Ethiopian Order of Saint Anthony
Reghorthy
what I understand it is a order attached to the Ethiopian Household/ or Crown
Council in exile in Washington DC. As the legitimate Fons Honrarum of this
order, is the the Ethiopian Royal Household invested anyone with this
particular order in the last one hundred years.
Guy Stair Sainty
says...
I am sure that a modest donation in support of the Prince awarding this
decoration would secure one for the donor promptly.
Guy Stair Sainty
www.chivalricorders.org
Bryan J. Maloney
regh...@aol.com (Reghorthy) wrote:
According to a web site for collectors of medals, it was instituted in
1370, but only awarded to priests. From what little I've been able to
gather, at least as long as there was a Negus ruling Ethiopia, it looks
like it was of a more personal award (Order of Merit sort of thing) than
some sort of organized "chivalric order", but nothing is really clear
about this, and one of the the rival factions (which we shall call
"Yacobite" for reasons both serious and archly ironic) now present it as
a "chivalric order" going back to AD370, allegedly with the mission to
defend the Holy Land--quite a feat considering that at the time the Holy
Land didn't need all that much defending from infidels.
The Crown Council faction (who put forth no specific claimants for
reasons that shall become obvious) says that the order was "medieval" in
origin and that it was exclusively awarded to clerics. Furthermore, the
Crown Council plainly states that all other Ethiopian Orders of Chivalry
were invented in the 19th century.
Now's when the dirty business kicks in (and probably why I never got any
straight answer to a question I put forth some time ago regarding who
was up for the vacant Ethiopian throne). Evidently, as far as I can
tell, the successor to Neguse Negest (King of Kings) Haile Salasse, Lion
of Judah, Anointed of God, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, was--and
everybody agrees on this point--Amha Selasse, named "emperor-designate"
in 1974 and "deposed" in 1975, although he wisely stayed out of the
country. In any case, Amha Selasse was most likely the last Neguste
Negus that neither faction would question.
You following me so far? Fast-forward to 1993 or thereabouts. Some
time between 1975 and 1997, a "Crown Council" got formed. Likewise, it
seems that Amha Selasse and his eldest son, named Zara Yaquob Asfa
Wossen, had had some sort of serious falling out. So Amha Selasse
bequeaths whatever power he has to the Crown Council to hold the
Imperial Throne in trust until it is restored to Ethiopia, at which time
it will choose the next Neguste Negus--kind of like in a
tanaiste/derbhfine fashion. (Sound familiar?)
But Zere Yacobe (variant spelling currently favored) hasn't just
shriveled up and blown away in the interim. He's started (or had
started for him or allowed to be started in his name) a "Solomonic Crown
of Ethiopia" organization. Part of their information quotes from
verifiable documentary evidence that the last pre-revolutionary
Constitution of Ethiopia and the decree of Haile Salasse made it quite
plain that Zere Yacobe was the designated heir of Mared Azmatch Asfa
Wossen (later Amha Selasse), who was his own designated heir. Likewise,
this constitution and decree were not altered by Haile Salasse in his
lifetime.
So the matter hinges on an all-too-familiar (can we say Romanov?)
question. Does a monarch in exile who is from a theoretically
autocratic monarchical tradition have the power to alter succession
however he sees fit? Does he if that contradicts the explicit wish of
his predecessor? Is only a seated monarch actually possessed of "legal
powers" sufficent to alter succession?
But wait, it starts to get juicy. The Yacobites are operating with the
aid of a "Psokolovsky" (http://psokolovsky.tripod.com/ is the Solomonic
Crown's shortest URL) and a Mr. Lawrence E. Slight, Jr.
Other Psokolovsky-associated web pages:
http://www.geocities.com/psokolovsky/nascnia/nnqa.html
http://www.geocities.com/psokolovsky/nascnia/nascnia1.html
As for Mr. Slight, well, he certainly looked quite pleased when he was
invested in the "Religious and Military Order of Knights of the Holy
Sepulchre of Jerusalem" which held its investiture in the traditional
and ancient Crusader fortress of Greeley, Colorado Ramada Inn.
