University?
D. L. Phoenix
you'll all appreciate this new abbreviated version. Can anyone offer
particular advice on where a -serious- American heraldry student might
want to go to university (in the states!) to nurture that interest? Any
old university can offer a history degree, but which one can offer a
fine history education? And where can I find a professor who is truly
expert, or at least active, in heraldry? Honestly, I have a larger
heraldry library in my bedroom than Arizona State has in their 7 story
library. Arizona will be cheaper and easier than any other approach, but
it will also condemn me to more years of self-study. Now, mind you, I've
nearly completed two years at the local community college, so I'll
hardly be a new freshman. Don't worry what I'll do with such a degree or
how I'll pay for it. Just where can I go to get a really good education?
Thanks much.
Dan Phoenix
G. A. Cook
>particular advice on where a -serious- American heraldry student might
>want to go to university (in the states!) to nurture that interest?
Any old university can offer a history degree, but which one can offer a
>fine history education?
Remainder snipped.
I'm unaware of any university which offers a course in heraldry. I suspect
that you don't intend that to be your major. If you intend to study history,
you need to decide which era or region. Different institutions have different
strengths. Consequently, I would recommend you pick the best university for
your major that you can get into and afford, take an art history course (if you
haven't already), and look for a directed readings course that will allow you
to study heraldry independently under the supervision of a professor. I did
this in admiralty law at the graduate level. Additionally, join the Heraldry
Society and complete their certification coures. Once you have your degree,
see if the community college (I took Arizona history at Glendale Community
College w/ my wife when she was getting her AZ teaching credentials) will hire
you to teach a course in heraldry and then donate your books at your death <G>.
Glen Cook
Coo...@aol.com
D. L. Phoenix
> I'm unaware of any university which offers a course in heraldry. I suspect
> that you don't intend that to be your major.
Not my major, but certainly the focus of my studies.
> If you intend to study history,
> you need to decide which era or region. Different institutions have different
> strengths. Consequently, I would recommend you pick the best university for
> your major that you can get into and afford, take an art history course (if you
> haven't already), and look for a directed readings course that will allow you
> to study heraldry independently under the supervision of a professor. I did
> this in admiralty law at the graduate level.
Directed readings course, huh? Never heard of that. I suppose you read what the
prof tells you to, and discuss?
> Additionally, join the Heraldry
> Society and complete their certification coures.
We'll see how my elementary exam went this summer. It was anything but elementary!
> Once you have your degree,
> see if the community college (I took Arizona history at Glendale Community
> College w/ my wife when she was getting her AZ teaching credentials) will hire
> you to teach a course in heraldry and then donate your books at your death <G>.
What a place to run in to a GCC alum! I swear it's a small world, brother. I'm sure
that if a university offered Heraldry 101, they could fill at least one or two
sections. Plenty more at BYU with their genealogy focus.
Thanks for the input! I'll definitely look in to directed readings.
Dan
G. A. Cook
>the
>prof tells you to, and discuss?
Well, not necessarily. You often design your own syllabus with meetings to
discuss the work, perhaps an interim paper and a final paper.
>What a place to run in to a GCC alum!
Well, if one credit hour in AZ History qualifies, you bet.
> I'm sure
>that if a university offered Heraldry 101, they could fill at least one or
>two
>sections. Plenty more at BYU with their genealogy focus.
Hmm, now that's a thought. What books would folks suggest for a three hour
course on heraldry--those included in the recommended readings by the Heraldry
Society? You could probably crib their syllabus.
Glen Cook
Coo...@aol.com
D. L. Phoenix
> Hmm, now that's a thought. What books would folks suggest for a three hour
> course on heraldry--those included in the recommended readings by the Heraldry
> Society? You could probably crib their syllabus.
You know, I think the two would line up well. I'd imagine that that if you aimed
for the elementary examination as a goal, you'd be able to fill a pretty good
semester. It'd be a busy semester, but I think it would be just about right. Of
course, I'd have to write my own textbook. ;-)
Dan
Alasdair Baxter
<mag...@randomcreation.com> wrote:
>My first draft of this e-mail ran in to multiple paragraphs, so I'm sure
>you'll all appreciate this new abbreviated version. Can anyone offer
>particular advice on where a -serious- American heraldry student might
>want to go to university (in the states!) to nurture that interest? Any
>old university can offer a history degree, but which one can offer a
>fine history education? And where can I find a professor who is truly
>expert, or at least active, in heraldry? Honestly, I have a larger
>heraldry library in my bedroom than Arizona State has in their 7 story
>library. Arizona will be cheaper and easier than any other approach, but
>it will also condemn me to more years of self-study. Now, mind you, I've
>nearly completed two years at the local community college, so I'll
>hardly be a new freshman. Don't worry what I'll do with such a degree or
>how I'll pay for it. Just where can I go to get a really good education?
