Order of Vitez
Reghorthy
knowledge I have about the Order of Vitez, it is attached to the Hungarian
Crown of Saint Stephen, and I believe may have been founded by the Hungarian
Regent Miklos Horthy. ( My handle's namesake!!!)
I did notice that on the Ermine Society's website that some of the members
of that particular society are recipiants of this Order. Is the Order of Vitez
given by a present day Hapsburg, or is it attached directly to the Apostolic
Crown of Saint Stephen? If attached to the Crown of Saint Stephen, it would be
the first Order that I heard of being attached to an inanimate object!!!!!!!!
Frederick J. Bainhauer III
Mario Glibic
Reghorthy <regh...@aol.com> wrote in message...
The Holy Crown of Hungaria was the highest institution in the realm,
symbolising rang that is higher than the King, who was considered the chief
servant of the Crown.
In Croatian language Vitez means Knight (I don't know about Hungarian)
Mario
Francois R. Velde
The order has a web site in Hungarian:
http://www.vitezi-rend.de/
and in German:
http://astra.2000.bei.t-online.de/vitez.htm
It seems to have been a hereditary distinction. The order was abolished by the
Soviets in 1945, but seems to have reconstituted itself in post-Communist
Hungary around 1992, "under a Habsburg grand-master" (unter habsburgischem
Magistrat) until 1997; then it split into three factions, but two factions
reunited.
--
François Velde
ve...@nospam.org (replace by "heraldica")
Heraldry Site: http://www.heraldica.org/
Christopher Szabo
<79vq8ukgmq9khu18o...@4ax.com>...wrote:
This website appears to be the "local" website of the "Captaincy" in
Germany. The information on it, however, is very dated. I will try to e-mail
them to see what the situation is.
This is not an official website of the Order of Vitez, however.
>and in German:
http://astra.2000.bei.t-online.de/vitez.htm
This website is also not an official website of the Order.
Our website is: www.vitezi-rend-hu . I apologise for the condition of the
website, it needs some coding-corrections. We will be translating it into
major languages eventually.
>It seems to have been a hereditary distinction.
The Order was the State Order given to people who had fought with
"vitez-ness" in WWI, and in the subsequent invasion of rump-Hungary by
Rumania, Czechoslovakia and Serbia and also those who tried to resist the
Red
Terror of 1919.
It was inheritable, and even went with a "land-grant", which was the first
step in the land-reform programme. The idea was to create a new "national
elite" in the utterly shattered Hungary of 1920. From 1920 onwards, the
title became very respected, and remained so among those Hungarians who fled
Hungary fro 1945 onwards.
Tragically enough, there came another opportunity for awarding the Order for
heroism, from 1941-1944, i.e., before Hungary was occupied by Germany, and
then the Soviet Union. The Order also awards bravery in the Hungarian
Uprising in 1956.
The order was abolished by the Soviets in 1945,
Yes....
> but seems to have reconstituted itself in post-Communist
>Hungary around 1992, "under a Habsburg grand-master" (unter habsburgischem
>Magistrat) until 1997; then it split into three factions, but two factions
>reunited.
This is not quite accurate. The members of the Order who fled to the West
contacted the exiled Regent on whether he wanted the Order continued. He
said yes, and Colonel-General Hugo Son'yi began the work of gathering
members together and reorganising in 1953. In 1956, founding-Captain Horthy
gave General So'nyi the obligation of being the Vice Captain of the Order.
After Horthy's death, and So'nyi's death soon after, those So'nyi had
organised elected the first Council of the Order since 1944, and this
Council elected Prince Joseph vitez Hapsburg to be its second leader, in
Hungarian, Fo:kapita'ny, or Chief-Captain. (It is perhaps best to translate
it as "Captain-General." There were other Captains-General until freedom
again came to Hungary in 1989. Until then, the Order of Vitez had operated
in exile as it was banned in Hungary. There were no investitures at this
time, and sons tended to keep the title or leave it. Horthy had wanted
investitures in a free Hungary.
