Heraldic Colors in the Infantry
for Nicolai
this late in time!
Wouldn't one carry the colors of the king or emperor?
http://www.cmhg.gc.ca/cmh/en/image_261.asp?page_id=310
http://www.heraldik.se/heraldica/user_files/Awdaniec/2007829101842_Specht.jpg
Greg
A very interesting way of distinguishing regiments. Was Germany the
only country to use this uniform color style?
The Chief
Musicians wore uniforms with the regimental uniform colours reversed.
By this I mean that the facing colour for the soldiers of the regiment
became the primary colour of the musician's uniform jacket, while the
soldier's primary uniform colour, which for British infantry of the
line was of course red, became the facing colour. So, this
illustration of the clothing for a drummer shows that this regiment
wore standard British red with yellow facings. What's the problem?
Regards,
The Chief
for Nicolai
this link is from the Canadian Military/Government!
Government of Canada
Government du Canada
The Chief
Please read my post.
Regards
for Nicolai
Canada>>
This drummer wears the yellow and red livery of the von Specht family!
versus
The Chief>>
So, this illustration of the clothing for a drummer shows that this
regiment
wore standard British red with yellow facings.
???
Peter Constantine
> A very interesting way of distinguishing regiments. Was Germany the
> only country to use this uniform color style?
Germany as such did not really exist at this time. Prussia was the major
'German' military power at this time and its infantry famously wore blue
coats.
x
Peter Constantine
> Please read the text below the picture,
> this link is from the Canadian Military/Government!
The picture shows a drummer of a regiment from the Duchy of
Brunswick-Lüneburg and therefore part of the British Army of George III
(as Elector of Hanover). These German regiments (often referred to as
Hessians) were not mercenaries in the modern sense of the word.
x
Andrew Chaplin
news:99630056-1c21-497c...@t12g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
Are you referring to the liveries in use on the uniform or to the flags borne
by the regiment in battle?
During the Seven Years' War and for some years after that, the colonel of a
regiment was still responsible for its complete administration, including
providing its uniforms. Hence, you have two regiments with colonels named
Howard that bore names from their facing colours: "The Buffs" and "The Green
Howards." Such details were the colonel's discretion, unless the regiment
became a royal regiment (then there would be some negotiation between the
Crown and the colonel).
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)
Andrew Chaplin
news:Ib-dnbtEu_dDO4jV...@giganews.com...
> "for Nicolai" <imagema...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:99630056-1c21-497c...@t12g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>> Sorry .......this was something new to me
>> this late in time!
>> Wouldn't one carry the colors of the king or emperor?
>>
>> http://www.cmhg.gc.ca/cmh/en/image_261.asp?page_id=310
>> http://www.heraldik.se/heraldica/user_files/Awdaniec/2007829101842_Specht.jpg
>
> Are you referring to the liveries in use on the uniform or to the flags
> borne by the regiment in battle?
Disregard the preceeding paragraph.
Greg
wrote:
Yes, I remember now, thanks. The Prussians wore them during the 7 yrs
war as well didn't they?
From the text ubder the picture:
"Infanterie-Regiment von Specht was one of the regiments of German
mercenaries hired from the duchy of Brunswick that arrived at Quebec
in 1777 ".
Hense I mentioned Germany... As I said, that is very interesting
uniform source. Were there any other regiments that reached their
color schemes this way? Seems like a great idea.
Don Aitken
Not so. All members of all ruling lines of the House of Welf were
"duke of Brunswick", and usually "duke of Luneburg" as well - this was
a dynastic title, not one which related to the rule of a particular
area. George III was one of several who bore those titles, but his
*ruling* title was Elector of Hanover. The actual duchy of Brunswick,
or, more correctly, Braunschweig-Wolfenbüttel was ruled by a fairly
distant cousin, at this time Karl I (1735-80), and it was from him
that these troops were hired. The Hessians, came, unsurprisingly, from
Hesse, which was ruled by another family entirely; there was a habit
in North America of referring to all German troops in British service
as "Hessians", whether they were or not. But neither the Hessians nor
the Brunswickers were George's subjects, and both of them fit any
definition of "mercenary" I know.
--
Don Aitken
Mail to the From: address is not read.
