Bogus David
Dr
This bogus knight just made his bigest mistake!
He sell orders, act like he is authority without sufficient education
etc..
I have letters and prove on everyting and on this post you can read
about his credibility>
http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=sv&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=rec.heraldry&selm=cf4ee05e.0408060001.30ce750d%40posting.google.com
\For some many months now we have suffered through the incoherent
ramblings of one Oliver Bogdanovski, who claims to be a divorced
Macedonian medical doctor working in Sweden. This Bogdanovski likes to
intrude on most every heraldic thread on this forum regardless
knowledge or lack there of on the topic.\
Yes I am proudly and happy divorced and I am not Just Macedonian DR
*even I am proud of beeing Macedonian but I am a doctor in all of EU.
I am orthodox and my divorce does not mean nothing hahha.
\When challenged over his obvious lack of heraldic knowledge he
attacks
with wild accusations about one's affiliations. It seems that this
pathetic little man craves attention, be it positive or negative.
Maybe he had a lonely childhood, or was made fun of on the play
ground, but this is no justification for his unstable behaviour on
this forum.\
Whch lak of knowlege do you reffer to. I think your problem is me
knowing to much hahah
I hade very happy childhood and That is way i do not pretend to change
who i am!
But you do. Most probably you are from rednekcs family and that is way
you accept every order bogus or not.
\Oliver's vendetta against me stems from his strong, almost obcessive
desire to be accepted into a valid Order of most any type. Long ago,
the oft rejected Oliver contacted me about becomming a member of Saint
Michael of the Wing (SMA). As he was not Catholic, I saw this as a
pointless effort. He then kept e-mailing a fellow knight of the SMA,
at some point my friend was willing to sponsor him as an Honorary
Brother simply to stop his constant barage of e-mails. I was at this
point, more familiar with Oliver's unstable behaviour, I put an end to
this. If Oliver is ever accepted into a real Order, I suspect that he
would soon be expelled when his fellow knights learn of his true
nature.\
I never contacted you to be a member in SMA but you send me plage of
honour offering me for 100 euro to be a knight. I never send the
documents to apply for SMA so I could not be rejected. Show me my
application that I send to SMA_
Moreover you try to sell me another chatolic order for 300 euro.
\On my old chat group Chivalric and Heraldic Research, Oliver had
become the dominant poster on the forum. He annoyed everyone with his
high volume posts that made little sense. Even when the question was
understood, he was likely to reject the real answer. In time my
patience ran out and I deleted him and banned him from the forum.
When I learned that Oliver had been expelled from the Serbian
Genealogical Society and the Serbian Heraldic Society "White Eagle"
for making rude comments about the Serbian Royal Family, I decided not
to have any further contact with him.\
Nonsense, I resing from SGS becouse it is under an prince of yu which
is not my prince and never will be.
I was never member of White Eagle. Way should I, I am not serbian__
I will post all of this do not worry.
\His hatred of the IAAH stems from the association's rejection of his
use of the historic princely arms of a well known Yugoslav family.
With three other Yugoslavs in the membership, his usurption did not go
unchecked. When he was rejected by the IAAH, he resigned.\
I have nothing to hate about one very nice idea like AAH was in
begining. Untill bogus knights take over like you and melvyn
Which Yugoslav family would that be_! You do refer to my fathers
mother I presume!
You becoming senile there is no Yugoslavia as it was since 1990.
\Oliver has become a cyberstalking troll spreading his lies where ever
he is allowed to do so. I propose to those on this forum that we
boycot his inane questions in the future and leave him to himself.\
I am shore that here are many people who can use there head and do not
need to listen to one bogus @man@ and @knight@
Troll with prove on your illegal and bogus activites.
I heard that you will be banished from AAH presidecy.
Oliver is reserved for friends you are most surtanly not.
With kindest regards to all,
Peter Kurrild-Klitgaard
unbecoming discussion, where allegations and innuendo (almost all
unrelated to heraldry) fly through the air, as if it was a quarrel
between former lovers.
However, the mention of nobiliary coronets used by Messers. Pritchard
and Lindgren did puzzle me. Looking at the www I found these two
examples in coats-of-arms used by Carl Edwin Magnus Lindgren (one
silver, one gold):
http://users.panola.com/lindgren/arms.html
http://freepages.misc.rootsweb.com/~amateurheralds/nrc-lindgren.html
Off my head I cannot remember all the European coronets, so I looked
into two of Volborth's books and I could not quite figure out what
these coronets were supposed to signify; they look some what like some
marquis coronets and some what like some vicomte coronets. Is it some
kind of rank? And if so, what is it supposedly based in?
Sincerely,
Peter Kurrild-Klitgaard
m99...@hotmail.com (Dr) wrote in message news:<cf4ee05e.04080...@posting.google.com>...
George Lucki
Certainlly an uncommon coroney on the helm. Pinches (European Heraldry and
Nobility) illustrates this as the coronet for a Portuguese Cavaleiro
(knight). It is quite an ornate coronet and different from any of the
knights' coronets used elsewhere in Europe.
Kind regards, George Lucki
"Peter Kurrild-Klitgaard" <kur...@politik.dk> wrote in message
news:763bd544.0408...@posting.google.com...
Rt Hon Viscount Bulge MVO
>knights' coronets used elsewhere in Europe.
Egad, sir. And is it more than a kind heart?
Bulge KG
Hony soyt quy mal pense
Dr
> Now, I do not want to enter into this increasingly uncivil and
> unbecoming discussion, where allegations and innuendo (almost all
> unrelated to heraldry) fly through the air, as if it was a quarrel
> between former lovers.
I am sorry but it was my plesure do dispose bogus knight,I am sorry if
that disturb you.
But your question is right on the point. What such arms should
represent?
Since I am proclamed as mental patient and whit no knowlege in
heraldry I urge you experts to explain me, Please!
Rgds.
George Lucki
news:20040810103121...@mb-m07.aol.com...
> > It is quite an ornate coronet and different from any of the
> >knights' coronets used elsewhere in Europe.
>
> Egad, sir. And is it more than a kind heart?
Perchance, Bulge, both far more and far less, no less, for what could, and
what would, be the equal of a kind heart?
Lucki
David Pritchard
The coronet is that of a Portuguese knight. Prof. Lindgren is a Knight
of the Order of Our Lady of the Conception of Vila Vicosa and the
Royal Order of Saint Michael of the Wing. Dr. Pier Felice degli Uberti
suggested to Prof. Lindgren that since the knighthoods were granted by
a non-regnant head of a royal house that he use a silver coronet to
differentiate it from honors granted by a reigning King of Portugal.
The silver coronet thus reflects Dr. degli Uberti's advice and the
gold coronet was posted prior to the change in tincture. I had
suggested to Prof. Lindgren not to use the coronet at all, even though
he could rightfully do so, because the use of a coronet, even when
valid would attract the usual sort of heraldic jackals and vultures.
Best wishes,
David Ashley Pritchard
kur...@politik.dk (Peter Kurrild-Klitgaard) wrote in message news:<763bd544.0408...@posting.google.com>...
George Lucki
news:47d40f92.0408...@posting.google.com...
> Dear Peter,
>
> The coronet is that of a Portuguese knight. Prof. Lindgren is a Knight
> of the Order of Our Lady of the Conception of Vila Vicosa and the
> Royal Order of Saint Michael of the Wing. Dr. Pier Felice degli Uberti
> suggested to Prof. Lindgren that since the knighthoods were granted by
> a non-regnant head of a royal house that he use a silver coronet to
> differentiate it from honors granted by a reigning King of Portugal.
> The silver coronet thus reflects Dr. degli Uberti's advice and the
> gold coronet was posted prior to the change in tincture.
David,
I've not run across the practice of differentiating gold=award from a
reigning monarch and silver=formerly reigning. Is this a common practice in
Portugal for more recent awards from Dom Duarte. If so it is an interesting
heraldic innovation.
I have not seen many achievements based on concessions from non-reigning
monarchs elsewhere - one other example that comes to mind are the arms used
by Guy Stair Sainty which include the usual coronet of an untitled nobleman
with five pearls set on a golden coronet and red cap and within a robe of
estate. see http://www.sainty.org/saintyarms.htm - the first diploma looks
like the handiwork of the Spanish herald the Marques de la Floresta - and
the coronet is likely a heraldic concession based upon one of the honours
held from the non-reigning Two-Sicilies family.
I know that there are still some non-reigning monarchs who occasionally
concede titles or noble rank (sometimes this is a holdover of the statutes
of a dynastic award that historically conferred personal or hereditary
nobility) while others have suspended such awards. Whether it is appropriate
to use these heraldic trappings or not seems to be a question of personal
judgement and context. Certainly the arms used publicly in Scotland would
have to be based upon whatever the Lord Lyon permitted to be matriculated
into that country, for example and if he permitted their use there they
would be appropriate. Similarly whatever the Spanish Ministry of Justice and
Grace signed off on would be appropriate to use in Spain - and there may
legitimately be differences in Scottish, Spanish or other practices in this
regard.
In my observations I have noted several tendencies among armigers. The first
is to use a simple version of arms - in the style of the period when thearms
were originally granted - so for example among many old Germanic families
arms in the mediaeval fashion without the coronets and additional helms and
crests and marshalled quarters that may have accrued to the family over the
centuries. The second is toward more ostentatious and exhuberant display as
favoured in later times. I have no difficulty with this as a matter of
someone's preference and armorial achievements are meant in part to be
impressive. (not just informative of identity but inidcative of social
standing - which is why so many inisgnial and office-related trappings have
come to clutter or embelish arms). Both of these are correct and a matter of
personal taste. The third tendency (and I am not referring to either the
example of Lindgren or Sainty) is the one towards embellishment by using any
trappings that are not reserved or restricted and aggrandizing arms with all
sorts of mantles and coronets, etc. of fanciful imagination that make arms
appear to be grander without actually conveying any meaning.
My own advice to Carl Lindgren would be different than David's - if he is
entitled to use this coronet and it pleases him to use it he should (in the
contexts where this acceptable). If others are not content - so be it.
Kind regards, George Lucki
Guy Stair Sainty
>
>"Rt Hon Viscount Bulge MVO" <viscou...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:20040810103121...@mb-m07.aol.com...
>> > It is quite an ornate coronet and different from any of the
>> >knights' coronets used elsewhere in Europe.
>>
>> Egad, sir. And is it more than a kind heart?
>
>Perchance, Bulge, both far more and far less, no less, for what could, and
>what would, be the equal of a kind heart?
Certainly not more or equal but conjoined, but was it Denis Price or his
mother who had the kind heart; surely not Alec Guinness, who in one of
his guises had consigned the poor boy to a career in haberdashery.
--
Guy Stair Sainty
www.chivalricorders.org/index3.htm
Guy Stair Sainty
says...
>
>Dear Peter,
>
>The coronet is that of a Portuguese knight. Prof. Lindgren is a Knight
>of the Order of Our Lady of the Conception of Vila Vicosa and the
>Royal Order of Saint Michael of the Wing. Dr. Pier Felice degli Uberti
>suggested to Prof. Lindgren that since the knighthoods were granted by
>a non-regnant head of a royal house that he use a silver coronet to
>differentiate it from honors granted by a reigning King of Portugal.
>The silver coronet thus reflects Dr. degli Uberti's advice and the
>gold coronet was posted prior to the change in tincture. I had
>suggested to Prof. Lindgren not to use the coronet at all, even though
>he could rightfully do so, because the use of a coronet, even when
>valid would attract the usual sort of heraldic jackals and vultures.
Jackals and vultures? It seems perfectly reasonable to me to use such
a coronet. The use of a coronet of a two Sicilies noble (a very large
group!!*) was accorded to me in the confirmation of my English arms
by the Castille y Leon Cronista, and then by the CoA as a crest coronet.
I use mine on those occasions and places wherethe display of arms is
appropriate.
* To which I am entitled by a Two Sicilies law of 1804 as a knight of Justice of
the Constantinian Order.
Pierre Aronax
"Guy Stair Sainty" <g...@sainty.org> a écrit dans le message de
news:cfare...@drn.newsguy.com...
> The use of a coronet of a two Sicilies noble (a very large
> group!!*)
<...>
> a Two Sicilies law of 1804 as a knight of Justice of
> the Constantinian Order.
Does the law consideres this to be personnal or is the crown hereditary and
are the knight of the Constantinian Order considered part of the Sicilian
nobility with their descendants?
Pierre
Lindgren
I am not an expert in the field of nobiliary rights and originally I
incorrectly used the 'or' Coronet of a Portuguese knight because I am
a Knight Commander of the Order of Our Lady of the Conception of Vila
Vicosa — H.R.H. Dom Duarte Pio Joao Miguel Gabriel Raphael de Orleans
e Braganca – also MEDAL OF MERIT, Order of the Conception of Vila
Vicosa
When Prof. Dr Pier Felice degli Uberti saw the ‘or' coronet, he told
me I was in error because I did not have the right to use the gold one
because Dom Duarte is not currently on the throne of Portugal.
I agreed with him and I followed his suggestion: i.e. - to use a
coronet of a Portuguese Knight in silver not in ‘or'. This may be
found at - http://users.panola.com/lindgren/arms.html which is my
personal website. The old copy on IAAH is incorrect and will be
changed. The only reason this old coat of arms appeared is because the
new Web Designer placed it there by mistake. I have already contacted
him to have it changed to the silver one.
This use of the silver coronet, means that I connect myself ideally to
a historical and legal values which grant me the right, under the Duke
of Braganza, to possess such a coronet .i.e. being a Knight Comander
of Order of Vila Vicosa during the Kingdom of Portugal and that of a
Fidalgo Cavaleiro.
In this manner I do not usurp (to take or make use of without right)
any coronet of nobiliary rank, as a gold coronet can symbolize but
merely take the use of the silver which is given to me in official
documents signed by the Duke, his Chancellor and His Vice Chancellor
permitting the use of the arms in its entirety and recognition of the
coronet specifically. – dated and registered in Portugal.
The use of the silver coronet (that does not have any nobiliary value
because it was never codified by the laws) can be referred to the
courtesy nobility, that is a moral nobility without any juridical
value. This is agreed to by Dr Pier Felice degli Uberti and is very
proper and correct and legal under heraldic law.
I see in the http://www.sainty.org/saintyarms.htm a close coronet of
‘or' which clearly represents a nobiliary rank and a title used by Guy
Stair Sainty, and I should be interested to know who recognized this
nobiliary title. I am always available to learn and I do not wish to
make errors and always appreciate the suggestions of experts.
C. E. Magnus Lindgren
David Pritchard
Heraldic Jackals and Vultures. This certainly not a phrase that I
would ever think of referring to such a respected member of the
heraldic/chivalric world such as your self. I had others in mind when
I wrote this phrase.
In reference to Mr. Lucki's question regarding the silver coronet, no
this is not official just a precaution to be taken by those who do not
want to be attacked on this forum. The gold cornet is perfectly valid
but why subject one's self to public scrutiny and derision when it can
be avoided. I simply do not use the coronet at all in public for this
exact reason.
Knightly coronets are not hereditary unless you were created a
hereditary knight. The coronet and title would then pass via male
primogeniture.
Best wishes,
David
Jackals and vultures? It seems perfectly reasonable to me to use such
a coronet. The use of a coronet of a two Sicilies noble (a very large
group!!*) was accorded to me in the confirmation of my English arms
by the Castille y Leon Cronista, and then by the CoA as a crest
coronet.
I use mine on those occasions and places wherethe display of arms is
appropriate.
* To which I am entitled by a Two Sicilies law of 1804 as a knight of
Justice of
the Constantinian Order.
George Lucki
news:274ba471.04081...@posting.google.com...
> My dear colleague,
>
> I am not an expert in the field of nobiliary rights and originally I
> incorrectly used the 'or' Coronet of a Portuguese knight because I am
> a Knight Commander of the Order of Our Lady of the Conception of Vila
> e Braganca - also MEDAL OF MERIT, Order of the Conception of Vila
> Vicosa
>
> When Prof. Dr Pier Felice degli Uberti saw the 'or' coronet, he told
> me I was in error because I did not have the right to use the gold one
> because Dom Duarte is not currently on the throne of Portugal.
>
> I agreed with him and I followed his suggestion: i.e. - to use a
> coronet of a Portuguese Knight in silver not in 'or'. This may be
> found at - http://users.panola.com/lindgren/arms.html which is my
> personal website. The old copy on IAAH is incorrect and will be
> changed. The only reason this old coat of arms appeared is because the
> new Web Designer placed it there by mistake. I have already contacted
> him to have it changed to the silver one.
>
> This use of the silver coronet, means that I connect myself ideally to
> a historical and legal values which grant me the right, under the Duke
> of Braganza, to possess such a coronet .i.e. being a Knight Comander
> of Order of Vila Vicosa during the Kingdom of Portugal and that of a
> Fidalgo Cavaleiro.
>
> In this manner I do not usurp (to take or make use of without right)
> any coronet of nobiliary rank, as a gold coronet can symbolize but
> merely take the use of the silver which is given to me in official
> documents signed by the Duke, his Chancellor and His Vice Chancellor
> permitting the use of the arms in its entirety and recognition of the
>
> The use of the silver coronet (that does not have any nobiliary value
> because it was never codified by the laws) can be referred to the
> courtesy nobility, that is a moral nobility without any juridical
> value. This is agreed to by Dr Pier Felice degli Uberti and is very
> proper and correct and legal under heraldic law.
>
> I see in the http://www.sainty.org/saintyarms.htm a close coronet of
> 'or' which clearly represents a nobiliary rank and a title used by Guy
> Stair Sainty, and I should be interested to know who recognized this
> nobiliary title. I am always available to learn and I do not wish to
> make errors and always appreciate the suggestions of experts.
>
> C. E. Magnus Lindgren
>
>
Carl,
Certainly that is a conservative approach to the question and no one can
fault you for it. My advice would still be to use the gold coronet if that
was the one that is the one whose use is historically conceded with the
award of Vila Vicosa and if Dom Duarte accepts such usage. Ultimately the
question becomes one of whether you accept that the rights of Dom Duarte (or
in Guy's case the Spanish branch of the Bourbon Two Siciles) are not
extinguished in this regard. If you do, and I presume you have by acceptiong
a high award from Dom Duarte, I would suggest that you proudly use the
coronet whose use is conceded in the award. What I am unclear about from
your letter was whether the gold or silver coronet was confirmed in the
documents signed by Dom Duarte. notwitstanding general customs it would be
appropriate to use the tincture of the coronet that was specifically
authorized.
