Remington Model 11 shotgun. WWII?
Louis Boyd
purchased one which has "US" and a "flaming bomb" stamped on the
receiver opposite the cocking lever. Other than that it looks like a
civilian model complete with engraved duck and pheasant scenes on the
lower receiver and checkered walnut furniture. The barrel is marked
with MM on the left side which I think means 1943 and the word CYL, no
doubt for cylinder. The barrel is about 22" with a Cutts/Lyman
expansion chamber. SN is 475XXX. No rear site other than a checkered
stripe down the receiver, a brass bead front site on the compensator.
I'd be interested to know how these were deployed in the war effort.
Was the Cutts compensator a standard military setup or a later add-on?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Learn about rec.guns at http://www.recguns.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
New! Win a FULTON ARMORY dedicated .22 AR-15 or a HENRY GOLDEN BOY .22
while protecting your Second Amendment rights in MPFO's latest raffle.
For details see us on the web at http://www.myguns.net/mpfo.php
J.A.Freeman
It was used for training gunners on bombers. The trainee was put in the back
of a truck and driven around the range while clay targets were thrown for
them to shoot at. The whole idea was to teach them to lead a moving target
as you don't shoot where the target is but in front of it. You shoot where
it will be by the time the shot gets to the target. Same way shooting at
fighters with a machine gun attacking a bomber. If you aim at the fighter by
the time the bullets get to it the fighter will be gone as it is moving.
Natman
<bo...@apt0.sao.arizona.edu> wrote:
#What was the roll of the Remington M11 shotgun in WWII? I recently
#purchased one which has "US" and a "flaming bomb" stamped on the
#receiver opposite the cocking lever. Other than that it looks like a
#civilian model complete with engraved duck and pheasant scenes on the
#lower receiver and checkered walnut furniture. The barrel is marked
#with MM on the left side which I think means 1943 and the word CYL, no
#doubt for cylinder. The barrel is about 22" with a Cutts/Lyman
#expansion chamber. SN is 475XXX. No rear site other than a checkered
#stripe down the receiver, a brass bead front site on the compensator.
#
#I'd be interested to know how these were deployed in the war effort.
#Was the Cutts compensator a standard military setup or a later add-on?
#
#
The military used shotguns of this type to shoot clay pigeons. This
was good training for pilots and gunners to learn lead and follow
through.
Christopher Morton
<jfree...@comcast.net> wrote:
#Apparently you don't watch the History channel.
#It was used for training gunners on bombers. The trainee was put in the back
#of a truck and driven around the range while clay targets were thrown for
#them to shoot at. The whole idea was to teach them to lead a moving target
#as you don't shoot where the target is but in front of it. You shoot where
#it will be by the time the shot gets to the target. Same way shooting at
#fighters with a machine gun attacking a bomber. If you aim at the fighter by
#the time the bullets get to it the fighter will be gone as it is moving.
They were also used by the Marines in the Pacific. At Banzai charge
range, a semi-auto shotgun beats an Arisaka every time.
--
More blood for oil... in my name!
sta...@prolynx.com
Louis Boyd wrote:
# What was the roll of the Remington M11 shotgun in WWII? I recently
# purchased one which has "US" and a "flaming bomb" stamped on the
# receiver opposite the cocking lever. Other than that it looks like a
# civilian model complete with engraved duck and pheasant scenes on the
# lower receiver and checkered walnut furniture. The barrel is marked
# with MM on the left side which I think means 1943 and the word CYL,
no
# doubt for cylinder. The barrel is about 22" with a Cutts/Lyman
# expansion chamber. SN is 475XXX. No rear site other than a
checkered
# stripe down the receiver, a brass bead front site on the compensator.
#
# I'd be interested to know how these were deployed in the war effort.
# Was the Cutts compensator a standard military setup or a later
add-on?
#
The Cutts was probably a later addition, CYL means "cylinder".
Somebody probably bought a surplus riot gun and wanted to shoot ducks,
needed a choke. Cutts weren't usually added to riot guns from the
factory. After the war, a lot of shotguns were dumped on the surplus
market since they weren't really standard.
The War Department bought all sorts of shotguns at the start of the
war, the sporting scenes on the receiver isn't unusual. Later ones had
plain receivers and furniture. A lot of the sporting guns went to
train aircraft gunners, some of the riot guns were used for MP duties,
some made it into combat.
For a more complete rundown, look up a copy of Bruce Canfield's "A
Collector's Guide to United States Combat Shotguns".
Stan
Natman
<cm...@cox.net> wrote:
#On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 02:22:09 +0000 (UTC), "J.A.Freeman"
#<jfree...@comcast.net> wrote:
#
##Apparently you don't watch the History channel.
##It was used for training gunners on bombers. The trainee was put in the back
##of a truck and driven around the range while clay targets were thrown for
##them to shoot at. The whole idea was to teach them to lead a moving target
##as you don't shoot where the target is but in front of it. You shoot where
##it will be by the time the shot gets to the target. Same way shooting at
##fighters with a machine gun attacking a bomber. If you aim at the fighter by
##the time the bullets get to it the fighter will be gone as it is moving.
