.
You see, what I really need for a background is something
that is all metal (except for the cross, whose
color does not matter). Then a black ship and red roses
or black water bougets will be OK.
Hence, the simple blazon that works would be
"per saltire argent and or in fess two roses gules barbed and seeded
proper in chief a lymphad sable and in base a cross botonny azure"
and heraldically that is of course a perfectly fine design and the
first one I tried. But though legal, the distinction between
or and argent is simply too low. Perhaps instead of
"per saltire argent and or" it could be "per saltire argent
and erminois" which would be fine for the rather simple
water bouget ... but roses are rather busy themselves and
I think this overly busy. And ermine behind the ship
would be a major shipwreck ... of course my first
immigrant ancestor did get shipwrecked on Bermuda
in 1609.
Do you have any suggestions? One of the reasons I liked
the original plan is that it basically forces the
ship to be larger than the other charges, which is nice.
Doug McDonald
Michael F. McCartney
>> On the other hand (if this matters to you -- no reason it has to) -- if the
>> lymphad is intended to suggest "McDonald" I would think black on gold, or
>maybe
>> black on while, would be a more clear allusion.
But as noted, this concern presuppose that you are intending an
>allusion
>> to the Scottish name MacDonald, which is optional outside of Scotland.
>Ah yes ... I most certainly am aware of just that, but
>I have yet to come up with a design with a lymphad sable
>that I actually like. I have numerous ones but they
>just don't appeal to my eyes. I am a descendent of "all of the above",
>but in the design have just included the nearest generation in the
>"allusions".
>> If you were looking for the allusion, then perhaps Barry Azure and
>(whatever --
>> maybe Barry wavy Azure and Argent, your family having crossed the sea? or
>Azure
>> and Sable? --, on a pile embattled between in base two roses Or barbed and
>> seeded Proper a lymphad Sable flagged Gules and a cross botonnee Gules
>But then the roses are the wrong color! And that's the rub.
>True, the rose I refer to is one in a crest ... so I could
>put it in the crest instead of the stag gules (which you
>didn't hear about, but was on the picture.) A stag or stags
>does not work very well on that background, no matter what color.
>I could replace the roses with water bougets, which are even better
>symbols of what I want, but they are ... ugly ... and need
>lots of explanation and besides they are usually sable on or
>for that family. Or, since I took the roses from a crest,...
It would be helpful if you mentioned which other name(s) you might want to
allude to -- otherwise the discussion above is confusing (to me at least;
admittedly one distraction for me is the cryptic reference to red crest roses &
stags, which could suggest my own name in Scotland or Ulster... :)
>maybe the color [of the roses] doesn't matter and I could use or, barbed and
seeded
>gules. What about that? That's legal on a dark color is it not,
>as long as the main part if a metal? Or barbed and seeded gules
>looks real nice.
...but the green barbs will tend to wash out visually & it will look more like
a primrose or cinquefoil Or. If you really want red roses, consider placing
them on a roundel (disk) Or or Argent - tho' that does contribute to the
business of the design. (Are we having fun yet? :) -- which brings me back to
a metal field, as you note below.
>You see, what I really need for a background is something
>that is all metal (except for the cross, whose
>color does not matter). Then a black ship and red roses
>or black water bougets will be OK.
>
>Hence, the simple blazon that works would be
>"per saltire argent and or in fess two roses gules barbed and seeded
>proper in chief a lymphad sable and in base a cross botonny azure"
>and heraldically that is of course a perfectly fine design and the
>first one I tried. But though legal, the distinction between
>or and argent is simply too low. Perhaps instead of
>"per saltire argent and or" it could be "per saltire argent
>and erminois" which would be fine for the rather simple
>water bouget ... but roses are rather busy themselves and
>I think this overly busy. And ermine behind the ship
>would be a major shipwreck ... of course my first
>immigrant ancestor did get shipwrecked on Bermuda
>in 1609.
At some point, so will this design process, though probably not on a tropical
isle...but then if you wanted to be McDonald of the Isles, the Carribean isles
are a nicer climate than the Hebrides! (sound of ducking fast)
>Do you have any suggestions?
Well...in no particular order: if you want to use per saltire, you could
fimbrate, or toss in a saltire of a dark color. Simplest would be Sable since
that would avoid adding yet another color. To really simplify, how about "Or
(or Argent, pick one) a fillet cross saltirewise (i.e. a skinny saltire)
between in chief a lymphad Sable glagged Gules, in the flanks two water bougets
Sable [or two roses Gules barbed & seeded Proper] and in base a cross botonnee
Gules"?
? One of the reasons I liked
>the original plan is that it basically forces the
>ship to be larger than the other charges, which is nice.
Hmmm..."Or [or Argent, pick one] on a pile in point [i.e. going all the way
down] Sable voided of the field between two [roses Gules or water bougets
Sable. either works] a lymphad Sable flagged Gules above a crosslet botonee
Gules." You could embattle or otherwise bedevil the edge of the pile if
desired, but it will add a busy touch and make it more difficult to paint,
embroider/sew (banner) or engrave (seal/signet).
What was your URL again?
Mike~~
"new arms for old" (that's for JH's benefit :)
Doug McDonald
>
>
>
> Hmmm..."Or [or Argent, pick one] on a pile in point [i.e. going all the way
> down] Sable voided of the field
What does "voided of the field" mean? I know what
of the field means, but what is "voided"?.
And why "in point"? I had thought that that would be bad
because it would leave little room on the field itself.
Doug
Michael F. McCartney
YT:
>> Hmmm..."Or [or Argent, pick one] on a pile in point [i.e. going all the way
>> down] Sable voided of the field
DMcD:
>What does "voided of the field" mean? I know what
>of the field means, but what is "voided"?.
Sorry --"voided" means that the innards of an ordinary or simple charge are cut
away, leaving the edge or outline of the charge in the specified color, with
some other color (usually the field. but sometimes something different) showing
through. In this case, the visual effect would be a black "V" with the two
roses (or water bougets) outside the V & the lymphad & small cross inside the
V.
>And why "in point"? I had thought that that would be bad
>because it would leave little room on the field itself.
Play with the design a bit & adjust as needed. I wanted to leave sufficient
room for the cross below the lymphad (which you seemed to want fairly large); &
unless your shield is particularly narrow & pointy I'd think there would be
room for the roses on either side of the lower part of the V; but play with it.
Steven B. Madewell
I've fiddle around with the general concept of the design here and
come up with a few version (some better than others). Take a look
see.... You'll have to scroll up/down and sideways to view them all:
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/macd_test.gif
Peace,
Steven
Anton Sherwood
> I've fiddle around with the general concept of the design here and
> http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/macd_test.gif
I'll say. ;)
A wavy ordinary on a wavy field is imho too much detail; something is
very likely to be lost in copying. Can't say I like the checky-wavy
either, but that's more a question of personal taste.
--
Anton Sherwood, http://www.ogre.nu/