I would nto worry about the approval of others in this regard (jackals and
vultures). The use appears completely legitimate.
Aside: From time to time we've discussed the phenomenon of 'Ordenshunger',
but I think there is another common syndrome - one of 'gong-envy' - anger
displaced at those who display decorations craved by someone the
gong-envious.
Kind regards,
George Lucki
George Lucki
news:cfar7...@drn.newsguy.com...
Why conjoined of course! Why, Bulge, would that you had been so clear at the
outset. Conjoined the heavens cry out - protesting against the horrors of
consignment sold haberdashery.
George Lucki
PS I will leave you with one modestly profound thought...
"But it takes more than a kind heart and a pleasing manner to make a good
Czar. What a Czar needs is intelligence, honesty and strength of character."
From: "Chapter XIX." by Helen Eggleston Haskell
From: Katrinka: The Story of a Russian Child by Helen Eggleston Haskell. New
York: E. P. Dutton & Company, 1915.
WHEN THE CZAR WAS A BOY
"VERY well, little Katrinka; I will tell you all I know about the Emperor
Nicholas and his family."
Katrinka sat up, her hands clasped on her breast.
"Will you begin, please, with when he was a little boy?"
"Of course, child, if you wish it, for after all, a man is only a grown-up
child.
"When Nicholas was a little boy I used to see him frequently on the streets
of St. Petersburg. He usually wore a Cossack's uniform and was accompanied
by one or another of his tutors, of whom he had a great many. It seemed to
me that he had a sad face and I often wondered if he would live to manhood.
His father was very severe with him, making his life as hard as that of any
peasant. He had to get up at six in the morning. His lessons began at seven.
These were not finished until noon, although he had some time for recreation
between nine and ten. After his lessons had been completed, he usually
walked for an hour with one of his tutors, dined at two and then rested or
played until five, when studies were again taken up and carried on until
seven in the evening.
"From seven until eight there were gymnastics and then supper. In the
evening, lessons were reviewed, and at ten o'clock the little boy went to
bed.
"Once, when he was about sixteen, he came to my shop and bought some books.
His manner was simple and there was a merry twinkle in his eyes, which were
brown and clear. His voice was pleasing and, although he was small and
slight for his years, he had a good figure. I liked him. But it takes more
than a kind heart and a pleasing manner to make a good Czar. What a Czar
needs is intelligence, honesty and strength of character.
George Lucki
news:JL8Sc.24$S55.8@clgrps12...
Bulge, I hope you are happy with yourself. I've searched and searched. Now I
have travel cross-town to the only movie rental store that seems to have
title in stock... oh well, a pleasant diversion from the murderous plots and
machinations of this place.
George Lucki
Pier Felice degli Uberti
Dear Peter,
you have put an interesting topic about the Lindgren silver coronet,
argument never treated until now in heraldic books.
We live in 2004, the most part of the Monarchies do not exist more,
and the States who recognize nobility become less and less.
From the end of II World War the courtesy nobility is increasing
because it is no more possible to obtain a new nobility in States
where nobility is not recognized (ie Italy).
I suggested to Carl Lindgren and to other various persons, who
obtained grants that during the past kingdoms allowed the entry into
the nobility (in this case Vila Viciosa) the use of a special coronet
in 'silver', equal to that used in 'or' for the same rank that gave
the access to the nobility at that time.
I believe today must be seriously divided the historical nobility
(class today closed in many Contries) from the "courtesy nobility",
that should have been considered full nobility if those kingdoms still
survived today.
A nobiliary grant can be made in complete value only by a Soveraign on
his throne.
All the claimants of today are private citizens in their actual life
and have only the historical importance of a past that does not exist
more.
So who still believes these romantic dreams, in the respect of
himself, his family and the historical nobility must divide what
really was from what should have been.
I believe the idea of "silver coronet" is a right solution, and Carl
Lindgren had the courage to follow this way.
In Italy we had the problem of the nobiliary titles issued by Umberto
II from his exile.
Personally I do not give value to the cortesy nobility until it does
not have an official recognition by a State, but in this case it
become historical nobility.
Pier Felice degli Uberti
Dr
I had
suggested to Prof. Lindgren not to use the coronet at all
The trio in action ha-ha always lead and adviced by bogus "Don" DAMP
(David Ashley Multybogus Pritchard)
A love which lasts due to same interests (god knows what kind of)
Rgds.
Lindgren
degli Uberti and H.E. Guy Stair Sainty for their constructive
comments. They clarify much of the muddy water relating to the coronet
issue. I will, however, just stay with the silver coronet in an
attempt to show a distinction between the two aforementioned issues.
Peter's initial comment was greatly appreciated.
Carl-
Sebastian Nelson
> monarchs elsewhere
Another example of a knightly coronet I have seen online belongs to
David Lacey Garrison, Jr. of Texas (who holds the Scottish feudal
barony of Tranent and Cockenzie):
http://www.scotarmigers.net/Tranent.jpg
Pinches labels this coronet as an Italian hereditary knight's coronet,
and I believe that Garrison's coronet was certified by the Chronicler
King of Arms of Spain on 10 December 1985, but I may be wrong. The
1986 Augustan Society Roll of Arms gives Garrison's arms, and mentions
a Spanish certification of 10 December 1985 where the blazon includes
a "cimado de una corona de Noble."
I have read that this coronet is used because Garrison is a Knight
Commander Jus Patronatus of the Constaninian Order of St. George
(which I have been told is a family commandery in which the knighthood
and the estate of the commandery descend within the family and are
thus hereditary). I think he is a member of the French-branch of the
Constantinian Order, or at least his photograph appears on their
website:
http://www.realcasadiborbone.it/immagini/delegazioni/beg.jpg
http://www.realcasadiborbone.it/ita/delegazioni/usa.htm
If the 1985 date is correct, and if the coronet derives from
French-branch of the Constantinian Order, it is interesting that this
coronet was allowed by the Chronicler King of Arms of Spain, since the
five government bodies appointed by the King of Spain to investigate
the Two-Sicilies dispute decided unanimously that H.R.H. Don Carlos de
Borbón, Duke of Calabria, is the legitimate Constantinian Grand Master
a year earlier in 1984.
It is also interesting that Garrison did not have his coronet included
in his English grant of 28 December 1988 or his Scottish
grant/matriculation of 13 May 1987 and 22 January 2001:
http://www.whitelionsociety.org.uk/Slidesandblazon/Slide22.GIF
http://www.theheraldrysociety.com/resources/davidlaceygarrison.htm
http://www.geocities.com/smomca/MVOHStJJ/USPRIORY.html
It is a very attractive coronet, and I have always wondered why he
does not use it in Britain, since Guy was able to get his Italian
coronet granted in England as a crest coronet. I think Guy's coronet
was granted by the College of Arms in 1992, so perhaps the English and
Scottish authorities were not willing to allow such coronets in 1987/8
when Garrison obtained British arms.
Cheers,
Sebastian Nelson
Guy Stair Sainty
says...
Here are the relevant decrees:
Real dispaccio, 29 novembre 1804:
“Eccelenza:
Essendo stato informato il re di quando ha V.E. proposto con sua rappresentanza
de’ 3 del passato mese di ottobre relativamente alla domanda avanzata dai
cavalieri di giustizia del real Ordine Costantiniano di essere ascritti al
registro della nobiltà, egualmente che si è praticato per cavalieri di giustizia
dell’Ordine Gerosolimitano; si è la M. S. degnata di dichiarare, che cotesto
supremo tribunale conservatore ascriva al registro della nobiltà i cavalieri di
giustizia Costantiniano anteriori al mese di aprile 1800; e che per riguardo a
quei cavalieri, che hanno ottenuto ovvero otterranno la croce di giustizia
posteriormente alla detta epoca, siano i medesimi ammessi in termini di
aggregazione, e coi pagamento di duc. 4000.”
“9 febbraio 1849 : Ministero della presidenza dei Ministri …
…i statuti dell’Ordine Costantiniano non può ottenersi né darsi croce di
giustizia senza che i candidati avessero dimostrata la nobiltà generosa de’
quattro quarti di loro famiglia; e che quante volte potesse essere accordata
tale decorazione in altro modo, ciò importerebbe di aver voluto il Sovrano, co’
suoi alti poteri dichiarare e riconoscere nel decorato la nobiltà generosa di
sua famiglia. Le soggiungo di più che la nobiltà di tali cavalieri fu
riconosciuta e dichiarata pari a quella de’ cavalieri di Malta di giustizia col
dispaccio de’ 29 novembre 1804 accordandosi loro il diritto di potere essere
ascritti ne’ registri della nobiltà del regno e similitudine di quelli di Malta
di sopraccennati.”
“10 gennaio 1850: Ministero e real segreteria di Stato della presidenza de’
ministri.
I
Che i cavalieri Costantiniani di giustizia vengono nominati dal Re gran maestro
per via di un real rescritto, e di un diploma in quattro casi.
1. Dietro le prove fatte de’ quattro quarti del decorato a tenore degli statuti.
2. In seguito della pruova medesima per soli due quarti, trattandosi di
fondatori di commende a’ termini del dispaccio del 1794.
3. Quando volte il Re gran maestro supplisce colla pienezza di sua autorità a
queste prove per la cognizione che ha della nobiltà de’ promossi.
4. Quando piaccia alla M.S. accordare a taluno per grazia la croce di giustizia
Costantiniana, e con essa la nobiltà.”
Guy Stair Sainty
>
>"George Lucki" <cps...@attglobal.net> wrote in message
>news:JL8Sc.24$S55.8@clgrps12...
>> "Guy Stair Sainty" <g...@sainty.org> wrote in message
>> news:cfar7...@drn.newsguy.com...
>> > In article <2I5Sc.1$S55.0@clgrps12>, George Lucki says...
>> > >
>> > >"Rt Hon Viscount Bulge MVO" <viscou...@aol.com> wrote in message
>> > >news:20040810103121...@mb-m07.aol.com...
>> > >> > It is quite an ornate coronet and different from any of the
>> > >> >knights' coronets used elsewhere in Europe.
>
>Bulge, I hope you are happy with yourself. I've searched and searched. Now I
>have travel cross-town to the only movie rental store that seems to have
>title in stock... oh well, a pleasant diversion from the murderous plots and
>machinations of this place.
>George Lucki
And a very entertainting evening you will have; of course it is strange that
a ducal title can apparently descend through the female line, and trial by
one's peers had already been abolished by the time frame of this movie, but
Alec Guinness surpasses himself.
George Lucki
An interesting perspective and one with which I have some sympathy. In most
of Europe the historical nobility is in fact a long-closed group whose
birthright is only one of values and traditions and not any legally
recognizied standing or perogatives. While the descendents of these families
carry forward the name and perhaps the titles, many European republican
states there is little if any legal recognition and perhaps even the laws of
their land have formally abolished the estate and forbade the use of any
titles or een predicates (as in Austria).
So this poses the first question relative to the historical nobility -
whether the titles and quality of nobility continues to exist and if so in
what sense - and I would answer the first part in the affirmative and the
second with a relatively complex and qualified answer (that I will save for
now).
The second question is whether the power to create new nobility has survived
in full, in some sense or at all the overthrow of monarchies. If answered
affirmatively (and here I would have to qualify my response depending on
which monarchy and what titles - it would be for example odd to see a
monarch of a land where the monarch could not create nobles while reigning
create after losing de facto the throne), then the question becomes to what
extent are new creations like old ones - to what extent is reigning a
prerequisite for full ennoblement - does ennoblement have to carry with it
some real perogative or can real nobility be simply symbolic - these are
some of the further questions.
The answer to these questions has broader implications for some of the other
subjects we have been discussing here. Ultimately if within the perogative
of an ex-moarch like that of a reigning monarch, a grant of nobility is an
exercise of the same perogative of honour as a heraldic grant or an order
(with the same qualification as to whether the grant of a title or other
award flows from the state or from royal/dynastic power and what the
pre-overthrow royal powers had been and how the royal power was extinguished
in a particular land - as well as the political consideration of what one is
willing to concede).
So if the award of an order from which historically flows the concession of
a noble title is proper or legitimate given the statutes of the order and
dynast's perogatives why would the grant of the accompanying title be less
proper? If the second is inhibited does this not impact the full legitimacy
of the first? The same logic would apply to the concession of heraldic
perogatives by non-reigning monarchs - whether they conferred any quality of
noble status.
Reaching a different conclusion than Pier Felice would mean that the
'courtesy nobility' created by non-reigning houses is perhaps really not
that different from the historical nobility but this causes significant
difficulties of its own - well articulated by Pier Felice. On a basic
common-sense level it seems to be the wrong conclusion.
Finally if these powers depend upon the recognition of the successor state
or any state then they create a further dilemma - both that successor states
rarely recognize or concede dynastic powers including the award of orders to
former ruling families, but also the legitimacy of the exercise of rights by
the overthrown is thereby vested in the state that overthrew the former
regime - a power rarely conceded by dynasts and their supporters. Of course
we are speaking of dignities that, even if we accept they can be created,
are only symbolic and without any practical implication outside the
relatively small circle of the supporters of the formerly reigning house -
but the focus of this discussion is on the legitimacy rather than the
practical effect of any award - and all types of awards may be legitimate
within one view of dynastic perogatives, and laws and yet completely
unrecognized by their successor states. It is within this very limited and
even artificial context that these questions are of what is 'legitimate' as
an order, a heraldic award or a noble title are posed and resolved.
Such dilemmas should have been happily avoided in my own backyard where the
elective monarchy of Poland-Lithuania has left no pretenders (and the
nobility has been a closed estate since 1795 - perhaps later depending on
how one resolves several wrinkles but certainly no later than 1918) and
where knightly orders had only limited and late appeal and the monarch had
no power to ennoble or grant heraldic privileges since 1605. After several
centuries issues might become moot, you will agree... and yet there is still
a trade in silly false orders (eg. St. Stanislas) and claims to ennoble
(same group and other).
My apologies to those whose eyes glaze over with such discussions.
Off to watch "Kind Hearts and Coronets" the humorous story of the unhappy
man who would be Duke - after he kills the eight people who stand in his
way... You have to love English humour.
Kind regards, George Lucki
"Pier Felice degli Uberti" <ia...@iol.it> wrote in message
news:d78eeb19.04081...@posting.google.com...
Guy Stair Sainty
says...
Garrison may not have disclosed this to the Cronista (a former member of the
Deputation of the legitimate Constantinian Order). Garrison is delegate in
the US of the Castro Order and a completely convinced disciple, even willing
apparently to welcome Bashar al Hassad as a confrere. He has been consistent
in his loyalty to the Castro party and very generous to this group, as to
the other chivalric bodies with which he is associated.
If he was a member of the legitimate Order, and of course he believes his
group to be that body, then he would be entitled to benefit from the
decree of 10th January 1850 that I have already posted.
In my own case, the Cronista also confirmed for me a mantle comparable to
that used by Grandees of Spain, which was a privilege granted to knights
of San Gennaro from the foundation of the Order - this Order uniquely
was given special privileges in Spain in 1738 and, indeed, from 1759-1766
was the second Order of the Crown of Spain. Today, it is second on the
official list of Orders received by HM the King of Spain retained by the
Spanish Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Spanish recipients have been
authorized to wear the decorations. The CoA refused to allow me this, as
it is not an heraldic privilege or adornment with any place in the
English heraldic tradition.
>
>It is also interesting that Garrison did not have his coronet included
>in his English grant of 28 December 1988 or his Scottish
>grant/matriculation of 13 May 1987 and 22 January 2001:
>
>http://www.heraldry-scotland.co.uk/Members/gallerydisp.asp?GalleryID=2&ImageType=large&ID=97&CurPage=1&GalleryMenuCurPage=1
>
>http://www.whitelionsociety.org.uk/Slidesandblazon/Slide22.GIF
>
>http://www.theheraldrysociety.com/resources/davidlaceygarrison.htm
>
>http://www.geocities.com/smomca/MVOHStJJ/USPRIORY.html
>
>It is a very attractive coronet, and I have always wondered why he
>does not use it in Britain, since Guy was able to get his Italian
>coronet granted in England as a crest coronet. I think Guy's coronet
>was granted by the College of Arms in 1992, so perhaps the English and
>Scottish authorities were not willing to allow such coronets in 1987/8
>when Garrison obtained British arms.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Sebastian Nelson
>
>sne...@slis.sjsu.edu
>http://heraldry.freeservers.com
Francois R. Velde
>http://users.panola.com/lindgren/arms.html
Two quick questions: is the order of St. Ignatius visible in this achievement?
What does the motto mean?
--
François Velde
ve...@nospam.org (replace by "heraldica")
Heraldry Site: http://www.heraldica.org/
David Pritchard
Dear François,
I am quite surprised that someone like yourself, who presents himself
as a scholar, would fail to know the meaning of Prof. Lindgren's
motto. "NITERE AD OPUS MAGNUM" is Latin for "Strive (or struggle )
for the Great Work" which is a reference to advancement of the
Christian religion.
The order pendant from Prof. Lindgrens arms is that of the Equestrian
Order of the Holy Sepulchre. How could you confuse this with the
Catholic patriarchal decoration of Saint Igantius of Antioch? After
all it was about two years ago that we had the debate over the
significance of Catholic patrichal decorations. Have you forgotten? It
was decided that they were insignificant. The three stars are those of
the Order of the Conception of Vila Vicosa, Imperial Order of the Star
of Ethiopia and the Royal Order of Saint Michael of the Wing.
Best wishes to all,
David
(aka: Don Multybogus)
David Pritchard
David Pritchard
David Pritchard
Jan B?hme
> kur...@politik.dk (Peter Kurrild-Klitgaard) wrote in message news:<763bd544.0408...@posting.google.com>...
>
> Dear Peter,
> you have put an interesting topic about the Lindgren silver coronet,
> argument never treated until now in heraldic books.