But wait, there's more. Mr. Slight is also a "contact" for "Aethopiae
Imperii Collegium Heraldae" (established by "Command of his Imperial
Majesty" on November 16, A.D. 2001). Yes, the Yacobites decided that
they had to have their own college of heraldry, never mind that this
sort of thing isn't part of Ethiopan tradition. But that's okay.
They've also invented two new "Orders". The "Imperial Order of St. Mary
of Zion" is the "chivalric" and the "Ethiopian Order of Baronets" is the
"management pool" for the Solomonic Crown. Never mind the fact that
Ethiopia has a remarkable array of historical noble titles to use
(including a specific use of "Basha" for lower administrators). And
even the addition of Western-style titles in the 19th century did not
include "baronet" (although "Grazmatch" was decreed to be equal to
"Baron").
So, who's who in the where with the whatsis? Don't ask me. I was just
curious as to whether or not their was an Ethiopian claimant, and look
at the routes it took me through.
--
America is a wonderful country. Where else could a young Black man like
Michael Jackson grow up to be a middle-aged White woman?
Bryan J. Maloney
<g...@sainty.org> wrote:
The Crown Council has not handed one out at all, so far as I know.
Indeed, the Crown Council makes it quite plain that St. Anthony is for
clergy. And as far as Ethiopia is concerned, "clergy" refers to the
Tawahedo Church. So, are you going to now go insult the Ethiopian
Orthodox Church, too?
AntiSainty
While Mr. Sainty is supposedly an "Expert" in all things heraldic, Chivalric,
etc.. He knows very little about non-Eurpean orders of knighthood. Purhaps
Mr. Sainty is the true MM.
Guy Stair Sainty
says...
I am immensely flattered that once again some cowardly critic has actually
taken my own name to post attacks. I shall not waste my time countering
the accusations of "racism" etc which cannot possibly be inferred from
my post.
The irrascible Maloney has explained the dissension in the Ethiopian Imperial
camp; both sides are distributing various Orders and distinctions, and one
at least has signed up with some well-known participants in dubious
chivalric organizations. He has not apparently inferred the logical
conclusion of these differences, that the Orders distributed to supporters
of one or the other are thereby diminished.
The distribution of these honors and titles, etc, has led to people receiving
them who have no connection with Ethiopia and no direct connection with the
senior Princes of Ethiopia. They receive these awards for not doing anything
other than "supporting" their organizations with financial donations.
Hence my suggestion that such a donation could elicit a chivalric award.
Quite why "Antisainty" thinks this is racist, or Maloney thinks this
is an attack on the Ethiopian Orthodox Church I have no idea. Maloney'just
enjoys any unpleasantry so I suppose it is to be expected - as for Antisainty
I can only assume he is another lurker enthusiast of false Orders.
Guy Stair Sainty
www.chivalricorders.org
Bryan Maloney
news:20020301022229...@mb-dd.aol.com:
Go wet yourself elsewhere. Mr Sainty and I may disagree on many points,
but at least I do him the courtesy of posting under my real name, from a
readily traceable address and state the specific matters of disagreement.
Tell me, specifically WHICH Ethiopian orders are being awarded today in the
same way they were awarded while the Negeste Negus was on the throne?
Bryan Maloney
news:a5nea...@drn.newsguy.com:
> The irrascible Maloney has explained the dissension in the Ethiopian
> Imperial camp; both sides are distributing various Orders and
> distinctions, and one at least has signed up with some well-known
Actually, as far as I can tell, the Crown Council has handed out three
individual awards since 1974. If you are going to blather on, at least get
some of the facts.
> participants in dubious chivalric organizations. He has not apparently
> inferred the logical conclusion of these differences, that the Orders
> distributed to supporters of one or the other are thereby diminished.
Are you a professional idiot? If not, I suggest you look into the career.
Quote SPECIFICALLY where I have said anything to this effect. Oh, but
that's not how you work, is it? Actually backing up an innuendo? Simply
not your style.
> award. Quite why "Antisainty" thinks this is racist, or Maloney thinks
> this is an attack on the Ethiopian Orthodox Church I have no idea.
Here, me point out in little word so stupid can follow:
You say dat St. Anthony can be had by getting money.
You got eveeedence for dat?
Or yoo just being lawyer-type dishonest thing?