As for a Hapsburg "Grand Master", the Order understood that it needed to
change the title "Chief-Captain" to "Grand Master", but this was a flash in
the pan. I am glad, because no Hungarian Knightly orders had "Grand
Masters."
The "re-constitution," as you refer to it, was created by the problems of
re-introducing a former State Order, which had been founded in a Monarchy,
but wished to operate in a legitimate, correct way in a Republic.
Discussions started in 1990, and the Order was advised to register itself as
a "social organisation", such as other orders did. It was here that a few
ambitious people basically left the Order and created their own
"counter-Order."
Our problem with this is the legal succession or continuity. We have it from
Admiral Horthy himself. They have it from each other. Anyway, the majority
of Hungarians now invested with the Order are with the historical one. Our
attitude is summed up by the Hungarian saying:
"The dog barks, but the caravan carries on...."
I have mentioned the above matters, which have all appeared in newspapers,
and therefore are in the public domain. However, I have no further wish to
write about people who form factions, factions of factions etc.
I will be happy to try to answer any questions regarding the Order itself,
however.
Christopher vitez Szabo
Lieutenant of the Knightly Order of Vitez
for the Southern African Region
NOTE: The "Lieutenant" is merely administrative. I am not "higher" or
"lower" than anyone.
Christopher Szabo
Reghorthy wrote in message <20020311123107...@mb-cr.aol.com>...
First, I need to make it clear that I am an office-bearer of the Knightly
Order of Vitez, and therefore my responses are to be take as if I was a
spokesman for the Order, not a private person.
The Vite'zi Rend, or Order of Gallantry was instituted by Regent Miklos
Horthy in 1920. The first investiture was made in August 1921.
The question relating to the "attachment" to the Hungarian Crown, called the
"Holy Crown of St.Stephen", is quite right. In medieval Hungarian
constitutional law, the Holy Crown was considered the source of all
political power. Thus the king did not rule by "divine right", but by
sufference of the other members of the Holy Crown. This expression meant
effectively "the body politic".
I wrote a 6-page brief history of Constitutional development in Hungary for
a historian, and if you want the "full nine yards", I will gladly e-mail it
to you.
I have no knowledge of the Ermine Society, and I am curious about them.
Could you perhaps give me their website URL? It is possible, of course, that
some of them could be members, because people who have performed a valuable
service to Hungary, or the nation as a whole, or to the Order of Vitez, to
receive Honourary Membership in the Order.
As regards the "Order being given by a present-day Hapsburg", the answer is
no. It is true that the current head of the Order is a Hapsburg, Prince
Joseph A'rpa'd of Hapsburg, but the Order does not need to be led by a
Hapsburg.
Looking forward to your info on the Ermine Society,
All the Best,
Christopher *vitez* Szabo
Christopher Szabo
Mario Glibic wrote in message ...
Thank you Mario, for the correct information on the Crown. I have a much
longer piece of writing that I can offer anyone concerning the
constitutional development of Hungary from 896-c.1550. After that, it's more
a backwards development than anything else.
The term "vitez" is a very rich one in Hungarian. The meaning encompasses
"warrior", "soldier" "knight". "vitez-se'g" means "gallantry". As you
probably know, many Hungarians in the late medieval era and during the long
wars with the Turks called themselves "vitez".
One of the places that was fought over in the Bosnian war 1992/3 was called
"Vitez", which refers to the many wars fought by Hungary and Croatia on the
Balkans to try to stem the Turkish advances.
With Best Regards,
Christopher v.Szabo
(v.=vitez, not "von")
Francois R. Velde
suum:
> From 1920 onwards, the
>title became very respected, and remained so among those Hungarians who fled
>Hungary fro 1945 onwards.
Including for characters like Waffen-Hauptsturmführer (captain of the SS)
Hermándy-Berencz György and Waffen-Gruppenführer (lieutenant-general of the SS)
Grassy József?
Christopher Szabo
Francois R. Velde wrote in message ...
