My arms

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as...@aurora.alaska.edu

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Apr 29, 1994, 5:49:13 AM4/29/94
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If this is the wrong forum, please excuse me.......

_____________________
I wonder if you could help me, | \ O / |
I am designing a coat of arms | \ Azu | re / |
for myself which reads as such: | \ ___|___ / |
|\ \ |G| / /|
Azure, a saltire vert, | \ \ |U| / / |
Emblazoned with a sword palewise | A\ \|L|/ /A |
broken (erased) Gules. | z \ ||| / z |
| u > Vert < u |
I believe this is the \ r / \ r /
correct form. But to be sure, \e/ ||| \e/
Here is a picture...... \ /| |\ /
\ / |E| \ /
I want three things with this, \ / |S| \ /
1. Accuracy \Azu| |re /
2. Simplicity \ | /
3. Authenticity \ _ _ /
'
Also where can I go to get these checked out? I plan to register these
arms with the Lord Lyon and I don't want to have to spend multiple thousands of
pounds on them, just to have them thrown back at me on a techniqality!

-John Horner
As...@Aurora.alaslka.edu


Joshua Mittleman

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Apr 29, 1994, 1:06:07 PM4/29/94
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as...@aurora.alaska.edu writes:

> I wonder if you could help me, I am designing a coat of arms for myself
> which reads as such:

> Azure, a saltire vert, Emblazoned with a sword palewise broken
> (erased) Gules.

> I want three things with this,

> 1. Accuracy
> 2. Simplicity
> 3. Authenticity

Authenticity in what sense?

Your design places color on color; in modern English armory, that is
considered a violation of the rule of tinctures. I do not know if the Lyon
office requires adherence to that rule, but I expect that they do.

You can find an explanation of the rule of tinctures in any introductory
heraldry text. I recommend A. C. Fox-Davies "Aq Complete Guide to Heraldry."

===========================================================================
Josh Mittleman (mit...@watson.ibm.com)
J2-C28 T.J. Watson Research Center, PO Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY 10598

Tom Sulyok

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Apr 29, 1994, 11:38:52 AM4/29/94
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as...@aurora.alaska.edu wrote:
: If this is the wrong forum, please excuse me.......

: -John Horner
: As...@Aurora.alaslka.edu
something about "thou shalt not have metal on metal and tincture on
tincture."??" :-((( I don't know if this rule still applies.
Tom Sulyok

Joshua Brandon Holden

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Apr 29, 1994, 2:53:24 PM4/29/94
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The device you have designed ("Azure, a saltire vert, overall a sword
palewise fracted gules") is not bad, but has a few problems. First, as
someone pointed out, you do not generally have a colored saltire on a
colored field; one of them should be a metal (argent or Or). There have
been exceptions from time to time, and I don't know what Lyon's rules are,
but changing the saltire to, say, Or, would probably be more authentic.
Also, "erased" is not the term for a broken sword; it means something which
cuts off and does not start again. "Fracted" is probably what you want,
althought it's not clear from the emblazon (picture) exactly how you wnt
the broken edges to look.

---josh
--

Joshua Brandon Holden Brown Math Department bra...@math.brown.edu
"It's never too late to have a happy childhood!" ---Cutter John
YAZ/socrates

Elliot Nesterman

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Apr 29, 1994, 11:18:38 PM4/29/94
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In article <1994Apr29...@aurora.alaska.edu>, as...@aurora.alaska.edu writes:
[deletion]
>Azure, a saltire vert, Emblazoned with a sword palewise
>broken (erased) Gules.
[deletion]

>I plan to register these
>arms with the Lord Lyon and I don't want to have to spend multiple thousands of
>pounds on them, just to have them thrown back at me on a techniqality!
> -John Horner

