Oliver Cromwell

[Derek Howard]

Last October we had a discussion about Oliver Cromwell's arms and
those of his family. I thought it would be worth giving the link here
to an interesting item in the Museum of London collection:

Funeral Banner.
A painted and gilded silk 'taffety' escutcheon depicting the Arms of
the Commonwealth, with an escutcheon of pretence, the paternal arms of
Oliver Cromwell (a lion rampant) impaling those of his wife Elizabeth
(née Bourchier) - three leopards passant, or, spotted the first. Over
all an Imperial crown, composed of crosses patee, and strawberry
leaves, four gold bars meeting arch-wise, over a low red cap. The
field, inscribed: 'Oliver Cromwell’s scutcheon that was taken from his
Hearse ye 23rd Nov. 1658.' The silk was folded into ten small squares
and was mounted in a glazed wooden frame.

http://col.museumoflondon.org.uk/media/CABINET/full/A13818/full.jpg

Derek Howard

[Tim Powys-Lybbe]

Excellent stuff and many thanks for finding it.

I wonder who might have decided that those were the arms he should use?

Why would a pseudo-sovereign have arms of pretence? Surely the
sovereign solely has the arms of their sovereigndom (trying not to have
gender implications), everything else is subsumed into the sovereign's.
Or was this to show he was merely a Protector, not a sovereign?

Then what arms did Young Protector Richard use?

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
for a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

[Chris Pitt Lewis]

In message <mpro.m3i28q0q...@powys.org>, Tim Powys-Lybbe
<t...@powys.org> writes

The same arms without impaling Bourchier - i.e. the Arms of the
Commonwealth with an escutcheon of Cromwell, surmounted by a crown, are
used on the reverse of the coins minted in 1656 and 1658, which have
Oliver's portrait on the obverse. So I assume that they were entirely
official (in so far as anything done in the Commonwealth period can be
regarded as official :-)) .

For example, http://www.coins-of-the-uk.co.uk/pics/onesh.html
--
Chris Pitt Lewis

[gregs talkin]

That's a great find Derek; thanks.

Do we have a date for Cromwell's orginal grant? and why do you suppose
he would settle on such a design for his arms?

[Turenne]

These are the arms that Derek may have been referring to. They appear avove his house in Huntington:

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/975644

To quote Francois Velde:

See Henry W. Henfrey: On Some Medals and Seals of the Cromwell Family, Journal
of the British Archaeological Association (1877) 33:381-394
http://books.google.com/books?id=fDEGAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA383

"1st, sable, a lion rampant argent, for Cromwell; 2nd, sable, three spear-heads
argent, for Caradoc Vreichfras; 3rd, sable, a chevron between three fleurs-delis
argent, for Collwyn ap Tangno, Lord of Efionydd; 4th, gules, three chevrons
argent, for Jestyn ap Gwrgant, Prince of Glamorgan; 5th, argent, a lion rampant
sable, for Madoc ap Meredith, the last Prince of Powys; 6th, or, on a chevron
sable, a mullet argent, for Murfyn."

He doesn't mention the unicorn salient on a crusily of cross crosslets or. This
quarter appears among a collection of 21 shields in a bow window of the house of
Sir Oliver, uncle of the Protector, at Hinchingbrook, described here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=VXJbAAAAQAAJ&pg=PP11
They are Don/Dunn/Doane, for Sir Angel Don, father of Elizabeth, wife of Sir
Thomas Myrffin/Murfyn (quarter 6); their daughter Frances married Richard
Williams, alias Sir Richard Cromwell, great-grandfather of the Protector; see
Mark Noble's Memoirs of the protectoral-house of Cromwell, p. 19:
http://books.google.com/books?id=DJVCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA19

Further discussions:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.heraldry/oliver$20cromwell$20arms/rec.heraldry/mxgOJm4Ktzc/WcsEMHWf5nsJ

RL

[Outis]

On May 5, 9:51 pm, Turenne <rick.lich...@virgin.net> wrote:
> These are the arms that Derek may have been referring to. They appear avove his house in Huntington:
>
> http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/975644
>
> To quote Francois Velde:
>
> See Henry W. Henfrey: On Some Medals and Seals of the Cromwell Family, Journal

> of the British Archaeological Association (1877) 33:381-394http://books.google.com/books?id=fDEGAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA383

>
> "1st, sable, a lion rampant argent, for Cromwell; 2nd, sable, three spear-heads
> argent, for Caradoc Vreichfras; 3rd, sable, a chevron between three fleurs-delis
> argent, for Collwyn ap Tangno, Lord of Efionydd; 4th, gules, three chevrons
> argent, for Jestyn ap Gwrgant, Prince of Glamorgan; 5th, argent, a lion rampant
> sable, for Madoc ap Meredith, the last Prince of Powys; 6th, or, on a chevron
> sable, a mullet argent, for Murfyn."
>
> He doesn't mention the unicorn salient on a crusily of cross crosslets or.  This
> quarter appears among a collection of 21 shields in a bow window of the house of
> Sir Oliver, uncle of the Protector, at Hinchingbrook, described here:http://books.google.com/books?id=VXJbAAAAQAAJ&pg=PP11
> They are Don/Dunn/Doane, for Sir Angel Don, father of Elizabeth, wife of Sir
> Thomas Myrffin/Murfyn (quarter 6); their daughter Frances married Richard
> Williams, alias Sir Richard Cromwell, great-grandfather of the Protector; see
> Mark Noble's Memoirs of the protectoral-house of Cromwell, p. 19:http://books.google.com/books?id=DJVCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA19
>
> Further discussions:
>

> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.heraldry/oliver$20crom...
>
> RL

The blazon doesn't match the image, should be:
3rd. argent a chevron between three fleurs-de-lis sable
4th. argent three chevrons gules
also the missing 7th: azure semé-de-lis or, a unicorn rampant argent

I wonder whether it was a blazoning or interpreting error.

[Turenne]

I didn't check the blazon Outis; I took Francois' word for it...The whole thing seems to be made up anyway!

RL

[Joseph McMillan]

On May 4, 9:17 am, Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org> wrote:
>
> Why would a pseudo-sovereign have arms of pretence?

I think it is probably a modern mistake to describe the inescutcheon
as being "arms of pretense." The pattern is analogous to that of
modern Swedish, Danish, and Swedish royal practice, in which the arms
of dominion of the territories one rules are quartered on the main
shield with the ruler's family arms surtout on an inescutcheon. It
shouldn't be particularly surprising that Cromwell hit on a similar
solution to symbolize his unprecedented position, especially
considering that marshalling customs were still somewhat in flux at
that time anyway.

Joseph McMillan