>In medio rec.heraldry aperuit "Christopher Szabo"
<cavs...@netactive.co.za> os
>suum:
>> From 1920 onwards, the
>>title became very respected, and remained so among those Hungarians who
fled
>>Hungary fro 1945 onwards.
>
>Including for characters like Waffen-Hauptsturmführer (captain of the SS)
>Hermándy-Berencz György and Waffen-Gruppenführer (lieutenant-general of the
SS)
>Grassy József?
Why am I not surprised at this??? Coming from a Western European who has an
oh-so-simple view of the II World War???
The answer is as follows:
The first person I have never heard of, and could have had the order, and
later joined the SS as a collaborator.
The second was a *de facto* war criminal, who was in charge of the
Ujvidek/Novi Sad massacre committed by the Royal Hungarian Army. He and two
or three others were brought up on war crimes charges by the Royal Hungarian
Government in 1943. The Nazi secret services enabled them to escape to
Germany, which they then "thanked" by joining the to-be-formed Hungarian SS
divisions. These never saw combat, thank God.
Yours,
Chris Szabo
Francois R. Velde
> Francois R. Velde wrote in message ...
>>In medio rec.heraldry aperuit "Christopher Szabo"
> <cavs...@netactive.co.za> os
>>suum:
>>> From 1920 onwards, the
>>>title became very respected, and remained so among those Hungarians who
> fled
>>>Hungary fro 1945 onwards.
>>
>>Including for characters like Waffen-Hauptsturmführer (captain of the SS)
>>Hermándy-Berencz György and Waffen-Gruppenführer (lieutenant-general of the
> SS)
>>Grassy József?
> Why am I not surprised at this??? Coming from a Western European who has an
> oh-so-simple view of the II World War???
I readily admit to having a oh-so-simple view of the Waffen-SS, yes. When I see
that a title is "very respected" appears to be born by SS officers, it prompts me
to ask for clarification, and you've provided it.
> The answer is as follows:
> The first person I have never heard of, and could have had the order, and
> later joined the SS as a collaborator.
> The second was a *de facto* war criminal, who was in charge of the
> Ujvidek/Novi Sad massacre committed by the Royal Hungarian Army. He and two
> or three others were brought up on war crimes charges by the Royal Hungarian
> Government in 1943. The Nazi secret services enabled them to escape to
> Germany, which they then "thanked" by joining the to-be-formed Hungarian SS
> divisions. These never saw combat, thank God.
Thank you for the clarifications. I know of other SS units composed of non-German
volunteers (such as the French one, which did fight).
I found those names on one of the sites I mentioned, which you said were not
official sites. It lists 28 members of the pre-1945 order "known to the author".
Another SS officer is Waffen-Standartenführer Peinlich Béla.
--
François R. Velde
ve...@nospam.org (replace by "heraldica")
Heraldica Web Site: http://www.heraldica.org/
Christopher Szabo
>Francois R. Velde wrote in message ...
>>In medio rec.heraldry aperuit "Christopher Szabo"
><cavs...@netactive.co.za> os
>>
>>Hermándy-Berencz György and Waffen-Gruppenführer (lieutenant-general of
the
>SS)
>>Grassy József?
Additional: About oversimplifications of World War Two:
I do not know what nationality you are, Mr. Velde, clearly, your name
appears to be Benelux, perhaps Dutch. Whatever. From my point of view, you
come from a part of the world that has never really known suffering. When I
say "Suffering", I do not mean small difficulties. I mean major horrors,
such as the loss of half of a nation. The countries to the east of the "rich
western" zone became poor because they stood in the way of attacks from the
East and Southeast, and did this for centuries. This is especially true of
the Balkan nations, Croatia, Hungary and Poland. I therefore consider snide
comments from a person from this area to be mere hypocrisy.
I reacted in anger to your snide comment, and I say to you that this sort of
attack should not exist on rec.heraldry. If you want to argue politics, the
rights and wrongs of WWII, then I ask you to use another forum.
Let us suppose, that someone in rec.heraldry were informing the Newsgroup of
the Order of the British Empire.
Would you then, in the same sarcastic, snide tone, ask them: "So your Order
was into slavery and murdering Boers and Blacks in Africa, huh??"