Oh, where to begin. Color on color has already been mentioned.
As Horner is an English name I assume that you have Scots ancestors hiding in
the line of your mother or some grandmother or other, else the Lyon Court will
not entertain your plea. Once you have shown Scots ancestry the arms you can
petition for will need to be related to either your most recent armigerous
ancestor's or those of your clan chief. _All_ Scots belong to a clan, by
definition. If you can show a Scots ancestor, but cannot show any definite
genealogical relationship to an armiger, you can recieve arms of a stranger in
blood. These will not be a difference of clan arms, but rather a composition
which is related in design. As well, though I'm not absolutely certain, I
believe what is done is that the Lord Lyon authorises a posthumous, retroactive
grant of arms to your ancestor, which then enables you to inherit them.
So, what's your clan? Lacking that, what is the name of your most recent
Scots forebear? Sorry, in real armory you cannot just make them up, I'm afraid.

Elliot Nesterman ESN4616@NYUACF
Institute of Fine Arts esn...@acfcluster.nyu.edu
New York University standard disclaimers apply
***baccalaureus humilis solum sed melior me facere experior***

Fritz Lehmann

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May 2, 1994, 2:58:54 AM5/2/94
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Regarding the prohibition of metal on metal, or color
on color: an exception is made for the Pope, since he is
the Vicar of Christ, Bishop of Rome, and Prince Over All
Earthly Princes and Emperors. His arms are or and argent, and
his flag is white and yellow. He also gets
to wear a triple crown (in his tiara) instead of a single
crown for a king or a double crown for an emperor.
The only higher-ranking arms are those which were proposed
to be used by God Himself; these are depicted in Computers and
Mathematics with Applications (journal), v. 23, no.2, page 4,
1992.

Yours truly, Fritz Lehmann
4282 Sandburg Way, Irvine, California 92715, U.S.A.
Tel.: (714)-733-0566 Fax: (714)-733-0506 fr...@rodin.wustl.edu

====================================================================


Alsos

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May 2, 1994, 11:59:02 PM5/2/94
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In article <Cp166...@hawnews.watson.ibm.com>, mit...@watson.ibm.com (Joshua
Mittleman) writes:

Can anyone recommend a bookstore in New York City that sells books on
Heraldry. I've had the toughest time finding a bookstore that has anything
on Heraldry in stock. In one place, the clerk didn't even know what it was.
"Hera.....what?" , " check the history section"

Thanks for your help
Al...@aol.com

as...@aurora.alaska.edu

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May 3, 1994, 12:05:22 PM5/3/94
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_____________________
| \ O / |
| \ Arg | ent / | Oops, I got my tinctures mixed with my
| \ ___|___ / | metals.... I meant argent not azure.
|\ \ |G| / /| How's this one. (corrected and
|A\ \ |U| / /A| emmended.
|r \ \|L|/ / r| Argent, a saltire vert,
|g \ ||| / g| emblazed a sword palewise
|e > Verte < e| broken FRACTED gules.
\n / \ n/
\t/ ||| \t/
\ /| |\ / Sorry for the mixup and thanks for the
\ / |E| \ / comments!
\ / |S| \ /
\Arg| |ent/
\ | /
\ _ _ /
'
-John Horner
As...@Aurora.alaska.edu

Joshua Mittleman

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May 3, 1994, 1:11:00 PM5/3/94
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In article <2q4i66$i...@search01.news.aol.com>, al...@aol.com (Alsos) writes:

> Can anyone recommend a bookstore in New York City that sells books on
> Heraldry.

The Strand Bookstore always has a few books in stock in their heraldry
section, which is in the back on the right as you enter. There used to be
a place called Sky Books somewhere in mid-town which was a military
bookstore, that carried a range of heraldic texts. I don't know if they
are still in business. And the Metropolitan Museum of Art bookstore (and
the store in their branch at the Cloisters) usually has a couple heraldry
texts as well.

Joshua Brandon Holden

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May 3, 1994, 4:37:07 PM5/3/94
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In article <1994May3...@aurora.alaska.edu> as...@aurora.alaska.edu writes:

Argent, a saltire vert,
emblazed a sword palewise
broken FRACTED gules.

