M16 failures in Iraq?
Greg
related failures of the M16 in Iraq. This was started when Jessica Lynch said
her gun was jammed. I am not really surprised that a company of store keepers
are not maintaining their weapon but how wide spread is this problem?
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Sojourner
in Iraq, and it wasn't just the dust. I saw footage of
a firefight under a bridge, and the 50 mm machine
gun mounted atop the Abrams tank kept jamming
after 2 or 3 rounds. Fortunately, the very exposed
GI was facing Iraqi forces that couldn't shoot.
I heard on commentator say that the "sand" in Iraq
isn't sand at all, but a very fine powder, like the
astronauts encountered on the moon. That'd get
in everything....
Hawke
dirt
# related failures of the M16 in Iraq. This was started when Jessica Lynch
said
# her gun was jammed. I am not really surprised that a company of store
keepers
# are not maintaining their weapon but how wide spread is this problem?
Just to add a comment about the lack of maintenance of weapons by national
guard and reserve troops to the above statement, it's apparently the case
that the troops that are not regular army are poorly trained in the use of
their weapons. It doesn't matter whether you're talking about how well they
maintain them or how well they can shoot them. To illustrate, I just saw an
interview on television today with a guy in the reserves that was getting
called up for duty in Iraq, and he was telling the newsman about the
training he had received while in the reserves. He was with a number of
troops and they were in fox holes firing M16s. He said that they had only
shot their M16s once in the entire year, and these were guys that were going
to Iraq! I couldn't help but wonder what good they would do over there.
I don't know what to make of information like this. Here we are spending 400
billion dollars a year to have the best military in the world and this is
the kind of training a large segment of the troops get. I would not want to
be going into combat with soldiers as poorly trained as those guys are. But
also, how can we spend so much and still come up with people that are so
unprepared? It's looking more and more to me like nobody involved in this
fiasco in Iraq has any idea what the hell they are doing. I thought this war
was a bad idea right from the get go, and every day that something else goes
wrong over there just goes to show that I was right.
Hawke
R.M.R.
jammed.
~~~~~~
Here we go again with,I heard this and I heard that about the m-16.To
quote what Jessica Lynch said is a bit comical.
Before the t.v.movie and million dollar book deal she claimed to have a
dose of selective amnesia.
One thing that always amazes me about this favorite topic people love to
hate is practically no one ever posts that actually been involved in any
recent conflicts in the last 20 years.Most complaints come from the
early Vietnam era and some of that is from what people have heard.We
know the problems the ar15 / m-16 had back then and I'll admit there is
still room for improvement and maybe even replacement but It's come
along way since the early days...
Ray,
(Si vis pacem,
para bellum) U.S.A.
Ronald Bloom
the weapons clean, but they probably did work, they were just blaming
the M16 for their inability to complete the mission. NOtice that the
troops who completed their mission do not have the Bronze Star, new cars
or money. Lynch did not say that, it was the coward SGT, who
surrendered who said the M16's jammed.
"Greg" <gfre...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:bp3emd$lqu$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
> ...
massive dirt
> ...
Lynch said
> ...
keepers
> ...
Hoppy
# There is a discussion going on in a political group I watch about massive dirt
# related failures of the M16 in Iraq. This was started when Jessica Lynch said
# her gun was jammed. I am not really surprised that a company of store keepers
# are not maintaining their weapon but how wide spread is this problem?
She said she didn't get off a shot. I don't know how you get one
jammed where it won't even shoot the first round.
Hoppy
John T Haller
or so. Of course, I was a long time shooter and NRA instructor before I
joined the Army. You are not totally wrong. The way that small arms and
basic soldiers skills are ignored in our azrmed forces while fatcat military
contractors sell congressmen on the latest expensive system is a pathetic
joke.
The only thing I would point out is that things aren't that much better in
the active force. Guys in the 82nd and 101st probably do get to shoot
more, but guys in other line units and support MOS's in the active army also
only have to qualify once per year with an M16. That's just "qualify".
Whether they do more is very much a question of whether the unit commander
cares or whether there is money. With budget problems and they way the
training calender is, you would probably be surprised how little the active
soldier actually trains on solider skills every year. In the case of my
unit, we have a lot of former active NCO's and former Marines who do
understand these issues and I'm hopefull they wiill help in this regard.
How did we get this way? 1) on the military side much of our procurement
is controlled by corporations not the milittary and 2) on the civilian side
we are now a nation of spectators and yuppies who sit on their couch eating
bonbons and cheesypuffs and worry more about how the Cowboys are doing this
year than whether their military can fight and win. We also think
everything can be solved by the short easy solution. We're a long way from
a nation of hardy riflemen, in short. So if you're pissed like I am write
your congressman. End rant.
John Haller
#
# Just to add a comment about the lack of maintenance of weapons by national
# guard and reserve troops to the above statement, it's apparently the case
# that the troops that are not regular army are poorly trained in the use of
# their weapons. It doesn't matter whether you're talking about how well
they
# maintain them or how well they can shoot them. To illustrate, I just saw
an
# interview on television today with a guy in the reserves that was getting
# called up for duty in Iraq, and he was telling the newsman about the
# training he had received while in the reserves. He was with a number of
# troops and they were in fox holes firing M16s. He said that they had only
# shot their M16s once in the entire year, and these were guys that were
going
# to Iraq! I couldn't help but wonder what good they would do over there.
#
# I don't know what to make of information like this. Here we are spending
400
# billion dollars a year to have the best military in the world and this is
# the kind of training a large segment of the troops get.
Doug T
#
# # There is a discussion going on in a political group I watch about massive
# dirt
# # related failures of the M16 in Iraq. This was started when Jessica Lynch
# said
# # her gun was jammed. I am not really surprised that a company of store
# keepers
# # are not maintaining their weapon but how wide spread is this problem?
#
Was that the same Pvt. Lynch who was tossed about in the truck injured and never
picked up a rifle?