> We live in 2004, the most part of the Monarchies do not exist more,
> and the States who recognize nobility become less and less.
> From the end of II World War the courtesy nobility is increasing
> because it is no more possible to obtain a new nobility in States
> where nobility is not recognized (ie Italy).
> I suggested to Carl Lindgren and to other various persons, who
> obtained grants that during the past kingdoms allowed the entry into
> the nobility (in this case Vila Viciosa) the use of a special coronet
> in 'silver', equal to that used in 'or' for the same rank that gave
> the access to the nobility at that time.
Ah! So it was your idea originally. I like it. In fact, I like it a
lot. Living in an extant monarchy, I have a very distinct feeling
that, while a non-reigning royal house still is Something, it isn't
the Same Thing by a long chalk. The case is obvious if we examine a
hypothetical state that on one hand has retained the power of granting
and recognising nobility, while there, on the other hand, still exists
a formerly reigning royal house that confers nobiliary honours. In
such a case it is of course of paramount importance to distinguish
between new nobilisations recognised by the State in question and new
nobilisations _not_ recognised by the same State.
The coronet argent seems to me as rather an elegant way of recognising
the Something, while still admitting that it isn't the Same Thing.
But, as Guy has pointed out, there is no established praxis to do so.
An alternative is of course to display a coronet or in "insider"
situations, and not display a coronet at all in other circumstances.
Proudly to display the coronet or in all situations would - at least
to me -suggest that the armiger in question does not recognise the
legitimity of the actually existing state in any way whatsoever -
which is of course entirely possible, but rather a strong political
statement. An armiger not intending to make that statement might want
to avoid giving the impression of actually making it.
But I think that your idea is very good, and that it would be
beneficial if it became accepted praxis - however this praxis would
come actually about. Maybe some kind of conference of heads of
formerly reinging houses of Europe might agree on such a thing, if
judiciously pushed by bodies such as the one you preside over?
Jan Böhme
Jan B?hme
> In article <p2bSc.44$S55.24@clgrps12>, George Lucki says...
>
> And a very entertainting evening you will have; of course it is strange that
> a ducal title can apparently descend through the female line,
Strange in practice, of course. But it is entirely within the power of
the Sovereign to confer a dukedom with that kind of remainder. I would
even imagine that the Sovereign can create a dukedom that is
exclusively inherited through the female line, if she is so disposed.
Jan Böhme
Pier Felice degli Uberti
> > I have not seen many achievements based on concessions from non-reigning
> > monarchs elsewhere
I believe it is the moment to say the truth or better we learn to read
the contents of the Spanish certifications issued by Don Vicente de
Cadenas y Vicent, that many interpret in wrong manner.
I discuss about this argument with de Cadenas from 1980.
>
> Another example of a knightly coronet I have seen online belongs to
> David Lacey Garrison, Jr. of Texas (who holds the Scottish feudal
> barony of Tranent and Cockenzie):
>
> http://www.scotarmigers.net/Tranent.jpg
>
> Pinches labels this coronet as an Italian hereditary knight's coronet,
> and I believe that Garrison's coronet was certified by the Chronicler
> King of Arms of Spain on 10 December 1985, but I may be wrong. The
> 1986 Augustan Society Roll of Arms gives Garrison's arms, and mentions
> a Spanish certification of 10 December 1985 where the blazon includes
> a "cimado de una corona de Noble."
I cannot understand how it is put in a coat of arms to a not Italian
the coronet of Italian hereditary knight, that is an Italian nobiliary
title that has nothing to do with a chivalric order.
About what you write "cimado de una corona de Noble" this does not
mean nothing, because in Spain the "corona de Noble" does not exist.
What Cadenas writes is a generic term that can mean different kinds of
coronet (ie a simple golden ring, a coronet with 5 golden points, a
coronet with 3 golden point etc.)
Cadenas talked about a coronet of generic nobility not of the specific
coronet of an Italian noble (and also in this case there are some
kinds).
Cadenas never should have put a coronet of Italian noble to a person
who is not Italian, or of Italian nobility.
The presence of the Italian noble coronet in the certification of coat
of arms issued by de Cadenas is not a recognition of nobility, but
only an ornament.
The Spanish nobiliary law does not recognize the nobility without
title, and less than less the Italian nobility (or that of other
States).
The proof of this affirmation of mine (that is the same of Cadenas) is
given by the fact that the helmet is not that of an Italian noble, but
a particular helmet invented by Cadenas that is not codified by the
Spanish nobiliary legislation, in few words it is similar to an helmet
of hidalgo, but is not, and it not an helmet of Italian noble: There
are very few cases of certifications of genealogy, nobility and cost
of arms (that is not the simple certification of coat of arms that
certifies simply a coat of arms without any nobiliary implication)
where it is put correctly the coronet of Italian noble on an helmet of
Italian noble.
Pier Felice degli Uberti
Pierre Aronax
<...>
> Here are the relevant decrees:
<...>
Thanks, that's interesting.
Pierre
Dr
"NITERE AD OPUS MAGNUM" is Latin for "Strive (or struggle )
for the Great Work" which is a reference to advancement of the
Christian religion.
Is this your motto to when you selling Catholic bogus orders to fools?
Dr
"NITERE AD OPUS MAGNUM" is Latin for "Strive (or struggle )
for the Great Work" which is a reference to advancement of the
Christian religion.
Is this your motto to when you selling Catholic bogus orders to fools?
BTW: Where is your order of Catholic patriarchal decoration of Saint
Francois R. Velde
"Letters patent creating a peerage must specify the patentee, the name of the
dignity and its limitation to future heirs of the patentee. The limitation must
be one known to the law. The rule in England is a limitation to heirs male of
the body with an occasional addition of special remainders to bring in the
daughters and their issue, brothers, nephews, and collaterals, but ultimately
the descent is always fixed in an heir male line." (Halsbury's Laws of England,
vol 35 para 924).
Tim Powys-Lybbe
wrote:
One advantage of England not having a constitution is that we don't
have to pay attention to such pronouncements.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
Francois R. Velde
suum:
>In medio rec.heraldry aperuit celin...@panola.com (Lindgren) os
>suum:
>>http://users.panola.com/lindgren/arms.html
>
>Two quick questions: is the order of St. Ignatius visible in this
>achievement?
>What does the motto mean?
>
>--
>François Velde
>ve...@nospam.org (replace by "heraldica")
>Heraldry Site: http://www.heraldica.org/
>
>Dear François,
>
>I am quite surprised that someone like yourself, who presents himself
>as a scholar, would fail to know the meaning of Prof. Lindgren's
>motto. "NITERE AD OPUS MAGNUM" is Latin for "Strive (or struggle )
>for the Great Work" which is a reference to advancement of the
>Christian religion.
I don't know if I am a scholar, but I know that if I want to be one, I must
never be too embarrassed to ask a question. I must say the translation provided
on that web page ("The Search for God and Goodness") was a little disconcerting.
>The order pendant from Prof. Lindgrens arms is that of the Equestrian
>Order of the Holy Sepulchre. How could you confuse this with the
>Catholic patriarchal decoration of Saint Igantius of Antioch?
I asked if it was visible. Why do you imagine I was confusing it with anything?
The reason I asked is that someone I don't know asked me yesterday what KCSI
stood for, and I wasn't really sure. As I googled a bit, I came across Carl
Lindgren mentioning his "internationally recognised Knight Commander from the
Order of Saint Ignatius of Antioch" to the Australian parliament:
http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/committee/priv_ctte/report_77/
I then wondered if it appeared in the achievement recently discussed.
And no, I did not remember that "it was decided that Catholic patriarchal
decorations were insignificant". There are threads I miss, and others I simply
forget. I'll try to remember the decision that was made.
David Pritchard
"NITERE AD OPUS MAGNUM" is Latin for "Strive (or struggle )
for the Great Work" which is a reference to advancement of the
Christian religion.
Is this your motto to when you selling Catholic bogus orders to fools?
BTW: Where is your order of Catholic patriarchal decoration of Saint
Igantius of Antioch?
Dear Oliver,
As I wrote previously the motto "NITERE AD OPUS MAGNUM" is that of
Prof. Lindgren not my motto. I do hope that you read your medical
charts more carefully than the posts on this forum or surely one of
your patients will die from medical malpractice.
If I was ever to sell bogus Catholic orders to fools, I would surely
put your name at the top of my list of prospective clients.
My decoration of Saint Ignatius of Antioch is in a box on a shelf. A
rather odd question unless you were planning to burgle my house. Be
warned that I have many semi-automatic pistols.
Best wishes,
David Pritchard
aka: Don Multybogus
Guy Stair Sainty
You are right, but really only because of the reforms which removed the
hereditary peerage from the house of Lords. In the past the creation of
a peerage included automatically and without exception the right to
sit in the House of Lords; but equally the latter could refuse to admit
a peer whose peerage was created contrary to established precedent - hence
the Wensleydale case. Charles I created a female as "Duchess of Dudley",
the widow of the grandson of the attainted Robert Dudley Earl of Leicester whose
father had been the attainted Duke of Northumberland - he knew that
as a woman, and safely resident abroad, this lady would never claim a
right to sit. However, the conventions of precedent are such that the
Crown usually feels bound by it, and exceptional cases such as the
Marlborough case, or the Fife case, will always remain exceptional and
after the first females still demanded male succession.
Guy Stair Sainty
Halsbury's pronouncement would indeed guide the House of Lords in admitting
a peerage, but could not limit the Crown's prerogative - as I have
already noted here, since hereditary peers no longer enjoy the right to
a seat in parliament, it is likely that the question of a remainder would
not come before it unless there was a succession dispute which warranted
the decision of the Committee for Privileges. If, indeed, the Crown
decided to recommence the practice of creating hereditary peerages, but
in a modernist spirit decided that there should be no preference for males
over females but simple primogeniture, I wonder what would be the views of
a the Committee for Privileges if the first son but second child then
challenged the succession of his elder sister?
Peter Kurrild-Klitgaard
> Dear Peter,
>
> The coronet is that of a Portuguese knight. Prof. Lindgren is a Knight
> of the Order of Our Lady of the Conception of Vila Vicosa and the
> Royal Order of Saint Michael of the Wing. Dr. Pier Felice degli Uberti
> suggested to Prof. Lindgren that since the knighthoods were granted by
> a non-regnant head of a royal house that he use a silver coronet to
> differentiate it from honors granted by a reigning King of Portugal.
> The silver coronet thus reflects Dr. degli Uberti's advice and the
> gold coronet was posted prior to the change in tincture. I had
> suggested to Prof. Lindgren not to use the coronet at all, even though
> he could rightfully do so, because the use of a coronet, even when
> valid would attract the usual sort of heraldic jackals and vultures.
Dear David,
Thank you for your reply. That certainly did clear up some things.
My impression was that such coronets were for hereditary knights
rather than (as, I presume, would be argued in this case) someone who
is a non-hereditary knight. But maybe I am mistaken. However, is
there any statutory basis for the use of such (a) coronet(s) by
Portugese knights?
Also, has the Portugese Council of Nobility recognized the award of VV
by Dom Duarte as the equivalent of an ennoblement?
Sincerely,
Peter Kurrild-Klitgaard
Peter Kurrild-Klitgaard
> My dear colleague,
Thank you for the explanation.
> I am not an expert in the field of nobiliary rights and originally I
> incorrectly used the 'or' Coronet of a Portuguese knight because I am
> a Knight Commander of the Order of Our Lady of the Conception of Vila
> Vicosa ? H.R.H. Dom Duarte Pio Joao Miguel Gabriel Raphael de Orleans
> e Braganca ? also MEDAL OF MERIT, Order of the Conception of Vila
> Vicosa
[snip]
> This use of the silver coronet, means that I connect myself ideally to
> a historical and legal values which grant me the right, under the Duke
> of Braganza, to possess such a coronet .i.e. being a Knight Comander
> of Order of Vila Vicosa during the Kingdom of Portugal and that of a
> Fidalgo Cavaleiro.
As I have asked in a different posting: Is there a statutory basis for
the design and heraldic usage of this coronet for someone who is a
Portugese knight? (rather than a hereditary knight) And has this
treatment been recognized by the Portugese Council of Nobility?
Best wishes,
Peter Kurrild-Klitgaard
Peter Kurrild-Klitgaard
> I am quite surprised that someone like yourself, who presents himself
> as a scholar, would fail to know the meaning of Prof. Lindgren's
> motto.
Actually, in the 7-8 years I have frequented this forum, I cannot
recall that I have ever seen Francois Velde present himself as being a
scholar. However, judging from his many writings, there can be little
discussion about the fact that he indeed _is_ a scholar.
But since we are now discussing both additaments and scholarly
credentials, you might be able to answer this: I have noticed that you
(in addition to "Noble" and "His Excellency") have recently begun
styling yourself "Dr." (for example here:
http://www.geocities.com/torre_de_azur/Spanish). Now, since I have a
Ph.D. myself (as Francois does), let me offer my congratulations; I
know that achieving a doctorate is not that easy, and so let me also
ask: From what institution of higher learning have you achieved this
distinguished academic degree? And in what field?
Best wishes,
Peter Kurrild-Klitgaard
Jan B?hme
So I imagined wrong. Or did I? On second reading, it is not completely
clear from the phrasing in Halsbury's whether the author describes
what has always been the case, or what must be the case.
Jan Böhme
Dr
If I was ever to sell bogus Catholic orders to fools, I would surely
> put your name at the top of my list of prospective clients.
But you did try to sell me one didn't you? You was mistaking I wasn't
fool and you did not succced :)
I was asking if you use that motto during the salles? Meaning strugle
for the great cose (money), ha ha
If you live a honorest life way do you need guns?
And I can buy your house with you in it, every day of the year if I
wish to, hencefor no need to burgling. You know way? Becouse I can
affort it and you are on SALE.
Do not worry abut my patients they are in excellent handes.
I se you love your new name:
It contains "Don" for which you going seek for, and Multybogus which
is exact description of you.
Well, it is a present from me to you, have fun!
BTW:Since Sant Tome and Principe is a suveren republic how can one
bishop establish an order of that name? How he can establish any
catholic order whit out papal aproval?
Any body from ICOC for an answer please!?
Dr
So what you are saying is that it is ok to bear cornet of rank in
bronse if not noble in Sverige, granted from people till ex.?
MVH
Oliver
jan....@sh.se (Jan B?hme) wrote in message news:<5cbdad47.0408...@posting.google.com>...
George Lucki
news:763bd544.04081...@posting.google.com...
I actually have acouple of extensions to Peter's question and I hope someone
could also address themselves to these issues -
1. When I was looking at Pinches' book on European nobility and heraldry I
noticed that Portugal had a rather complex gradation of knightly grades some
of which appear to be noble and other not necessarily so and that there was
some distinction between cavaleiro's and fidalgos (which I presume is
somehow akin to the Spanish hidalgo - apologies for any spelling errors as I
don't have Pinches close at hand. Is this a different system than elsewhere
and what are some of the distinctions?
2. There was also IIRC correctly some distinction between Portuguese noble
titles within the perogartive of the Crown and some subset of awards that
had been associated historically with the Braganza house and distinct from
the 'royal awards'. Have I understood this correctly and what are some of
the distinctions if any?
3. What is the relationship between the Portuguese Council of Nobility (is
this different from the Association of the Portuguese Nobility) and Dom
Duarte - do they have a role in reviewing or authorizing the awards of Dom
Duarte? Of course such a role would not be unusual in the traditions of a
Constitutional Monarchy - in Poland for example since 1605 ennoblement was
within the perogative of Parliament and not within the authority of the
King. The King as executive would though implement the parliamentary
resolution that ennobled an individual. I was not aware of any such
constitutional check in place in Iberian or Italian realms. So perhaps the
first question would be how does Dom Duarte define the nature of the
knighthood that is conferred by Vila Vicosa?
Kind regards, George Lucki
Francois R. Velde
> So I imagined wrong. Or did I? On second reading, it is not completely
> clear from the phrasing in Halsbury's whether the author describes
> what has always been the case, or what must be the case.
I omitted the footnotes with references to various cases, going back
several centuries. I think the author describes established (pre-1999)
practice.
But as Guy points out, now that the House of Lords Committee for
Privileges would not have to deal with future hereditary peerage
creations (should there be more), it's not clear how much these
principles still apply.
--
François R. Velde
ve...@nospam.org (replace by "heraldica")
Heraldica Web Site: http://www.heraldica.org/
Harry
It is common practice in Portugal to call someone "Doctor" when they
are a graduate of a University with a BA degree without holding a
formal doctorate or even as an address for someone who is educated.
Perhaps this then is the case ?
regards,
Harry
David Pritchard
> Actually, in the 7-8 years I have frequented this forum, I cannot
> recall that I have ever seen Francois Velde present himself as being a
> scholar. However, judging from his many writings, there can be little
> discussion about the fact that he indeed _is_ a scholar.
>
> But since we are now discussing both additaments and scholarly
> credentials, you might be able to answer this: I have noticed that you
> (in addition to "Noble" and "His Excellency") have recently begun
> styling yourself "Dr." (for example here:
> http://www.geocities.com/torre_de_azur/Spanish). Now, since I have a
> Ph.D. myself (as Francois does), let me offer my congratulations; I
> know that achieving a doctorate is not that easy, and so let me also
> ask: From what institution of higher learning have you achieved this
> distinguished academic degree? And in what field?
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Peter Kurrild-Klitgaard
Dear Peter,
You have addressed an issue which has brought me discomfort for
sometime, that is the Portuguese and Brazilian habit of addressing any
learned person as Doctor. A few times a month I receive an envelope
addressed to "Dr. Pritchard" and I cringe.
I even have "Doctor Pritchard" on a certificate from a historical
society in Sao Paulo. I asked the society if they would re-issue the
certificate and they said there was no need because in Brazil most
every learned person was addressed as such, with or without a doctoral
degree.
I will however ask the webmaster of the Internet site that you located
to drop the "Dr." from infront of my name.
Best wishes,
David
Joseph McMillan
> >
> The reason I asked is that someone I don't know asked me yesterday what KCSI
> stood for, and I wasn't really sure.