Indeed, it looks to me like even the "Solomonic Crown" is inventing new
doodads to hand out instead of trying to toss around legitimate Ethiopian
honors.
Francois R. Velde
>Other Psokolovsky-associated web pages:
>http://www.geocities.com/psokolovsky/nascnia/nnqa.html
>http://www.geocities.com/psokolovsky/nascnia/nascnia1.html
Not there.
--
François Velde
ve...@nospam.org (replace by "heraldica")
Heraldry Site: http://www.heraldica.org/
Francois R. Velde
And you, whoever you are, know very little about honor and courage.
Bryan J. Maloney
velde@heraldica_nospam.org wrote:
> In medio rec.heraldry aperuit "Bryan J. Maloney" <bj...@cornell.edu> os
> suum:
> >Other Psokolovsky-associated web pages:
> >http://www.geocities.com/psokolovsky/nascnia/nnqa.html
> >http://www.geocities.com/psokolovsky/nascnia/nascnia1.html
>
> Not there.
Amazing how QUICKLY they dissapeared after I posted them. Fraud-boy and
Fraud-boy, junior must still be reading.
Message to said Fraud Boy and Flunkie: I know about the "dinner in
London" as your only contact. I also know that you have no written
authorization for what you do.
Somebody will eventually investigate the "charitable" arm of the
Fraud-boy organization, and it will mysteriously vanish, leaving some
unhappy (and hopefully less credulous) people behind holding the bag.
Reghorthy
perspective does the Crown Council of Ethiopia have the authority to issue
awards of knighthood? Even if these Orders of knighthood are issued for a fee
or amount as Mr. Sainty suggested, does not change the fact that the award is
still valid since it is coming from a legal source(The Ethiopian Crown
Council).
Francois R. Velde
> Name calling has no place in this forum.
I call spade a spade. If it makes the spade unhappy, tough for the spade.
> From an academic and legal
> perspective does the Crown Council of Ethiopia have the authority to issue
> awards of knighthood? Even if these Orders of knighthood are issued for a fee
> or amount as Mr. Sainty suggested, does not change the fact that the award is
> still valid since it is coming from a legal source(The Ethiopian Crown
> Council).
I don't understand what that Council is, nor do I understand whether the
Order in question emanates from that Council or from another Ethiopian
faction. Bryan's summary (indisputed until now) suggests that the Council
was set up sometime after the fall of the dynasty and acts as a kind of
regency. I don't see how one can assert that this council is a "legal
source", unless the pre-1975 laws of Ethiopia provided for its existence.
I once looked a little into the Ethiopian matter, back in the NN days
when it was apparent that several NN people were also involved in
Ethiopian orders. Like Bryan, I was quickly confused, and I had
even less persistence than he did. I must say that, back then, there
were no Ethiopian baronets. Now *that* has some cachet.
--
François R. Velde
ve...@nospam.org (replace by "heraldica")
Heraldica Web Site: http://www.heraldica.org/
Timothy A. McDaniel
Francois R. Velde <ve...@heraldica.nospam.org> wrote:
>I once looked a little into the Ethiopian matter, back in the NN days
Please be careful of your abbreviations. In this context, I first
thought "NN" here meant "Negusa Negest"!
--
Tim McDaniel is tm...@jump.net; if that fail,
tm...@us.ibm.com is my work account.
"To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything
up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka....@hut.fi (Jukka Korpela)
Bryan J. Maloney
wrote:
> I don't understand what that Council is, nor do I understand whether the
> Order in question emanates from that Council or from another Ethiopian
> faction. Bryan's summary (indisputed until now) suggests that the
> Council
> was set up sometime after the fall of the dynasty and acts as a kind of
> regency. I don't see how one can assert that this council is a "legal
> source", unless the pre-1975 laws of Ethiopia provided for its existence.
And as far as I know, the Crown Council has awarded no "Orders". They
seem to be quite punctilious. It's the Yacobites who seem to be
inventing and handing out new "Orders".
Guy Stair Sainty
says...
