cant this
James Hyder
surname: Hyder (spelling variants include Heider, Haider, Heyder in German
speaking countries and Hider in English speaking countries).
In German, heid means or refers to "heathen", therefore several German arms for
Heiders have included a moor (or heathen). But this reference is obviously
lost in a cant for Hyder in the English language.
Any thoughts? The best I can come up with is a "hydra". But I do not much
care for that as a charge or a crest. (I could live with it as a badge,
perhaps.)
Thanks in advance.
James Hyder
Augusta, GA
USA
James D. Hyder, Jr., Esq.
www.lawyers.com/jhyder
Edwin King
>
> Any thoughts? The best I can come up with is a "hydra". But I do not much
> care for that as a charge or a crest. (I could live with it as a badge,
> perhaps.)
As far as crests or supporters go you could use almost anything that's
camoflagued (after all they're hiding). I've seen chameleons used.
Personally I like mythical beasties - are there any known for being
particularly shy?
A moor peeking through a bush could be used as a crest (and would be
quite Tudor), but in my mind would be stretching it too far...
Edwin
Will Linden
mount?
--
Will Linden wli...@panix.com
http://www.panix.com/~wlinden/
Magic Code: MAS/GD S++ W++ N+ PWM++ Ds/r+ A-> a++ C+ G- QO++ 666 Y
Derek Howard
>
> I thought some of you might be willing to try your hand at canting arms for my
> surname: Hyder (spelling variants include Heider, Haider, Heyder in German
> speaking countries and Hider in English speaking countries).
>
> In German, heid means or refers to "heathen", therefore several German arms for
> Heiders have included a moor (or heathen). But this reference is obviously
> lost in a cant for Hyder in the English language.
>
> care for that as a charge or a crest. (I could live with it as a badge,
> perhaps.)
>
>
> James Hyder
> Augusta, GA
> USA
> James D. Hyder, Jr., Esq.
> www.lawyers.com/jhyder
Well the big name in European politics at the moment is that of populist
Jörg Haider in Austria for whom I would suggest a right wing or should
it be sinister wing sable. I would not suggest emulation of anything
connected to him.
You mentioned German arms and I had a look in my copy of Neubecker's
"Grosses Wappen Bilder Lexikon" which is an ordinary of Siebmacher and
covering Germany, Austria and Switzerland. The references below are to
page number in the Lexikon, to Abteilung (part) and to Tafel (table) of
Burgerliche Siebmacher from which to obtain further details:
Heyder
449, 2, 45
A winged lion rampant
752, 9, 49
three vases
518, 9, 86
three leaves (heart shaped)
Heider
none
Hayder
261, 6, 87
horizontally or sable and vert a unicorn rampant
Haider
1049, 1, 66 and
1049, 8, 65
quarterly (1) and (4) a demi-man dressed and hatted gules holding in his
dexter hand a mace of office, (2) and (3) azure a mullet of six or in
chief partially surrounded by a moon argent in base.
864, 6, 74
per fess in chief sable a demi-unicorn salient or in base or on an
inverted pile sable a fleur-de-lys Or
So I am not too certain where you find these Moors. There are two German
meanings of the word Heide:
(1) heath, moor (as covered in heidekraut meaning heather)
(2) heathen, pagan (ie. coming from the heath or rough countryside and
applied to belief).
These lead me to think of a bunch of heather, a purpure field, a wild
man, a Thor's hammer.
The moor not being the same as the English "blackamoor" means that a
cant on a moor's head would not work German as well as being lost in
English as you point out.
Possibly a hide as in a stone shooting booth found on moors for shooting
grouse might work though it may just resemble a pile of stones it could
also be a wicker fence section.
A cow's hide may work - either as a skin laid out like a mat on the
shield or by having the shield a brown or dun colour all over (might
even be unique) or else Argent two sable flaunches - similar to Gateway
2000 Computer's style !
A hide was also a whip made from animal hide as well as the action of
using a whip or thrashing generally so a whip might be appropriate.
Possibly between the flaunches. The animal skin meaning is the only
English version coming from a teutonic root according to the OED so is
relevant.
Alternatively were you to use a Greek root it would imply something
watery.
Derek Howard
James Hyder
snip
>So I am not too certain where you find these Moors. There are two German
>meanings of the word Heide:
>(1) heath, moor (as covered in heidekraut meaning heather)
>(2) heathen, pagan (ie. coming from the heath or rough countryside and
>applied to belief).
>
In Reitstap there is a Heider shield of arms
which has as a charge a moor (wildman, heathen?) issuing out of a hill holding
in his upraised hands what I think is supposed to be heather. A cant on all
the German allusions from Heider, I guess.