Well, I can't say for certain that these initials haven't been
appropriated for some "order" or another, but in British usage they
stand for Knight Commander of the [Most Exalted Order of the] Star of
India. Since the order hasn't been given since 1947, I must assume
that anyone rightfully using these postnominals today is an extremely,
extremely elderly veteran of the old Indian Civil Service.
Joseph McMillan, A.B.
Francois R. Velde
>Francois R. Velde <ve...@heraldicanospam.invalid> wrote in message news:<rn9kh0d7rp21hs1g2...@4ax.com>...
>> >
>> The reason I asked is that someone I don't know asked me yesterday what KCSI
>> stood for, and I wasn't really sure.
>
>Well, I can't say for certain that these initials haven't been
>appropriated for some "order" or another, but in British usage they
>stand for Knight Commander of the [Most Exalted Order of the] Star of
>India.
Thanks; I should have thought of that.
>Since the order hasn't been given since 1947, I must assume
>that anyone rightfully using these postnominals today is an extremely,
>extremely elderly veteran of the old Indian Civil Service.
There is at one such around, see
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=2eb80cd5.0407290255.6da1ba6b%40posting.google.com
Probably the last.
Lindgren
realize now that nothing is internationally recognized. I mean really
do you think a Protestant will recognize Ignatius as a decoration?
Carl--
David Pritchard
> As I have asked in a different posting: Is there a statutory basis for
> the design and heraldic usage of this coronet for someone who is a
> Portugese knight? (rather than a hereditary knight) And has this
> treatment been recognized by the Portugese Council of Nobility?
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Peter Kurrild-Klitgaard
Dear Peter,
The usage of the traditional coronet of a Portuguese knight is that it
is placed a top the helm and when the helm is not used, to place it a
top the shield. An illustration of the Portuguese knightly coronet can
be seen in the book "Heraldry, Sources, Symbols and Meaning" by
Ottfried Neubecker, on the two page chart labeled "Crowns and Coronets
of Rank". It is interesting to see the Portuguese knightly coronet
labeled as a Spanish knightly coronet as I have never seen one used in
Spanish heraldry.
A less attractive variant of this coronet has been used for over a
half century (but it has no historical basis) by the untitled noble
members of the Association of the Historical Portuguese Nobility which
is a member body of the Commission d'Information et de Liaison des
Associations Nobles d'Europe (CILANE). An illustration of this
post-1910 coronet can be seen in Carl Alexander von Volborth's book
"Heraldry, Customs, Rules and Styles" Figure No. 866.
The Council of the Nobility or Conselho de Nobreza, was created in
1950 by His Royal Highness Dom Duarte Nuno, Duke of Bragança, late
father of the present Duke of Bragança, The creation of the Council
was merely a courtesy on the part of Dom Duarte Nuno as legally
speaking he was the Fons Honorum.Less than a year ago, HRH Dom Duarte
Pio, Duke of Bragança suspended the Conselho de Nobreza. In a letter
addressing this issue Dom Duarte said:
"Após uma análise exaustiva do relatório produzido pela Comissão e
ouvido o meu Conselho Privado, decide não reconstituir o Consehlo de
Nobreza preferindo que os actuais representantes da antiga nobreza, no
contexto da sua responsibilidade histórica, tomem a iniciativa de se
organizar em Associação de Dirieto Civil, especificamente constituída
para tratar estas matérias, em estreita colaboração com a existenete
Associação da Nobreza Histórica de Portugal."
"Esta nova associacão deverá designar-se Instituto da Nobreza
Portuguesa e será unica entidade com competência para aplicar as
normas e regulamentos aprovados para manter viva a memória histórica
das distinções nobiláriquicas e honoríficas, dignidades e formes de
tratamento da Tradição Portuguesa."
The English translation:
"After an exhaustive analysis of the report produced by the Commission
and hearing my Private Advice, We decide not reconstitute the Council
of Nobility, preferring that the actual representatives of the old
nobility, in the context of it's historical responsibilities, take the
initiative of be organized into an association of civil law,
specifically constituted to treat these matters, in narrow
collaboration with the existing Association of the Historical
Portuguese Nobility."
"This new association will call itself the Institute of the Portuguese
Nobility and will be an unique entity with competence for applying the
norms and regulations approved to maintain the historical memory of
the nobiliary and honorífic distinctions, dignities and forms of
address according to the Portuguese Tradition."
I hope that the information that I have provided here satisfies your
curiosity about nobiliary matters in Portugal. I have grown tired of
this topic and have other matters to which to attend so I will not be
answering any more of your posts.
Best wishes,
David Pritchard
Dr
Rgds.
kur...@politik.dk (Peter Kurrild-Klitgaard) wrote in message news:<763bd544.04081...@posting.google.com>...
Dr
I was under impression that Spain and Portugal do have universites and
do have possibilites to obatin Doctorate and Dr title.
It seems that over there is sufficient with 3 yr college to be a
Doctor.And of course obligatory practic on the beach!
Deamn Way I did not simply move there insteed for losing so many years
to become a Dr.
BTW: I do have a colegues who come to Sweden to work from
Spain,Brazil,Mexico etc. They never address our medical nurses (which
in every case have 3 yr nursing faculty degree and in some cases so
much as 4 yr nursing faculty education) as Dr.
I did waste to many yr to be a Dr.Med. My bad. (and no practice on the
wather :( )
Rgds.
harold...@eudoramail.com (Harry) wrote in message news:<ad455a29.04081...@posting.google.com>...
Jan B?hme
> Hej Jan,
> So what you are saying is that it is ok to bear cornet of rank in
> bronse if not noble in Sverige, granted from people till ex.?
Bronze is not a tincture, and besides it would be to similar to gold
to be suitable as a differencing of a coronet or.
But yes, if someone was a member of a well established order
conferring knightly rank, but had this rank conferred by a head of an
non-reigning royal house I would personally think a coronet _argent_
was appropriate.
But this is my personal opinion. I haven't checked with Sveriges
Heraldiska Förening, Heraldiska Samfundet or Skandinavisk Vapenrulla.
These august bodies might take a different view.
Besides, in Sweden, it isn't only the coronet that would be an issue,
but the type of helmet. The "open" helmet (with visor) is restricted
to nobility. As far as I have understood, it is considered at least
reasonably OK also for members of bona fide noble families that are
not introduced to the swedish House of Nobility - and thus technically
commoners - to use the open helmet. (The legislation restricting an
open helmet to noblemen dates from 1762. At that time, and up to c.
1800, members of bona fide noble families of foreign extraction could
get introduction to the House of Nobility by a process called
"naturalisation", which didn't demand a letter patent from the Swedish
King. Thus, there were essentially no noble Swedish citizens whose
family didn't have a seat in the House of Nobility at the time of the
Act. However, in the last two centuries we have had an influx of
individuals belonging to families that were considered noble in their
country of origin, whose nobility was not officially recognised here.)
However, this view might not be universally accepted. I note that the
reproduction of the arms of von Euler-Chelpin in "Ointroducerad Adels
Kalender" (Calendar of Unintroduced Nobility) that Gerard posted a
link to in the "Arms of scientists" thread, are displayed with
coronet, but on a closed helmet. Right now I can't say whether
Ointroducerad Adels Kalender does this consistently, but if they do,
the probably use a commoner's helmet as a matter of caution to avoid
all possible accusations of misrepresentation.
So the coronet is one thing, and the helmet is another. I would advise
keeping one's commoner's helmet and making the coronet argent in the
situation you mentioned. The very prudent thing for an unintroduced
noble might be to display a coronet or on a commoner's helmet.
But I don't know whether this actually would apply to any Swedish
citizens. Most, perhaps all, of the non-reigning royal houses that in
practice still do confer knightly rank are strictly Catholic. This
limits the number of Swedish potential recipients for such honours
rather severely.
Jan Böhme
Joseph McMillan
> >
> society in Sao Paulo. I asked the society if they would re-issue the
> certificate and they said there was no need because in Brazil most
> every learned person was addressed as such, with or without a doctoral
> degree.
Well, maybe. I do a fair amount of work with Brazilian sources and
would hesitate to accept that this is a general rule.
In any case, it doesn't account for the fact that the Spanish site in
question lists the following in its acknowledgements and thanks
section:
Sr. Guy Stair Sainty
Dott. Pier Felice degli Uberti
Dr. David Pritchard (and again as Dr. David Ashley Pritchard)
S.E. Carlos Evaristo
Profesor Dr. Carl Edwin Magnus Lindgren
Alan Merwin
señor Clyde Webb
I guess the webmaster did not consider Messrs. Sainty, Merwin, and
Webb to be "learned."
On C. M. E. Lindgren's website, reports of a reception for the
Vietnamese pretender style Mr. Pritchard as "H.E.," presumably for
"His Eminence," as U.S. citizens do not use the style "His
Excellency." Even the President is only "The Honorable."
Joseph McMillan
Peter Kurrild-Klitgaard
> >
> > the design and heraldic usage of this coronet for someone who is a
> > Portugese knight? (rather than a hereditary knight) And has this
> > treatment been recognized by the Portugese Council of Nobility?
[snip]
> Dear Peter,
Dear David,
Thank you for your detailed answers, which answers most of my
questions.
> The usage of the traditional coronet of a Portuguese knight is that it
> is placed a top the helm and when the helm is not used, to place it a
> top the shield.
So, since you do not answer my question as to whether there is a
statutory basis for the recent use of such a coronet for knights of
VV, I take it that you either do not know if that is the case, or that
such a basis does not exist (?).
> An illustration of the Portuguese knightly coronet can
> be seen in the book "Heraldry, Sources, Symbols and Meaning" by
> Ottfried Neubecker, on the two page chart labeled "Crowns and Coronets
> of Rank". It is interesting to see the Portuguese knightly coronet
> labeled as a Spanish knightly coronet as I have never seen one used in
> Spanish heraldry.
There are indeed many errors in this scheme in Neubecker's (otherwise
very good and beautiful) book. Since I asked the initial question a
few days ago, I had noticed the similarity between the two and assumed
that it had somehow been placed in the wrong row. But simultaneously
it also raises another issue, which connects to my earlier questions:
For is this not intended to be a coronet for hereditary knights? At
least that seems to be the case for other coronets in this scheme
(e.g. the Italian).
> A less attractive variant of this coronet has been used for over a
> half century (but it has no historical basis) by the untitled noble
> members of the Association of the Historical Portuguese Nobility which
> is a member body of the Commission d'Information et de Liaison des
> Associations Nobles d'Europe (CILANE). An illustration of this
> post-1910 coronet can be seen in Carl Alexander von Volborth's book
> "Heraldry, Customs, Rules and Styles" Figure No. 866.
Yes, I had noticed that one too.
I certainly did not mean to tire you; I was merely curious about the
nature of the claims made. But I thank you for the information you
have provided. Meanwhile, if you cannot, perhaps your confrere, Dr.
Lindgren, can answer my original questions: Is this coronet one for
hereditary knights or for "regular" knights? And is there a statutory
basis for the modern use of such coronets in Portugese heraldry? (as
there is for coronets in, say, British, Danish, Belgian, Swedish
heraldry, etc.)
Best wishes,
Peter Kurrild-Klitgaard
Dr
It apears that rulles on helmets and cornets are no longer valid (if
all privileges are revoced, but I suspect that even the right of open
helmet and cornet are revocet to/ even if not exctly specifiend in the
new law.
Bronze is a metal not a tinkture as is Or and Argent, it is not in the
clasical heraldry but if we make new rulles then...
MVH
an.b...@sh.se (Jan B?hme) wrote in message news:<5cbdad47.0408...@posting.google.com>...
Gerard Michon
I took the liberty of posting (with due credit) a summary of your comments
pertaining to von Euler-Chelpin on the page were the reproduction you refer
to appears, namely: www.numericana.com/arms/chelpin.htm
Best regards,
Gerard P. Michon, Ph.D.
www.numericana.com/arms
"Jan B?hme" <jan....@sh.se> wrote in message
news:5cbdad47.0408...@posting.google.com...
> [...]
Guy Stair Sainty
>
>"Peter Kurrild-Klitgaard" <kur...@politik.dk> wrote in message
>news:763bd544.04081...@posting.google.com...
>> pritch...@hotmail.com (David Pritchard) wrote in message
>news:<47d40f92.0408...@posting.google.com>...
>> > Dear Peter,
>> >
>> > The coronet is that of a Portuguese knight. Prof. Lindgren is a Knight
>
>3. What is the relationship between the Portuguese Council of Nobility (is
>this different from the Association of the Portuguese Nobility) and Dom
>Duarte - do they have a role in reviewing or authorizing the awards of Dom
>Duarte? Of course such a role would not be unusual in the traditions of a
>Constitutional Monarchy - in Poland for example since 1605 ennoblement was
>within the perogative of Parliament and not within the authority of the
>King. The King as executive would though implement the parliamentary
>resolution that ennobled an individual. I was not aware of any such
>constitutional check in place in Iberian or Italian realms. So perhaps the
>first question would be how does Dom Duarte define the nature of the
>knighthood that is conferred by Vila Vicosa?
This was not a body that existed under the Monarchy; it was instituted by
Dom Duarte's father in imitation of the Spanish Diputacion de las Grandezasy
Titulos, and was designed to remove him from dealing with the nitty-gritty
of the regulation of Portuguese titles, particuarly the vexed question of
successions - with many claimants to renewals of Portuguese titles that had
been created for 1, 2 or 3 lives. Dom Duarte told me that he intended to
reform this somehow, and that for some reason that he did not make entirely
clear, he was dissastisfied with its workings. I have the impression that
possibly his present advisers would like perhaps to take control of this
process, but I am not sure of this.
Guy Stair Sainty
says...
>
>>
>> As I have asked in a different posting: Is there a statutory basis for
>> the design and heraldic usage of this coronet for someone who is a
>> Portugese knight? (rather than a hereditary knight) And has this
>> treatment been recognized by the Portugese Council of Nobility?
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Peter Kurrild-Klitgaard
>
>Dear Peter,
>
>The usage of the traditional coronet of a Portuguese knight is that it
>is placed a top the helm and when the helm is not used, to place it a
>
>I hope that the information that I have provided here satisfies your
>curiosity about nobiliary matters in Portugal. I have grown tired of
>this topic and have other matters to which to attend so I will not be
>answering any more of your posts.
>
Thank you for clearing this up; I had only part of the story.
George Lucki
news:763bd544.04081...@posting.google.com...
news:<47d40f92.04081...@posting.google.com>...
> basis for the modern use of such coronets in Portugese heraldry? (as
> there is for coronets in, say, British, Danish, Belgian, Swedish
> heraldry, etc.)
>
Peter,
I'm not sure I follow your question in terms of the 'statutory basis' for
such (that is specifically knightly) coronets - do you mean in the statutes
of the order of Vila Vicosa or in the statutes of modern Portuguese Law.
If it is the former - I would be interested to learn this myself - I don;t
have access to these statutes and portuguese heraldry is poorly covered in
standard references. As you are a member of AIH and ICOC would you be ble to
access this information from your international colleagues - it is
disappointing when even the local university research library does not have
this info available.
If it is the latter I would suspect that modern protuguese law does not
provide for the use of nobillary or chivalric coronets for any of the
dynastic orders. While it appears that Dom Duarte is accorded some de facto
recognition in Portugal, it is after all a republic and the orders of St.
Isabel and Vila Vicosa are not among the national orders. I believe that the
question might better be put in reference to older practices, whether
stutaory or customary and I understand the Portuguese crown had regulated
heraldry from early times and in somewhat later times both dispensed arms
and titles liberally as a way of encouraging foreign service and as a source
of taxation rvenue. I am not at all familiar with the specifics of this but
would suggest that the answer to such questions would best be obtained from
Dom Duarte. There was a Council of Nobility that had served at the Duke's
pleasure and was charged with overseeing such matters since the end of WW
II, but I understand that it has been recently abolished so that presumably
whatever powers were delegated to it have reverted to the duke or to any
successor body he has established. I understand that dom duarte would likely
maintain that heraldic concessions of any sort relating to any dignity he
awards are within his purview as head of the Royal House.
The alternative examples you gave of Britain, Denmark, Sweden, and Belgium
are in my view a matter of comparing apples and oranges (and perhaps also
not correct, although I will leave this question with you as the one most
knowledgable here). These countries are all ones in which there is both a
reigning monarch and the knightly orders of merit are within the pantheon of
national orders. The analogy between the countries you cited and the issues
of heraldic privileges in herediatry and non-hereditary knighthood are also,
I believe misunderstood - and again comparing apples and oranges.
That said when it comes to Britain I was not aware of any statuatory
regulation of knightly coronets - in fact there is no use of a knightly
coronet in any of the British realms. There is a distinctive helm (except
for VOSJ in England) but even here I had understood that the regulations
concerning the use f the helm were within the organic law of arms rather
than in the stautues of the orders or within the national statutes. If this
is not correct I would be pleased to learn this. Now the issue of hereditary
knighthood vs. personal (did you mean baronets?) by analogy to the
Portuguese usage - orders of knighthood are always personal awards and not
hereditary and knights are always commoners - while in Portugal knights
might be commoners or noble (in a system I don't yet fully understand).
Similarly for Sweden, where the knightly orders are restricted basically to
foreigners I was not aware of any coronet that was associated with this or
permitted or prohibited by the statutes of the order. The knioghtly orders
in Sweden also do not appear to confer Swedish nobility - and the example I
am most familiar with would be the assumption of arms by Pres. Lech Walesa
with the assistance of the late Swedish Royal Librarian Heymowski -where he
used a simple torse and an esquire's helm - as he was neither a Polish or a
Swedish noble - although as President of Poland the use of a crest 'of
Poland' was a very significant distinction. Jan Bohme outlined this issue
well. Again if the matter of coronets is covered in the statutes of the
Swedish orders in any positive way, I would be interested to learn this. And
again does Sweden have a hereditary knighthood at all - the untitled noble
is also really a knight of sorts, that seems to be the common usage and
unlike Germany or Austria where there was a rank of untitled nobility of
Ritter - I have not run across this with respect to Sweden, so that it would
seem that whatever additional heraldic privileges Swedish knights of various
orders of merit might might or might not have would always be personal
rather than hereditary.
