Laird of Glencoe

[Eleanor Murray]

Does anyone know anything about someone called Gòndec MacGòndec, who
apparently became the "feudal lord of Glencoe" in 2011, and seems to
think the MacGòndecs are a Sept of the MacDonald's of Glencoe. He
appears in a list of Scottish feudal lordships created in Scotland
before 1707, which states that the lordship of Glencoe was created in
1350.

This is the only information I can find about the MacGòndec clan and
their Association, which is "a not-for-profit organization started in
2011 to promote and to share the pride and kinship of the MacGòndec
Sept of the MacDonald's of Glencoe. Membership is open to anyone who
is interested in Clan MacGòndec or the MacDonald of Glencoe name. The
association regularly attends Scottish Highland Games and Festivals
throughout the world."

According to the Lord Lyon's office, they do not hold a comprehensive
record of feudal lordships but can confirm that no-one has recorded
Arms where they claimed to be the holder of the lordship of Glencoe,
and they can find no mention of Glencoe listed in the Inquisit
Retornat Abreviatio or in the Great Seal Register. Of course, this
does not mean that there isn't a lordship of that name but merely that
it has not been traced by them. They have no knowledge of Clan
MacGondec and the Lord Lyon, an expert in West Highland surnames, does
not think that it is a Gaelic name.

Does anyone here know where the MacGòndecs might come from? Or if
there still is, or ever was, a feudal barony or earldom of Glencoe? It
does seem rather intriguing.

Yours aye,
Eleanor

[Derek Howard]

I think you are referring to the entry for Gòndec MacGòndec in a rather dubious Wiki article on “Scottish feudal lordship” at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_feudal_lordship

Another Wiki article about MacDonald of Glencoe, at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacDonald_of_Glencoe, includes the name in the form of Gondek as a sept of the clan(!). I have not checked who inserted this.

The name is not Gaelic, indeed it is not found in Scotland’s People at all in the form Gòndec or MacGòndec and there are apparently only three entries in each of the statutory registers of births, marriages and deaths for the name as Gondek.

It appears the surname is Polish. A coat of arms for the name is found at
http://www.gondek.net/gondek.htm and a brief attempt at outlining the origin of the name is at
http://www.gondek.net/gondekname.htm

Now, there is nothing wrong with a hypothetical Gondek, say, marrying a MacDonald and claiming an allegiance to the clan, nor to the offspring of such having an inheritance of a patch of land or cottage in the Glencoe area, but claiming to be a sept with so few or claiming to hold a non-existent lordship is something else.

I feel that we should not give much credence to fantasy. It is unfortunate that those who like to play those games seek to amend the recording of real history.

The more interesting aspect historically is was Glencoe ever a separate lordship or barony? The answer is no.

The history of Glencoe is also covered in in R C Paterson: "The Lords of the Isles", 2008; and John Prebble: "Glencoe", pp 23 et seq., describes the ownership, formerly a part of the lordship of Lorn (or Lorne) under the MacDougalls it passed to Angus Og of Isley and the MacDonalds starting with his son Ian Og nan Fraoch. The MacIains held the land of the Lords of the Isles to 1493. The king then distributed the MacDonald lands with the MacIains holding of the Stewarts of Appin who had the life-rent of Glencoe. During the minority of Mary Queen of Scots the earl of Argyll became feudal superior of Appin and thus gain control of Glencoe. The MacIain MacDonalds (Clan Iain Abrach), though local lairds, never held any lordship or barony in Glencoe, only the chieftainship of their family and a house at Carnoch.

You mention the lack of references in the Register of the Great Seal (RMS). Glencoe was been granted to Angus Og by Robert I (see "Acts of the Lords of the Isles 1336-1493", ed. Munroe and Munroe , pub. Scottish History Society, 1986, p 5-8, citing RMS, i, app. 2, 57)

Glencoe was included in the lands granted to John de Yle 12 June 1343 (See "Acts …", p 208, no A2, citing RRS, vi, 113; APS, xii, Supp. no 9).
All his lands were confirmed 4 July 1363 (see "Acts …", p 208, no A5, citing RMS, i, 156).

No lordship or barony is shown covering Glencoe other than the Lordship of the Isles in A Grant: "Baronies, lordships and earldoms in the early 15th century", in “Atlas of Scottish History to 1707”, ed. McNeill and MacQueen, 1996, pp 201-207.