"Fracted" *means* broken; I'm still not sure what you are trying to show
here.

Also, an "emblazon" (I assume emblazed is a typo for emblazoned) is a
heraldic drawing. I think what you mean is "Argent, a saltire vert,
overall a sword palewise fracted gules." Overall indicates that it is
partly on the field and also partly on the saltire.

Elliot Nesterman

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May 2, 1994, 12:50:59 PM5/2/94
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In article <2q28be$k...@bigfoot.wustl.edu>, fr...@rodin.wustl.edu (Fritz Lehmann) writes:
> Regarding the prohibition of metal on metal, or color
>on color: an exception is made for the Pope, since he is
>the Vicar of Christ, Bishop of Rome, and Prince Over All
>Earthly Princes and Emperors. His arms are or and argent, and
>his flag is white and yellow. He also gets
>to wear a triple crown (in his tiara) instead of a single
>crown for a king or a double crown for an emperor.
>The only higher-ranking arms are those which were proposed
>to be used by God himself; these are depicted in Computers and

>Mathematics with Applications (journal), v. 23, no.2, page 4,
>1992.
Several points,
You are confusing the arms of the Pope with the arms of Vatican City and with
the flag of the same. Each Pope has personal arms, which will invariably follow
heraldic convention, even if not in perhaps the finest style, cf. arms of
John-Paul II.
The arms of the Stato della Citta del Vaticano are not Or and argent. The
shield is gules with the crossed keys of St. Peter and the triple tiara in
silver and gold.
The flag of the Vatican is indeed yellow and white. However it has been so
only since 1808. Prior to that the flag was gules as the arms still are. In
1808 Napoleon amalgamated the pontiff's army into his own and so the Pope, Pius
VII, thought that new colors were necessary. He chose yellow and white. These
colors were used for various flags of the Pontifical State from their approval
in 1825 until the State was incorporated into Italy in 1870. When the state was
revived as Vatican City in 1929 the yellow and white flag was reborn. The
modern flag was first officially hoisted on June 8, 1929. (Keep in mind that the
conventions of flag use differ significantly from armorial conventions
regarding the shield proper.)
I assume when you say,"double crown for an emperor," you mean a closed
crown. If you indeed know of an imperial crown composed of two superimposed
crowns, as opposed to a crown closed by arches, I'd appreciate the reference. I
have a particular interest in crowns, both as emblems of sovereignty/nobility
and as jewelry.
I assume, again, that the arms of God you mention are the well known Arma
Trinitatis or Scutum Fidei: ___________
(Oh, these darned | O-----O |
ASCII diagrams!) | |\ /| |
| | \ / | |
| | O | |
\ \ | / /
\ \|/ /
\ O /
\___/
Vale.

Francois Velde

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May 4, 1994, 7:18:24 PM5/4/94
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mit...@watson.ibm.com (Joshua Mittleman) writes:

|Fritz Lehmann writes:
|> Regarding the prohibition of metal on metal, or color on color: an
|> exception is made for the Pope...
|
|An exception is made by whom?
|
|The importance of the rules of tinctures is grossly overstated by
|English-language heraldicists. Even in England, "violations" of the
|so-called rule were not uncommon in medieval and Renaissance heraldry. In
|other countries, they were common and in some cases predominant.

Pastoureau claims that only in Castille and the kingdom of Grenada does
the frequency of violations rise above 2%. But there are a number of
well-known violations; Woodward cites 26 on p.752 of his Treatise.