If, however (as I understand the post of Bryan Maloney) the exclusion from
the succession by the late Crown Prince of his eldest son contradicted
the succession order as laid out in the Imperial Constitution, and the
expressed wishes of the last reigning Emperor, the Crown Council would
seem to be usurping the proper authority of the de jure Emperor (even though
the latter appears to be associated with some dubious characters).
Guy Stair Sainty
www.chivalricorders.org
Francois R. Velde
>wrote:
>
>> I don't understand what that Council is, nor do I understand whether the
>> Order in question emanates from that Council or from another Ethiopian
>> faction. Bryan's summary (indisputed until now) suggests that the
>> Council
>> was set up sometime after the fall of the dynasty and acts as a kind of
>> regency. I don't see how one can assert that this council is a "legal
>> source", unless the pre-1975 laws of Ethiopia provided for its existence.
>
>And as far as I know, the Crown Council has awarded no "Orders". They
>seem to be quite punctilious. It's the Yacobites who seem to be
>inventing and handing out new "Orders".
I was just following what "reghorthy" was saying (I like that nom de screen!
how about "caudfranco", "helmsmao"). He wrote:
> the award is
>still valid since it is coming from a legal source(The Ethiopian Crown
>Council).
--
François Velde
ve...@nospam.org (replace by "heraldica")
Heraldry Site: http://www.heraldica.org/
Rafal Heydel-Mankoo
> In medio rec.heraldry aperuit Reghorthy <regh...@aol.com> os suum:
> > Name calling has no place in this forum.
>
> I call spade a spade. If it makes the spade unhappy, tough for the spade.
>
"I am glad to say that I have never seen a spade. It is obvious that
our social spheres have been widely different." ;)
Rafal Heydel-Mankoo
(quoting Gwendolen's delightful retort in the Importance of Being
Earnest).
Michael F. McCartney
>>I once looked a little into the Ethiopian matter, back in the NN days
Tim McDaniel:
>Please be careful of your abbreviations. In this context, I first
>thought "NN" here meant "Negusa Negest"!
Sometimes I think TM thought so too.
One does learn odd things here - now I know where the Ferengi leader got his
name. (Don't ask - it's a character on Star Trek)
Michael Fannin McCartney
Fremont, California
(Delete "delete" from e-mail address)
Michael F. McCartney
> I must say that, back then, there
>were no Ethiopian baronets. Now *that* has some cachet.
Well, assuming it to be the equivalent of the Ulster baronets, it would have
been awarded by Mussolini to novi ricci Romanos who donated enough money to
support a platoon of carabinieri during the Italian "plantation" of Ethiopia.
Perhaps with an inescutcheon of the Mafiosi mano nero? And the title of Don...
(or would that be a ducchi nero?)
Francesino
"Michael F. McCartney" <mfmccar...@cs.comdelete> ha scritto nel
messaggio news:20020303043151...@mb-fa.news.cs.com...
It is impossible to donate money to maintain a platoon of Carabinieri, they
are part of the Italian Army. It would be the same to use his own money to
raise, say, Marines.
As for the others analogy's arguments (?) posted, I must confess I do not
catch their meaning...
H.
Cook SLC
for troops to be raised by private donation, i.e., Broyles' 36th Georgia
Infantry.
Glen Cook
>"Michael F. McCartney"
Francesino
"Cook SLC" <coo...@aol.comnojunk> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:20020303110739...@mb-cs.aol.com...
> MFMcC was speaking in the past tense. As to US practice, it was very
common
> for troops to be raised by private donation, i.e., Broyles' 36th Georgia
> Infantry.
>
> Glen Cook
>
I see... But in Italy this practice became obsolete by mid XIX century, and
so definitely inapplicable in the historical context of the previous
posting.
Regards,
H.
Cook SLC
>so definitely inapplicable in the historical context of the previous
>posting.
>
>Regards,
>
>H.
>
certainly speak for himself, I took it as a joke, utilizing an anachronistic
device. It apparently didn't translate well.
Glen Cook
Bryan Maloney
news:20020303042238...@mb-fa.news.cs.com:
> Francois R. Velde <ve...@heraldica.nospam.org> wrote:
>>>I once looked a little into the Ethiopian matter, back in the NN days
>
> Tim McDaniel:
>>Please be careful of your abbreviations. In this context, I first
>>thought "NN" here meant "Negusa Negest"!