The land is included in the re-grant of land including Glencoe to John, once Earl of Ross and Lord of the Isles, when reinstated as a lord of Parliament with the new title of Lord of the Isles following his surrender of the Lordship and the Earldom of Ross.

See "Acts of the Lords of the Isles 1336-1493", ed. Munroe and Munroe , pub. Scottish History Society, 1986, lxxi; p 214, no A24 (RMS ii 1246). This is dated 15 Jul 1476, and the text can be found at p 253:
http://archive.org/stream/registrummagnisi02scot#page/252/

A full Latin text and translation are also available in "The Records of the Parliaments of Scotland to 1707", K.M. Brown et al eds (St Andrews, 2007-2012), A1476/7/1. [RPS, A1476/7/1]
http://www.rps.ac.uk/mss/A1476/7/1

A charter later followed the forfeiture of the Lordship of the Isles in 1493 and is to John MacLean of Lochbuie of various lands including the 53 merkland of Durror and Glencoe in the sheriffdom of Perth which were held by John from John once Lord of the Isels and now in the king’s hands by reason of forfeiture 22 March 1493/4. See "Acts of the Lords of the Isles 1336-1493", p 224, no A43, citing RMS, ii, 2201, which is at p 465:
http://archive.org/stream/registrummagnisi02scot#page/464/

I have not dug out all the references and links to later property transfers.

Much detail of the tenurial history of Glencoe is to be found in the chapter on Elanmunde (the name of the surrounding parish) in “Origines Parochiales Scotiae: vol. 2, pt. 1, Diocese of Argyle. Diocese of the Isles”, 1854, pp 170-175:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=GaE_AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA170

Incidentally, for over a decade in my youth I used to regularly visit Glencoe mountaineering and have probably first footed in the majority of the then houses in Glencoe and South Ballachulish.

Derek Howard

[StephenP]

On Friday, October 26, 2012 2:55:42 PM UTC+1, Derek Howard wrote:

snip

>
> Another Wiki article about MacDonald of Glencoe, at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacDonald_of_Glencoe, includes the name in the form of Gondek as a sept of the clan(!). I have not checked who inserted this.
>

snip
>
> Derek Howard

The edit appears to have been done by User 99.245.242.223 in May 2011. A Canadian IP address I think.

Yours aye

Stephen

[Eleanor Murray]

On Oct 26, 5:54 pm, StephenP <plow...@uk2.net> wrote:
> On Friday, October 26, 2012 2:55:42 PM UTC+1, Derek Howard wrote:
>
> snip
>
>
>

> > Another Wiki article about MacDonald of Glencoe, athttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacDonald_of_Glencoe, includes the name in the form of Gondek as a sept of the clan(!). I have not checked who inserted this.

>
> snip
>
> > Derek Howard
>
> The edit appears to have been done by User 99.245.242.223 in May 2011.  A Canadian IP address I think.
>
> Yours aye
>
> Stephen

Many thanks to you both. It does seem that someone is playing a rather
complicated game to amend history. Whoever it is has put several
videos up on Youtube, including this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lkiUVA3KCs

Yours aye,

Eleanor

[bghro...@btinternet.com]

The latest Crown Charter relative to Glencoan (as it was known then)was signeted in 1814; there is no mention of a Barony of Glencoan in that charter. Sometime later the lands of Glencoe and others came into the possession of the Lords Strathcona who, in 1935, conveyed them to property dealers. Most of the Estate was then sold off by auction in 1936 and the remainder, along with the "heritable office of Baron Bailliary of the said lands of Glencan ..."were conveyed to me in 1992.

BGH

[bghro...@btinternet.com]

Should anyone wish to be the next Baron Baillie of Glencoe they should contact me at www.baronytitles.com

BGH

[eajm...@gmail.com]

>Should anyone wish to be the next Baron Baillie of Glencoe they should contact me at www.baronytitles.com

BGH<

Given the recent relevations about the soi-disant "laird of Glencoe", as Jimmy Savile was known in some circles (and as he was he referred to as well by some people who should have known better), any title associated with Glencoe will, sadly, probably be tainted for some time to come, even without the mysterious Gondec MacGondec pretending to be the feudal lord of the Gondec sept of MacDonald. Bit of a social minefield, if you ask me. Couldn't you give it to whoever owns most of the land these days or even His Nibs (as Savile called Prince Charles) or something?