So many different accounts I have heard about what happened in that incident
that I can't keep track of them.
snip
# He said that they had only
# shot their M16s once in the entire year, and these were guys that were going
# to Iraq! I couldn't help but wonder what good they would do over there.
#
# Hawke
#
Well if I fly a helicopter I don't give too much of a damn about whether the
reservist that is wrenching my copter can shoot or not, just hope he knows how
to make the thing work. Same is true if I'm a tanker, a radio operator and so
on.
This day and age there are a lot more jobs that are a lot more important then
the ground pounder. It's a complex system and all parts need to work right for
it to be most effective.
Doug T
Brian
# gfre...@aol.com (Greg) wrote in message news:<bp3emd$lqu$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>...
# # There is a discussion going on in a political group I watch about massive dirt
# # related failures of the M16 in Iraq. This was started when Jessica Lynch said
# # her gun was jammed. I am not really surprised that a company of store keepers
# # are not maintaining their weapon but how wide spread is this problem?
#
#
# She said she didn't get off a shot. I don't know how you get one
# jammed where it won't even shoot the first round.
#
# Hoppy
Hoppy, you've made a very astute observation. The M-16 is a selective
fire weapon. You have to take it off "safe" for it to fire.
Joseph Oberlander
# # There is a discussion going on in a political group I watch about massive
# dirt
# # related failures of the M16 in Iraq. This was started when Jessica Lynch
# said
# # her gun was jammed. I am not really surprised that a company of store
# keepers
# # are not maintaining their weapon but how wide spread is this problem?
#
#
# Just to add a comment about the lack of maintenance of weapons by national
# guard and reserve troops to the above statement, it's apparently the case
# that the troops that are not regular army are poorly trained in the use of
# their weapons. It doesn't matter whether you're talking about how well they
# maintain them or how well they can shoot them. To illustrate, I just saw an
# interview on television today with a guy in the reserves that was getting
# called up for duty in Iraq, and he was telling the newsman about the
# training he had received while in the reserves. He was with a number of
# troops and they were in fox holes firing M16s. He said that they had only
# shot their M16s once in the entire year, and these were guys that were going
# to Iraq! I couldn't help but wonder what good they would do over there.
It has always struck me as odd that they don't spend a LOT more time at
the range. Afterall, when it comes down to it, they are going to have to
fire their weapons - be it rifles, sidearms, machineguns, tanks, etc.
My cousing is a police officer and he spends about an hour each week of
his own time at the range(hopes to get into a SWAT team in a few years)
and sees it as good time spent, because every shot in a RL situation he
misses is not only more time they can be firing back, but can go where you
don't want.
Once a year for reservists is pathetic. We spend all their time with
tactics and fancy maneuvers and high-tech toys and forget the basics.
George H. Foster
news:bp5u8t$ogv$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu:
> ...
I have been following this thing since it first hit the fan. I was in
Vietnam as a Battery Clerk/Red Cross Clerk/Admin Clerk for 18 months.
Before that I was in Germany in a unit that organized equipment for troops
coming from Fort Carson, Colorado, if the balloon went up in the Fulda Gap.
The problem as I see it was that rear area people - unless they come to the
military with a respect for firearms and treat military weapons as they
would treat those that they own - tend to ignore them. The emphasis is
placed on whatever the unit's main role is. These units do not train
beyond a bureaucratic qualification, have no training to fight as a unit in
defense (including ambushes), have no exposure to heavy crew-served weapons
(I never saw an anti-tank weapon, and my hands-on exposure to machine guns
came from having my predecessor as the battery clerk (he was trained as an
armorer) give me some one on one), and in general think gun fights are not
part of their job.
It looks to me that PVT Lynch's problem was dirty mags, not weapons, though
it would not surprise me if the were dirty barrels and actions. The gun
who shot the 7 mortar crew had to force rounds into the chamber.
If I had been in that unit, I would have got to any length to be ready,
just as I did in Vietnam. Never got into action there, but I babied my
weapons (M-14, M-14 full auto, M-79/M-1911, and M-16). Carried as much
ammo as I could. Keep my weapon clean and protected (it slept in my bed
during the day, to keep the dust and dirt away).
I might get the chance to see - people have contacted me about some
contract work over there. I am taking a box of quart ziplock bags with me
- just in case I can get my hands on an M-16 or M-4. Little leary of an AK
- afraid I might a case of fratracide in the dark.
max
#it would not surprise me if the were dirty barrels and actions. The gun
#who shot the 7 mortar crew had to force rounds into the chamber.
Now, I'm not a military guy, but I have this vision of the ol' sarge
being kind'a like a hard and mean den mother. Shouldn't he be
checking their weapons for readiness and chewing their butts out if
something's not right? One version of the story said that nobody's
gun worked right.
I'd be on top of mine if I were out there, but I like guns anyway...
max
Hawke
# Well, Hawke, I am a National Guard officer who is going to Iraq in
February
# or so. Of course, I was a long time shooter and NRA instructor before I
# joined the Army. You are not totally wrong. The way that small arms and
# basic soldiers skills are ignored in our azrmed forces while fatcat
military
# contractors sell congressmen on the latest expensive system is a pathetic
# joke.
#
# The only thing I would point out is that things aren't that much better in
# the active force. Guys in the 82nd and 101st probably do get to shoot
# more, but guys in other line units and support MOS's in the active army
also
# only have to qualify once per year with an M16. That's just "qualify".
# Whether they do more is very much a question of whether the unit commander
# cares or whether there is money. With budget problems and they way the
# training calender is, you would probably be surprised how little the
active
# soldier actually trains on solider skills every year. In the case of my
# unit, we have a lot of former active NCO's and former Marines who do
# understand these issues and I'm hopefull they wiill help in this regard.
#
# How did we get this way? 1) on the military side much of our procurement
# is controlled by corporations not the milittary and 2) on the civilian
side
# we are now a nation of spectators and yuppies who sit on their couch
eating
# bonbons and cheesypuffs and worry more about how the Cowboys are doing
this
# year than whether their military can fight and win. We also think
# everything can be solved by the short easy solution. We're a long way
from
# a nation of hardy riflemen, in short. So if you're pissed like I am write
# your congressman. End rant.
Thanks for confirming what I have been hearing from numerous sources for a
number of years now. The military has become just another conduit for
funneling money to corporations. Billions of tax dollars are spent every
year while the real necessities for military operations are badly neglected.