To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com"
Peter Constantine
> All members of all ruling lines of the House of Welf were
> "duke of Brunswick", and usually "duke of Luneburg" as well - this was
> a dynastic title, not one which related to the rule of a particular
> area. George III was one of several who bore those titles, but his
> *ruling* title was Elector of Hanover. The actual duchy of Brunswick,
> or, more correctly, Braunschweig-Wolfenbüttel was ruled by a fairly
> distant cousin, at this time Karl I (1735-80), and it was from him
> that these troops were hired.
Do you have a source that confirms that Regiment Specht was from
Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel rather than Brunswick-Lüneburg? AFAICT both
duchies were extant in 1777 with Karl I ruling the first and George III
ruling the latter.
> But neither the Hessians nor the Brunswickers were George's subjects, and
> both of them fit any definition of "mercenary" I know.
The troops in the German regiments of the British army were mostly
conscripts or the victims of impressment. This does not fit the modern
definition of mercenaries as 'professional soldiers who hire out their
own services for money'.
x
Peter Constantine
> Do you have a source that confirms that Regiment Specht was from
> Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel rather than Brunswick-Lüneburg?
To follow up my own post... a bit of facthunting reveals that Regiment
Specht was indeed from Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel. I suspect that at this
time any regiments originating from Brunswick-Lüneburg would have been
described as 'Hanoverian'?
x
Peter Constantine
> Musicians wore uniforms with the regimental uniform colours reversed.
> By this I mean that the facing colour for the soldiers of the regiment
> became the primary colour of the musician's uniform jacket, while the
> soldier's primary uniform colour, which for British infantry of the
> line was of course red, became the facing colour. So, this
> illustration of the clothing for a drummer shows that this regiment
> wore standard British red with yellow facings.
The coat in 'reversed' colours for musicians was common practice in many
armies of the 18th Century. Brunswick, however, was something of an
exception in that drummers wore yellow coats lined red (with different
facings and lace for each regiment) but the other ranks wore
Prussian-style dark blue coats.
x
Don Aitken
No doubt they would, because there was no such political entity as
"Brunswick-Luneburg". Before the creation of the Electorate George's
ancestors were "duke of Brunswick-Lüneburg in Hannover", and before
that "in Kalenberg". Other lines of the family were dukes "in Celle",
"in Dannenberg", and so on. Territories were frequently subdivided and
shuffled around between members of the family, but that stopped in
1692, because electorates could not legally be subdivided. The only
possessions of the House which were not part of the Electorate were
Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel and Brunswick-Bevern, which were united at some
time in the late 18th century, and thereafter usually referred to as
the Duchy of Brunswick (although, as I said, all members of the House
had the title "duke of Brunswick", both before and after this).
Turenne
>To follow up my own post... a bit of facthunting reveals that Regiment
>Specht was indeed from Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel. I suspect that at this
>time any regiments originating from Brunswick-Lüneburg would have been
>described as 'Hanoverian'?
The Specht journals are currently kept in Wolfenbuttel. The journals
do however make the observation that the regiment passed through
Luneburg
For what it's worth, here's a picture of a fifer from the Regiment
Specht.
Richard
The Chief
Perhaps, but this regiment was in British service. That being so, the
illustrated uniform of the musician is, on its own, as I have already
stated, consistent with standard British uniform having been worn. The
key point, the one that I have been getting at, is that this
illustration of a musician's uniform does not show anything unusual:
to **prove** that this mercenary regiment wore its Coronel's personal
livery as their uniform, what is required is an example of the uniform
of a regular soldier, not that of a musician.
Regards,
The Chief
Peter Constantine
> Perhaps, but this regiment was in British service. That being so, the
> illustrated uniform of the musician is, on its own, as I have already
> stated, consistent with standard British uniform having been worn. The
> key point, the one that I have been getting at, is that this
> illustration of a musician's uniform does not show anything unusual:
> to **prove** that this mercenary regiment wore its Coronel's personal
> livery as their uniform, what is required is an example of the uniform
> of a regular soldier, not that of a musician.
An illustration showing a private (grenadier) of Sprecht's regiment can
be seen here:
http://www.srcalifornia.com/uniforms/s4.htm
...this does not prove, however, that the drummers' uniform was based on
the colonel's personal livery as sources suggest that the drummers of
all Brunswick regiments wore yellow coats:
http://www.perry-miniatures.com/aw_art2.html
x
for Nicolai
Although the final judgment is still pending
this has been very interesting and educating .. at least for me!
With my best regards!!!
for Nicolai
I did try to contact the webmaster of the Canadian site
to possibly get a source,
but the address was outdated!