Yours aye,

Eleanor

[Turenne]

Who owns Glencoe House these days? Isn't he the laird?

RL

[eajm...@gmail.com]

> Who owns Glencoe House these days? Isn't he the laird?

> RL

Looks like there are loads of "lairds" and "ladies" of Glencoe:

BECOME A LAIRD OF GLENCOE http://www.highlandtitles.com/

"Highland Titles offers a unique opportunity for you to buy a plot of land on our estate in the Highlands of Scotland. We sell plots ranging in size from 1 square foot to 1000 square foot, and by Scottish tradition, ownership of land allows you, or someone you love, to use the courtesy title of Laird, Lord or Lady."

Scroll down page to see a video of two of them being presented with their new titles by Princess Diana's ex-butler and "rock", Paul Burrell, on ITV's This Morning show.

[bghro...@btinternet.com]

This is a complete scam; owning a square foot of land in Scotland has never legally, or by tradition, entitled someone to adopt the title of Laird or anything else. Furthermore, by Section 4 (2)(b)and (c) of the Land Register (Scotland) Act 1979 you cannot even register the piece of land in the Land Register.

[bghro...@btinternet.com]

> This is a complete scam; owning a square foot of land in Scotland has never legally, or by tradition, entitled someone to adopt the title of Laird or anything else. Furthermore, by Section 4 (2)(b) and (c) of the Land Registration (Scotland) Act 1979 you cannot even register the piece of land in the Land Register.

Also see what the Lord Lyon has to say on the subject.
http://www.lyon-court.com/lordlyon/776.html

[Turenne]

Yes; we know it's a scam, but since there used to be a laird, there probably is one now. A lairdship is an a corporeal hereditament, so the 'title' resides with an estate, in this case 'Glencoe'. What I'm asking is: "who owns Glencoe House", because, whoever he is; he is probably the 'Laird of Glencoe'.

Please, please; let's not have a discussion on corporeal hereditaments. I don't think I can take it...!

RL

[eajm...@gmail.com]

> Yes; we know it's a scam, but since there used to be a laird, there probably is one now. A lairdship is an a corporeal hereditament, so the 'title' resides with an estate, in this case 'Glencoe'. What I'm asking is: "who owns Glencoe House", because, whoever he is; he is probably the 'Laird of Glencoe'.

> Please, please; let's not have a discussion on corporeal hereditaments. I don't think I can take it...!

> RL

Of course, we all know it's a scam. Please don't insult our intelligence.

Glencoe House is a hotel, owned and operated by Alliance Hotels Consultants Ltd.

A lot of the land is now owned by the Glencoe Heritage Trust
http://www.glencoe-heritage-trust.com/
I am sure they would be delighted to accept a piece of paper which gives the owner the title of heritable baron bailie of Glencoe, even though, as Derek Howard points out above, there never was a feudal baron Glencoe.

Yours aye,

Eleanor

[bghro...@btinternet.com]

Clearly you have not had time to visit the Lord Lyon's page I referred you to.

The pre-fix 'Laird' is informal and has no legal standing in Scotland; your comments about lairdships being incorporeal hereitaments are not applicable to Scottish law.

While the 48,357 acres that made up the Glencoe Estate prior to the auction 31st July 1935 was in single ownership the local residents might have called Lord Strathcona their 'Laird' it does not necessarrily follow that the new owner of Glencoe House with it's 954 acres would be accorded the same respect.

As a side issue there were six other single properties, part of the Glencoe Estate, sold at the auction with a greater land area including one that had 18,000 acres and another with nearly 16,000 acres.

BGH

[eajm...@gmail.com]

> As a side issue there were six other single properties, part of the Glencoe Estate, sold at the auction with a greater land area including one that had 18,000 acres and another with nearly 16,000 acres.

> BGH

Most of the Glen is now owned by the National Trust for Scotland whose visitor centre has displays about both the natural and historical significance of the glen. The land was purchased by mountaineer and philanthropist Percy Unna, who then gave it to the trust on condition that it maintained the wild nature of the land. The building of a visitor centre caused some controversy, as some felt this to be a contravention of Unna's "rules". The original centre was later closed, and a new one built further down the glen.