Using one further example - that of Belgium - there is a coronet that is
typically used by the hereditary knights the chevalier or ridder, but these
are not members of any order but rather hereditary titled nobles. The
chevaliers of the Belgian orders do not appear to gain any heraldic
privileges (beyond of course suspending the order) and I had understood that
there was no concession of nobility that came in a statutory way with these
awards. In this case I would be please dif you could cite the statutes of
the orders that refer to the use of coronets of any sort by the recipients
of these orders of merit - after all in Belgium there was not even any
regulation of the use of a coronet by the untitled nobility and yet Belgian
usage appears to informally tolerate the assumption and usage of a golden
jeweled crest coronet of three leaves and two pearls by the untitled
nobility - although there is no apparent recogition of this in any
regulations and although noble arms are otherwise protected and regulated.
I hersitate to ask about your own native Denmark, as this is your area of
expertise - but on the basis that there are no dumb questions, I hope you
will indulge my curiosity. In suggesting an analogy to Portugal's heraldic
concessions to hereditary vs. personal knighthood - I was surprised to see
you mention Denmark as an example where this is regulated by statute. I was
not aware that Denmark had any form of hereditary knighthood at all. Beyond
the untitled nobility who in the generic continental sense of knighthood are
knights of a sort the lowest rank of titled nobility is analogous to the
rank of baron. The Danish orders of merit do not of course confer any sense
of personal or hereditary nobility and the recipients of Danish orders
remain commoners in every sense. The last concession of nobility in Denmark,
I thought, was more than 150 years ago. The issue of statutory regulation of
heraldic appurtenances of knighthood (personal - because of course unlike
Portugal Denmark does nto appear to have a hereditary rank of knight) is
therefore of great interest. What do the Danish statutes of orders say about
the use of coronets of any sort by knights of any sort. I would have
thought, on face value they would have been silent, but having raised the
comparison I hope you will respond to these questions.
The difficulty I think is that it is easy to confuse the distinction between
'commoner knighthood' (often personal but sometimes hereditary) and 'noble
knighthood' (sometimes personal but often hereditary) and between the
courtesy chevalier accorded to the orders of merit in those countries such
as Denmark where orders of merit (even those of great prestige) are merely
decorations conferring precedence but no nobility from the orders that at
one time were personally or hereditarily ennobling such as some of the
Tsarist Russian ones or some of the Southern european ones. Apples and
oranges.
Now in all of this, I may be wrong and if I have come to incorrect
conclusions I would expect that you gently correct these. You are after all
the ICOC expert on Scandinavian orders, decorations, medals and awards and a
member of some of the most respected heraldic organizations and I feel
rather awkward posing these questions so bluntly.
Kind regards, George Lucki
PS - I am again forming the impression that some of the questions posed on
the forum are not really motivated by a thirst for knowledge or as genuine
scholarly inquiry but are intended as tools for personal attacks - that is
that in the guise of meritorious discussion the motives are personal and the
points made intended to be ad hominem. I may be wrong in imputing such
motives, but I would like to see our discussions return to the merits and
away from the animosities.
Don Aitken
wrote:
>In article <0b05d2d...@south-frm.demon.co.uk>, Tim Powys-Lybbe says...
>>
>>In message of 11 Aug, Francois R. Velde <ve...@heraldicanospam.invalid>
>>wrote:
>>
>>> In medio rec.heraldry aperuit jan....@sh.se (Jan B?hme) os suum:
>>> >Guy Stair Sainty <g...@sainty.org> wrote in message
>>> >news:<cfbv2...@drn.newsguy.com>...
>>> >> In article <p2bSc.44$S55.24@clgrps12>, George Lucki says...
>>> >> [Kind Hearts and Coronets]
>>> >>
>>> >> And a very entertainting evening you will have; of course it is
>>> >> strange that a ducal title can apparently descend through the
>>> >> female line,
>>> >
>>> >Strange in practice, of course. But it is entirely within the power
>>> >of the Sovereign to confer a dukedom with that kind of remainder. I
>>> >would even imagine that the Sovereign can create a dukedom that is
>>> >exclusively inherited through the female line, if she is so disposed.
>>>
>>> "Letters patent creating a peerage must specify the patentee, the
>>> name of the dignity and its limitation to future heirs of the
>>> patentee. The limitation must be one known to the law. The rule in
>>> England is a limitation to heirs male of the body with an occasional
>>> addition of special remainders to bring in the daughters and their
>>> issue, brothers, nephews, and collaterals, but ultimately the descent
>>> is always fixed in an heir male line." (Halsbury's Laws of England,
>>> vol 35 para 924).
>>
>>One advantage of England not having a constitution is that we don't
>>have to pay attention to such pronouncements.
>
>Halsbury's pronouncement would indeed guide the House of Lords in admitting
>a peerage, but could not limit the Crown's prerogative - as I have
>already noted here, since hereditary peers no longer enjoy the right to
>a seat in parliament, it is likely that the question of a remainder would
>not come before it unless there was a succession dispute which warranted
>the decision of the Committee for Privileges. If, indeed, the Crown
>decided to recommence the practice of creating hereditary peerages, but
>in a modernist spirit decided that there should be no preference for males
>over females but simple primogeniture, I wonder what would be the views of
>a the Committee for Privileges if the first son but second child then
>challenged the succession of his elder sister?
Halsbury, of course, as the title says, describes the Laws of
*England*. There are several Scottish dukedoms limited to descend with
a pre-existing earldom which itself descends to heirs-general, or even
"heirs whatsoever". I posted the remainders of the Scottish dukedoms
on ATR last year: see
<http://www.google.com/groups?selm=cup9dvstgnijjk4imgk62j5qv9rj59cnpc%404ax.com>
--
Don Aitken
Mail to the addresses given in the headers is no longer being
read. To mail me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com".
Dr
Using one further example - that of Belgium - there is a coronet that
is
typically used by the hereditary knights the chevalier or ridder, but
these
are not members of any order but rather hereditary titled nobles. The
chevaliers of the Belgian orders do not appear to gain any heraldic
privileges (beyond of course suspending the order) and I had
understood that
there was no concession of nobility that came in a statutory way with
these
awards. In this case I would be please dif you could cite the statutes
of
the orders that refer to the use of coronets of any sort by the
recipients
of these orders of merit - after all in Belgium there was not even any
regulation of the use of a coronet by the untitled nobility and yet
Belgian
usage appears to informally tolerate the assumption and usage of a
golden
jeweled crest coronet of three leaves and two pearls by the untitled
nobility - although there is no apparent recogition of this in any
regulations and although noble arms are otherwise protected and
regulated.
Actually the part about Sweden is not the truth:
In Swedish nobility (and the Riddarhuset often translated as House of
Nobility but in direct translation Riddare = Knight huset = House)
there are hereditary knighthoods families known as Kommendatörsätten
(Commanders families) and they are listed as such and the title is
inheritable!
Some of the Knight orders give en nobling per automatic.
One of them is Serafimorden:
IIRC In the statut of the order and Kings decrees (not revoked) it
says.
The new knight of The Order of Serafim shell recive CoA if He/She has
non.
The first name of the knight/Dame shell not be used anymore and he
will be known as Herr/Dame XXXX (afthername)
The arms of the knight/Dame shell be painted on the metal and when
heshe die they shell be put in Serafimorden church (do not recall
church name).
The Serafmoreden is still avarded.
"PS - I am again forming the impression that some of the questions
posed on
> the forum are not really motivated by a thirst for knowledge or as genuine
> scholarly inquiry but are intended as tools for personal attacks - that is
> that in the guise of meritorious discussion the motives are personal and the
> points made intended to be ad hominem. I may be wrong in imputing such
> motives, but I would like to see our discussions return to the merits and
> away from the animosities."
Way should Peter conduct personal attacks?
All he statet ware facts!
Rgds.
Dr
I am wondering how is it now after the new regulations which took
power after juny 2003. What are the situation now?
Kind regards
Oliver
"Gerard Michon" <g.mi...@delete.up.to.dash-att.net> wrote in message news:<SFLSc.200950$OB3.1...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
George Lucki
> In article <%LuSc.1558$jZ5.583@clgrps13>, George Lucki says...
> >
> >"Peter Kurrild-Klitgaard" <kur...@politik.dk> wrote in message
> >news:763bd544.04081...@posting.google.com...
> >> pritch...@hotmail.com (David Pritchard) wrote in message
> >news:<47d40f92.0408...@posting.google.com>...
> >first question would be how does Dom Duarte define the nature of the
> >knighthood that is conferred by Vila Vicosa?
>
> This was not a body that existed under the Monarchy; it was instituted by
> Dom Duarte's father in imitation of the Spanish Diputacion de las
Grandezasy
> Titulos, and was designed to remove him from dealing with the nitty-gritty
> of the regulation of Portuguese titles, particuarly the vexed question of
> successions - with many claimants to renewals of Portuguese titles that
had
> been created for 1, 2 or 3 lives. Dom Duarte told me that he intended to
> reform this somehow, and that for some reason that he did not make
entirely
> clear, he was dissastisfied with its workings. I have the impression that
> possibly his present advisers would like perhaps to take control of this
> process, but I am not sure of this.
>
That analogy seems to fit braodly. Thanks. Another poster had quoted Dom
Duarte that "This new association will call itself the Institute of the
Portuguese Nobility (IPN) and will be an unique entity with ompetence for
applying the norms and regulations approved to maintain the historical
memory of the nobiliary and honorífic distinctions, dignities and forms of
address according to the Portuguese Tradition." So it might seem that we are
dealing with a set of traditional practices approved by Dom Duarte rather
than specific statutes. An earlier part of the quote suggested that Dom
Duarte was looking to representatives of the old nobility to sit in themake
up the IPN and to work closely with the Association of Portuguese Nobility.
Guy, were you thinking of one of these groups as perhaps wanting to take
charge of the process?
Kind regards, George Lucki
Jan B?hme
> Nyligen,yr 2003, riksdagen revoked all rights of riddarhusets members.
No, that is not quite what they did. They severed the ties between
Riddarhuset (the House of Nobility) and the Government, such that the
Government no longer have any direct obligations or rights vis-à-vis
the House of Nobility. Thus, from now on, the House of Nobility can
change it own statutes without the government countersigning them, as
they are no longer form part of the Statute Book, and the in some
arcane matters, as was - theoretically - the case before. (I actually
do not think that this function - it was established in 1866, folowing
the abolition of the Estate Parliament - was ever excercised.)
In addition, the Letter of Privilege for the nobility of 1723 is no
longer law. However, _other_ laws that can be construed as giving the
nobility special privileges, such as the ban in the current name law
of 1983 on adopting new family names beginning in "von" "af" or "de",
or, for that matter, the law of 1762 on heraldic privileges, are left
intact.
It is important to realise that this does by no means mean that the
Parliament has abolished the Swedish Nobility as such. It remains,
together with its statutes, officially recognised as an independent
subject of law.
It should also be pointed out that, according to the judgement of the
House of Nobility itself, all of the privileges mentioned in the
Letter of 1723 are by today either useless, impossible to excercise,
or since long extended to all citizens by other statutes. The opinion
of the Erik Tersmeden, Chief Justice a Stockholm Court of Appeals
(Svea Hovrätt) and on one of the leading legal experts of the House,
on the matter can be consulted (in Swedish, though) at
http://www.riddarhuset.se/jsp/admin/archive/sbdocarchive/Adelns_offrstatus.pdf
> It apears that rulles on helmets and cornets are no longer valid (if
> all privileges are revoced, but I suspect that even the right of open
> helmet and cornet are revocet to/ even if not exctly specifiend in the
> new law.
As follows from the above, they are not. It was only a specific set of
privileges, explicitely called "privileges", that was explicitely
called "privileges", and the existence of th Swedish House of Nobility
as an independent subject of law has _not_ changed.
Thus, the current changes in the relation between the government and
the House of Nobility do not in any way affect which heralic displays
that are permitted for different individuals.
> Bronze is a metal not a tinkture as is Or and Argent,
Oliver, "tincture" is a collective word for both metals, colours and
furs. In English and French as well as in Swedish.
>it is not in the
> clasical heraldry but if we make new rulles then...
If we make new rules, then of course we can change anything we want.
But even _if_ "bronze were allowed as a tincture, I am still of the
firm opinion that it would be unsuitable to differentiate a coronet by
changing the tincture from or to bronze. The difference wouldn't be
appreciable enough.
Jan Böhme
Jan B?hme
> Similarly for Sweden, where the knightly orders are restricted basically to
> foreigners
Not yet. The _conferment_ of knightly orders have, with the exception
of our equivalent to the Garter - the Order of the Seraphim - been
restricted to foreigners since 1975, but there is still a substantial
number of old ladies and gentlemen who are members. For instance, my
father is a knight of the Order of the North Star, and likely to be
around for still another decade, if the lifespans of his parents and
older siblings is anything to go by.
> I was not aware of any coronet that was associated with this or
> permitted or prohibited by the statutes of the order.
Neither am I. Not even for the Order of the Seraphim.
> The knightly orders
> in Sweden also do not appear to confer Swedish nobility
Definitely not. Although the official name of the nobility as a
corporation is "Ridderskapet och adeln" (the knights and the nobility)
the knights of this or that knightly order are not _that_ kind of
knights. Nor even the knights of the Order of the Seraphim - although
these at least get a nice coat-of-arms at the expense of the
Government. The only way of becoming a real Swedish noble is to obtain
introduction to the Swedish House of Nobility, and the Order of the
Seraphim most definitely doesn't cut it with them.
> Again if the matter of coronets is covered in the statutes of the
> Swedish orders in any positive way, I would be interested to learn this.
Again, I'm pretty certain it doesn't.
Jan Böhme
George Lucki
> "George Lucki" <cps...@attglobal.net> wrote in message
news:<CvOSc.8230$S55.7170@clgrps12>...
>
> > Similarly for Sweden, where the knightly orders are restricted basically
to
> > foreigners
>
> Not yet. The _conferment_ of knightly orders have, with the exception
> of our equivalent to the Garter - the Order of the Seraphim - been
> restricted to foreigners since 1975, but there is still a substantial
> number of old ladies and gentlemen who are members. For instance, my
> father is a knight of the Order of the North Star, and likely to be
> around for still another decade, if the lifespans of his parents and
> older siblings is anything to go by.
Thanks. I was thinking of current awards only. May there continue to be
Swedish knights for many more years to come!
The Swedish innovation of restricting current awards to foreigners and in
some cases also to members of the Royal family seems a curious compromise.
While Ireland an Switzerland have no orders, Sweden does, but not for its
own citizens any more. this creates two difficulties - one it eliminates the
possibility of recognizing services to the nation in this relatively
inexpensive and quite symbolic way, and it will mean that decorations worn
by Swedes (at the fewer occasions where there is such cause) will
increasingly be either foreign awards or the 'informal' awards of social
bodies.
I hope this innovation is someday reversed.
Kind regards, George Lucki
Guy Stair Sainty
Not only that it has meant that there are a plethora of self-styled Orders
current, and even approved by the Swedish Military to be worn including
(amazingly) the Templars and Lazarus!
I believe that the rather peculiar Masonic Order of Charles XII can still
be awarded to Swedes, if award is the right word.
Jan B?hme
> Not only that it has meant that there are a plethora of self-styled Orders
> current, and even approved by the Swedish Military to be worn including
> (amazingly) the Templars and Lazarus!
Well, the Swedish military is pretty lax in such matters, and that a
certain decoration is allowed with the dinner uniform doesn't really
mean that it is officially approved in any more substantial way. If a
higher officer - certainly a ranking general - has a gong that he
wants to wear, he can normally get it approved.
> I believe that the rather peculiar Masonic Order of Charles XII can still
> be awarded to Swedes, if award is the right word.
Order of Charles _XIII_. Charles XII, the frugal warrior king, had no
particular affectation for freemasons - nor, for that matter, for any
kind of mumbo-jumbo.
Yes, it can be awarded to Swedes, but it isn't State Award.
Jan Böhme
Dr
It was confusing for me about that new law!
I was joking on bronze coronet.
MVH
jan....@sh.se (Jan B?hme) wrote in message news:<5cbdad47.04081...@posting.google.com>...
Jan B?hme
> "Jan B?hme" <jan....@sh.se> wrote in message
> news:5cbdad47.04081...@posting.google.com...
> > "George Lucki" <cps...@attglobal.net> wrote in message
> news:<CvOSc.8230$S55.7170@clgrps12>...
> >
> > > Similarly for Sweden, where the knightly orders are restricted basically
> to
> > > foreigners
> >
> > Not yet. The _conferment_ of knightly orders have, with the exception
> > of our equivalent to the Garter - the Order of the Seraphim - been
> > restricted to foreigners since 1975, but there is still a substantial
> > number of old ladies and gentlemen who are members. For instance, my
> > father is a knight of the Order of the North Star, and likely to be
> > around for still another decade, if the lifespans of his parents and
> > older siblings is anything to go by.
>
> Thanks. I was thinking of current awards only. May there continue to be
> Swedish knights for many more years to come!
What is dying out now are the higher ranks, that normally were awarded
later in life, I don't think there is a single Knight Commander of the
Grand Cross alive of any Swedish order now, and the Knight Commanders
ar as few as they are ancient. An occasional "KNO", "KVO" or "KSO"
still plops up in the obituaries of nonagenarians, though.
>
> The Swedish innovation of restricting current awards to foreigners and in
> some cases also to members of the Royal family seems a curious compromise.
It was considered entirely inevitable to retain the conferment of
orders to foreigners at the time, and this practice has never been put
into public question. The idea was that dealing out awards to
foreigners was an accepted integral part of, for instance, state
visits, that awards were not only a cheap way of recognising
foreigners who had done some service to the country, but one of the
few ways that existed, and that there was no point in not conferring
Swedish awards to citizens of countries that hadn't abolished their
own.
(In practice I suspect that the Foreign Office insisted at least in
part because that would be a good way to ensure that at least its
officials continued to be properly decorated. As we all know, it is
the _exchange_ of awards that characterize state visits.)