Should you write something like that, I am sure the British members on this
forum would take you to pieces. Don't expect anything better from me. It's
not what you asked that bothered me, it was your "moral high tone." From a
*Western European??" Should I start listing the crimes of Western Europe?
No, that has no place on this NG.
OTHER:
This part is to help rec.heraldry readers understand why I took umbrage,
especially from a western European as regards WWII.
In Western Europe, the moral issues surrounding WWII were, and remain, very
straightforward. If you were from a small country, say, Belgium, and you
were invaded by Nazi Germany, then there were two options: Either support
the legitimate government - which would be in exile - and resist the Nazi
occupation somehow, even if only in spirit, or... collaborate and be a
traitor.
When one looks at Nazi-occupied Western Europe, the number of collaborators
was very high, especially in countries that were "Germanic", such as
Holland. It would not be impossible for people in the Benelux countries,
Denmark and Norway, for instance, to hold an Order from their legitimate
government, then collaborate with the Nazis later. Why should Hungarians
have been any different. There are no nations made up of angels, but also
none of devils, either!
However, in the nations wedged between Germany and the Soviet Union, the
moral choices were very very hard. So hard, that, for instance, in 1941,
when Hungarian Prime Minister Count Pal Teleki was pressured by Nazi Germany
to allow German troops through Hungary to attack Yugoslavia, and was also
threatened with a declaration of war by Britain if he did, he could do no
more than commit suicide.
That was a brave and moral decision. But entire countries cannot commit
suicide! (Much as many Western self-righteous commentator, like Mr. Velde,
would have wanted us to do!)
Therefore, the simple Western model of Germans = bad, own government in
exile (Free Belgians, Free French etc) = good, cannot apply to Central
Europe. In Central Europe, the leaders of countries had to make hard
decisions on allying themselves in some shape or form with criminal
governments,
either Nazi or Communist. Look at the Soviet attack of Poland. Western
historians always call Hitler the aggressor, which is true enough, but
generally leave our "Uncle Joe" Stalin, who was also an aggressor.
Dear Rec.heraldry.
I hope I have made clearer the incredibly difficult position of the Central
European countries!
Chris
Francois R. Velde
>I do not know what nationality you are, Mr. Velde, clearly, your name
>appears to be Benelux, perhaps Dutch.
I find it instructive that you need to see my passport before replying to my
posts. Somehow, what I say is not enough, you have to have some hook on which
to hang your prejudices. It is not enough for you that I am a human being; no,
you have to know where I come from, so you can invent at your leisure what I am
supposed to think and believe, what I know and what I don't know. Because, of
course, once you've seen my passport, you know all there is to know about me,
don't you? What I really am or know doesn't matter.
> Whatever. From my point of view, you
>come from a part of the world that has never really known suffering.
Ah, but my passport is not on display, is it? "Whatever". The lack of
information won't bother you. Just go ahead and assume. "From your point of
view" I am what you think I am; who cares about the truth.
Having proclaimed me to be a "Western European", then you can ascribe to me
views I did not express (because, naturally, all Western Europeans have
identical views, don't they?); and then have a splendid time attacking them. I
have no need to defend views that are not my own, so there is really no role for
me in this thread anymore.
So now I'll leave you to enjoy the company of your straw-men. A very solitary
and self-gratifying sport in my view, but to each his own, I always say.
--
François Velde
ve...@nospam.org (replace by "heraldica")
Heraldry Site: http://www.heraldica.org/
Reghorthy
nobility,royalty, closely relate to heraldry, I believe this is the proper
forum for discussing such. Politics, as it relates to heraldry etc., is okay,
if it relates. Unfortunately, Mr. Szabo is right. If someone started
attaching attrocities and all the worlds ills to British Orders of knighthood,
there would be Brits jumping out of the woodwork to defend the British Orders.