When there isn't enough ammunition available for soldiers to be trained to
be proficient with a soldier's basic weapon you have to know that something
is seriously wrong.
I think we all know by now that most of the money the military spends is on
unneeded equipment, whether it be more nuclear aircraft carriers or high
tech fighter jets. Both systems are already obsolete as there is no enemy to
use such weapons against. They made sense to counter the threat of a Soviet
Union but today nothing like that exists. So instead of providing the troops
with all the training and ammunition they need, the night vision goggles,
bullet proof vests and similar necessities for the fighting men they buy
nuclear submarines, carriers, and fighter planes. When the people in charge
throw money away on unnecessary hardware and neglect the health, safety,
medical care, and training of the troops there is no way I'm ever going to
support anything they do, and I don't see how any thoughtful person can.
Hawke
tango
# gfre...@aol.com (Greg) wrote in message
# news:<bp3emd$lqu$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>... # There is a
# discussion going on in a political group I watch about massive
# dirt # related failures of the M16 in Iraq. This was started when
# Jessica Lynch said # her gun was jammed. I am not really surprised
# that a company of store keepers # are not maintaining their weapon
# but how wide spread is this problem?
#
#
# She said she didn't get off a shot. I don't know how you get one
# jammed where it won't even shoot the first round.
#
# Hoppy
Jessica Lynch was involved in a humvee hitting a large military vehicle
and doesn't remember anything until she woke up in a hospital. I
recently saw an interview with the one soldier who did fire his weapon
and killed seven Iraqi's, who said the weapon was almost impossible to
cycle and I guess he must be the coward someone referred to as he was a
Sargeant and was captured. The other soldiers who were captured with
him credited him with saving their lives.
They also interviewed the mother of the blond haired Sargeant who died
firing his weapon and was stabbed, who the military now admits was the
person they overheard the Iraqi's talking about, although they referred
to this person as a woman.
This all volunteer army has been a sham for years and we manage to
overwhelm, fourth rate third world armies, with billions of dollars
worth of technology which is rapidly, along with other things,
bankrupting us all.
AKpredator
"John T Haller" <jha...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:bp5u9e$ohu$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# Well, Hawke, I am a National Guard officer who is going to Iraq in
February
# or so. Of course, I was a long time shooter and NRA instructor before I
# joined the Army. You are not totally wrong. The way that small arms and
# basic soldiers skills are ignored in our azrmed forces while fatcat
military
# contractors sell congressmen on the latest expensive system is a pathetic
# joke.
#
# The only thing I would point out is that things aren't that much better in
# the active force. Guys in the 82nd and 101st probably do get to shoot
# more, but guys in other line units and support MOS's in the active army
also
# only have to qualify once per year with an M16. That's just "qualify".
# Whether they do more is very much a question of whether the unit commander
# cares or whether there is money. With budget problems and they way the
# training calender is, you would probably be surprised how little the
active
# soldier actually trains on solider skills every year. In the case of my
# unit, we have a lot of former active NCO's and former Marines who do
# understand these issues and I'm hopefull they wiill help in this regard.
#
# How did we get this way? 1) on the military side much of our procurement
# is controlled by corporations not the milittary and 2) on the civilian
side
# we are now a nation of spectators and yuppies who sit on their couch
eating
# bonbons and cheesypuffs and worry more about how the Cowboys are doing
this
# year than whether their military can fight and win. We also think
# everything can be solved by the short easy solution. We're a long way
from
# a nation of hardy riflemen, in short. So if you're pissed like I am write
# your congressman. End rant.
# John Haller
#
I agree with you wholeheartedly on the small arms training being totally
ignored. Being active duty Air Force I only have to fire a weapon once every
other year and score 25 hits out of 40 rounds which is pretty strict for Air
Force standards. Scoring is based on your career field, some don't even need
a 50% average. Thats firing at an indoor range, 25 meters at a paper target
with some sort of wax bullet that looks like the tip of a crayola. I've seen
some people qualify that should never be allowed to touch a gun again. Had a
kid in Little Rock shooting at a Black Widow spider 10 feet in front of him
on a steel beam. I never have had a problem with the M-16 jamming when using
lead but they do jam quite often with the wax. I had to shoot at an outdoor
army range one time while it was pouring rain and laying in mud 4 inches
deep. Gun got really dirty but never had a problem with it jamming. Never
had to fire it in a sandy environment but we are usually briefed quite
extensively on care and cleaning prior to entering that type of area. Not
sure how the other services do this but I also worry about whenever being
sent into a combat zone I'm handed a gun out of a case that I've never seen
before. Don't get to fire it to check it out, just hop on the plane and hope
it's good. I'm pretty sure Army and Marines have a gun issued to them and
keep that weapon as long as they need it. The way I understand it we just
can't afford the costs it would take to arm everyone that way who enters a
combat zone. I could rant and rave about this all night but hopefully this
will piss off a few more people enough to write those letters.
Gary
Leslie Swartz
stored separately (leadership failure #1). She also maintains that she kept
her weapon clean according to the company maintenance schedule; clean and
lube once a week (leadership failure #2). While riding in the caravan, the
weapons and magazines were kept in the back deck with cargo (troop mistake
> ...
When the ballon went up, she fumbled for all component parts of the weapon
system, finally got a magazine inserted, dropped the bolt and the gun went
click- the bolt had not seated fully, due to dust/dirt in the chamber
preventing the bullet from fully seating. That's the last thing she
remembers until the hospital.
Steve
Larry Caldwell
# There is a discussion going on in a political group I watch about massive dirt
# related failures of the M16 in Iraq. This was started when Jessica Lynch said
# her gun was jammed. I am not really surprised that a company of store keepers
# are not maintaining their weapon but how wide spread is this problem?
I heard that the failures were lubricant related. The troops deployed
with oil lubricants, which attracted a lot of dust and caused
malfunctions. A solvent bath and a tube of graphite lubricant solved the
problem.