I'm sure they would be happy to accept your old deed too, Mr Hamilton. They might even have it framed and display it as a minor historical curio in their visitor centre.

Or maybe I'll buy it and give it to them or the Glencoe Heritage Trust http://glencoe-heritage-trust.com/index.html
if you want to get rid of it quickly.

How much is an old deed like that worth these days, with no land attached? It can't be much more than the paper it's written on.

Yours aye,

Eleanor

[gregs talkin]

On Nov 1, 4:15 pm, bghrockh...@btinternet.com wrote:
> On Thursday, November 1, 2012 10:34:43 PM UTC, Turenne wrote:
> > On Thursday, November 1, 2012 8:23:34 PM UTC, bghro...@btinternet.com wrote:
>
> > > On Thursday, November 1, 2012 6:27:10 PM UTC, bghro...@btinternet.com wrote:
>
> > > > On Thursday, November 1, 2012 6:16:30 PM UTC, eajm...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > > > Who owns Glencoe House these days? Isn't he the laird?
>
> > > > > > RL
>
> > > > > Looks like there are loads of "lairds" and "ladies" of Glencoe:
>

> > > > > BECOME A LAIRD OF GLENCOEhttp://www.highlandtitles.com/

>
> > > > > "Highland Titles offers a unique opportunity for you to buy a plot of land on our estate in the Highlands of Scotland. We sell plots ranging in size from 1 square foot to 1000 square foot, and by Scottish tradition, ownership of land allows you, or someone you love, to use the courtesy title of Laird, Lord or Lady."
>
> > > > > Scroll down page to see a video of two of them being presented with their new titles by Princess Diana's ex-butler and "rock", Paul Burrell, on ITV's This Morning show.
>
> > > > This is a complete scam; owning a square foot of land in Scotland has never legally, or by tradition, entitled someone to adopt the title of Laird or anything else.  Furthermore, by Section 4 (2)(b) and (c) of the Land Registration (Scotland) Act 1979 you cannot even register the piece of land in the Land Register.
>
> > > Also see what the Lord Lyon has to say on the subject.
>
> > >http://www.lyon-court.com/lordlyon/776.html
>
> > Yes; we know it's a scam, but since there used to be a laird, there probably is one now. A lairdship is an a corporeal hereditament, so the 'title' resides with an estate, in this case 'Glencoe'. What I'm asking is: "who owns Glencoe House", because, whoever he is; he is probably the 'Laird of Glencoe'.
>
> > Please, please; let's not have a discussion on corporeal hereditaments. I don't think I can take it...!
>
> > RL
>
> Clearly you have not had time to visit the Lord Lyon's page I referred you to.
>
> The pre-fix 'Laird' is informal and has no legal standing in Scotland;  your comments about lairdships being incorporeal hereitaments are not applicable to Scottish law.
>
> While the 48,357 acres that made up the Glencoe Estate prior to the auction 31st July 1935 was in single ownership the local residents might have called Lord Strathcona their 'Laird' it does not necessarrily follow that the new owner of Glencoe House with it's 954 acres would be accorded the same respect.
>
> As a side issue there were six other single properties, part of the Glencoe Estate, sold at the auction with a greater land area including one that had 18,000 acres  and another with nearly 16,000 acres.
>

> BGH- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

1935 auction? That's very interesint Brian. Can you tell us a bit
about the history of the auction? What exaclty was Lord Strathcona's
title? Had to be something?

Thanks

[eajm...@gmail.com]

> 1935 auction? That's very interesint Brian. Can you tell us a bit
>
> about the history of the auction? What exaclty was Lord Strathcona's
>
> title? Had to be something?

> Thanks

Hi Greg,

The environmentalist and philanthropist Percy Unna was President of the Scottish Mountaineering Club in the mid-1930s. This led to his enthusiasm to protect the natural landscapes of Scotland and he set about raising funds to purchase much the Glen Coe Estate of Lord Strathcona in 1935, followed by the Dalness Forest - including the mountains of Buachaille Etive Mor and Buachaille Etive Beag - two years later. He contributed generously to the purchases from his own funds and presented the properties to the National Trust for Scotland (NTS), which was founded in 1935.