--
Francois Velde

Elliot Nesterman

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May 3, 1994, 12:12:59 PM5/3/94
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In article <2q4i66$i...@search01.news.aol.com>, al...@aol.com (Alsos) writes:
This post is confusing to me. Josh, is this Alsos person you? IF not, who is
this Alsos person? Certainly you, Mr. Mittleman, know all the best shops for
heraldry here in town. Working on the assumption that Alsos is not Arval I
append a few bookshops.
Strand Books, Broadway and 12th Street.
The mother of all used bookstores. I have found treasures here.
Hacker Art Books, 57th Street bet. 5 & 6 Ave. Fifth floor of building.
Used and new art books. Not cheap, but not horribly expensive.
Academy Books, 18th Street bet. 5 & 6 Ave.
Used books. Can't tell what you may find. Down the block from Barnes and
Nobles main store.
Gryphon Books, Broadway round about 82nd Street.
Mostly literary but occasional 18th, 19th & early 20th cent. heraldry vols.
Ruby's Book Sale, Chambers Street off Church.
A grabbag of used and remaindered books.
Pageant Books, 9th Street bet. 3 & 4 Ave.
The bookstore in _Hannah and Her Sisters_. Good selection of prints also.
Argosy Books, 59 Street bet. Park and Lexington Ave.
A fine used book store, also prints.
Ursus Rare Books, Madison Ave. bet. 76 & 77 Street. 2nd Floor
Remarkably expensive specialist in rare and art books. Here's where to look
for those first edition treatises.

Joshua Mittleman

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May 2, 1994, 10:47:22 AM5/2/94
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Fritz Lehmann writes:

> Regarding the prohibition of metal on metal, or color on color: an

> exception is made for the Pope...

An exception is made by whom?

The importance of the rules of tinctures is grossly overstated by
English-language heraldicists. Even in England, "violations" of the
so-called rule were not uncommon in medieval and Renaissance heraldry. In
other countries, they were common and in some cases predominant.

===========================================================================

Elliot Nesterman

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May 5, 1994, 1:36:35 PM5/5/94
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In article <2qb5vh...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu>, ve...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Francois Velde) writes:
>French heraldry uses the term "cousu" (literally, sown) to get around the
^^^^-sp. sewn, a small typo
but significant
>I wonder when the Jerusalem arms that we know were first adopted (since the
>kingdom predates heraldry).
> Francois Velde
Funny you should ask, again. (I tried this post earlier and had some nasty
codes zip in from somewhere and lock my keyboard. So if this is a repost,
sorry.) The earliest Cross of Jerusalem I have seen, from the Latin East
itself, is on a coin of Amaury, Pretender to the throne of Cyprus, of c. 1304.
This postdates the Latin Kingdom by 13 years. Rudt de Collenberg, in his
article on Jerusalem heraldry in the Actes du IIe Colloque International de
l'Heraldique, opines that the common emblem for the Kingdom in its own time was
arg. a cross gu.
Of course, there are earlier Jerusalem Crosses in France. The two earliest
published are in the Dean Tract, c.1300 "l'escu d'argent croiselee d'or a une
croise potente d'or", and in the Wijnbergen Armorial, c. 1280 which shows a
shield arg. crusilly plain and a cross potent or.
However, and this is brand new news, there is in the collection of the
Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York, a gemellion with the arms of Jerusalem
which probably dates earlier. A gemellion is a shallow bowl, made in pairs
hence the name, used for the washing of the celebrant's hands during the Mass.
Quantities of them were made in Limoges in enamelled and gilt copper. The one
in the Met's collection, which I am working on for publication, shows in the
central roundel in the bottom of the bowl, arg. crusilly and a cross potent or.
The Met's dossier calls the piece 3rd quarter of the 13th cent. This puts it
from 5 - 25 years earlier than the Wijnbergen Armorial. Through the summer I
will attempt to place it more securely within the corpus of Limoges enamels of
the 13th century. This should culminate in an article somewhere, but you read it
here first, as they say.

Francois Velde

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May 5, 1994, 12:13:37 PM5/5/94
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gkob...@edvzbb2.ben-fh.tuwien.ac.at writes:
>PMJI, but wasn't the arms of the king of Jerusalem also an exception? I don't
>know the English term, but in German those arms are called "Raetselwappen" or
>"Puzzle-arms", because they often had a special reason to violate the rules of
>tincture.