--
http://home.teleport.com/~larryc
Joseph Oberlander
# keep that weapon as long as they need it. The way I understand it we just
# can't afford the costs it would take to arm everyone that way who enters a
# combat zone. I could rant and rave about this all night but hopefully this
# will piss off a few more people enough to write those letters.
# Gary
When soldiers are ordering equipment from L.L. Bean and other sources,
you know something is wrong.
If we spent $5,000 on each soldier - that wouldn't even cost us more
than a couple of fighter planes, yet it would give them the best boots
(mineproof, no less!), a decent flak jecket/vest, proper radios, plenty
of ammunition...
It's not rocket science. Most mountaneering groups are better equipped
than these people who we send into life and death situations - with
commercially available equipment.
Joseph Oberlander
# Her current contention is that the weapons were kept unloaded with magazines
# stored separately (leadership failure #1). She also maintains that she kept
# her weapon clean according to the company maintenance schedule; clean and
# lube once a week (leadership failure #2). While riding in the caravan, the
# weapons and magazines were kept in the back deck with cargo (troop mistake
# > ...
#
# When the ballon went up, she fumbled for all component parts of the weapon
# system, finally got a magazine inserted, dropped the bolt and the gun went
# click- the bolt had not seated fully, due to dust/dirt in the chamber
# preventing the bullet from fully seating. That's the last thing she
# remembers until the hospital.
I know if I was riding in a potential combat area, the thing would be
loaded and ready - it's just common sense. That would have at least
ensured that the first shot would have happened - 10-20 seconds earlier.
"They're firing at us - oh wait for me to put together the machinegun
and mount it on the Humvee..."
"Hey - can you wait a minute for me to assemble my weapon?"
"where's my clip?" shouldn't be their primary concern - their "leaders"
should be demoted if they are sending them in essentially unarmed.
All this talk - what we need to do is start petitioning the WWII and
Korean era vets(retired people), because they vote in large numbers.
We did as well as we did(Korea would have been Vietnam with today's mess)
because we had a whole lot of troops and guns. Nothing fancy - just a
lot weapons and people to use them. Let them know how the money is being
mis-spent on things that don't ensure that our soldiers are safe or
prepared.
tpg comcntr
Greg wrote:
# There is a discussion going on in a political group I watch about massive dirt
# related failures of the M16 in Iraq. This was started when Jessica Lynch said
# her gun was jammed. I am not really surprised that a company of store keepers
# are not maintaining their weapon but how wide spread is this problem?
16 Nov 03
The vast majority of weapon jamming in Iraq is from the deplorable CLP weapons oil
that the Military is stuck with. CLP is a rather heavy oil with a Teflon powder
component. In a firefight, the lighter molecules of the base oil "cook off"
leaving what amounts to a glue like substance behind. This glue junk attracts
dust and dirt like a magnet. There are several other much better weapon oils on
the market (see Plate + at www.sprinco.com) but the bureaucratic idiots who design
tests for weapons oil have no concept of a solid form of lubricant like Plate +.
Have also heard that the manufacturer of CLP is a relative of a very senior US
Senator or Congressman. You figure it out.
In the meantime our guys keep getting killed due to politics and bureaucratic
stupidity.
Freedom Fighter
"God created man, Sam Colt made them all equal"
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Old Dog
news:bp8vkm$3hb$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# This all volunteer army has been a sham for years and we manage to
# overwhelm, fourth rate third world armies, with billions of dollars
# worth of technology which is rapidly, along with other things,
# bankrupting us all.
Volunteer? I think you mean "professional", right? So you are advocating going
back to a draft?
-Old Dog
Joseph M. White
However, when the tank goes bust or the helicopter pad is overrun by
enemy combatants, EVERYBODY is a grunt. Those who can't fight, die.
The Marines understand this and train everybody to be a combatant
soldier, BEFORE they receive any specialty training. Every branch of
the armed forces should be doing the same thing. With the new warfare,
comes new challenges, and one of those challenges is facing a cowardly
enemy who will use any ruse to kill our forces. Nobody is immune from
attack. Nobody is to be trusted as a safe ally until they have been
completely searched. If you are a storekeeper, you might well face a
truck bomber running a barricade to blow you and your mates up. What
are you going to do, call the cops? Every service person should be
thoroughly trained and ready to use deadly force when needed, not rely
on the "real Army" to do the job. The other thing that must be done,
immediately, is to remove women from frontline combat units. This was
politically correct idiocy and needs to be stopped, now.
joe
MatQuig
<josephob...@earthlink.net> writes:
#It's not rocket science. Most mountaneering groups are better equipped
#than these people who we send into life and death situations - with
#commercially available equipment.
If I were a soldier deploying in this time and age, I would seriously CONSIDER
buying my own protective and tech gear, should the Army not be able to supply
it (for whatever reason). GPS, BP vest, sidearm (with permission or without, I
don't care, it's MY butt on the line), extra ammo, latest in em. first
aid/medications, binoculars, riflescope, you name it. I was a cop for 20
years, and my department didn't buy HALF of the stuff that I used.. to be at
the cutting edge of the game. I bought sidearms, belt gear, ammo, rifles,
vest, etc, anything that gave me an edge on the street, to include extra
training in street survival and firearms readiness. If you are a PROFESSIONAL
soldier, you will not hesitate to equip yourself. Remember when guys in WWII
bought their own Randall knives because they were better than the GI bayonets
for many tasks? It (self-equiment) didn't start with the current crop of
soldiers, and certainly won't end there. Had anyone in Jessica's bunch had a
private owned GPS, they may not have made a wrong turn.................MatQuig
Leslie Swartz
- Combat
- Combat Supprt
- Support
I believe PFC Lynch's unit was classified as "Combat Support;" therefore,
having loaded weapons handy would be considered 1) not necessary and 2) high
risk.
Steve Swartz
Leslie Swartz
(and a whole lot of other alternatives) I have never seen this "cooked off
glue" you are referring to.
I have seen a lot of my colleagues read the TM and interpret "thin film" as
"until it drips" though. But even their weapons never developed any "cooked
off residue."