#
#They were also used by the Marines in the Pacific. At Banzai charge
#range, a semi-auto shotgun beats an Arisaka every time.
#
While shotguns were certainly used, I believe the 2 shot magazine of
the Remingtons would make a pump such as a Winchester 12 or 97 more
attractive in combat.
sta...@prolynx.com
Natman wrote:
# On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 21:14:41 +0000 (UTC), Christopher Morton
# <cm...@cox.net> wrote:
#
# #
# While shotguns were certainly used, I believe the 2 shot magazine of
# the Remingtons would make a pump such as a Winchester 12 or 97 more
# attractive in combat.
#
Only the Sportsman had the truncated magazine and I've never seen one
with the Ordnance bomb on it. The regular M11 had a full-sized
magazine and would hold 5 including one in the chamber. Must be you've
never seen the regular ones. I suspect that if the government had
bought some Sportsmans, they quickly had regular magazine tubes spun
into them. Gun Parts still has conversion kits to change Sportsmans
over to the full capacity magazine. The 3-shot guns were made both by
FN/Browning and Remington and were the result of early US legislation
on waterfowling. Later, it was ruled that a wooden magazine plug
limiting capacity was acceptable and those fixed, limited capacity
models went out of production. You rarely see an unaltered Sportsman
these days.
Stan
Natman
#
#Natman wrote:
## On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 21:14:41 +0000 (UTC), Christopher Morton
## <cm...@cox.net> wrote:
##
#
## #
## While shotguns were certainly used, I believe the 2 shot magazine of
## the Remingtons would make a pump such as a Winchester 12 or 97 more
## attractive in combat.
##
#Only the Sportsman had the truncated magazine and I've never seen one
#with the Ordnance bomb on it. The regular M11 had a full-sized
#magazine and would hold 5 including one in the chamber. Must be you've
#never seen the regular ones. I suspect that if the government had
#bought some Sportsmans, they quickly had regular magazine tubes spun
#into them. Gun Parts still has conversion kits to change Sportsmans
#over to the full capacity magazine. The 3-shot guns were made both by
#FN/Browning and Remington and were the result of early US legislation
#on waterfowling. Later, it was ruled that a wooden magazine plug
#limiting capacity was acceptable and those fixed, limited capacity
#models went out of production. You rarely see an unaltered Sportsman
#these days.
#
#Stan
#
I own a Sportsman in military trim. complete with bomb cartouches and
"Military Finish" stamped on the side. It still has the short mag. Not
a problem if you're shooting skeet. I also own a regular model 11.
Haven't seen one of those in military trim, but I wouldn't be
surprised if there were some.
sta...@prolynx.com
Natman wrote:
# #
# #Natman wrote:
# #
# I own a Sportsman in military trim. complete with bomb cartouches and
Not
# a problem if you're shooting skeet. I also own a regular model 11.
# Haven't seen one of those in military trim, but I wouldn't be
# surprised if there were some.
#
All of the Ordnance-marked M11s that I've seen have been regular-length
magazine models and have had riot-length cylinder choke barrels. What
does your Sportsman have for a barrel and does it have Ordnance
markings anywhere on it? I could see it having a skeet barrel
originally, if I were training complete tyros in gunnery, I wouldn't
want a full magazine in their hands. Since it wouldn't see combat,
short magazine capacity wouldn't make any difference.
Stan
sta...@prolynx.com
Natman wrote:
# #
# #Natman wrote:
# #
Not
# a problem if you're shooting skeet. I also own a regular model 11.
# Haven't seen one of those in military trim, but I wouldn't be
# surprised if there were some.
#
All of the Ordnance-marked M11s that I've seen have been regular-length
magazine models and have had riot-length cylinder choke barrels. What
does your Sportsman have for a barrel and does it have Ordnance
markings anywhere on it? I could see it having a skeet barrel
originally, if I were training complete tyros in gunnery, I wouldn't
want a full magazine in their hands. Since it wouldn't see combat,
short magazine capacity wouldn't make any difference.
Stan
----------------------------------------------------------------------
sta...@prolynx.com
Natman wrote:
# #
# #Natman wrote:
# #
Not
# a problem if you're shooting skeet. I also own a regular model 11.
# Haven't seen one of those in military trim, but I wouldn't be
# surprised if there were some.
#
All of the Ordnance-marked M11s that I've seen have been regular-length
magazine models and have had riot-length cylinder choke barrels. What
does your Sportsman have for a barrel and does it have Ordnance
markings anywhere on it? I could see it having a skeet barrel
originally, if I were training complete tyros in gunnery, I wouldn't
want a full magazine in their hands. Since it wouldn't see combat,
short magazine capacity wouldn't make any difference.