> While Ireland an Switzerland have no orders, Sweden does, but not for its
> own citizens any more. this creates two difficulties - one it eliminates the
> possibility of recognizing services to the nation in this relatively
> inexpensive and quite symbolic way, and it will mean that decorations worn
> by Swedes (at the fewer occasions where there is such cause) will
> increasingly be either foreign awards or the 'informal' awards of social
> bodies.
Interesting enough, it is only Orders that can not be awarded. There
are still a couple of official medals of high prestige that are
awared, for example the Litteris et Artibus, which works as some kind
of equivalent of the OBE for achievements in literature or the fina
arts.
But there are clear differences between these medals and the orders.
For one thing, the medals don't come with a postnominal - even though
the Swedish order postnominals are no real postnominals in the British
sense. For example, it would be bizarre up to the point of actual
incorrectness to refer to my father as "Lennart Böhme, RNO" in running
text. The RNO would appear in official biographies and suchlike, but
then the entry would begin by "Böhme, Lennart. RNO. Born at Alfta...".
If the subject possessed more than one gong, it would look like
"Ericson, Stig H:son. KMO, StKSO, KNO". (The "KMO" is the postnominal
for the Order of the Serahpim, whose official name actually is
"Kunglig Majestäts Orden" - The Order of his/her Royal Majesty." They
just might appear à l'anglaise, separated from the name by a comma, in
very pretentious presentations, for example when a stuffy association
lists its prestigious Board for public information. And in obituaries.
But otherwise they are not normally used.
> I hope this innovation is someday reversed.
The practical use for the decorations has declined with the declining
use of formal evening wear, which is one reason that taking them up
might seem a bit unnecessary. But it is true that, when Sweden proudly
abolished the conferment of these awards to its citizens, the country
expected itself to be at the front of modernity, and that other,
slightly more backward, countries would soon follow suit and abolish
these outdated and unequal forms of awards. However, this has not
happened, which should give some food for thought.
My main argument that the abolition of the awards was silly has
nothing to to with piety to one's traditions or any kind of
starry-eyedromanticism, but is practical and hard-nosed to the point
of cynicism:
Such awards are _innocous_ ways of giving people a pat of the back
-they have no other consequence for anyone than that the recipient
obtains a reasonably pretty piece of jewelry and the possibility to
use three capital letters after his name (at the peril of being
ridiculed if this is done where it isn't expected).
This is an ideal form of award when a government wants to award _the
loyal incompetence_ - which any government will want to, and almost
have to, award now and then - this is a fact of political life. What
has happened in Sweden is that the loyal incompetence, in the absence
of government awards, instead must be awarded with _another_ important
office, when it has demonstrated both its loyalty and its incompetence
in the first. How much better for everyone if such people instead
could be made Knight Commanders - or Knight Commanders of the Grand
Cross, if need be - and put to work at their actual level of
competence!
And of course, a lot of true excellence and competence has to be
similarly awarded for this to work. A dedicated Order of the Golden
Boot, with the motto "Stultus sed Fidelis", would not at all serve its
purpose, unfortunately.
Jan Böhme
Jan B?hme
> Thus, from now on, the House of Nobility can
> change it own statutes without the government countersigning them, as
> they are no longer form part of the Statute Book, and the in some
> arcane matters, as was - theoretically - the case before.
A line was lost between "the" and "in" om line 3 in the sentence
qouted above. The entire sentence should run thus:
"Thus, from now on, the House of Nobility can change it own statutes
without the government countersigning them, as they are no longer form
part of the Statute Book, and the ***Government does not serve as
instance of appeal to he Direction of the House*** in some arcane
matters, as was - theoretically - the case before.
Sorry!
Jan Böhme
Peter Kurrild-Klitgaard
> news:763bd544.04081...@posting.google.com...
> > pritch...@hotmail.com (David Pritchard) wrote in message
> news:<47d40f92.04081...@posting.google.com>...
> And is there a statutory
> > basis for the modern use of such coronets in Portugese heraldry? (as
> > there is for coronets in, say, British, Danish, Belgian, Swedish
> > heraldry, etc.)
> >
>
> Peter,
>
> I'm not sure I follow your question in terms of the 'statutory basis' for
> such (that is specifically knightly) coronets - do you mean in the statutes
> of the order of Vila Vicosa or in the statutes of modern Portuguese Law.
I meant whether there are (or have been) any explicit acts (laws,
warrants, resolutions, statutes, etc.) explicitly defining the
heraldic nature of this particular coronet, which Lindgren and
Pritchard claim. In a number of European countries (at least those
that I know of) the coronets reserved by the monarchs (or the
appropriate heraldic authorities) for exclusive use by various groups
(e.g. grades within the nobility) have been identified as such
explicitly in written directives. Some times this has been
exemplified in the case of statutes of orders of knighthood (e.g. the
Danish Order of the Elephant), some times explicitly stated in royal
warrants or resolutions in the case of the creation of particular
ranks/titles (e.g. in England, Denmark, Italy), some times in larger
over-hauls of these by monarchs (e.g. France), some times by the
delegated authorities (e.g. Lyon Court's introduction
of/formalizations of the use of chapeaus, mural coronets, etc.). Some
times these coronets have had a prior usage, merely by custom and
without any statutory basis, but often (if not always) they have later
on been codified (e.g. when major revisions have taken place). (Those
interested in such matters might consult the excellent works by such
distinguished armorists as D'Arcy Boulton, who has been working on the
historical evolution of heraldic coronets, or Nils Bartholdy who has
analyzed how the nature of French helmets/coronets influenced those of
other countries. I am in my university office right now and do not
have the exact sources at hand.) The "big" point is this: Rarely, if
ever, are these coronets without any "definition" vis-a-vis each
other.
So, to repeat and clarify: The golden coronet claimed by Lindgren and
Pritchard as being a coronet appropriate for a Portugese knight (and
let us just leave the whole issue of reigning monarchs versus heads of
formerly reigning houses aside), has that ever been formally defined
(by the Portugese monarchs of their delegated authorities)? If it has
not, where does it then come from? (Is it simply by custom? If so,
when did it evolve? Was it widely used? Generally used? etc.)
> If it is the former - I would be interested to learn this myself - I don;t
> have access to these statutes and portuguese heraldry is poorly covered in
> standard references. As you are a member of AIH and ICOC would you be ble to
> access this information from your international colleagues - it is
> disappointing when even the local university research library does not have
> this info available.
>
> If it is the latter I would suspect that modern protuguese law does not
> provide for the use of nobillary or chivalric coronets for any of the
> dynastic orders.
That would surprise me to. (And that was not what I asked.)
> While it appears that Dom Duarte is accorded some de facto
> recognition in Portugal, it is after all a republic and the orders of St.
> Isabel and Vila Vicosa are not among the national orders. I believe that the
> question might better be put in reference to older practices, whether
> stutaory or customary
Exactly.
> and I understand the Portuguese crown had regulated
> heraldry from early times and in somewhat later times both dispensed arms
> and titles liberally as a way of encouraging foreign service and as a source
> of taxation rvenue. I am not at all familiar with the specifics of this
Neither am I, and hence my question.
> but
> would suggest that the answer to such questions would best be obtained from
> Dom Duarte.
No doubt. However, since this discussion arose at rec.heraldry, and
since the use of such coronets have been championed by two
contributors of which at least one displays such a coronet in public,
I thought it would be easier to consult them directly.
> There was a Council of Nobility that had served at the Duke's
> pleasure and was charged with overseeing such matters since the end of WW
> II, but I understand that it has been recently abolished so that presumably
> whatever powers were delegated to it have reverted to the duke or to any
> successor body he has established. I understand that dom duarte would likely
> maintain that heraldic concessions of any sort relating to any dignity he
> awards are within his purview as head of the Royal House.
>
> The alternative examples you gave of Britain, Denmark, Sweden, and Belgium
> are in my view a matter of comparing apples and oranges (and perhaps also
> not correct, although I will leave this question with you as the one most
> knowledgable here). These countries are all ones in which there is both a
> reigning monarch and the knightly orders of merit are within the pantheon of
> national orders.
Clearly you misunderstood my question (which may or may not be my
mistake). My point was that in _these_ particular countries (and
others) there have been explicit decisions regulating the use of
coronets of rank in heraldry. My question was: Has the same not been
the case in Portugal?
> The analogy between the countries you cited and the issues
> of heraldic privileges in herediatry and non-hereditary knighthood are also,
> I believe misunderstood - and again comparing apples and oranges.
[Most of the following is based in another misunderstanding of what I
wrote. I wrote: "And is there a statutory basis for the modern use of
such coronets in Portugese heraldry? (as there is for coronets in,
say, British, Danish, Belgian, Swedish heraldry, etc.)". I did not
say that there were _such_ (hereditary knights') coronets in these
countries, but referring to the fact that there in these countries
have been explicit decisions regarding the nature of various coronets
in heraldry.]
> That said when it comes to Britain I was not aware of any statuatory
> regulation of knightly coronets - in fact there is no use of a knightly
> coronet in any of the British realms.
I agree--and that is not what I wrote.
> There is a distinctive helm (except
> for VOSJ in England) but even here I had understood that the regulations
> concerning the use f the helm were within the organic law of arms rather
> than in the stautues of the orders or within the national statutes. If this
> is not correct I would be pleased to learn this. Now the issue of hereditary
> knighthood vs. personal (did you mean baronets?)
Not necessarily. I referred, e.g., to the Italian concept of
"hereditary knight" (whose coronet is placed in the same column in
Neubecker's book as the one mentioned by Pritchard).
> by analogy to the
> Portuguese usage - orders of knighthood are always personal awards and not
> hereditary and knights are always commoners
This is not generally true; it would only be the case in those
particular countries where there have not been any noble status
connected to membership of particular orders, and that certainly is
not and have not been the case (as you also seem to acknowledge
further down in your posting). The British question of whether
knights are nobles or not is one issue (and one which i shall not
delve into, since it would seem to me to be largely a terminological
issue), but at least in Spain to this day the Order of Isabella the
Catholic carries with it personal nobility, as does the Order of the
Elephant and the Grand Cross of the Dannebrog in Denmark.
Historically this was also the case with the Order of San Lodovico in
Parma, St. George of the Reunion in The Two Sicilies and St. Anna in
Russia (where, IIRC, certain grades even conferred hereditary
nobility). I am sure there are numerous other examples, but again I
am not near my books right now.
> - while in Portugal knights
> might be commoners or noble (in a system I don't yet fully understand).
>
> Similarly for Sweden, where the knightly orders are restricted basically to
> foreigners I was not aware of any coronet that was associated with this or
> permitted or prohibited by the statutes of the order.
Again, this is a result of you misunderstanding what I wrote; I have
not said that there was a particular coronet for members of the
Swedish orders (although I know of at least one example of someone
being a non-noble who on his stall-plate as a knight of the Seraphim
was accorded a coronet corresponding to that of an untitled nobleman).
> The knioghtly orders
> in Sweden also do not appear to confer Swedish nobility - and the example I
> am most familiar with would be the assumption of arms by Pres. Lech Walesa
> with the assistance of the late Swedish Royal Librarian Heymowski -where he
> used a simple torse and an esquire's helm - as he was neither a Polish or a
> Swedish noble - although as President of Poland the use of a crest 'of
> Poland' was a very significant distinction. Jan Bohme outlined this issue
> well. Again if the matter of coronets is covered in the statutes of the
> Swedish orders in any positive way, I would be interested to learn this. And
> again does Sweden have a hereditary knighthood at all - the untitled noble
> is also really a knight of sorts, that seems to be the common usage and
> unlike Germany or Austria where there was a rank of untitled nobility of
> Ritter - I have not run across this with respect to Sweden, so that it would
> seem that whatever additional heraldic privileges Swedish knights of various
> orders of merit might might or might not have would always be personal
> rather than hereditary.
That is certainly true today--yet again: I have not said it was
otherwise.
> Using one further example - that of Belgium - there is a coronet that is
> typically used by the hereditary knights the chevalier or ridder, but these
> are not members of any order but rather hereditary titled nobles. The
> chevaliers of the Belgian orders do not appear to gain any heraldic
> privileges (beyond of course suspending the order) and I had understood that
> there was no concession of nobility that came in a statutory way with these
> awards. In this case I would be please dif you could cite the statutes of
> the orders that refer to the use of coronets of any sort by the recipients
> of these orders of merit - after all in Belgium there was not even any
> regulation of the use of a coronet by the untitled nobility and yet Belgian
> usage appears to informally tolerate the assumption and usage of a golden
> jeweled crest coronet of three leaves and two pearls by the untitled
> nobility - although there is no apparent recogition of this in any
> regulations and although noble arms are otherwise protected and regulated.
Again ... ;-)
> I hersitate to ask about your own native Denmark, as this is your area of
> expertise - but on the basis that there are no dumb questions, I hope you
> will indulge my curiosity. In suggesting an analogy to Portugal's heraldic
> concessions to hereditary vs. personal knighthood - I was surprised to see
> you mention Denmark as an example where this is regulated by statute.
I did not. I suggested that Denmark has had a statutory basis
(through various sources) for distinguishing between different
coronets (and this, by the way, is still applied, at least for the
most part, in the case of the royal orders).
> I was
> not aware that Denmark had any form of hereditary knighthood at all.
No; it does not. Again ... ;-)
> Beyond
> the untitled nobility who in the generic continental sense of knighthood are
> knights of a sort the lowest rank of titled nobility is analogous to the
> rank of baron.
In fact, it (the lowest titled nobility) _is_ baron.
> The Danish orders of merit do not of course confer any sense
> of personal or hereditary nobility and the recipients of Danish orders
> remain commoners in every sense.
Not correct. Knights of the Order of the Elephant have precedence in
Class I of the Danish Order of Precedence; Knights Grand Cross of the
Dannebrog have precedence in Class II. According to a Royal
Resolution of 1808 (confirmed with the latest major over-haul of the
Order of Precedence in 1953, and to this day printed annually in the
Government's "Royal Court & State Almanach" and, I think, at the
government's website) members of the first three classes are to be and
to be held as nobles, for themselves and their descendants in the
first generation. Through a number of decrees, etc., in the late 17th
century those who enjoy personal nobility have the right to use the
helmet of the untitled hereditary nobility, and this helmet has in
recent years been accorded to at least three GC of the D (who were not
otherwise nobles). It is a matter of interpretation whether the
coronet reserved for untitled (hereditary) noblemen could also be used
by those with only personal nobility (qua, e.g., a knighthood); it is
my opinion that they may, and there has certainly been a certain
customary basis for this. Furthermore, an explicit royal decree,
combined with illustrations in the written statutes of the Order of
the Elephant, gave knights of this order (and privy councillors--but
that is a different story) the right to use a baronial coronet, even
if they were not barons; to my knowledge this has never been done,
though.
Various titles/pre-fixes have also been accorded to those who have a
place in the Order of Precedence, more or less corresponding to "The
Honourable", "The Right Honourable", etc.; the only of these which is
still in use is "His Excellency" for those in Class I; I know for a
fact that this is still used for Knights of the Elephant who have no
higher titles.
(I have mentioned this several times before here at rec.heraldry and I
understand that there might be an appendix on this issue forthcoming
in the exciting new "Burke's Orders of Chivalry" ... ;-)
> The last concession of nobility in Denmark,
> I thought, was more than 150 years ago.
Not correct--although it seems as long ago ...;-) Disregarding the
various creations of counts of Rosenborg, the last ennoblement was in
1912 (the naturalization of the family Castonier), while the last
ennoblement all anew (so to speak) was in 1906 (the Koefoed family).
> The issue of statutory regulation of
> heraldic appurtenances of knighthood (personal - because of course unlike
> Portugal Denmark does nto appear to have a hereditary rank of knight) is
> therefore of great interest. What do the Danish statutes of orders say about
> the use of coronets of any sort by knights of any sort.
With the exception of the schemes illustrating the use of a baronial
coronet for knights of the Elephant, the statutes themselves say
relatively little about the heraldry of the knights. The statutory
basis for what coronets are to be used by whom is instead found in
various decrees, memos, etc., mostly from the period 1670-93, but with
some subsequent changes in the exact composition of, e.g., the various
classes.
> I would have
> thought, on face value they would have been silent, but having raised the
> comparison I hope you will respond to these questions.
>
> The difficulty I think is that it is easy to confuse the distinction between
> 'commoner knighthood' (often personal but sometimes hereditary) and 'noble
> knighthood' (sometimes personal but often hereditary) and between the
> courtesy chevalier accorded to the orders of merit in those countries such
> as Denmark where orders of merit (even those of great prestige) are merely
> decorations conferring precedence but no nobility from the orders that at
> one time were personally or hereditarily ennobling such as some of the
> Tsarist Russian ones or some of the Southern european ones. Apples and
> oranges.
Again ... ;-)
> Now in all of this, I may be wrong and if I have come to incorrect
> conclusions I would expect that you gently correct these. You are after all
> the ICOC expert on Scandinavian orders, decorations, medals and awards and a
> member of some of the most respected heraldic organizations and I feel
> rather awkward posing these questions so bluntly.
You should not be. None of us (most notably myself) would ever have
become any wiser if we never asked questions, and yours certainly are
very sensible (even if you misunderstood what I wrote).
> Kind regards, George Lucki
>
> PS - I am again forming the impression that some of the questions posed on
> the forum are not really motivated by a thirst for knowledge or as genuine
> scholarly inquiry but are intended as tools for personal attacks - that is
> that in the guise of meritorious discussion the motives are personal and the
> points made intended to be ad hominem. I may be wrong in imputing such
> motives, but I would like to see our discussions return to the merits and
> away from the animosities.
If you are referring to me, then I can say that in this matter, my
only concern is that those who make any claims on their own behalf
should be able to answer what they base such claims in. This is as
true for coronets, as it is with other honorifics, orders of chivalry,
academic degrees or institutional affiliations. Is that too much to
ask?
Best wishes,
Peter Kurrild-Klitgaard
George Lucki
.
>
> It was considered entirely inevitable to retain the conferment of
> orders to foreigners at the time, and this practice has never been put
> into public question. The idea was that dealing out awards to
> foreigners was an accepted integral part of, for instance, state
> visits, that awards were not only a cheap way of recognising
> foreigners who had done some service to the country, but one of the
> few ways that existed, and that there was no point in not conferring
> Swedish awards to citizens of countries that hadn't abolished their
> own.