Steve
Old Dog
news:bpaef8$d77$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
#
# If we spent $5,000 on each soldier - that wouldn't even cost us more
# than a couple of fighter planes, yet it would give them the best boots
# (mineproof, no less!), a decent flak jecket/vest, proper radios, plenty
# of ammunition...
"Mineproof" boots? How many inches of titanium does that take? So, it doesn't
hurt the boot, just takes the guy's leg off?
-Old Dog
Mike
# There were all kinds of embarrassing firearm failures
# in Iraq, and it wasn't just the dust. I saw footage of
# a firefight under a bridge, and the 50 mm machine
# gun mounted atop the Abrams tank kept jamming
# after 2 or 3 rounds.
I hope you mean .50 cal. machine gun. 50mm, or a little less than 2
feet in diameter, is a little much for an automatic weapon, even on a
tank :-)
Mike.
Juggler
# gfre...@aol.com (Greg) writes:
#
# # There is a discussion going on in a political group I watch about massive dirt
# # related failures of the M16 in Iraq. This was started when Jessica Lynch said
# # her gun was jammed. I am not really surprised that a company of store keepers
# # are not maintaining their weapon but how wide spread is this problem?
#
# I heard that the failures were lubricant related. The troops deployed
# with oil lubricants, which attracted a lot of dust and caused
# malfunctions. A solvent bath and a tube of graphite lubricant solved the
# problem.
Let me tell you, a bath and a tube of lubricant solve a lot of *my* problems too...
SPP1
[snip]
#Have also heard that the manufacturer of CLP is a relative of a very senior
#US
#Senator or Congressman. You figure it out.
#[snip]
#Freedom Fighter
Please share your evidence of this with us here. Or is this something you heard
from a couple of blowhards in some grimy gunstore?
Dale Alexander
large round.
Dale Alexander
"Mike" <owe...@ameritech.net> wrote in message
news:bpbqb9$no1$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
> ...
news:<bp42fe$1cb$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>...
> ...
Lee DeRaud
wrote:
#"Sojourner" <coalc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<bp42fe$1cb$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>...
## There were all kinds of embarrassing firearm failures
## in Iraq, and it wasn't just the dust. I saw footage of
## a firefight under a bridge, and the 50 mm machine
## gun mounted atop the Abrams tank kept jamming
## after 2 or 3 rounds.
#
#
#I hope you mean .50 cal. machine gun. 50mm, or a little less than 2
#feet in diameter, is a little much for an automatic weapon, even on a
#tank :-)
At the risk of being the tenth or eleventh person to point this out,
you slipped a decimal point, dude: 50mm is about 2.5 *inches*.
Lee
John T Haller
"MatQuig" <mat...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:bpbq96$nlb$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
> If I were a soldier deploying in this time and age, I would seriously
CONSIDER
supply
# it (for whatever reason). GPS, BP vest, sidearm (
Most officers at least in the Army buy their own GPS. By the way, even in
the Army's latest silly "Army of One" commercial the SF guy on the mountain
is using a Magellen GPS. THIs really says something, the issued GPS isn't
even good enopugh for the commercial. :-)
BTMO
"Mike" <> wrote
# I hope you mean .50 cal. machine gun. 50mm, or a little less than 2
# feet in diameter, is a little much for an automatic weapon, even on a
# tank :-)
Don't want to be a pedant, but 50mm is a little less than 2 inches...
500 mm is a little less than 2 feet.
Cheers,
Brenton (who can do metric conversions of this nature in his head)
;-)
Joseph Oberlander
# The ROEs are very different between units designated as
#
# - Combat
# - Combat Supprt
# - Support
#
# I believe PFC Lynch's unit was classified as "Combat Support;" therefore,
# having loaded weapons handy would be considered 1) not necessary and 2) high
# risk.
Moron policy - as it's entirely likely that "support" comes close to the
front lines in its job duties. Afterall, there has to be a handoff of
supplies or overlapping areas - and if the enemy breaches the front
line or is lobbing artillery at you...
We have too much hubris. The Marines know better - that it can hit the fan
at anytime. They learned this all to well in several sieges in Vietnam.
Joseph Oberlander
# "Joseph Oberlander" <josephob...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
# news:bpaef8$d77$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# #
# # If we spent $5,000 on each soldier - that wouldn't even cost us more
# # than a couple of fighter planes, yet it would give them the best boots
# # (mineproof, no less!), a decent flak jecket/vest, proper radios, plenty
# # of ammunition...
#
# "Mineproof" boots? How many inches of titanium does that take? So, it doesn't
# hurt the boot, just takes the guy's leg off?
Saw it on a cable tv show - really cool stuff - it had layers of ablative
material and a kevlar/steel full insole. It made the difference between
blowing up the dummy's leg(more like both) and throwing them a dozen feet all
beaten up(surviveable).
Really high-tech stuff, but amazing to see that it really works.
Gunner
wrote:
> ...
Didnt you mean a little less than 2 inches?
<G>
Gunner
> ...
"The British attitude is to treat society like a game preserve where a
certain percentage of the 'antelope' are expected to be eaten by the
"lions".
Christopher Morton
Larry Caldwell
# When soldiers are ordering equipment from L.L. Bean and other sources,
# you know something is wrong.
Yeah, it's called war. I know guys who were equipping themselves in Viet
Nam, and I have heard stories about doughboys doing the same in WWI.
--
http://home.teleport.com/~larryc
Doug T
#
# However, when the tank goes bust or the helicopter pad is overrun by
# enemy combatants, EVERYBODY is a grunt. Those who can't fight, die.
# The Marines understand this and train everybody to be a combatant
# soldier, BEFORE they receive any specialty training. Every branch of
# the armed forces should be doing the same thing.
snip
# joe
I believe that would be called boot camp. I believe they still have that and
regular (but infrequent) qualifications test to make sure you still remember
which end the bullet comes out.
I doubt Ft. Knox is likely to be overrun anytime soon. And if the pad back at
HQ is being overrun a whole lot of people have screwed up.