>Thanks much.
>Dan Phoenix
I would suggest you look at a UK or European university. Why not
write to the Lord Lyon, King of Arms, New Register House, Edinburgh
and ask for advice.
I suspect a thesis on some aspect of heraldry could be a useful topic
for a Ph.D.
--
Alasdair Baxter, Nottingham, UK.Tel +44 115 9705100; Fax +44 115 9423263
"It's not what you say that matters but how you say it.
It's not what you do that matters but how you do it"
Judy Gerjuoy
_Early Blazon_ and _Aspologia 3_ is a professor (of French I believe).
Judy Gerjuoy
jae...@radix.net
If the world were merely seductive, that would be easy. If it were merely
challenging, that would be no problem. But I arise in the morning torn
between a desire to improve the world, and a desire to enjoy the world.
This makes it hard to plan the day. - E. B. White
Michael F. McCartney
>I would go to State college in PA, where Dr. Gerald Brault, author of
>_Early Blazon_ and _Aspologia 3_ is a professor (of French I believe).
I assume Judy refers to Penn State University in State College (name of the
town - no kidding!) Pennsylvania. I remember it for the engineering & ag
schools, & the Bordsburg Steak House, both decidedly off-topic...(not an alum,
just a very occasional & not-recent visitor)
At least since Francois gave up the groves of academe for the counting rooms of
bureaucracy, this may be the best bet! (I vaguely recall hearing of a small
college in Florida (?) which received a bequest from a well-off heraldry buff
to set up some sort of program in heraldry - perhaps a library or at least a
special collection? - but not a ripple recently...)
Michael Fannin McCartney
Fremont, California
Brian M. Scott
wrote:
>I would go to State college in PA, where Dr. Gerald Brault, author of
>_Early Blazon_ and _Aspologia 3_ is a professor (of French I believe).
He may be getting close to retirement by now, though. I believe that
Alan Manning, who edited the Argentaye Tract, was a student of
Brault's. He seems to be in the Département de langues, linguistique
et traduction of the Université Laval. His main interest is
translation, but he has published a few more articles on heraldry.
(See <http://www.fl.ulaval.ca/lli/AManning.htm>.) Unfortunately, a
quick glance at the history program doesn't suggest much strength in
medieval history. (I realize that the original request was for a
school in the States.)
Brian M. Scott
Michael F. McCartney
university. Why not
>write to the Lord Lyon, King of Arms, New Register House, Edinburgh
>and ask for advice.
A long shot, but I seem to recall that at least one Scottish university offers
off-campus (i.e. in the US) courses, probably in business or
technology/science. While these subjects are not what you want, a school that
already has its feet wet might be more open to the idea of "correspondence"
courses abroad, along the line of Glen's suggested "directed readings" than a
stick-in-the-Scottish-mud school. (IIRC I saw a small ad about the off-campus
offerings in a business publication aimed at an international audience - not
that I recall the name of the magazine or anything really helpful!)
>I suspect a thesis on some aspect of heraldry could be a useful topic
>for a Ph.D.
IIRC one or more of the Scottish heralds (dunno about the English) did just
that...while recall is fuzzy (to match my chin) Moncrieff and Pottinger come to
mind, as well as one or both of the Inneses. IIRC Moncrieff's was for a legal
degree, since heraldry is still a small-but-active part of the Scots legal
system. Pottinger's would likely have been in fine arts, or possibly art
history. Check an old Who's Who...
I wonder if there is an on-line listing of doctoral theses that one could
search for "heraldry" to see if anyone has already plowed that ground in the
US? I would suspect that the most likely majors would be art/art history and
European history...or maybe a highly focused look at early colonial American
history.
D. L. Phoenix
first visited, apparently the Officers of Arms have degrees mostly in history,
classics, and law. I'm a history major, and looking hard at law school afterwards,
so that's all covered.
