Scottish Feudal Baronies - Etiquette & Protocol
Sally
Scotland whatsoever and who has bought a Feudal Barony.
Is it considered 'bad form' for him to use the title 'Baron Of ...'
as his everyday name (whether or not he is entitled to), particularly
in England, where he is obviously allowing people to assume that it is
an English title.
Sorry if this is OT but I have been following the (connected) thread
on 'Prince Michael' and feel that I would get the correct answer here.
Thanks.
Sally.
Cook SLC
>as his everyday name (whether or not he is entitled to), particularly
>in England, where he is obviously allowing people to assume that it is
>an English title.
Is it obvious? Precisely what style is he using?
Glen A. Cook
glen...@cooklaw.org
Sally
I'd rather not give any names (particularly as I've just seen your
firm's homepage!) but -
they style themseleves the Baron And Baroness Of XXXXXXXX.
His given name effectively doesn't exist anymore except on his
passport and Birth Certificate.
There is no such place as XXXXXXXX and there never has been.
If pressed - he will say that after a great deal of research he
discovered that he 'was heir to a title through Scottish ancestors'.
Complete baloney - he bought it like the 'Baron Singh' I read about in
here recently.
No such title as XXXXXXX has ever been in abeyance, anywhere.
The new Burke's now lists him as a Feudal Baron whose arms were
matriculated by the LL a couple of years ago.
I have no knowledge of Heraldry \ The Scottish Barony other than the
odd bits I've picked up from this recently discovered excellent NG via
Google.
The reason for my interest in this character (whom I know) is that by
a million to one chance a friend of mine who has an arthritic
complaint sat at the LAX check-in four four hours for a free upgrade
to Business Class that was on offer (for a trans-Atlantic flight) only
to be turfed out of her seat literally two minutes before take off.
The American stewardess took great delight in evicting her in favour
of a member of 'the British Aristocracy' - Baron XXXXXXXXX.
There were no decent seats left by then and her flight was a
nightmare.
I don't have a problem with people buying titles if that's what they
wish to do, and if he has changed the name on his driver's licence,
credit cards etc then obviously it must be legal to do so.
Bottom line - next time I have to listen to the 'how fortunate I am to
be titled ' bit, I want to pipe up that if I wanted one then I'd buy
one as he did and then dress him down for the 'improper' way in which
he uses it.
Hence theinterest in etiquette, protocol and assumption - the title
itself is no doubt quite legal.
Thanks for your time Glen,
Have a nice day.
Sally.
James Dempster
>I am thinking here of a person who has no family connection with
>Scotland whatsoever and who has bought a Feudal Barony.
>
>Is it considered 'bad form' for him to use the title 'Baron Of ...'
>as his everyday name (whether or not he is entitled to), particularly
>in England, where he is obviously allowing people to assume that it is
>an English title.
>
Yes - especially if not entitled to it. Even then, I know at least
four feudal barons (one 3 or 4 times over) who would never use such a
style except in jest or if someone was *really* pissing them off and
the high handed approach was the only thing to do. Even then, the use
of a title doesn't really impress many people these days. In many
circumstances it could have the opposite effect to the one intended.
Of course there's not much you can do about it. Sniggering is good. If
an acquaintence starts doing it, the cut direct is suitable etquette.
James
James Dempster
Briefadel and tradespeople to the side door please.
Cook SLC
and Baroness of XXXXX) recently in the Camperdown Diaries column (it is no
longer running) of one of the Scottish magazines.
I would assume there once was a place such as XXXXX, else how would there have
been a barony. And, until the land reform legislation comes into effect
(probably next year), he would have been required to purchase the caput (a bit
of land, anyway) with the barony.
Like J. Dempster, I don't know of any of the feudal barons of my acquaintance
who note they have a baronage. In formal Scottish matters they may use the
territorial title, i.e., Billy Upstart of XXXXX, but other than on their grant
of arms, I'm hard pressed to think of another place they have used the style.
Indeed, in looking at Debrett's Correct Form, it doesn't sanction the use of
Baron, but only the territorial title.
How very boorish of them. Next time he plays that bit, I'd say call him on it
with, "How much are those baronages going for these days? I know one American
who said they were only £40,000, but you know how neuveau riche the Americans
can be. Surely you didn't pay that much for yours."
Glen A. Cook
glen...@cooklaw.org
Derek Howard
I was intrigued by the possible scale of the trade. How many feudal
barons are there (excluding feudal baronies hidden behind peerage
titles). A quick check on the <http://www.burkes-landed-gentry.com/>
pages produced the following statistic - some 90 (actually 89 as a
life baroness is included in the list) of whom all but 4 are
recognised by the Lord Lyon having matriculated arms. A search of the
years in which they have matriculated arms with the LL for the last
few years reveals:
1950s 1
1960s 5
1970s 15
1980-86 18
1988 3
1989 0
1990 2
1991 1
1992 5
1993 2
1994 3
1995 7
1996 4
1997 5
1998 7
1999 5
2000 1
2001 2
Assuming that matriculations of arms follow soon after purchase and
acknowledging that not all are in fact the result of purchase, it
appears that, unless Burkes are not up to date with the Lyon register,
the high point of the trade through the 1990s appears to be tailing
off. Perhaps we shall see a price fall in the near future, especially
after the legal changes come into force.