I'm fairly sure that in a more conventional situation that your combat ability
would be more or less proportional to your nearness to hostilities.
Let's see you've got a two year basic enlistment. First quarter is just very
basic military skills, now you want to add a second quarter of advance training,
two more quarters of MOS training, but that will have to be stretched out
another 6 weeks to have combat training reinforced during MOS training. Add in
four weeks of leave time, well we're over half way through our basic enlistment
and we haven't deployed yet. Two more weeks of leave before deployment, now we
have nine months left and we just arrived at our tour of duty and need two more
weeks of refresher combat training and then a month or several to really learn
the equipment and procedures that are on the ground at our deployment. Time to
re-up or are you going home and cash in on our investment in your training.
Of course more skilled MOS requires a longer enlistment but also eats up more of
that time just to get you ready to go to a duty station. And if the shooting
starts you don't get asked if you want to extend your enlistment.
But truth is your not going to be an expert combat soldier until you've been
shot at and shot back several times. And if your in a support MOS that isn't
very likely and you have plenty to learn and do in your own job. If shooting
breaks out even the combat trainee is going to have to learn fast or get hurt
and that's why our leaders need to think carefully before they start playing
General and have War games where real opponents shoot real bullets back. Too bad
they didn't this time.
Doug T
Old Dog
# Old Dog wrote:
#
# # "Mineproof" boots? How many inches of titanium does that take? So, it
doesn't
#
# Saw it on a cable tv show - really cool stuff - it had layers of ablative
# material and a kevlar/steel full insole. It made the difference between
# blowing up the dummy's leg(more like both) and throwing them a dozen feet all
# beaten up(surviveable).
#
# Really high-tech stuff, but amazing to see that it really works.
I can see it resisting projectiles, but close contact with a high explosive
charge? It's going to turn flesh and bone to jelly, unless it's *really* small -
and then the enemy just switches to something else And what happens above the
boot tops? Sorry, I know it sounds good, but I'm just not there yet. "Really
works" on a dummy isn't quite the same as "really works" on flesh and bone.
Still, I'll give you this - if I had to go wandering around in a mine field, I'd
rather have "works in theory" than nothing...unless it made me careless.
-Old Dog (aka Old Cynic)
P.S.: You do know that they produce TV shows for the money, right?
J. Del Col
# Hawke wrote:
# #
# # # related failures of the M16 in Iraq. This was started when Jessica Lynch
# # said
# # # her gun was jammed. I am not really surprised that a company of store
# # keepers
# # # are not maintaining their weapon but how wide spread is this problem?
# #
# Was that the same Pvt. Lynch who was tossed about in the truck injured and never
# picked up a rifle?
Ms Lynch says that she tried to use her weapon but it jammed. Another
soldier tried to clear the jam but couldn't.
The unit's .50 cal machinegun jammed too.
J. Del Col
jerryc
everything, we have BEST military forces in the world today. And war,
like the plague, should be avoided at all cost. However, freedom has
it's price. God bless all our troops who serve in the military and
especially those and their families who have given the ultimate
sacrifice for their country. But for those of us at home we should
support our President, our military leaders, and most of all, the men
and women in service. Criticism and infighting back home does't help
the cause and some will argue it can cost MORE American lives( Former
Sec of Defense McNamara.) Granted, arguing in this newsgroup does't
amount to a hill of beans but, we should be contacting our elected
officials and the news media (contacting their advertisers makes a
better impression sometimes) who are. Tell them to stop bashing our
adminstration and get behind the war effort for the safety and quick
return of our troops. Once everyone is safe, that is the time for
debate. And, come election time, you can get even with your elected
officials too. But because this is America, YOU can say anything you
want, when you want, ironically our troops are the muscle to ensure
this right we enjoy in our Constitution.
"Hawke" <desm...@c-zone.net> wrote in message news:<bp8vk0$3h7$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>...
> ...
Jon Blake
of an instance in the Korean War, Chosin area. Marine engineers were
constructing an airfield in frigid weather when the Chinese attacked the
permeter. The engineers grabbed their rifles and defended the perimeter
and then returned to their vital task of construction.
Every Marine a rifleman. My dad was a career Marine, a mustang working his
way up to major before retiring. Throughout his 30 years he maintained his
expert rating, both pistol and rifle, and kept up his practice, even
though he was in Jag as an attorney. His time with the 1st division in
Korea convinced him that you can be in harm's way at anytime.
Semper Fi
- Jon
Joe Willmann
How many of you wrote your congressmen about cutting the defense budget
over the previous 8 years? When you don't need the military it is fine
to cut their funding - read that give them lower quality/less equipment.
But when the baloon goes up start griping that they don't have
everything that they need.
Well let me tell you, people die in wars. A lot of the death could be
avoided but the cost would be so high that we could not afford to have
the society we live in. I am sorry but those are the facts of life.
Lets make hellocopters so they can't be shot down and RPG will bounce
off. The cost goes up to 500 million a peace and army gets 5. How much
good would that do. How about we give every rear echelon soldier the
best/most expensive safety gear? Then the cost of the military goes up
so much we can't aford the number of troups we need to do the job. So
then the money spent is wasted.
There are a lot of families that have lost members in war. It will
continue to happen no matter how much we spend. It is all about rudcing
the risks far enough to make it worth while.
People are complaining that in Irac with the Lynch ambush the soldiers
were not prepared enough or equiped enough or something...... Well
sorry, thats life and war.