In French, they are called "armes a enquerre", because they were supposed
to prompt you to inquire about their origins.

Yes, the Jerusalem arms are the best-known violation, but there are others.
Woodward cites examples from Germany mostly, but also France, Spain, Italy,
Denmark, Netherlands.

French heraldry uses the term "cousu" (literally, sown) to get around the

problem (or signal that this is no mistake). For example, Sandberg
(Netherlands) as blazoned in Rietstap is:
d'argent au chevron cousu d'or accompagne de trois trefles de sinople
(Argent, a chevron or between three trefoils vert).
The use of the word "cousu" is common for chiefs: e.g. the arms of Paris,
which have a chief of France "cousu" onto a field of gules.

I wonder when the Jerusalem arms that we know were first adopted (since the
kingdom predates heraldry).

--
Francois Velde

gkob...@edvzbb2.ben-fh.tuwien.ac.at

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May 5, 1994, 1:34:49 PM5/5/94
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In article <2q9ag0...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> ve...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Francois Velde) writes:
>From: ve...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Francois Velde)
>Subject: Re: My arms
>Date: 4 May 1994 23:18:24 GMT

>--
> Francois Velde

PMJI, but wasn´t the arms of the king of Jerusalem also an exception? I don´t

know the English term, but in German those arms are called "Raetselwappen" or
"Puzzle-arms", because they often had a special reason to violate the rules of
tincture.

GKK

Alsos

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May 5, 1994, 6:52:02 PM5/5/94
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In article <2q5t6b$7...@cmcl2.NYU.EDU>, esn...@ACFcluster.NYU.EDU (Elliot
Nesterman) writes:

> This post is confusing to me Josh, is this Alsos person you? If not, who
> is this Alsos person?

Hi, Elliot (sorry Josh)
I didn't mean to confuse anyone, the system I use automatically puts
on a caption and I forgot....... So, sue me.

Thanks for the list of bookstores, it's more than I had expected. I assure you

I will visit every one of these places.


>who is this Alsos person?

me, who else?

Thanks again, Elliot
Alfred
Al...@aol.com


Ken McDougall

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May 9, 1994, 10:46:36 AM5/9/94
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In article <2psime$r...@cmcl2.NYU.EDU>, esn...@ACFcluster.NYU.EDU (Elliot Nesterman) writes:
|>
|> [SNIP] _All_ Scots belong to a clan, by definition. [SNIP]

Surely this is rather like saying "all Canadians belong to a Native
American tribe". Only Scots associated with surnames from the
Highlands & Islands have this clan connection, as only those parts
of Scotland were under the clan system when surnames came around.
Many well known Scottish names are those of Lowland families, not
Highland clans.

Ken.

Elliot Nesterman

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May 9, 1994, 11:33:02 AM5/9/94
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In article <1994May9.1...@acri.fr>, mcdo...@acri.fr (Ken McDougall) writes:
>Surely this is rather like saying "all Canadians belong to a Native
>American tribe". Only Scots associated with surnames from the
>Highlands & Islands have this clan connection, as only those parts
>of Scotland were under the clan system when surnames came around.
>Many well known Scottish names are those of Lowland families, not
>Highland clans.
>Ken.
There are many immigrant clans; one need mention only the Barclay's, Grant's
and Hay's, all Norman nobility who came North. However, and here I quote Sir
Thomas Innes of Learney,"A clan is a social group consisting of an aggregate of
distinct erected families actually descended, or accepting themselves as
descendants of a common ancestor, and which group has been received by the
Sovereign through his supreme Officer of Honour, the Lord Lyon, as an
honourable community whereof all the members, on establishing right to, or
receiving fresh grants of, personal hereditary nobility, will be awarded arms
as determinate or indeterminate cadets, both as may be, of the chief family of
the clan." (Tartans of the Clans and Families of Scotland,(Ediburgh,1938) p.25.
The operative phrase here, as I see it, is "which group has been received by
the Sovereign..." thus there can well be Clans recognized as such by the Lord
Lyon which are not of Highland origin. Granted these will be of no great
antiquity, but like the kilt and the pipes the Clan system is a Highland
tradition which has made its way into the Lowlands.