As to the original question, the names and style or titles are given
in the free-access parts of the on-line Burkes and are therefore easy
for much of the world to check. To use other forms of address is
therefore very silly indeed.
The most recent names (matriculation with LL in 1999 or later) listed
in Burkes appear to be :
Geoffrey George Boot, feudal Baron of Waughton;
Robert Ogilvie McVeigh Crabbe, feudal Baron of Fordyce;
Gordon Kerr of Westside, feudal Baron of Newtongarry;
Dr Gordon Stanley Clifford Park Wills Prestoungrange, (formerly
Wills), feudal Baron of Prestoungrange;
Richard Wellkowitz of Blackford, feudal Baron of Blackford;
Dr Julian Gawain Clifford Wills, feudal Baron of Dolphinstoun;
Hon Peregrine David Euan Malcolm Moncreiffe of that Ilk, Fiar of the
feudal Barony of Moncreiffe and feudal Baron of Easter Moncreiffe; and
David Lacey Garrison, feudal Baron of Tranent and Cockenzie, East
Lothian
Clearly there are one or two carrying with them an ancient heritage
and many others not. I was impressed by the number with addresses
outside Scotland and the UK - in France, Monaco, Italy, Australia, US,
etc. There is something against the grain in seeing this sort of
Scottish national heritage being bought by persons who seem to have
little or no connection with Scotland bar the readiness to spend money
on the frills.
Derek Howard
Derek Howard
I was intrigued by the possible scale of the trade. How many feudal
Bob
however, there are far fewer feudal barons than I was expecting to
see. By the negative tone of so many posters in this Group, one would
think the sale of legitimate Scottish baronies was enormously
widespread. But, if what I have read is correct, then over the past
couple of decades, it seems there really have been very few baronial
titles recognized by the Lord Lyon.
Of the 89 you pointed out:
1. Most (overwhelmingly) live in the UK; and of that group the larger
percentage actually live in Scotland.
2. I didn't sit and take count, but those with foreign addresses seem
to number only around 15 or so.
3. Many of those living overseas may not have purchased their barony
but inherited it. A few may even be Scottish expats living abroad.
4. That some people with non-Scottish sounding names may have roots
from their mother's side of the family, and baronies may have passed
through daughters.
5. That we cannot presume that someone living abroad has no interest
in, nor connection with, Scotland. Family issues aside, anyone who
pays taxes or supports Scotland in other ways have connections. I
would think this might be in the form of supporting Scottish
charities, or may come in many other forms. And, of that very small
minority that appear to be foreigners, some I suspect, actually own
castles - and not nominal patches of land - and are investing their
money to restore or preserve these previously neglected estates, which
is good for Scotland. I think the Lord Lyon realizes that, and would
agree.
I have read that the LL will not grant Arms of baronial rank to
applicants UNLESS there's some connection beyond merely purchasing a
barony, and will reject any application that appears to be from
someone a bit "shady." Ditto, inclusion into the Landed Gentry of
Scotland - I think if the barons are included in the publication,
there's more to these people than meet the eyes.
Finally - and this is a sticking point with many people - baronies
throughout history were ALWAYS meant to be passed down and all the
harping in the world won't change that legal fact. Peerages have also
been bought "under the table" for even larger sums but we hear less
derision about Lord such-and-such whose political donation "earned"
his rank.
In conclusion, I believe that IF the baron is recognized by both the
LL and is listed in the Landed Gentry of Scotland, then we should give
them a little less mocking, and refrain from second-guessing who they
are and what their motives may be (unless we know the individual
personally.)
There are a lot of people in this world who have gained social
standing (a rough equivalent of social "rank") by merely becoming a
pop singers, or models, or actors, or by marrying a millionaire, and
expect treatment as if they were royals. If we select one small
select group for ridicule - in this case, feudal barons - whom we know
nothing about on the personal level - and ignore all others in this
world who seek "special status" (probably a majority of us wish we had
it,) then WE are showing our haughtiness. Those "legitimite" feudal
barons; whether or not they purchased their barony, may not be
superior to common folk, but they're not, and shouldn't be, treated as
somehow being inferior or contemptible. A handfull may deserve
contempt but I, for one, am unwilling to stereotype them as a group
based on a few "bad apples."
Regards,
Bob
dho...@skynet.be (Derek Howard) wrote in message >
Michael F. McCartney
even a snippet of real dirt (land, that is, not scandals - I suppose that
connection is still possible...)
If the use of a territorial designation (McX or Y) requires the actual
ownership of at least a portion of the lands of Y, will it still be possible
for a new feudal baron to style hinself "of Y" if he has purchased the title
without the land? If not, then the only designation possible would be "McX,
feudal baron of Y" or some such...