>
> (In practice I suspect that the Foreign Office insisted at least in
> part because that would be a good way to ensure that at least its
> officials continued to be properly decorated. As we all know, it is
> the _exchange_ of awards that characterize state visits.)
I would not underestimate this one. :) Senior foreign service officers may
not always achieve the foreign policy objectives of their government but
they inevitably acquire some "hardware" for themselves.
> The practical use for the decorations has declined with the declining
> use of formal evening wear, which is one reason that taking them up
> might seem a bit unnecessary. But it is true that, when Sweden proudly
> abolished the conferment of these awards to its citizens, the country
> expected itself to be at the front of modernity, and that other,
> slightly more backward, countries would soon follow suit and abolish
> these outdated and unequal forms of awards. However, this has not
> happened, which should give some food for thought.
I have not understood how such awards are incompatible with modern
democracy, any more that the traditions of parliaments and courts.
>
> My main argument that the abolition of the awards was silly has
> nothing to to with piety to one's traditions or any kind of
> starry-eyedromanticism, but is practical and hard-nosed to the point
> of cynicism:
>
> Such awards are _innocous_ ways of giving people a pat of the back
> -they have no other consequence for anyone than that the recipient
> obtains a reasonably pretty piece of jewelry and the possibility to
> use three capital letters after his name (at the peril of being
> ridiculed if this is done where it isn't expected).
>
> This is an ideal form of award when a government wants to award _the
> loyal incompetence_ - which any government will want to, and almost
> have to, award now and then - this is a fact of political life. What
> has happened in Sweden is that the loyal incompetence, in the absence
> of government awards, instead must be awarded with _another_ important
> office, when it has demonstrated both its loyalty and its incompetence
> in the first. How much better for everyone if such people instead
> could be made Knight Commanders - or Knight Commanders of the Grand
> Cross, if need be - and put to work at their actual level of
> competence!
chuckle. chuckle. (unfortunately recipients of awards might not be pensioned
off but seek further promotion to upgarde their KXYZ to a KCXYZ or even a
KGCXYZ). Such is human nature. I do think such awards might also be made to
the loyal competetent and this would be their virtue.
>
> And of course, a lot of true excellence and competence has to be
> similarly awarded for this to work. A dedicated Order of the Golden
> Boot, with the motto "Stultus sed Fidelis", would not at all serve its
> purpose, unfortunately.
chuckle. chuckle.
Kind regards, George Lucki
>
> Jan Böhme
Guy Stair Sainty
>
>"George Lucki" <cps...@attglobal.net> wrote in message
>news:<FdTSc.9802$S55.2182@clgrps12>...
>> "Jan B?hme" <jan....@sh.se> wrote in message
>> news:5cbdad47.04081...@posting.google.com...
>> > "George Lucki" <cps...@attglobal.net> wrote in message
>> news:<CvOSc.8230$S55.7170@clgrps12>...
>> >
(The "KMO" is the postnominal
>for the Order of the Serahpim, whose official name actually is
>"Kunglig Majestäts Orden" - The Order of his/her Royal Majesty."
That is very interesting; it is equiveltn to the title of "Ordre du Roi"
for members of the Order of Saint Michel, and "Ordres des Roi" for those
of the Saint Esprit, who got Saint Michel with it because the latter
had been founded earlier and there had been a question when the former
was founded over precedence. Since the Seraphim is a later foundation,
this was presumably done in deliberate imitation of the French practice
(and the Order uses the same ribbon).
>The practical use for the decorations has declined with the declining
>use of formal evening wear, which is one reason that taking them up
>might seem a bit unnecessary. But it is true that, when Sweden proudly
>abolished the conferment of these awards to its citizens, the country
>expected itself to be at the front of modernity, and that other,
>slightly more backward, countries would soon follow suit and abolish
>these outdated and unequal forms of awards. However, this has not
>happened, which should give some food for thought.
It is, I think, some Swedes who are living in a time warp of socialist
"progressiveness" which has largely been discredited elsewhere. Why
awarding excellence should be considered "backward", except in a place
where mediocrity is valued above achievement, is a distinct puzzle. Then
it is also a puzzle as to why the high tax rates that have required
Swedes most successful entrepreneurs to leave the country to live elsewhere, has
been combatted not with a thorough review of the whole system of
taxation, welfare and entitlement but with offers of extraordinary and
particular tax incentives to the very few super rich to stay.
>
>My main argument that the abolition of the awards was silly has
>nothing to to with piety to one's traditions or any kind of
>starry-eyedromanticism, but is practical and hard-nosed to the point
>of cynicism:[snip}
A very sensible commentary and one which I am surprised does not find
a greater response; has this simply been ignored as a political isuse?
How were the recent debates in the UK on possible reform dealt with
by the Swedish press (of differing political convictions)?
>Jan Böhme
Guy Stair Sainty
Kurrild-Klitgaard says...
>
>"George Lucki" <cps...@attglobal.net> wrote in message
>news:<CvOSc.8230$S55.7170@clgrps12>...
>> "Peter Kurrild-Klitgaard" <kur...@politik.dk> wrote in message
>> news:763bd544.04081...@posting.google.com...
>> > pritch...@hotmail.com (David Pritchard) wrote in message
>> news:<47d40f92.04081...@posting.google.com>...
>
>> That said when it comes to Britain I was not aware of any statuatory
>> regulation of knightly coronets - in fact there is no use of a knightly
>> coronet in any of the British realms.
>
>I agree--and that is not what I wrote.
No, but in Britain the status of the armiger is designated by the type
of helm, whether it is open closed, facing left or forward.
>
>> There is a distinctive helm (except
>> for VOSJ in England)
Strangely, while the CoA refuses to accord the Knight's helm to Knights of the
VOSJ, the Lord Lyon does. As the type of knighthood is not defined in
the original concessions of this privilege, and as Grand Crosses of St
John are given the right in the Statutes of the Order to Supporters, as in
other British orders, I suspect this is churlishness on the part of the CoA -
but then as a Knight of St John I am biased on this issue.
>
>but at least in Spain to this day the Order of Isabella the
>Catholic carries with it personal nobility, as does the Order of the
>Elephant and the Grand Cross of the Dannebrog in Denmark.
>Historically this was also the case with the Order of San Lodovico in
>Parma, St. George of the Reunion in The Two Sicilies and St. Anna in
>Russia (where, IIRC, certain grades even conferred hereditary
>nobility). I am sure there are numerous other examples, but again I
>am not near my books right now.
You may recall from the decree that I posted, hereditary nobility was also
recognized by admission into the Constantinian Order in the rank of
Justice, even if by royal motu proprio.
>> The knioghtly orders
>> in Sweden also do not appear to confer Swedish nobility - and the example I
>> am most familiar with would be the assumption of arms by Pres. Lech Walesa
>> with the assistance of the late Swedish Royal Librarian Heymowski -where he
>> used a simple torse and an esquire's helm - as he was neither a Polish or a
>> Swedish noble - although as President of Poland the use of a crest 'of
>> Poland' was a very significant distinction. Jan Bohme outlined this issue
>> well. Again if the matter of coronets is covered in the statutes of the
>> Swedish orders in any positive way, I would be interested to learn this. And
>> again does Sweden have a hereditary knighthood at all - the untitled noble
>> is also really a knight of sorts, that seems to be the common usage and
>> unlike Germany or Austria where there was a rank of untitled nobility of
>> Ritter - I have not run across this with respect to Sweden, so that it would
>> seem that whatever additional heraldic privileges Swedish knights of various
>> orders of merit might might or might not have would always be personal
>> rather than hereditary.
>
>That is certainly true today--yet again: I have not said it was
>otherwise.
What about Swedish Knights of Saint John? How are they treated? Are they
entitled to any special heraldic privileges (of course all the knights of
this Order must be noble).
Dr
BRAVO Professsor, Bravo!
Most Kind Regards
Oliver
Dr
Tack Jan,
What I wonder about is how (if) that influence law on open helm now
when The Goverment and Riddarhuset are separated.
I ask some other swedish heraldist but they wasn't shore.
George Lucki
news:763bd544.04081...@posting.google.com...
> > > basis for the modern use of such coronets in Portugese heraldry? (as
> > > there is for coronets in, say, British, Danish, Belgian, Swedish
> > > heraldry, etc.)
> > >
Peter,
I will happily accept that there was a misunderstanding and that you weren't
comparing such (that is knightly) coronets with similar ones elsewhere. As I
understand you are looking to the basis for the use of coronets in
Portuguese heraldry more generally and when and how these heraldic
regulations were established.
Agreed. The sources of authority for the use of various heraldic coronets
are diverse (ranging from informal usage, and inference to statute) and have
been periodically reorganized or redefined by the granting authority
(monarch or his heraldic delegate). The usages and bases are so diverse it
is hard to generalize. As for the particular coronet used by Carl Lindgren
(I did not know that David Pritchard used this coronet - the only armorial
display I was able to locate for him was on the IAAH site at
http://freepages.misc.rootsweb.com/~amateurheralds/nrc-pritchard.html and
here there is no coronet whatsoever - is there another source I should be
looking at?) I had understood that this was was not so much 'claimed' as you
write but rather specifically conceded by Dom Duarte - at least this is what
I had read in the posts from him and from Pier Felice degli Uberti and
others in this forum. The tincture of the coronet is as I had understood an
informal usage developed by Pier Felice degli Uberti and adopted by Carl
Lindgren and there is no sanction for this in Portuguese custom.
When it comes to the sources in Portuguese law and custom for the various
coronets I think the first place for you to look might be in the various
royal decrees concerning arms that go back to the appointment of Arriet as
King of Arms by Joao I. Since the middle of the fifteenth century all arms
in Portugal have been granted and registered and letters patent or
registrations confirm the specific usage. The use of coronets has evolved
from what I can see by looking at the depiction of arms including Royal
arms. As far as the specific customs - beyond the information in Neubecker,
von Volborth or Pinches I think you would need to go back to Portuguese
references such as the Armorial Lusitanico. I have found a reference to Dom
Luis de Biva Guerra, La Noblesse Portugaise. L'Ordre de la Noblesse. Paris
1978. I have not seen that resource and it is not locally available but it
is in a more accessible language and you may be able to obtain it through
your University's library. I am coming to the conclusion that no one here
may have the specific information you are seeking. As the Vila Vicosa is a
19th century creation it should not be difficult to find in Portuguese
armorials or other resources the arms of some of the individuals who have
obtained this award.
> [Most of the following is based in another misunderstanding of what I
> wrote. I wrote: "And is there a statutory basis for the modern use of
> such coronets in Portugese heraldry? (as there is for coronets in,
> say, British, Danish, Belgian, Swedish heraldry, etc.)". I did not
> say that there were _such_ (hereditary knights') coronets in these
> countries, but referring to the fact that there in these countries
> have been explicit decisions regarding the nature of various coronets
> in heraldry.]
I had apparently misunderstood you. I thought your were saying the same
specific question that you had posed relative to Portuguese knightly
coronets was addressed in the statutes of other lands. In fact you were
saying that the statutes (and as it turns not only statutes but a variety of
non-statutory mechanisms) of other lands addressed the different heraldic
usages of coronets by ranks of nobility and not relating even necessarily to
orders of knighthood.
> Not necessarily. I referred, e.g., to the Italian concept of
> "hereditary knight" (whose coronet is placed in the same column in
> Neubecker's book as the one mentioned by Pritchard).
The Italian hereditary knight (and I think there were several different
sources of hereditary knighthood in Italy) was a nobleman and not
necessarily a member of any order of knighthood.
>
> > by analogy to the
> > Portuguese usage - orders of knighthood are always personal awards and
not
> > hereditary and knights are always commoners
>
> This is not generally true; it would only be the case in those
> particular countries where there have not been any noble status
> connected to membership of particular orders, and that certainly is
> not and have not been the case (as you also seem to acknowledge
> further down in your posting). The British question of whether
> knights are nobles or not is one issue (and one which i shall not
> delve into, since it would seem to me to be largely a terminological
> issue), but at least in Spain to this day the Order of Isabella the
> Catholic carries with it personal nobility, as does the Order of the
> Elephant and the Grand Cross of the Dannebrog in Denmark.
I am happy to acknowledge that these Danish orders carry significant
prestige and accord the honoree with some precedence but I would like to
learn more about it actually confers personal nobility - which is more than
precedence or prestige. In any nation tables of precedence will include an
order for various office holders and honorees and everyone from a privy
councillor to a local town counsellor, military officers and bishops, etc.
will have some place ahead of someone else. Their place may even be ahead of
some with titles of nobility because of the office they hold or the
decoration they wear. this depends on local practice. The difference between
noblem and common was one of the estate one belonged to and carried with it
membership in that estate. There was seen to be a quality of nobility that
appertained to membership in that estate that carried some legal and social
consequences. I'll come back to this.
> Historically this was also the case with the Order of San Lodovico in
> > Similarly for Sweden, where the knightly orders are restricted basically
to
> > foreigners I was not aware of any coronet that was associated with this
or
> > permitted or prohibited by the statutes of the order.
>
> Again, this is a result of you misunderstanding what I wrote; I have
> not said that there was a particular coronet for members of the
> Swedish orders (although I know of at least one example of someone
> being a non-noble who on his stall-plate as a knight of the Seraphim
> was accorded a coronet corresponding to that of an untitled nobleman).
Certainly that in itself does not suggest that these orders confer any
quality of nobility. The world of heraldy is filled with a range of curious
errors and exceptions.
>
> > The knioghtly orders
> > in Sweden also do not appear to confer Swedish nobility -
>
> That is certainly true today--yet again: I have not said it was
> otherwise.
Was it true at some time in the past in Sweden?
> > I hersitate to ask about your own native Denmark, as this is your area
of
> > expertise - but on the basis that there are no dumb questions, I hope
you
> > will indulge my curiosity. In suggesting an analogy to Portugal's
heraldic
> > concessions to hereditary vs. personal knighthood - I was surprised to
see
> > you mention Denmark as an example where this is regulated by statute.
>
> I did not. I suggested that Denmark has had a statutory basis
> (through various sources) for distinguishing between different
> coronets (and this, by the way, is still applied, at least for the
> most part, in the case of the royal orders).
>
> > I was
> > not aware that Denmark had any form of hereditary knighthood at all.
>
> No; it does not. Again ... ;-)
>
> > The Danish orders of merit do not of course confer any sense
> > of personal or hereditary nobility and the recipients of Danish orders
> > remain commoners in every sense.
>
> Not correct. Knights of the Order of the Elephant have precedence in
> Class I of the Danish Order of Precedence; Knights Grand Cross of the
> Dannebrog have precedence in Class II.
Precedence is of course not the same as nobility. There are a variety of
reasons why someone might hold a higher posiiton in a table of precedence.
Nobility is one. An order is another. An office is a third.
According to a Royal
> Resolution of 1808 (confirmed with the latest major over-haul of the
> Order of Precedence in 1953, and to this day printed annually in the
> Government's "Royal Court & State Almanach" and, I think, at the
> government's website) members of the first three classes are to be and
> to be held as nobles, for themselves and their descendants in the
> first generation.
The extension of personal nobility to modern recipients of the Elephant is
news to me. I understand the points you make, but in themselves they are not
fully persuasive. I expect that there are bases for this qualification that
you have not addressed yourself to in your post. The strongest evidence
would seem to come from the "Royal Court and State Almanach". I have
searched through denmark.dk (the official government web-site) and the royal
web-site but found no reference to the extension of personal nobility
accruing to the honorees of either order. Do you have another source you can
direct me to, or can you provide the appropriate citation? It would be very
interesting. I have no doubt that the foundation of the order was originally
intended to create a 'nobility of loyalty' from among wealthy burghers and
foreign supporters of the monarch, but I am interested to see how this has
been positively carried forward to this day - and after the reforms of the
19th century and the modernization of your state in 1953 that these orders
can actually confer personal nobility. I trust your knowledge of this
matter, but wonder what the distinction might be between 'to be held as
nobles' and ennoblement.
One of the most famous recipients of the Elephant after World War II was
Dwight D. Eisenhower, a general at the time. As the holder of an office in
the US government he would have normally been precluded from accepting an
honour of nobility from a foreign prince without specific congressional
approval. Was he (and his children ennobled) and did he obtain permission to
receive ennoblement? Or did he simply receive a foreign order?
The other bases you cite for presuming that the Order of the Elephant
confers real personal nobility on the recipient seem sketchy - I would
presume that there are other confirmatory statutory references or other
references in which the government refers to the recipients of these orders
and their children as actual nobles (as opposed to some mere equivalency of
precedence). This is not a trivial distinction. Are the recipients of the
orders for example entered into registers of nobility or the like?
Through a number of decrees, etc., in the late 17th
> century those who enjoy personal nobility have the right to use the
> helmet of the untitled hereditary nobility, and this helmet has in
> recent years been accorded to at least three GC of the D (who were not
> otherwise nobles). It is a matter of interpretation whether the
> coronet reserved for untitled (hereditary) noblemen could also be used
> by those with only personal nobility (qua, e.g., a knighthood); it is
> my opinion that they may, and there has certainly been a certain
> customary basis for this. Furthermore, an explicit royal decree,
> combined with illustrations in the written statutes of the Order of
> the Elephant, gave knights of this order (and privy councillors--but
> that is a different story) the right to use a baronial coronet, even
> if they were not barons; to my knowledge this has never been done,
> though.
>
Is the regulation of the use of the coronet of the untitled nobility
regulated by statute or by custom in Denmark? I am not clear why there would
be uncertainty regarding the use of the coronet for the members of Danish
orders. I had understood that the use of coronets was well regulated in
Denmark. Certainly it would seem that they either do or don't. Where there
has been a customary usage has it been in any way acknowledged by the state?
Again the arms of Dwight Eisenhower a knight of the Elephant and designed
for him on that occasion include neither nobleman's coronet nor helm. In
fact they are not distinguishable from burgher arms of this period. The
occasional use of a different helm is an interesting heraldic perogative. I
understand from your post that this is an exceptional rather than typical
use. The illustrations accompanying the statutes of the Order of the
Elephant I presume date from the late 17th century and are not expressed in
the text. As orders of chivalry were often accorded to those who were
already noble or royal is this to be taken as an illustration or as a
definitive ruling - especially since practice has never seemed to follow
from this.