Leslie Schweitzer

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May 5, 1994, 12:20:00 AM5/5/94
to
Oh, yeah, the sword is also inverted/point to base. The mundane heralds
might also call it "reversed." In mundane blazon "reversed " is used for
"the opposite of the usual position." In the S.C.A. "reversed" means
"turned to sinister", which is of course not detectable on a sword, which is
symmetrical around its vertical axis...

Z

Leslie Schweitzer

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May 5, 1994, 12:19:00 AM5/5/94
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The blazon you gave would more standardly in the S.C.A. (and probably
mundanely as well) be "Azure, a saltire vert, overall (or debruised by) a
sword inverted gules." (Is it broken, too?)

Are you sure you are using the right colors? As it is the field is blue,
the saltire is vert, and the sword is gules, which has bad contrast. The
S.C.A. would accept it if the field were metal (argent/white or Or/yellow)
-- stylistically, that is. I'm not sure how the Lyon court views things,
but since the sword lies mostly on the field rather than on the saltire, it
should probably contrast well with the field.

Then again, the English College just passed something with proper swords on
Or, so I'm not sure exactly how they're looking at contrast nowadays. But
the English College is emphatically not Lord Lyon's...

If you post the right colors I can look to see if it's totally obviously
something that is likely to conflict in the Lyon Ordinary but for *gosh*
sake don't take my word for it, that's what Carrick P. gets paid for.

(First woman in a Great Britain College of Arms, she is, and good luck and
health to her!)

Zenobia Naphtali/Leslie Schweitzer
de veritate non disputandum

blac...@delphi.com

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May 22, 1994, 12:01:01 AM5/22/94
to
this is my first time through here, please bear with me. how can one be sure
that ones is "definately" associated with a clan? ie. from the Highlands?

thanks :)
Teri McCulloch Flinder

Carolyn Barkley

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May 22, 1994, 11:22:43 AM5/22/94
to
Definite proof involves documented lineal or collateral
descent. Source documents, hours of work, lots of
correspondence, and the good excuse to go to Scotland.
Let me know specific clan/family name interest and I'll try
to refer you to a specific genealogist for the US society of
that name.

Carolyn L Barkley
Central Library 4100 Va Beach Blvd, Va Beach, VA 23452
clba...@leo.vsla.edu

blac...@delphi.com

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May 22, 1994, 7:21:52 PM5/22/94
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Ms. Barkley,
Thank you for responding. to the best of my knowledge, my clan affiliation
is Donald of Sleat.

Thank you again,

Teri McCulloch Flinder

gor...@chmeds.ac.nz

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May 23, 1994, 8:39:17 PM5/23/94
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Clan organisation was not, before 1745, as strictly delineated as many
genealogists seem to think! Clan membership was associated with descent, but
also especially for non-cheif(tan) related families, with geography: if you
lived in Farquharson lands, you were associated with that clan. Always
remember too that the highlands were a rural society. During the resurgence of
the highland culture from about 1812, lots of rules were "discovered",
principally because there was little of the oral tradition still left (see my
previous polemics :-)

For "definate" proof: an ancestor not far off the main patrilineal line
who acted or said that he OR SHE was a member of a clan OR a family name which
has been recognised by the clan as a sept OR a bunch of ancestors living in
clan lands.

This is only sligtly off topic :-). I'm happy to talk further by private
email.

Cheers
Gordon (a definate Farquharson!)
--
Gordon Findlay, Computer Scientist, Christchurch School of Medicine
Nuclear-free New Zealand !SYSTEM-F-SYSERR: System
Email: Gor...@CHMEDS.AC.NZ !error. Hit any user to
Paper: PO Box 4345, Christchurch, NEW ZEALAND !continue.
Voice: +64-3-364 0540 !

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