Michael Fannin McCartney
Fremont, California
(Delete "delete" from e-mail address)
Cook SLC
>If the use of a territorial designation (McX or Y) requires the actual
>ownership of at least a portion of the lands of Y, will it still be possible
>for a new feudal baron to style hinself "of Y" if he has purchased the title
>without the land? If not, then the only designation possible would be "McX,
>feudal baron of Y" or some such...
>
>
>Michael Fannin McCartney
>Fremont, California
1. Just to be clear, use of the territorial designation does not require that
descendants still own the land.
2. Similar to your supposition, I know of an agent w/ Lyon Court who has also
questioned whether anyone purchasing appropriate land after the implementation
date can still use a territorial title. It is a feudal title and, feudalism
being abolished, he argues that would abolish future territorial titles. As
noted, however, that the legislation preserves the title of feudal baron. I
expect that the "of Y" style will continue, but the point is well made.
3. I'm unaware of Lyon indicating tha territorial titles based on land
purchased after the implementation date would not be recognized in grants.
That would be of some import. I'd suggest that office is probably the arbiter
on the style of the landless barony as well.
Glen A. Cook
glen...@cooklaw.org
Derek Howard
All very valid points and well taken. I for one though was not trying
to mock the group nor suggest that they were bad apples. The list of
recent examples includes, for one example only, a Moncreiffe barony
the legitimacy of whom no-one could query. But it also includes
purchased titles. The mixture is what I sought to show by citing the
recent examples. However, unquestionably there has been a trade in
these titles and high prices fetched. My checking of the list was in
the spirit of enquiry.
I still feel it runs against the grain if even a single barony is
purchased for what I consider the wrong reasons of social snobbery.
However, I am not aware of anyone on this group seeking to establish
feudal barons as inferior - methinks you protest too much. But those
that themselves try from time to time to use styles to which they are
not entited for their impact on others (attempting to make a feudal
barony sound like a peerage and implying they are members of the
nobility) are just crying out to be taken down a peg or two.
As for peerage titles purchased by political contributions - yes they
do get attacked, and deservedly, by a much wider group than the
regulars of rec.heraldry and in the national press - though it is the
politicians who nominate them that deserve more criticism. It is
however often hard to distinguish between those merely "buying" a
title and those who will be politically active and supportive of a
party in the HoL's constitutional role.
Pop singers and others also get lampooned mercilessly (eg a certain
footballer-model combo). We should not seek to protect one group from
being examined by those interested in the aspects that set them apart
(in this case the only real element is the recognition and
matriculation by LL with appropriate chapeau). It is legitimate to ask
who these people are, what are the connections, etc. It is also valid
to establish the level of trade and its hopeful decline. Especially
after it has had such press coverage - not least by the LL ensuring a
profile in the recent land reform legislation - and commercial
organisations attempting to raise the market.
Derek Howard
Raymond J W Morrell
> His given name effectively doesn't exist anymore except on his
> passport and Birth Certificate.
In Canada, you could have your Canadian passport show a name other than one
by which you were born, if you:
* Marry
* Change your name legally, and provide proof of this
* Are known in your community by another name, and can provide notarized
documents and prescribed forms completed by TWO persons who know you by that
name
I am sure other countries have similar flexibile name conventions for
passports, although in four years of working as a customs officer in
Canada's busiest airport, I have never, to my recollection, seen a passport
bearing a name which included a title of peerage, feudal titles, or anything
other than their given and surnames.
RJWM
Biggar
An oldish thread but nonetheless interesting!
'Briefadel to the rear entrance' would be, if really ever on a sign, of
course appalling snobbery. James is of course joking, I know.
My Uradel relatives would never dream of being so rude and vulgar.
Briefadel is simply not worth mentioning..(yes that *is* a joke!), and
like everyone in my family I was brought up to be polite to all,
whether dowager duchess or dustman. With regard to feudal baronies, I
wonder how many are really purchased because the owner wants to pose
with a title. Posing can come a lot cheaper! I suspect that most are
purchased because the buyer has an interest in Scotland, history,
armory, tradition or all four of these. It is ungentlemanly to
attribute motives to people when one does not know them. If someone
wishes to know why person A purchased barony B then one must asl
him/her. And if anyone wants to ask me, then feel free to do so!
Charles Ross of Biggar
Stephen
probably be interested in looking at a Scottish Barony or an English
Lordship of a Manor. The top of my wish list would be those areas
connected with my family history - Tweeddale and the West County. If
there were none available or they were beyond my financial reach I
would look in another area/region. I have a passion for history (in
addition to heraldry & genealogy) and so I would want to learn as much
as possible about the history of any barony/manor I bought. As for
posing - one of the greatest "crimes" when I was at school was to be a
"swank" and I'm afraid that particular doctrine has rather stuck with
me.
However, I have a few more pressing financial commitments starting with
three children....... ;-)
Yours aye
Stephen
Lord of all he Surveys - Well, as far as the fence post and shared with
the mortgage company.
georgemb...@gmail.com
George