Stan
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Natman
#
#Natman wrote:
## #
## #Natman wrote:
## #
## I own a Sportsman in military trim. complete with bomb cartouches and
## "Military Finish" stamped on the side. It still has the short mag.
#Not
## a problem if you're shooting skeet. I also own a regular model 11.
## Haven't seen one of those in military trim, but I wouldn't be
## surprised if there were some.
##
#All of the Ordnance-marked M11s that I've seen have been regular-length
#magazine models and have had riot-length cylinder choke barrels. What
#does your Sportsman have for a barrel and does it have Ordnance
#markings anywhere on it? I could see it having a skeet barrel
#originally, if I were training complete tyros in gunnery, I wouldn't
#want a full magazine in their hands. Since it wouldn't see combat,
#short magazine capacity wouldn't make any difference.
#
#Stan
#
#
It has a 28" CYL barrel. The barrel does not have ord. markings, The
receiver does have "U.S.", a bomb, and "MILITARY FINISH" on it. The
bolt is marked "THE SPORTSMAN".
Christopher Morton
wrote:
#While shotguns were certainly used, I believe the 2 shot magazine of
#the Remingtons would make a pump such as a Winchester 12 or 97 more
#attractive in combat.
Page 317 of Swearengen's "World's Fighting Shotguns" says it's a five
shot.
--
More blood for oil... in my name!
Natman
<cm...@cox.net> wrote:
#On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 03:17:54 +0000 (UTC), nat_...@yahoo.com (Natman)
#wrote:
#
##While shotguns were certainly used, I believe the 2 shot magazine of
##the Remingtons would make a pump such as a Winchester 12 or 97 more
##attractive in combat.
#
#Page 317 of Swearengen's "World's Fighting Shotguns" says it's a five
#shot.
I should have been more specific in my original post. There are two
types of Remington 11s: a 5 shot and a 3 shot. The three shot was
designed for hunting before it was decided that mag plugs were legal,
hence the title "The Sportsman". Some Sportsmans were used by the
military and I have one in that configuration. Since it has a 28"
barrel and a 2 shot mag I would guess it was used for training. So the
post should have read: "I believe the 2 shot magazine of the Sportsman
would make a [a 5 shot Model 11 or a] pump such as a Winchester 12 or
97 more attractive in combat. "
Louis Boyd
# On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 11:54:07 +0000 (UTC), Christopher Morton
# <cm...@cox.net> wrote:
#
# #On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 03:17:54 +0000 (UTC), nat_...@yahoo.com (Natman)
# #wrote:
# #
# ##While shotguns were certainly used, I believe the 2 shot magazine of
# ##attractive in combat.
# #
# #Page 317 of Swearengen's "World's Fighting Shotguns" says it's a five
# I should have been more specific in my original post. There are two
# types of Remington 11s: a 5 shot and a 3 shot. The three shot was
# designed for hunting before it was decided that mag plugs were legal,
# hence the title "The Sportsman". Some Sportsmans were used by the
# military and I have one in that configuration. Since it has a 28"
# barrel and a 2 shot mag I would guess it was used for training. So the
# post should have read: "I believe the 2 shot magazine of the Sportsman
# would make a [a 5 shot Model 11 or a] pump such as a Winchester 12 or
# 97 more attractive in combat. "
Thanks to all who responded to my original post. The magazine on mine
only accepts two 2-3/4" shells, but it's overall length seems plenty for
four. It doesn't have plugs so I'd expect there's one part which is
swapped to make it 3 or 5 shot (2 or 4 in the magazine) I've ordered a
gunsmithing manual so I should be able to figure it out.
The bolt is engraved "MODEL 11" with no word "sportsman" anywhere, nor
any mention of a military finish. It just has normal bluing in good
condition with no rust. It looks little used but certainly not collector
grade. The butt plate is thin hard plastic with just the word Remington.
sta...@prolynx.com
Louis Boyd wrote:
#
# Thanks to all who responded to my original post. The magazine on
mine
# only accepts two 2-3/4" shells, but it's overall length seems plenty
for
# four. It doesn't have plugs so I'd expect there's one part which is
# swapped to make it 3 or 5 shot (2 or 4 in the magazine) I've
ordered a
# gunsmithing manual so I should be able to figure it out.
#
# The bolt is engraved "MODEL 11" with no word "sportsman" anywhere,
nor
# any mention of a military finish. It just has normal bluing in good
# condition with no rust. It looks little used but certainly not
collector
# grade. The butt plate is thin hard plastic with just the word
Remington.
#
#
Take the magazine end cap off and look down in the tube, there's
probably a wooden dowel in there, the "plug". The magazine spring
retainer has a hole in the center, you should be able to shake it out
through that. Usually the magazine tube can do with a good mop-out and
the spring cleaned and oiled if it's like any of the others I've seen.
The retainer is easy to pop out, if you're so inclined.
On any of the old recoil-operated shotguns, I'd do a complete
strip-down and check the condition of the innards. It's amazing what
gets trapped in there over the years. A strip-down takes a pretty good
set of tools, you've got to use screwdrivers that fit. If you're not
comfortable doing that, a gunsmith should be able to check it over for
you. I've bought A5s that looked good from the outside, but had some
serious problems, busted bolt spring tubes, locking blocks, extractors
and other worn parts. They could all be replaced, usually cheaply,
but since then, I won't even consider one unless I can detail strip it
first. Some Browning parts fit M11s, others won't.
Stan