There is also a web page from a fellow Heider somewhere in Germany with a
shield of arms containing a typical turban headed black moor and an essay (in
German) about the use of the moor in heraldry. But I can't find the URL right
now.
Thanks very much, by the way, for the interesting information. Most of the
English cants on Hyder are just too ugly for my tastes. A cow hide?! Ugh!
Maybe canting arms aren't for me.
Derek Howard
>
> In Reitstap there is a Heider shield of arms
> which has as a charge a moor (wildman, heathen?) issuing out of a hill holding
> in his upraised hands what I think is supposed to be heather. A cant on all
> the German allusions from Heider, I guess.
>
> There is also a web page from a fellow Heider somewhere in Germany with a
> shield of arms containing a typical turban headed black moor and an essay (in
> German) about the use of the moor in heraldry. But I can't find the URL right
> now.
>
> Thanks very much, by the way, for the interesting information. Most of the
> English cants on Hyder are just too ugly for my tastes. A cow hide?! Ugh!
>
> Maybe canting arms aren't for me.
>
> James Hyder
> Augusta, GA
> USA
There is an interesting column in the Brussels Bulletin this week with
reference to the Austrian Haider chap, written by someone with
connections in the Indian sub-continent, pointing out that the surname
also occurs commonly in the Punjab and speculates on the possibilities
of Asians emigrating a while back to Austria. Perhaps you should be
looking for some allusion rather, than cant, to Hyder Ali of Mysore or
the Nizams of Hyderabad. I have no idea what the meaning of Hyder/Haider
is in Punjabi, Urdu or Hindi. Maybe you should have a brahmin cow?
Derek Howard
Darren S. A. George
>Most of the
>English cants on Hyder are just too ugly for my tastes. A cow hide?!
Why not do something with sable and ermine? They're both the hides from
something.
The Mad Alchemist
http://members.xoom.com/madalch
James Hyder
>something.
>
There you go. Right in front of my nose all along. Still, not exactly
something that will immediately suggest a relationship to the name. Maybe the
"hydra" was not such a bad idea after all.
Anyone know of examples of a hydra in heraldry - especially if available on the
web?
James Hyder
>reference to the Austrian Haider chap, written by someone with
>connections in the Indian sub-continent, pointing out that the surname
>also occurs commonly in the Punjab and speculates on the possibilities
>of Asians emigrating a while back to Austria. Perhaps you should be
>looking for some allusion rather, than cant, to Hyder Ali of Mysore or
>the Nizams of Hyderabad. I have no idea what the meaning of Hyder/Haider
>is in Punjabi, Urdu or Hindi. Maybe you should have a brahmin cow?
>
>Derek Howard
>
>
>
Yes, I am aware of the Hyder name showing up in India. Several times persons
of Indian extraction have mentioned it to me. Apparently Hyder Ali was a
muslim King for whom Hyderabad was named (?). The notion that we are descended
from muslim Asian stock and not Teutonic stock would, I am afraid, come as
quite a shock to most of my cousins ;-) I rather suspect that the similarities
in the names relate to some linguistic coincidence.
Mr. Haider of Austria is getting a good deal of press even here in Augusta,
Georgia. Several folks have asked me about a connection. I point out that my
ancestors spelled it "Heider". It is nice to hear the name in the press,
though. It is not at all common here.
I wonder, is the Brussels Bulletin article you mentioned available on the web?
Thanks.
Darren S. A. George
>Mr. Haider of Austria is getting a good deal of press even here in >Augusta, Georgia. Several folks have asked me about a connection. I >point out that my ancestors spelled it "Heider". It is nice to hear the >name in the press, though. It is not at all common here.
Your immediate ancestors spelled it "Heider". That's not to say that
your great^3 grandfather spelled it that way, since people weren't
particularly concerned with spelling last century. Some of my ancestors
spelled their surnames "X".
I have not seen a hydra used in heraldry (Fox-Davies mentions them, but
does not show an illustration). I suspect seven heads may make the thing
difficult to draw clearly. I wonder if four or five heads would be
better (and still be considered a hydra).
James Hyder
>your great^3 grandfather spelled it that way, since people weren't
>particularly concerned with spelling last century. Some of my ancestors
>spelled their surnames "X".
>
>I have not seen a hydra used in heraldry (Fox-Davies mentions them, but
>does not show an illustration). I suspect seven heads may make the thing
>difficult to draw clearly. I wonder if four or five heads would be
>better (and still be considered a hydra).