Joseph Oberlander <josephob...@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:bpaef8$d77$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu:
# When soldiers are ordering equipment from L.L. Bean and other sources,
# you know something is wrong.
#
# If we spent $5,000 on each soldier - that wouldn't even cost us more
# than a couple of fighter planes, yet it would give them the best boots
# (mineproof, no less!), a decent flak jecket/vest, proper radios,
# plenty of ammunition...
#
# It's not rocket science. Most mountaneering groups are better
# equipped than these people who we send into life and death situations
# - with commercially available equipment.
Joe Willmann
Joseph Oberlander <josephob...@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:bpd0bj$342$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu:
#
# Saw it on a cable tv show - really cool stuff - it had layers of
# ablative material and a kevlar/steel full insole. It made the
# difference between blowing up the dummy's leg(more like both) and
# throwing them a dozen feet all beaten up(surviveable).
#
# Really high-tech stuff, but amazing to see that it really works.
Peter McMullen
Joseph Oberlander wrote:
# Old Dog wrote:
#
# # "Joseph Oberlander" <josephob...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
# # news:bpaef8$d77$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# # #
# # # If we spent $5,000 on each soldier - that wouldn't even cost us more
# # # than a couple of fighter planes, yet it would give them the best boots
# # # (mineproof, no less!), a decent flak jecket/vest, proper radios, plenty
# # # of ammunition...
# #
# # "Mineproof" boots? How many inches of titanium does that take? So, it doesn't
# # hurt the boot, just takes the guy's leg off?
#
# Saw it on a cable tv show - really cool stuff - it had layers of ablative
# material and a kevlar/steel full insole. It made the difference between
# blowing up the dummy's leg(more like both) and throwing them a dozen feet all
# beaten up(surviveable).
#
# Really high-tech stuff, but amazing to see that it really works.
#
Now all ya need is a kevlar jockstrap for the bouncing
betty's...
--
"At this time, Google policy does not permit the
advertisement of websites that contain 'firearms and
ammunition'."
BOYCOTT GOOGLE
;-)
Ken Marsh
John T Haller <jha...@pobox.com> wrote:
#Most officers at least in the Army buy their own GPS. By the way, even in
#the Army's latest silly "Army of One" commercial the SF guy on the mountain
#is using a Magellen GPS. THIs really says something, the issued GPS isn't
#even good enopugh for the commercial. :-)
Drop a PLGR and a Magellen down a cliff, blow up a hand grenade nearby,
then see which one still works...
Yes, the commercial units are easier to use, smaller and more photogenic.
Yes, they are being used in Iraq, but there are certain functions and
roles the commercial ones can't do, like interface directly with Army
radios.
Anyway, the PLGR is getting near the end of its lifecycle, and we'll
probably see a replacement in a few years. In the meantime, the US Army
is taking the correct approach, supplementing PLGR's with quickly
acquired commercial GPS receivers where convenient.
Ken.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mail: kmarsh at charm dot net | Save the environment! Buy US-made
WWW: http://www.charm.net/~kmarsh | heavy industries products.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rodman S. Regier
<josephob...@earthlink.net> wrote:
#Old Dog wrote:
#
## "Joseph Oberlander" <josephob...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
## news:bpaef8$d77$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
## #
## # If we spent $5,000 on each soldier - that wouldn't even cost us more
## # than a couple of fighter planes, yet it would give them the best boots
## # (mineproof, no less!), a decent flak jecket/vest, proper radios, plenty
## # of ammunition...
##
## "Mineproof" boots? How many inches of titanium does that take? So, it doesn't
## hurt the boot, just takes the guy's leg off?
#
#Saw it on a cable tv show - really cool stuff - it had layers of ablative
#material and a kevlar/steel full insole. It made the difference between
#blowing up the dummy's leg(more like both) and throwing them a dozen feet all
#beaten up(surviveable).
#
#Really high-tech stuff, but amazing to see that it really works.
Who sells/mfgr it, and how much does it cost?
Ed C
Seems to me if you were designated "Combat Support" that would imply the
need to support front line troops and ergo the need to be competent in the
use of combat skills like being ready to kill somebody that's trying to kill
you.
Bottom line is if this is the best in "Combat Ready" that we can put into a
battle situation we are in deep doo doo.
Ed C
"Leslie Swartz" <leslie...@erinet.com> wrote in message
news:bpbq9s$nm3$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
> ...
high
> ...
Jens Goerke
# I believe PFC Lynch's unit was classified as "Combat Support;" therefore,
# having loaded weapons handy would be considered 1) not necessary and
# 2) high risk.
"High risk" as in "can't be trusted with loaded weapons"?
During my Army days we got trained in all hand-held weapons during
basic training, so that everyone could take over for everyone else
in an emergency. After basic training there were still regular days
on the range for technical/supply/support personnel as well, just
not as often as in the combat units.
Jens, flabberghasted
--
You can't out-sarcasm reality.
Joseph Oberlander
# josephob...@earthlink.net (Joseph Oberlander) writes:
#
# # When soldiers are ordering equipment from L.L. Bean and other sources,
# # you know something is wrong.
#
# Yeah, it's called war. I know guys who were equipping themselves in Viet
# Nam, and I have heard stories about doughboys doing the same in WWI.
#
It's disgraceful, though, with HOW many billions in spending?
Allocating just one billion to better equipment and weapons would
result in half the causalties and messups.
Joseph Oberlander
# "Joseph Oberlander" <josephob...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
# news:bpd0bj$342$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# # Old Dog wrote:
# #
# # # "Mineproof" boots? How many inches of titanium does that take? So, it
# doesn't
# # # hurt the boot, just takes the guy's leg off?
# #
# # Saw it on a cable tv show - really cool stuff - it had layers of ablative
# # material and a kevlar/steel full insole. It made the difference between
# # blowing up the dummy's leg(more like both) and throwing them a dozen feet all
# # beaten up(surviveable).
# #
# # Really high-tech stuff, but amazing to see that it really works.
#
# I can see it resisting projectiles, but close contact with a high explosive
# charge? It's going to turn flesh and bone to jelly, unless it's *really* small -
# and then the enemy just switches to something else And what happens above the
# boot tops? Sorry, I know it sounds good, but I'm just not there yet. "Really
# works" on a dummy isn't quite the same as "really works" on flesh and bone.
#
# Still, I'll give you this - if I had to go wandering around in a mine field, I'd
# rather have "works in theory" than nothing...unless it made me careless.
I was shocked as well - it is made to be ablative, like tank armor and dispersse
the shockwave outwards. The entire bottom 2 inches of the boot's sole
disintegrates and it looks like a dog chewed it up, but your leg survives
somewhat(which is better than a fine mist)
Joseph Oberlander
# Now you have hit on one of my pet peve's. Second guessing everything.
# How many of you wrote your congressmen about cutting the defense budget
# over the previous 8 years? When you don't need the military it is fine
# to cut their funding - read that give them lower quality/less equipment.
# But when the baloon goes up start griping that they don't have
# everything that they need.
Military spending should have priorities.