However, there are some in this newsgroup who have the attitude that if an
order is not British or Papal, then the order doesn't count. Hungarian Orders,
Ethipian Orders, and even minor household Orders or Confraternities such as
that of the O'Conor Don, do matter. This forum is meant to be about Heraldry
and it's related subjects, NOT POLITICS.
Christopher Szabo
>I readily admit to having a oh-so-simple view of the Waffen-SS, yes. When
I will attempt to further clarify this, which was an incredibly complex
time, not only in Hungary, but throughout the region. Oh, and if you think
Hungary's situation was very ambigious, both morally and politically, then
consider Ukraine, where partisans fought first against Germans, then against
the Red partisans, then against the Red army. From a Nazi German point of
view, the "untrustworthy" Hungarians "collaborated with the enemy" by
evacuating UPA partisans to Hungarian military hospitals!! And then there is
Yugoslavia....
So: Hungary's only national interest in the Second World War was to stay out
of it. This was made impossible by geography. Hungary in fact surrendered
"de jure" to the Western Allies in 1943, but NOT to the USSR. Sadly, it was
not possible to make it "de facto." On March 19th, 1944, Hungary was invaded
and occupied in about a day by the Germans. Hungary's government was kicked
out, most members arrested.
The choices left to those still in any authority, such as the army leaders,
some members of the Crown Council/Cabinet, and the Regent, were not "good
vs. bad!" They were "bad vs,worse, or worse vs. much worse!" Further, they
had no idea that the demarcation lines had long ago been drawn between the
West and the USSR. So, always hoping for Western Allied liberation (*real*
liberation), the Hungarians fought on to the last. In actual fact, there
really was a plan to invade the Balkans, and liberate the region. This was
to have been led by Free Polish General Anders, but tragically, never
materialised.
Then, after the only recorded case of Axis soldiers preventing Nazi agents
from deporting Jews - by the Hungarian 1st Armoured Divison - which saved
Budapest's Jews (for a while, anyway) Hitler got sick of what was left of
Hungarian sovereignty, and arrested Regent Horthy, and basically anyone with
any decency left in the High Command.
Therefore the period from October 15th, 1944 to April/May, 1945, or should I
say, October 1956, or rather, 1989....was a hell for Hungary, as it was
occupied in the west by Nazis, and in the east by the Soviets. The average
Hungarian soldier did fight on. Not because he was necessarily a Nazi, but
because the way the Soviets behaved made him determined to fight. I recently
read a scholarly analysis that indicates 300 000 cases of rape by the Red
Army, for
instance.
Obviously, as in any nation, we Hungarians had our scum, as well as fools,
and the Hungarian Nazi "Arrow Cross" party and its activities, both in
fighting the legitimate authorities, as well as murdering Jews (NOTE. Jewish
Hungarians!!) will, I am sad to say, remain an indelible stain on our
history. Also, after 1945, quite a few of these wonderful chaps were happy
to join the AVH, or Hungarian Communist Secret Police.
The situation was incredibly ambigious. Hungary produced the highest number
of licence-built Messerchmitt Bf 109s and Me.210's of any Axis ally. Now,
who owned the factories??? Baron Manfred Weisz, a man of Jewish ancestry!!
It was totally crazy!
I realise this is getting long, so I will mention one last thing.
Please do note that both the Nazis and the Communists had essentially the
same method of warfare. First, the regular army units (Wehrmach, Waffen-SS,
or Red Army) fought its way through a given locality. Then, in the German
case, came the Algemeine SS "Einsatzgruppen", the SD and the GESTAPO, who
rounded up those people that their ideology felt should not live, or at
least not be free, such as Jews, politicians, Christians, and on and on. The
Soviets also, after the Red Army moved through, brought in SMERSH and NKVD
units of the Interior Ministry. These also removed people, according to
*their* ideology, whether they be Kulaks, bourgeois or "Fascists,"
like the Members of the Vitez Order, or like my "fascist" aunt, who was
then, and is again, a Nun of the Sisters of Mercy.
For example, and I could quote many examples, my Uncle Eleme'r was deported
by SMERSH or NKVD units under General Ivan Serov to ...somewhere ...He never
came back. His crime? He was an ethnic Hungarian and a "bourgeois".