Donald Alexander Smith, 1st Baron Strathcona and Mount Royal, GCMG, GCVO, PC, DL (6 August 1820 – 21 January 1914) was a Scottish-born Canadian fur trader, financier, railroad baron and politician. He was created Baron Strathcona and Mount Royal, of Glencoe in the County of Argyll and of Mount Royal in the Province of Quebec and Dominion of Canada, in the Peerage of the United Kingdom, on 23 August 1897. (Strathcona is also in Canada)

In 1894, before he became a peer, Donald was involved in a land auction in Edinburgh and was successful in his purchase of a considerable amount of land in Glencoe; one of Scotland's most famous glens.

As a peer of the realm, not a feudal baron, his territorial designations of Glencoe and of Mount Royal were a very different kettle of fish to those of your average Scottish baron who is not a member of the House of Lords.

More info about his extraordinary life can be found here:
http://www.electricscotland.com/history/canada/lord_strathcona.htm

Yours aye,

Eleanor

[Derek Howard]

To link this discussion to matters heraldic there is a nice photo of one gable of Glencoe House bearing Strathcona's crest, of On a mount vert a beaver eating into a maple tree Proper, at:
http://www.glencoe-house.com/img/ston_6.jpg

Derek Howard

[Emungo]

The current Private Eye (no 1328, p 31) has an amusing article on this outfit, pointing out that anyone acquiring one of the tiny parcels of land that Highland Titles purports to sell in order to justify the use of the designation ‘laird’ risks expensive fines if they fail to deal with diseased ash trees on their land. Fortunately for the purchasers, it seems Highland Titles are not actually conveying ownership in the ‘souvenir plots’ any more than a real title. Ownership is actually transferred to a trust set up by the company itself. “But then, what could they claim to be selling?” the article concludes. (A view of the website suggests it’s a fancy bit of paper and a licence to access the whole estate – though maybe the latter is of no value in Scotland where there would be presumed access anyway, wouldn’t there?)
The piece also mentions the grim coat of arms that the website states all lairds have the right to use. Unfortunately the company is in Alderney and therefore beyond the jurisdiction of Lyon (about whom the website has a beautifully dismissive FAQ).

[eajm...@hotmail.com]

On Saturday, December 8, 2012 6:13:59 PM UTC, Emungo wrote:

> The current Private Eye (no 1328, p 31) has an amusing article on this outfit, pointing out that anyone acquiring one of the tiny parcels of land that Highland Titles purports to sell in order to justify the use of the designation ‘laird’ risks expensive fines if they fail to deal with diseased ash trees on their land. Fortunately for the purchasers, it seems Highland Titles are not actually conveying ownership in the ‘souvenir plots’ any more than a real title. Ownership is actually transferred to a trust set up by the company itself. “But then, what could they claim to be selling?” the article concludes. (A view of the website suggests it’s a fancy bit of paper and a licence to access the whole estate – though maybe the latter is of no value in Scotland where there would be presumed access anyway, wouldn’t there?)
>
> The piece also mentions the grim coat of arms that the website states all lairds have the right to use. Unfortunately the company is in Alderney and therefore beyond the jurisdiction of Lyon (about whom the website has a beautifully dismissive FAQ).

Good for Private Eye! As for the registered trademark masquerading as a coat of arms, it is indeed grim. In fact it's absolutely hideous. Judging by their Facebook page, though, they still seem to have plenty of punters, who are all invited to an AGM at Glencoe House in May 2013.

The mind boggles.

Youra aye, Eleanor

[eajm...@hotmail.com]

Oh dear, just spotted a typo...

Of cours I meant Yours aye,

Eleanor

[Turenne]

On Saturday, December 8, 2012 10:21:43 PM UTC, eajm...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Oh dear, just spotted a typo...
>

>
> Of cours I meant Yours aye,

....and of course, you meant 'course'....

RL

[eajm...@hotmail.com]

Absolutely!

[ianan...@gmail.com]

I see the scammers at Highland Titles just got pulled up by the advertising standards authority for claiming that punters get a title by owning a plot of land in Scotland ..... GOOD!

http://lochaberhighlandestate.blogspot.ro/2014/03/asa-rules-highland-titles-misleading.html