ORIGINAL BARRED HELM

for Nicolai

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May 20, 2012, 9:33:53 AM5/20/12

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...as I said, in all these years
i had only found one, this helm was link twice in two different
Russian related websites, sadly I can't find those links any more!

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/2471/crownc.th.jpg

Does anybody know the history and/or origin/age of this Helm?

It surely looks like the same workmanship as the Gemellions!?

__________________________________________________________
sadly I am not sure about the Helm at the Cardiff Castle Stairway,
it could be possible that they worked in an original Helm!!!???

http://www.kitchenclarity.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/cardiff-stairway.jpg

http://www.kitchenclarity.com/2010/11/cardiff-castle-welsh-life-part-4/

..I know...Cardiff Castle is Victorian....;)

for Nicolai

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May 21, 2012, 6:16:08 AM5/21/12

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...just to give you a larger picture of the first helmet!

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg207/scaled.php?server=207&filename=crownc.jpg&res=landing

for Nicolai

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May 21, 2012, 8:28:56 AM5/21/12

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...yes, yes...
I did compare the "Cardiff Castle" helmet...!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b9/Ren%C3%A9_d%27Anjou_Livre_des_tournois_France_Provence_XVe_si%C3%A8cle_Barth%C3%A9lemy_d%27Eyck2.jpg

Turenne

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May 21, 2012, 3:46:23 PM5/21/12

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It looks like a 15th century pageant helmet. Here's a similar one worn by Rene D'Anjou, except the bars are latticed:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b9/Ren%C3%A9_d%27Anjou_Livre_des_tournois_France_Provence_XVe_si%C3%A8cle_Barth%C3%A9lemy_d%27Eyck2.jpg

RL

for Nicolai

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May 21, 2012, 4:08:41 PM5/21/12

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Thanks RL, for double checking,

so....it might be an original, they might have chosen this as a way to
display it!

This would make "two" original helmets,
(can we trash the rumor, that they were made out of leather)
also interesting, that the upper part of the mantling is out of metal,
the actual mantel might have been attached in some way underneath the
metal part???

But there are other possible explanations for this,
somebody would have to check them up close!

for Nicolai

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May 21, 2012, 4:25:14 PM5/21/12

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...but maybe I am wrong, .....
and
the original mantling never was made out of cloth
instead out of metal,
that might explain why always the inside or outside
(depending on region)
of the
"Heraldic Mantle" is shown in metal?????????????????

for Nicolai

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May 30, 2012, 4:50:38 AM5/30/12

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have found a better picture,
...well it looks real!?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_oDI5oZ3OJMM/TMr5tlkJ6aI/AAAAAAAAKNY/UXFSyxQo9zk/s1600/Cardiff+Castle,+interior,+stairs,+baby+dragon.jpg

Outis

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May 30, 2012, 7:46:17 AM5/30/12

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On May 30, 10:50 am, for Nicolai <imagemakers...@aol.com> wrote:
> have found a better picture,
> ...well it looks real!?
>

> http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_oDI5oZ3OJMM/TMr5tlkJ6aI/AAAAAAAAKNY/UXFSyxQ...

At this point I find it hard to tell whether it's art immitating life
or life immitating heraldic art.

for Nicolai

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May 30, 2012, 9:06:09 AM5/30/12

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I would rephrase..............

> At this point I find it hard to tell whether it's real
> or art imitating historical past....!

http://ic2.pbase.com/g1/07/595307/2/128134218.zDs0B1qE.jpg

for Nicolai

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May 30, 2012, 8:58:57 AM5/30/12

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yes, ....very hard!

Frontal view, here you can better see the air holes around the neck!

http://ic2.pbase.com/g1/07/595307/2/128134218.zDs0B1qE.jpg

Turenne

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May 30, 2012, 4:30:12 PM5/30/12

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On Wednesday, May 30, 2012 1:58:57 PM UTC+1, for Nicolai wrote:

>
> Frontal view, here you can better see the air holes around the neck!
>
> http://ic2.pbase.com/g1/07/595307/2/128134218.zDs0B1qE.jpg

That looks like the Crichton crest: 'A dragon spouting out fire Proper' on a marquess's coronet. Since it was the 2nd Marquess of Bute who added 'Crichton' to his surname 'Stuart' in 1805, my guess is that the helm is probably late Georgian, or more probably Victorian...

RL

for Nicolai

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May 30, 2012, 7:33:57 PM5/30/12

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On May 30, 1:30 pm, Turenne <rick.lich...@virgin.net> wrote:
....spouting out fire .....
> RL

Thank you RL,
that's a great way to approach it,

the problem I have is
that I only see a regular dragon tongue
(ending in an arrow)
and regular dragons are quite common...also in France and elsewhere!

Maybe somebody has a connection to the curator at the Cardiff
Castle ???
IF they know anything!

All I found was the designer of the stairs,
no mentioning regarding the origin of the helmet!

Cardiff castle's interior includes Victorian and older medieval items!

for Nicolai

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May 31, 2012, 8:09:30 AM5/31/12

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now we have three.............!

http://www7b.biglobe.ne.jp/~bprince/hr/foxdavies/img/360-1b.gif

FIG. 607.--Helmet, with Latticed Visor (end of fifteenth century).

for Nicolai

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May 31, 2012, 8:05:38 AM5/31/12

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now we have three....!

Turenne

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Jun 1, 2012, 7:17:16 PM6/1/12

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On Thursday, May 31, 2012 12:33:57 AM UTC+1, for Nicolai wrote:

> that's a great way to approach it,
>
> the problem I have is
> that I only see a regular dragon tongue
> (ending in an arrow)
> and regular dragons are quite common...also in France and elsewhere!
>

I don't see what else it could be. Dragon, Crichton and Cardiff Castle owned by the Crichton-Stuart Marquesses of Bute all add up to a Victorian recreation of an imaginary Tournament Helm.

RL

for Nicolai

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Aug 5, 2012, 5:02:50 AM8/5/12

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this is self explanatory....

"""Hans Talhoffer 1446-1459"""

http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Hans_Talhoffer/K%C3%B6nigsegg

http://www.schielhau.org/images/tal.ac.043.gif

...this fighting style is called (Gerichtskampf- Judgement-Fight)
and is a fight to the death!

....so no show fight and no leather involved !
(...it is identical to the french helmet construction)

For more
google
"Hans Talhoffer"

for Nicolai

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Aug 5, 2012, 5:21:14 AM8/5/12

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I guess I wasn't that far off from reality.....

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg27/scaled.php?server=27&filename=crownbuegelhelmv4copy.jpg&res=landing