Well, my great^6 grandfather spelled it that way in 1729. Then the English
clerks who couldn't be bothered spelled it Hider and Hyder. Finally, the
family settled on the Anglicized version.
Yes, a seven headed hydra would be a bit much, as I've always thought. It
could be a very dramatic supporter, though, eh? I'll have to wait for my grand
cross, I suppose ;-).
There is also a micro organism called a hydra, is there not? My wouldn't THAT
be nice! (ugh!)
Philip G. Bochanski
news:20000216144037...@ng-ca1.aol.com...
> I thought some of you might be willing to try your hand at canting arms
for my
> surname: Hyder (spelling variants include Heider, Haider, Heyder in
German
> speaking countries and Hider in English speaking countries).
How about a brown recluse spider, proper? Or for that matter, three of
them, 2 and 1. As its name implies this little creature likes to "hide"
under rocks and logs, but is quite venomous and dangerous when roused.
Plus, its a dramatic looking little critter. For a look check out
http://www.highway60.com/mark/images/recluse.gif
Regards,
(Rev) Philip Bochanski
www.geocities.com/Athens/Marble/9602 -- Latin Mottos and Epigrams
Philip G. Bochanski
www.geocities.com/Athens/Marble/9602/page4.html
pgb
Barry Gabriel
Philip G. Bochanski wrote:
> I've put up a rough draft of "Or, three Brown Recluse spiders proper" at
> www.geocities.com/Athens/Marble/9602/page4.html
As a bit of an arachnaphobe, it's a little too creepy for me.
BG
Michael F. McCartney
>>So, by the same procedure, what is the heraldic "proper" tincture for
>>a griffin? Whenever in real life you look in a direction where you
>>think a griffin actually exists, you see everything around it as if it
>>isn't there at all. Therefore, "a griffin proper" must be
>>transparent, or invisible.
Would this be blazoned "umbra griffonis"??
Or (or not Or) possibly a griffon, over all on a pale raguly three escallops?
(hiding behind a dead tree, & St James}
>Ah Hah! (as the dim bulb over his head begins to flicker on) I get it now.
>. I guess . . .
>James Hyder
How many griffons does it take to change a light bulb?
Or (or) for that matter, how many heralds?
Michael Fannin McCartney
Fremont, California
Kathleen Fuller
: How many griffons does it take to change a light bulb?
: Or (or) for that matter, how many heralds?
I don't know about griffons, but the correct answer for heralds is, of
course:
"What, metal on metal?!?!"
--Coeli
smad...@my-deja.com
and your profession are clear. what do you think?
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_hyder1.gif
for a crest? between a vol, the scales of justice, argent and sable.
and perhaps a mantle like the border? just an idea.
peace,
steven
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/page_coa.html
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Derek Howard
>
> try this very rough draft on for size.... i trust the allusion to hides
> and your profession are clear. what do you think?
>
> http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_hyder1.gif
>
> for a crest? between a vol, the scales of justice, argent and sable.
> and perhaps a mantle like the border? just an idea.
The border is not very allusive though. Furs are pelts rather than
hides.
I am reminded that Hyder is the name of a major Welsh utility company. I
cannot remember their logo but a dragon passant carrying a water flask
might be suitable for them. Any relevance for you?
Derek Howard
John Coo
> How many griffons does it take to change a light bulb?
> Or (or) for that matter, how many heralds?
They cant.
James Hyder
thanks very much for the effort.
I am aware of the Hyder firm in Wales but do not know of any connection. I
wonder if the company or the founder has/had arms?
Thanks, again, to all for the input.
Barry Gabriel
John Coo wrote:
Very good!
BG
smad...@my-deja.com
hyde...@aol.com (James Hyder) wrote:
> >> try this very rough draft on for size.... i trust the allusion to
hides
> >> and your profession are clear. what do you think?
> >>
> >> http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_hyder1.gif
> >>
> >> for a crest? between a vol, the scales of justice, argent and
sable.
> >> and perhaps a mantle like the border? just an idea.
> >
> The suggested shield is a bit much for my simple (pedestrian?) tastes.
But
> thanks very much for the effort.
> James Hyder
well....? now what? if you're still think of a hydra.... there's a
black and white illustration of a hydra on my website, taken from tresor
heraldique, but it's not a good drawing IMHO ... :
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/th_belzunce.gif
let me know what you decide upon.
steven
Barry Gabriel
"Michael F. McCartney" wrote:
> Barry--if the spiders are too creepy, why not just the web? That makes the
> spiders REALLY reclusive!
A shiver went up my spine when I read this. Not seeing the spiders would
probably creep me out even more.
BG