I wonder if you could help me, | \ O / |
I am designing a coat of arms | \ Azu | re / |
for myself which reads as such: | \ ___|___ / |
|\ \ |G| / /|
Azure, a saltire vert, | \ \ |U| / / |
Emblazoned with a sword palewise | A\ \|L|/ /A |
broken (erased) Gules. | z \ ||| / z |
| u > Vert < u |
I believe this is the \ r / \ r /
correct form. But to be sure, \e/ ||| \e/
Here is a picture...... \ /| |\ /
\ / |E| \ /
I want three things with this, \ / |S| \ /
1. Accuracy \Azu| |re /
2. Simplicity \ | /
3. Authenticity \ _ _ /
Also where can I go to get these checked out? I plan to register these
arms with the Lord Lyon and I don't want to have to spend multiple thousands of
pounds on them, just to have them thrown back at me on a techniqality!
> I wonder if you could help me, I am designing a coat of arms for myself
> which reads as such:
> Azure, a saltire vert, Emblazoned with a sword palewise broken
> (erased) Gules.
> I want three things with this,
> 1. Accuracy
> 2. Simplicity
> 3. Authenticity
Authenticity in what sense?
Your design places color on color; in modern English armory, that is
considered a violation of the rule of tinctures. I do not know if the Lyon
office requires adherence to that rule, but I expect that they do.
You can find an explanation of the rule of tinctures in any introductory
heraldry text. I recommend A. C. Fox-Davies "Aq Complete Guide to Heraldry."
Josh Mittleman (mit...@watson.ibm.com)
J2-C28 T.J. Watson Research Center, PO Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY 10598
Joshua Brandon Holden Brown Math Department bra...@math.brown.edu
"It's never too late to have a happy childhood!" ---Cutter John
Oh, where to begin. Color on color has already been mentioned.
As Horner is an English name I assume that you have Scots ancestors hiding in
the line of your mother or some grandmother or other, else the Lyon Court will
not entertain your plea. Once you have shown Scots ancestry the arms you can
petition for will need to be related to either your most recent armigerous
ancestor's or those of your clan chief. _All_ Scots belong to a clan, by
definition. If you can show a Scots ancestor, but cannot show any definite
genealogical relationship to an armiger, you can recieve arms of a stranger in
blood. These will not be a difference of clan arms, but rather a composition
which is related in design. As well, though I'm not absolutely certain, I
believe what is done is that the Lord Lyon authorises a posthumous, retroactive
grant of arms to your ancestor, which then enables you to inherit them.
So, what's your clan? Lacking that, what is the name of your most recent
Scots forebear? Sorry, in real armory you cannot just make them up, I'm afraid.
Elliot Nesterman ESN4616@NYUACF
Institute of Fine Arts esn...@acfcluster.nyu.edu
New York University standard disclaimers apply
***baccalaureus humilis solum sed melior me facere experior***
Can anyone recommend a bookstore in New York City that sells books on
Heraldry. I've had the toughest time finding a bookstore that has anything
on Heraldry in stock. In one place, the clerk didn't even know what it was.
"Hera.....what?" , " check the history section"
Thanks for your help
> Can anyone recommend a bookstore in New York City that sells books on
The Strand Bookstore always has a few books in stock in their heraldry
section, which is in the back on the right as you enter. There used to be
a place called Sky Books somewhere in mid-town which was a military
bookstore, that carried a range of heraldic texts. I don't know if they
are still in business. And the Metropolitan Museum of Art bookstore (and
the store in their branch at the Cloisters) usually has a couple heraldry
texts as well.
Argent, a saltire vert,
emblazed a sword palewise
broken FRACTED gules.
"Fracted" *means* broken; I'm still not sure what you are trying to show
Also, an "emblazon" (I assume emblazed is a typo for emblazoned) is a
heraldic drawing. I think what you mean is "Argent, a saltire vert,
overall a sword palewise fracted gules." Overall indicates that it is
partly on the field and also partly on the saltire.
Pastoureau claims that only in Castille and the kingdom of Grenada does
the frequency of violations rise above 2%. But there are a number of
well-known violations; Woodward cites 26 on p.752 of his Treatise.