This same General Serov deported the entire Chechen nation, inter alia.
So, when is HIS war crimes trial coming up?
I hope this has helped "clarify" the utter tangled moral and political
situation at the time.
Best Regards,
Chris
Christopher Szabo
Reghorthy wrote in message <20020315110043...@mb-cr.aol.com>...
I'll be the first to apologise about referring to politics of 50 yrs ago and
more. But things DO have reasons, and that was what I was trying to explain.
Dear Reghorthy,
You absolutely MUST keep in mind that even in the 21st Century, with all our
democracy, human rights and so on and so forth... all are equal, but some
are more equal than others!
I am sorry Mr. Velde felt that my concept of equal rights fairness for all
is unacceptable. I have experienced the same bias against certain
"primitive" peoples, both in East-Central Europe, and here in Africa. We had
a system here based on race called "Apartheid." That was evil. Now, the
Benes Decrees - also based on ethnicity only - are defended by both the
European Union and, naturally enough, the Czech and Slovak governments. To
the credit of their journalists, these are not applauding.
So Apartheid in South Africa is wrong, Apartheid against Germans and
Hungarians "will not affect EU accession", to quote Gunter Verheugen.
Yup, I tell you, some are "more equal" than others!
Regards,
Chris
Christopher Szabo
Uh huh. That is what is called Moral Cowardice. A "noble" enough vice! As
to your nationality, you're right, I don't need to know it. But I know when
I'm being talked down to, mate!
Chris
Guy Stair Sainty
says...
Yet another completely unjustified assumption based on nothing but personal
prejudice about someone else's views without any actual attempt to establish
what those views might be.
Where has anyone on this forum attacked the legitimacy of Orders
from any European state? Where has anyone attacked any genuine Orders whose
historical claims are founded in fact, rather than fanatsy? There have not
as far as I know been any criticism of the legitimacy of Ethiopian Orders,
for example, only questions over the legitimacy of the claims of those
who purport to award them - something which the very existence of two
such competing authorities puts into question automatically without any
help from me or anyone else.
As for Hungarian Orders, those awarded by the former Kings were of course
perfectly legitimate; those founded by the Hungarian Kingdom between the
first and second world wars likewise. There are obvious questions surrounding
the Order of Vitez and its present status as an Order of Knighthood in
Hungarian law which are interesting to discuss and which Mr Szabo has
addressed fairly and in some detail. The Order of Vitez makes no claims
about its history and origins that are not perfectly in accord with the
historical record.
As for the discussion about WWII and the difficulties faced by Hungary, its
government and people, this is clearly beyond the scope of this forum and
I think that Mr Szabo has probably misunderstood a perfectly reasonable
question concerning the activities of certain of the members of the Order
of Vitez who in one way or another collaborated with the Nazi regime.
There were two members of the German Johanniter Order who when given a
choice of resigning from the Order or from the Waffen SS & chose the latter.
This does not brand the whole of the Johanniter Order (to the contrary,
at least a dozen members were involved in the July 20th plot), anymore
than the actions of 2 members of the Order of Vitez brand that Order.
Nothing Mr Velde said suggested that it did, nor that he had any views
one way or the other or Hungary's culpability or otherwise in what anyone
with even a superficial knowledge of those times cannot judge in black and
white terms. It is simply worth noting that some among Hungary's military
elite were ready to compromise with, actively serve under, or assist in
the crimes of the German Nazi government.
Guy Stair Sainty
www.chivalricorders.org
Christopher Szabo
Guy Stair Sainty wrote in message ...
Thank you for the entirely reasonable tone and factual matter state above. I
do admit that I overreacted to Mr. Velde's answer. It is a question of being
tarred with the "Nazi Collaborator" brush far too often that has given rise
to this overreaction.
If Mr. Velde had asked his - entirely fair - question without the snide,
superior tone, there would have been no problem.
In future, I will work on not being so oversensitive. I hope others will
keep within the bounds of reasonableness and politeness.
Best Regards,
Chris