Gyronny of 8, Lorne and Arran
Greg
something very curious:
Earl of Argyle, 1st & 4th: the gyronny of 8, subsequent to 1316,
changes from Argent and Sable to Or and Sable, with no explanation for
the color change.
2nd & 3rd: Lorne, likewise changes from a field of Or to a field of
Argent, again, with no explanation, other than a date of 1624 given
for the first appearnce with Argent as the field.
The only hint for Argyle is a marriage to a Stewart daughter in 1469.
Could this be the reason for the change to Or in the gyronny?
Secondly, with respect to Lorne and Arran, here again, there is no
explanation for the change of Lorne from a field of Or to one of
Argent, and would that not have clashed with the Lord of Arran: a
field of Argent? Both having a lymphad Sable as a charge.
Why the changes, and what's the explanation?
Alex Maxwell Findlater
originally a field Or while Arran seems always to have had Argent.
When the two Lorne heiresses married on about 1469 respectively
Campbell of Lochawe and Campbell of Glenurquhy, they carried those
arms with them. The Campbell of Lochawe arms in the Scots Roll, ca
1455 does not show the Lorne quartering, and has the gyronny Argent
and Sable. Next to it is the Lord of Lorne, showing Lorne, Or a
lymphad Sable quartering Stewart undifferenced. By 1542 the Armorial
of Sir David Lyndsay of the Mount shows Campbell Earl of Argyll with
the Lorne quarter still Or and with the Campbell quarter still Argent
and Sable. These tinctures were unchanged until the end of the
century, so the Crawford Armorial (1601x03) is the first in which the
new tinctures appear. Perhaps at this stage the Lorne quarter was
considered to be correctly on a field Argent and the Campbell coat
changed to Or and Sable, though which was the motive coat is a matter
of conjecture. Often Argent will morph to Or, Or being the more noble
metal. I comment on this slightly differently in the Crawford
Armorial.
Greg
wrote:
The connection to the Stewarts was the reason I brought up the
question. The idea that a metal would simply change to a known royal
tincture -without some sort of connection however, seems a bit odd to
me unless Argyll was attemnpting to coimmunicate something. It sounds
reasonable to me that the Scots Roll would not indicate a Campbell /
Lorne connection because the marriges of Lorne women did not take
place for 14 years. I do have a reference of Argyll's Or and Sable
from about 1615.
Again however, a 'morphing' to a royal tincutre seems unsatisfactory
given the calliber of Argyll's holdings and influence, particularly
with repsect to the portestant cause...
Alex Maxwell Findlater
Royal coats, it is certainly not exclusive to Royals. My own arms are
Azure and Or and there are many which always used Or, eg Bruce,
McDowall, Seton, while others used Argent eg Maxwell, Oliphant,
Cunningham.
Greg
Yes, I know that, and thought you might bring that up. My question
with repect to that concerns Or, in the case of Bruce for instance, Or
came to use in a time period wherein there were not very many arms on
record, or even granted. Bruce decsends from Norman royality,
Campbell descends from Ulster. I'm not talkning about charges, but a
major tincture: Stewart, Graham of Mentieth (Stewart) etc.
Do you understand the piont I'm trying to make? If you are saying that
Or as a major field tincture in those early days was "just anothert
application of heraldic color", then I would understand completley.
But I'm not sure I follow your reasoning. Carryk's arms in the Balliol
Roll show descent from Bruce. Abernathy, again shows a Stewart
connection.
Can you clarify?
Alex Maxwell Findlater
were Argent a lion Azure. I don't think that they were connected to
Norman royalty. They became earls of Carrick by marriage to the
eldest daughter and heiress of Earl Neil. Although the Campbells had
married well, as far as we know - and we don't know much - I don't
think that there is any evidence that they married into royalty.
The earldom of Menteith went to a Stewart and then a Graham inherited
it, both by marrying an heiress. The arms of the ancient earldom are
taken to be barry wavy, but that is questionable in any case and from
a seal, so that any tinctures imputed to them are without historic
evidence.
The Abernethy arms are obviously derived from those of Fife, which in
turn are of the same basic design as the Royal arms, the first earl of
Fife being probably an elder brother of a King of Scots. However they
have no relationship to the Stewart arms.
In none of these cases can I see any particular indication that the
use of Or denoted a Royal ancestry. It is much more to do with
ringing the changes on the available tinctures.
Go through a book of early arms, eg the Armorial de Gelre or de la
Toison d'Or, which are both pan-European. I'm sure that you will find
that the incidence of Argent and Or is about the same.
Greg
Yes, you are right about Bruce: I don't know why I said royalty.
I do have the Scots Roll and as I look through it, there is indeed
alot of Or. I was just curious about tincture changes.
Thanks