> Various titles/pre-fixes have also been accorded to those who have a
> place in the Order of Precedence, more or less corresponding to "The
> Honourable", "The Right Honourable", etc.; the only of these which is
> still in use is "His Excellency" for those in Class I; I know for a
> fact that this is still used for Knights of the Elephant who have no
> higher titles.
These are not necessarily indications of nobility but respect.
>
> (I have mentioned this several times before here at rec.heraldry and I
> understand that there might be an appendix on this issue forthcoming
> in the exciting new "Burke's Orders of Chivalry" ... ;-)
Looking forward to this, Peter.
>
> > The last concession of nobility in Denmark,
> > I thought, was more than 150 years ago.
>
> Not correct--although it seems as long ago ...;-) Disregarding the
> various creations of counts of Rosenborg, the last ennoblement was in
> 1912 (the naturalization of the family Castonier), while the last
> ennoblement all anew (so to speak) was in 1906 (the Koefoed family).
Thank you for the correction.
>
> > The issue of statutory regulation of
> > heraldic appurtenances of knighthood (personal - because of course
unlike
> > Portugal Denmark does nto appear to have a hereditary rank of knight) is
> > therefore of great interest. What do the Danish statutes of orders say
about
> > the use of coronets of any sort by knights of any sort.
>
> With the exception of the schemes illustrating the use of a baronial
> coronet for knights of the Elephant, the statutes themselves say
> relatively little about the heraldry of the knights. The statutory
> basis for what coronets are to be used by whom is instead found in
> various decrees, memos, etc., mostly from the period 1670-93, but with
> some subsequent changes in the exact composition of, e.g., the various
> classes.
This is not surprising. I do not expect to generally find such heraldic
questions elaborated with any precision or detail in older and much more
arbitrary times. Although I do not know, it would not surprise me to see a
similar state of affairs in the heraldic usage of Portuguese dynastic
knights - especially of a new order such as Vila Vicosa established in what
was not the happiest century for Portuguese monarchy.
>
> > Now in all of this, I may be wrong and if I have come to incorrect
> > conclusions I would expect that you gently correct these. You are after
all
> > the ICOC expert on Scandinavian orders, decorations, medals and awards
and a
> > member of some of the most respected heraldic organizations and I feel
> > rather awkward posing these questions so bluntly.
>
> You should not be. None of us (most notably myself) would ever have
> become any wiser if we never asked questions, and yours certainly are
> very sensible (even if you misunderstood what I wrote).
Even if I misunderstood what you were asking - this has certainly led into
an interesting and informative discussion.
>
> > Kind regards, George Lucki
> >
> > PS - I am again forming the impression that some of the questions posed
on
> > the forum are not really motivated by a thirst for knowledge or as
genuine
> > scholarly inquiry but are intended as tools for personal attacks - that
is
> > that in the guise of meritorious discussion the motives are personal and
the
> > points made intended to be ad hominem. I may be wrong in imputing such
> > motives, but I would like to see our discussions return to the merits
and
> > away from the animosities.
>
> If you are referring to me, then I can say that in this matter, my
> only concern is that those who make any claims on their own behalf
> should be able to answer what they base such claims in. This is as
> true for coronets, as it is with other honorifics, orders of chivalry,
> academic degrees or institutional affiliations. Is that too much to
> ask?
>
Peter, I should have placed my PS as a seperate post so that it was clear
that this was a general observation and concern - certainly it was not my
intention to single you out in any way. I regret any inference that way.
As to the question whether recipients of various honours (with no disrespect
intended to the knowledge of individuals such as Pritchard or Lindgren who
do take an interest in these matters) should be able to explain why they
have been accorded particular coronets, honorifics, academic gowns, etc. -
my answer would generally be no. It is reasonable to trust the decision of
the granting authority. Most people who receive any award actually seem to
know relatively about the heraldic privileges, etc. relating to it. The same
holds true for academics - someone tells them - this is the gown or robe you
are to wear given your degree or university position. So that is what they
do and often know little of the history, significance and customs. Why do
they do this - because they are so advised by those who are responsible for
such ceremonial and who ought know.
Kind regards, George Lucki
George Lucki
I have located a reference to:
"A Ordem Militar de Nossa Senhora da Conceicao de Vila Vicosa" published by
the Fundacao da Casa de Braganca, Lisboa, 1955 that apparently contains the
statutes of the order, al ist of pre 1910 appointments, a bibliography,
illustrations of the decorations and documents. It also contains the Decrees
and Royal Directives relating to the order. I suspect all of the information
you seek is there. I have tried to locate a copy here through library
sources but have not found one, but you may be able to access it through
your own sources. I would be interested as to what it information it
contains relative to the subject of our discussions.
Kind regards, George Lucki
Dr
the fact that they are previously Commanders Grand Cross of one of the
other three Swedish state orders. Women are styled "Member" and
priests are styled "Member of the clergy". Foreigners are bestowed the
collar only in exceptional cases.
All Knights (and Members) of the Order of the Seraphim have rank
following the ministers of the government, and are addressed "Herr" or
"Fru" followed by surname, their first name is never used. They have a
Seraphim coat-of-arms, which is placed in the church of Riddarholmen,
Riddarholmskyrkan, after their death. On the day of the funeral, the
seraphim bell toll is made from the seraphim bell in the church.
http://arnell.cc/
Rgds.
"George Lucki" <cps...@attglobal.net> wrote in message news:<t%8Tc.12615$S55.8310@clgrps12>...
AY
> Well, I can't say for certain that these initials haven't been
> appropriated for some "order" or another, but in British usage they
> stand for Knight Commander of the [Most Exalted Order of the] Star of
> India. Since the order hasn't been given since 1947, I must assume
> that anyone rightfully using these postnominals today is an extremely,
> extremely elderly veteran of the old Indian Civil Service.
A maharajah or nawab would be more likely to still be alive, if he was
given it at a young age.
andrew
Dr
that even I who once lived in a Socialistic Country find very strange
and un natural.
In ex. every body address them selfs on first name (only the members
of the royal house must be addressed on You level not Thy as all
others.)
It is considered wrong to show up that one belongs to the elite.
How ever this tendentions seem to change very slow recently.
In the same time there is structural discrimination against all
strangers, elite private schools etc.
The reasons for such high taxes is the price that we all pay for the
very strong social protection. I must admit that I am not happy with
so high taxes but then again... Sweden is a small country and have
strong social protection of citizens that we enjoy if... God forbid...
Rgds.
Guy Stair Sainty <g...@sainty.org> wrote in message news:<cfitn...@drn.newsguy.com>...
Jan B?hme
> >
> >"George Lucki" <cps...@attglobal.net> wrote in message
> >news:<FdTSc.9802$S55.2182@clgrps12>...
> >> "Jan B?hme" <jan....@sh.se> wrote in message
> >> news:5cbdad47.04081...@posting.google.com...
> >> > "George Lucki" <cps...@attglobal.net> wrote in message
> news:<CvOSc.8230$S55.7170@clgrps12>...
> >> >
>
> (The "KMO" is the postnominal
> >for the Order of the Serahpim, whose official name actually is
> >"Kunglig Majestäts Orden" - The Order of his/her Royal Majesty."
>
> That is very interesting; it is equiveltn to the title of "Ordre du Roi"
> for members of the Order of Saint Michel, and "Ordres des Roi" for those
> of the Saint Esprit, who got Saint Michel with it because the latter
> had been founded earlier and there had been a question when the former
> was founded over precedence. Since the Seraphim is a later foundation,
> this was presumably done in deliberate imitation of the French practice
> (and the Order uses the same ribbon).
Indeed it was. France whas The Great Paragon in Sweden during the
latter two thirds of the eighteenth century.
> >The practical use for the decorations has declined with the declining
> >use of formal evening wear, which is one reason that taking them up
> >might seem a bit unnecessary. But it is true that, when Sweden proudly
> >abolished the conferment of these awards to its citizens, the country
> >expected itself to be at the front of modernity, and that other,
> >slightly more backward, countries would soon follow suit and abolish
> >these outdated and unequal forms of awards. However, this has not
> >happened, which should give some food for thought.
>
> It is, I think, some Swedes who are living in a time warp of socialist
> "progressiveness" which has largely been discredited elsewhere.
Not certain that they do any more. If so, a lot less than was the case
thirty years ago. Now, it is more of a feeling that we know best
because we are we - more honest, more loyal and less self-serving than
the rest. Not any more because we are particularly socialist or
progressive.
> Why
> awarding excellence should be considered "backward", except in a place
> where mediocrity is valued above achievement, is a distinct puzzle.
Ah, yes. This has actually not all that much to do with Socialism
other than very indirectly. Egalitarianism as a typical Swedish
persuasion is much older than Socialism itself, let alone Socialism in
Sweden. The strong support for egalitarian sentiments in Sweden has to
to with our particular history - which in turn was shaped by our
particular geography. Due to the vastness of the land, the limited
population, and the rather meager soils in most of the country, the
the farmer actually working his fields had a much stronger position
than in essentially all other European countries - with the possible
exception of Norway. (At the time I am talking about, Finland was a
part of Sweden.) The freeholding farmers dominated among the peasants,
and these had an Estate of their own at the Parliament, which was a
four-estate parlament (nobility, clergy, burghers and freeholding
farmers). Up to around 1800 - in some areas longer still - these
freeholding farmers lived together in tight villages, where the
property structure, with the land parcelled out in lots of tiny strips
between the individual proprietors - almost demanded a close
cooperation, and thus a close collective spirit.
It was in these villagers that the spirit of the Swedish common man
was formed - a village where every man was as good as the other, where
the soil had to be laboured in cooperation and consensus, and anyone
who tried to get richer or better than his fellow villagers was a
threat to the way things were done, and thus a security risk to the
local system. Social democracy certainly didn't invent Swedish
egalitarianism - the only thing it did was to tap the sentiment that
was there since ages. The villages were broken up in land reforms two
hundred years ago, and the former farmers migrated in to the cities
and factories a hundred years ago, but that is not nearly enough time
for such a fundamental change of mentality that would be required.
Don't try to seem better than your peers! And there are lots of curt
Swedish proverbs condemning _boasting_ - "Empty barrels make the most
noise" is a representative example.
And it has many beneficial effects, too. A Swedish boss may have to
tread carefully to manage a workforce so instinctively averse of any
kind of bossing around, but he is much more likely actually to be told
the valuable unwelcome truths that are otherwise so difficult for
bosses to get wind of. And the average Swedish factory worker is a lot
more prepared to take responsibility for what he does than his
continental counterparts - just as the farmers were prepared to to in
that old village where most Swedes still live, emotionally.
Two hundred years ago, a hundred years ago, and to some extent fifty
years ago or even forty years ago when I grew up, there existed a
Swedish élite with a different mindset - quite simply because it was
formed from the small minority whose ancestors had _not_ lived in
those villages - at least not for a very long time. These were the
ones who imitated France two hundred and fifty years ago - and their
great-grandsons turned to imitating Imperial Germany a hundred an
twenty-five years ago. They were so few that they had to imitate
something - the critical mass for independent development simply
wasn't there.
But in modern Sweden, this old álite is marginalised. The Common Man
has won, quite simply. New élites are emerging, but they come from the
stock of this Common Man. And this means that Swedish attitudes,
paradoxically enough, are _more_ imprinted by the old farming villages
than they were a hundred years ago.
That's it. Socialism, or Social democracy, just happened to come in
and use these sentiments. But they have actually nothing to do with
either, and I am positive that they will persist long after Social
Democracy has ceased to be Sweden's dominating political force.
> >My main argument that the abolition of the awards was silly has
> >nothing to to with piety to one's traditions or any kind of
> >starry-eyedromanticism, but is practical and hard-nosed to the point
> >of cynicism:[snip}
>
> A very sensible commentary and one which I am surprised does not find
> a greater response; has this simply been ignored as a political isuse?
> How were the recent debates in the UK on possible reform dealt with
> by the Swedish press (of differing political convictions)?
By a thundering silence, I'm sorry to say.
Jan Böhme
Jan B?hme
> jan....@sh.se (Jan B?hme) wrote in message news:<5cbdad47.04081...@posting.google.com>...
>
> Tack Jan,
> What I wonder about is how (if) that influence law on open helm now
> when The Goverment and Riddarhuset are separated.
My opinion is that it is of no consequence for the open helm law. It
would seem as if Erik Tersmeden is of the same opinion in the link
that I posted, even if he dos not explicitely mention the heraldry Act
of 1762.
Normally, such questions would eventually be resolved in court. But I
dont't think that a Swedish court would take up such a case. While it
still clearly is forbidden to use an open helmet if you are a
commoner, the punishment has become obsolete. Thus, it is against the
law to use an open helmet as a commoner, but there is since long no
punishment for the offense. (This isn't unique. It is also against the
law for a pedestrian to cross a street against a red traffic light,
but there is no longer a punishment for it.)
And the principles of judicial economy say that when no punishment or
redress is possible, a case shouldn't be taken up.
Jan Böhme
e ii rikr u1@ureach.com
"David Pritchard" <pritch...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:47d40f92.04081...@posting.google.com...
> Dear François,
>
> I am quite surprised that someone like yourself, who presents himself
> as a scholar, would fail to know
Actually, Velde has never presented himself as a scholar. His writings do.
Francois R. Velde
> I have located a reference to:
> "A Ordem Militar de Nossa Senhora da Conceicao de Vila Vicosa" published by
> the Fundacao da Casa de Braganca, Lisboa, 1955 that apparently contains the
> statutes of the order, al ist of pre 1910 appointments, a bibliography,
> illustrations of the decorations and documents. It also contains the Decrees
> and Royal Directives relating to the order. I suspect all of the information
> you seek is there. I have tried to locate a copy here through library
> sources but have not found one, but you may be able to access it through
> your own sources. I would be interested as to what it information it
> contains relative to the subject of our discussions.
The author is Francisco Belard da Fonseca. Copies exist in the Library of
Congress, Yale, Harvard, New York Public Library.
--
François R. Velde
ve...@nospam.org (replace by "heraldica")
Heraldica Web Site: http://www.heraldica.org/
Guy Stair Sainty
Thank you very much for this fascinating exposition; it certainly serves to
explain a great deal - nonetheless, it was in the context of this earlier
society that the Orders were founded, awarded, and presumably valued by
the recipients. The decision to prevent Swedes from being given them is a
latter construct. Did the common man not receive these awards? Was there
no value attributed to them?
George Lucki
news:cfqj0n$di0$1...@e250.ripco.com...
> In medio rec.heraldry aperuit George Lucki <cps...@attglobal.net> os
suum:
> > I have located a reference to:
> > "A Ordem Militar de Nossa Senhora da Conceicao de Vila Vicosa" published
by
> > the Fundacao da Casa de Braganca, Lisboa, 1955 that apparently contains
the
> > statutes of the order, al ist of pre 1910 appointments, a bibliography,
> > illustrations of the decorations and documents. It also contains the
Decrees
> > and Royal Directives relating to the order. I suspect all of the
information
> > you seek is there. I have tried to locate a copy here through library
> > sources but have not found one, but you may be able to access it through
> > your own sources. I would be interested as to what it information it
> > contains relative to the subject of our discussions.
>
> The author is Francisco Belard da Fonseca. Copies exist in the Library of
> Congress, Yale, Harvard, New York Public Library.
>
Thanks for the author and the lead. NLC-BNC doesn't have any copies listed
in Canada.
George Lucki
Dr
What Jan write about orders in Sweden is a truth with modification:
Recently a medal of Order of Serafim was avarded to Swedish(I suspect
that is like test award to feel the pulse)
Order of St.John is regulary awarded and is under protection of The
King and is almoust reserved for Swedish (alt.Scandinavians)
Frimasons order is awarded to with patent leter of arms, under
protection of The King again.(regardles that Catholic churc has outlaw
Frimasons the Lutherna churc didn't)
I personaly think that is sad that Sweden abolished order for there
citizens but...
Rgds.
Glen Cook
knowledge of its accuracy.
Dr
This still don't explain when the cornets for David and Lindgren were
actualy granted and under which autority!?
In theres certificate from cronistas Coronets are not included!
If there is non explicit grant of use that it is self assumed. As it
is assumed or pay for The Dr title of "Don" DAMP.
I am wondering on what basis David Multibogus and Lindgren have title
Don incorporated in theres SPANISH certificate of arms by Don
Viscente, for which as we all know is equal to the title Lord in Uk.
Coronet of rank must be explicitly granted.As all coronets (rank or
not) in UK.
I don't understand way do you act like portparol for them? Are they
not capable to explain on they own?
Rgds.
Jan B?hme
> In article <5cbdad47.04081...@posting.google.com>, Jan B?hme says...
>
>
> Thank you very much for this fascinating exposition; it certainly serves to
> explain a great deal - nonetheless, it was in the context of this earlier
> society that the Orders were founded, awarded, and presumably valued by
> the recipients. The decision to prevent Swedes from being given them is a
> latter construct. Did the common man not receive these awards?
Not particularly much, and very little at the time when they really
mattered - during the Oscarian era (our equivalent to Late Victorian)
and before. After WWI, there were progressively more recipients with
common man roots - perhaps specially for the Wasa Order, awarded for
achievements outside public service. But the whole system still
retained some kind of Oscarian flavour. I think it was this that
finally did the system in.
> Was there no value attributed to them?
In their natural class of recipients, yes. Outside, not really. The
crofters of a landowning count with a high function at the Court
wouldnt care tuppence whether he was a KStKNO or a mere KNO. He was
"the count", quite simply. Idem, mutatis mutandis for an indastrialist
and his factory workers.
Also, it became progrssively less and less fashionable throughout the
twentieth century to express one's joy or gratitude over an award too
ostentatiously. A hundred years ago, it was OK - though perhaps not
entirely normal - to have a new gong painted in on a previously
completed portrait. To do so during my childhood would have invited
merciless ridicule from all quarters.
Jan Böhme