> Regarding the prohibition of metal on metal, or color on color: an
> exception is made for the Pope...
An exception is made by whom?
The importance of the rules of tinctures is grossly overstated by
English-language heraldicists. Even in England, "violations" of the
so-called rule were not uncommon in medieval and Renaissance heraldry. In
other countries, they were common and in some cases predominant.
In French, they are called "armes a enquerre", because they were supposed
to prompt you to inquire about their origins.
Yes, the Jerusalem arms are the best-known violation, but there are others.
Woodward cites examples from Germany mostly, but also France, Spain, Italy,
French heraldry uses the term "cousu" (literally, sown) to get around the
problem (or signal that this is no mistake). For example, Sandberg
(Netherlands) as blazoned in Rietstap is:
d'argent au chevron cousu d'or accompagne de trois trefles de sinople
(Argent, a chevron or between three trefoils vert).
The use of the word "cousu" is common for chiefs: e.g. the arms of Paris,
which have a chief of France "cousu" onto a field of gules.
I wonder when the Jerusalem arms that we know were first adopted (since the
kingdom predates heraldry).
> Francois Velde
PMJI, but wasn´t the arms of the king of Jerusalem also an exception? I don´t
know the English term, but in German those arms are called "Raetselwappen" or
"Puzzle-arms", because they often had a special reason to violate the rules of
> This post is confusing to me Josh, is this Alsos person you? If not, who
> is this Alsos person?
Hi, Elliot (sorry Josh)
I didn't mean to confuse anyone, the system I use automatically puts
on a caption and I forgot....... So, sue me.
Thanks for the list of bookstores, it's more than I had expected. I assure you
I will visit every one of these places.
>who is this Alsos person?
me, who else?
Thanks again, Elliot
Surely this is rather like saying "all Canadians belong to a Native
American tribe". Only Scots associated with surnames from the
Highlands & Islands have this clan connection, as only those parts
of Scotland were under the clan system when surnames came around.
Many well known Scottish names are those of Lowland families, not
Are you sure you are using the right colors? As it is the field is blue,
the saltire is vert, and the sword is gules, which has bad contrast. The
S.C.A. would accept it if the field were metal (argent/white or Or/yellow)
-- stylistically, that is. I'm not sure how the Lyon court views things,
but since the sword lies mostly on the field rather than on the saltire, it
should probably contrast well with the field.
Then again, the English College just passed something with proper swords on
Or, so I'm not sure exactly how they're looking at contrast nowadays. But
the English College is emphatically not Lord Lyon's...
If you post the right colors I can look to see if it's totally obviously
something that is likely to conflict in the Lyon Ordinary but for *gosh*
sake don't take my word for it, that's what Carrick P. gets paid for.
(First woman in a Great Britain College of Arms, she is, and good luck and
health to her!)
Zenobia Naphtali/Leslie Schweitzer
de veritate non disputandum
Carolyn L Barkley
Central Library 4100 Va Beach Blvd, Va Beach, VA 23452
Clan organisation was not, before 1745, as strictly delineated as many
genealogists seem to think! Clan membership was associated with descent, but
also especially for non-cheif(tan) related families, with geography: if you
lived in Farquharson lands, you were associated with that clan. Always
remember too that the highlands were a rural society. During the resurgence of
the highland culture from about 1812, lots of rules were "discovered",
principally because there was little of the oral tradition still left (see my
previous polemics :-)
For "definate" proof: an ancestor not far off the main patrilineal line
who acted or said that he OR SHE was a member of a clan OR a family name which
has been recognised by the clan as a sept OR a bunch of ancestors living in
This is only sligtly off topic :-). I'm happy to talk further by private
Gordon (a definate Farquharson!)
Gordon Findlay, Computer Scientist, Christchurch School of Medicine
Nuclear-free New Zealand !SYSTEM-F-SYSERR: System
Email: Gor...@CHMEDS.AC.NZ !error. Hit any user to
Paper: PO Box 4345, Christchurch, NEW ZEALAND !continue.
Voice: +64-3-364 0540 !