>
> Sometimes I think TM thought so too.
>
> One does learn odd things here - now I know where the Ferengi leader
> got his name. (Don't ask - it's a character on Star Trek)
And "Ferengi" is what the folks in Constantinople called those smelly
Crusaders.
Michael F. McCartney
>While the original poster can
>certainly speak for himself, I took it as a joke, utilizing an anachronistic
>device. It apparently didn't translate well.
Yeah - what he said. I was lampooning (apparentley not very well!) the notion
of an order of baronets of Ethiopia. I have to remember that my humor
sometimes doesn't register in a literal translation to some other language (for
that matter, it sometimes doesn't translate well from my head into English!).
"Baronets" were originally conceived of by James I & VI as a device to raise
money intended (or so he said) to support garrison troops on behalf of a
colonial power; the particular titles and badges of the two historical orders
of baronets originally referred to the colony being occupied (Ulster and Nova
Scotia). Later the title was used for other reasons, ranging from honoring
good deeds or political loyalty, to padding the royal purse, though the dignity
of the title seems to have risen above its origins.
By analogy, then, an Order of Baronets of Ethiopia would be more likely to have
been founded by Mussolini to honor & generate support for his attempt to
colonize Ethiopia, than by the Ethiopians themselves. I was trying to make
this point in a more humerous way, with obviously limited success! The
reference to the "mano nero" (black hand), a Mafia symbol implying that your
time on earth is fast ending - similar to but a bit less dramatic than a
horse's head in your bed - was a play on the red hand of Ulster, the badge of
the Ulster baronets.
Thus proving that a joke which must be explained isn't all that good a joke in
the first place...so no, I ain't givin' up my day job just yet...
I
Derek Howard
> Does anyone know anything about the Ethiopian Order of Saint Anthony? From
> what I understand it is a order attached to the Ethiopian Household/ or Crown
> Council in exile in Washington DC. As the legitimate Fons Honrarum of this
> order, is the the Ethiopian Royal Household invested anyone with this
> particular order in the last one hundred years.
Guillim in the 17th century reported an order of St Anthony in
Aethiopia and his account survived verbatim to Berry's 19th century
encyclopedia. Edmondson has a slightly different account in the 18th
century. However, G produced (reproduced?) confused information which
blended reality and fiction. St Anthony was a hermit in the 3rd to 4th
centuries and G therefore stated that the "order" was instituted in
370 shortly after A's death. A operated in the deserts of Egypt as did
his immitators (cannot say followers as he was in favour of an
isolated eremitical existence), and nothing to do with Ethiopia as in
Abyssinia. It appears that some monks followed his thoughts as
expressed in his letters and survived in the Egyptian desert at least
until the Muslim invasions and maybe later. (See Penguin Dictionary of
Saints). They were never part of an order of knighthood.
There was a small and probably insignificant number of people who
emulated his way of life in Europe in the middle ages. In the 16th
century Fearne reports that in the 14th century one of the Borsele
family, count of Holland and Frisia in right of his wife, was in the
order of St Anthony and wore a gold chain with a bell and Tau cross.
F's account of this "order" is not consistent with G's a few decades
later and is presumably not G's source. G claims they wore a black
uniform and the Tau cross. There is no mention of this religious
persuasion in any other of my references.
G, knowing little of the imperial jurisdiction over Egypt in the 4th
century, attributed the institution of the "order" to the mythical
Prester John. No doubt it is this, repeated in B, that has inspired
modern inventionists to claim the "order" retrospectively for the
family of the former Ethiopian Emperors.
However, G's competence in matters non-European is very much in doubt
when you see what he writes on the next page dealing with the "orders"
of "knighthood" in pre-conquest Mexico, Peru and the West Indes. I
would dearly like to track G's sources (Spanish/Portuguese?).
Derek Howard
Bryan J. Maloney
> "Baronets" were originally conceived of by James I & VI as a device to
> raise
> money
I guess that would make the current crop of "Ethiopian Baronets" nicely
in that same money-making tradition.
m e. co m
AntiSainty wrote:
Coming from someone juvenile, small minded, gratuitously vituperative, and
cowardly. Did I miss anything?