As for European universities, I'm already halfway through here in the states so
I'd lose a good chunk of time and money going over there now (and my French is...
how you say... mauvaise.) I was rumbling Oxford around in the back of my head for
grad school though. They have a heraldry club of some sort, as I recall. And I
don't think anyone there would bat an eye if they knew that was my interest. Over
here I tend to get blank stares from teachers. ("Heraldry? In Arizona? Kid, you've
got a hard lesson coming.")
I have absolutely no background in art history and I'm terrified that if I went
that route somebody might ask me to draw, or worse PAINT something! (I work in an
art supply store and haven't put brush to canvas since junior high, and that was
under duress.) I've discovered the fine language of blazon allows me to be visually
creative without actually having to have any talent. Thank heaven for heraldry.
Dan
michael...@my-deja.com
London when I
> first visited, apparently the Officers of Arms have degrees mostly in
history,
> classics, and law. I'm a history major, and looking hard at law
school afterwards,
> so that's all covered.
> As for European universities, I'm already halfway through here in
the states so
> I'd lose a good chunk of time and money going over there now (and my
French is...
> how you say... mauvaise.) I was rumbling Oxford around in the back of
my head for
> grad school though. They have a heraldry club of some sort, as I
recall.
Cambridge University also have a Heraldic & Genealogical Society whose
rather informative website can be found at
http://www.cam.ac.uk/societies/cuhags/. Perhaps they'd be able to give
advice on how to study Heraldry at University, if there is a way to?
>And I
> don't think anyone there would bat an eye if they knew that was my
interest. Over
> here I tend to get blank stares from teachers. ("Heraldry? In
Arizona? Kid, you've
> got a hard lesson coming.")
> I have absolutely no background in art history and I'm terrified
that if I went
> that route somebody might ask me to draw, or worse PAINT something!
(I work in an
> art supply store and haven't put brush to canvas since junior high,
and that was
> under duress.) I've discovered the fine language of blazon allows me
to be visually
> creative without actually having to have any talent. Thank heaven for
heraldry.
>
> Dan
>
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Alasdair Baxter
<mag...@randomcreation.com> wrote:
> Well, from a discussion with whomever was on duty at the CoA in London when I
>first visited, apparently the Officers of Arms have degrees mostly in history,
>classics, and law. I'm a history major, and looking hard at law school afterwards,
>so that's all covered.
Totally irrelevant to heraldry...but...if you get a UK law degree
(LLB), you can take the New York Bar examination and qualify as an
attorney without further study or training.
If you get into Oxford to study law I can assure you that it is one of
the best courses in the country.
> As for European universities, I'm already halfway through here in the states so
>I'd lose a good chunk of time and money going over there now (and my French is...
>how you say... mauvaise.) I was rumbling Oxford around in the back of my head for
>grad school though. They have a heraldry club of some sort, as I recall. And I
>don't think anyone there would bat an eye if they knew that was my interest.
While visiting the town of Warwick last week-end, I visited St. Mary's
Church which has masses of heraldry and the tombs and relics of
ancient nobility. One of the guides, an Eng Lit graduate from
Belfast, said that there had been a large contingent from Oxford
University there recently studying the heraldry.
G. A. Cook
>(LLB), you can take the New York Bar examination and qualify as an
>attorney without further study or training.
If you are a member of a U.S. bar, you can sit the Law Society solictor's exam
for England and Wales. Parts of the exam may even be waived, i.e., common law
head.
Glen Cook
Coo...@aol.com
C. S. T. Mackie in Acadia Park
I am reminded that heraldry is a branch of law, and of civil law, as compared
to common law. If one were to study European history during one's pre-law
studies, and then focus on civil law (as much as one were able) during one's
law studies, I should think that a solid foundation for the science of
heraldry.
Yours truly
C. Mackie
______________________________
C. S. T. Mackie in Acadia Park
University of British Columbia
G. A. Cook
>studies, and then focus on civil law (as much as one were able) during one's
>law studies, I should think that a solid foundation for the science of
>heraldry.
1. Law is not a second degree in many countries.
2. I don't know of any "civil" law course that would help w/ heraldry. Did
you have a particular one in mind?
Glen Cook
Coo...@aol.com
Elias Granqvist
wrote:
>... I don't know of any "civil" law course that would help w/ heraldry. Did
>you have a particular one in mind?
When I studied law at Stockholm University, heraldic arms were
mentioned in one sentence as an example of intellectual property, in
the main book used in the course for intellectual property right. That
was all.
Elias Granqvist
http://www.users.wineasy.se/elias/