We spend way too much on electronics and planes and other junk when
the reality is - you can't hold a polition unless you get people
on the ground to do so. The Marines know this. You can pound
them for a year and unless you walk over and take it from them in
person, it's still theirs.
One stealth fighter - you could properly outfit tens of thousands
of soldiers in Iraq.
Joseph Oberlander
# Actually it results usually in multiple compound fractures of the leg.
#
# Joseph Oberlander <josephob...@earthlink.net> wrote in
# news:bpd0bj$342$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu:
#
# #
# # Saw it on a cable tv show - really cool stuff - it had layers of
# # ablative material and a kevlar/steel full insole. It made the
# # difference between blowing up the dummy's leg(more like both) and
# # throwing them a dozen feet all beaten up(surviveable).
# #
# # Really high-tech stuff, but amazing to see that it really works.
As I said - surviveable. Better than not there.
Joseph Oberlander
# On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 11:38:27 +0000 (UTC), Joseph Oberlander
# <josephob...@earthlink.net> wrote:
#
# #Old Dog wrote:
# #
# ## "Joseph Oberlander" <josephob...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
# ## news:bpaef8$d77$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# ## #
# ## # If we spent $5,000 on each soldier - that wouldn't even cost us more
# ## # than a couple of fighter planes, yet it would give them the best boots
# ## # (mineproof, no less!), a decent flak jecket/vest, proper radios, plenty
# ## # of ammunition...
# ##
# ## "Mineproof" boots? How many inches of titanium does that take? So, it doesn't
# ## hurt the boot, just takes the guy's leg off?
# #
# #Saw it on a cable tv show - really cool stuff - it had layers of ablative
# #material and a kevlar/steel full insole. It made the difference between
# #blowing up the dummy's leg(more like both) and throwing them a dozen feet all
# #beaten up(surviveable).
# #
# #Really high-tech stuff, but amazing to see that it really works.
#
# Who sells/mfgr it, and how much does it cost?
google search:
"mine reesistant boot"
Rigger
<josephob...@earthlink.net> wrote:
# Saw it on a cable tv show - really cool stuff - it had layers of
# ablative material and a kevlar/steel full insole. It made the
# difference between blowing up the dummy's leg (more like both)
# and throwing them a dozen feet all beaten up (surviveable).
Unless they land on another mine.
(Sorry; couldn't resist.)
--
Dave Vick
NRA, MCRGO, MRPA
Tank: "Okay; whaddya need... Besides a miracle?"
Neo: "Guns... Lots of guns."
Natural Born Cereal Killer
### "Mineproof" boots? How many inches of titanium does that take? So, it doesn't
##Saw it on a cable tv show - really cool stuff - it had layers of ablative
##material and a kevlar/steel full insole. It made the difference between
##blowing up the dummy's leg(more like both) and throwing them a dozen feet all
##beaten up(surviveable).
#
#Who sells/mfgr it, and how much does it cost?
Hmmm... The ancient Greek Hoplite had bronze greeves, leather
boots, and bronze or padded cloth armor for the torso along with
bronze armor for the arms and a bronze helmet. Armor went out of
style as weapons were easily upgraded to penetrate it at range.
That makes me wonder, how much armor can you put on your feet
and compare that to how little effort it would take to lighten the
trigger on an anti-tank mine to defeat it?
At some point, the armor will stand up to the explosion but
your legs will pulp under the 15G's of explosion going off underneath
you, and I'm betting the mine is cheaper and more reliable than the
armor.
--
* Dan Sorenson DoD #1066 ASSHOLE #35 BOTY 1997 vik...@svtv.com *
* Vikings? There ain't no vikings here. Just us honest farmers. *
* The town was burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need *
* those sheep anyway. That's our story and we're sticking to it. *
Ari Johnson
# Don't want to be a pedant, but 50mm is a little less than 2 inches...
I don't either, but you pronounced pedant wrong... ;-D
Joseph M. White
(jerryc) wrote:
> ...
Whoa, back up hoss. The muscle that guarantees my right to free speech
is my ownership of several guns that I am qualified to use in defence
of said rights. THAT muscle is what pisses off the gun grabbers more
than anything else. THAT muscle is what terrifies those pols who are
intent on arrogating power to themselves at my expense. The fact that
I served time in the military makes me a threat to them, primarily
because my dedication to my country is not an issue that I must
re-examine each time something comes up.
This is not a disagreement about the resolve, dedication,
training or fitness of our troops. I, also, believe that we have the
finest in the world. Now if we could just keep the jackals off their
backsides, we could accomplish our mission in Iraq and bring them
home. When I hear daschle or kennedy criticize the troops, I want to
puke. Who are these two spoiled racist, elitist spalpeen to speak ill
of brave men and women? If we wanted to solve the crisis in Iraq,
mayhap we could send kennedy over there as a cab driver to carry fares
over the Tigres river in his Oldsmobile. That would decimate the
population in a hurry.
My post on combat training was drawn on my own (40 year old)
information. Indeed, bootcamp was a fine preparation for my service,
however, my basic enlistment was 4 years with 2 years reserve, not 2
years. Skills enhancement training was an ongoing process, not a show
stopper. From the stories I hear from my nephew (now in Iraq) the
reports of "stress cards" in boot camp was necessary because the
training was too intense for female recruits. So, it is logical then,
that, women are suitable for combat roles because,,,,,,,,,,,,,????
Weapons handling is an aquired skill and one that used to be learned
by most every boy during childhood. Most girls didn't formally learn
these arts as they were regarded as the gentler half, the civilizers
of men. Place women in combat and the rules must change, because the
psychology of man can't change that fast. Men will still act to
protect the women and will still make allowances for their lesser
upper body strength, etc. Even the Israelis no longer have women in
combat roles. That is not to say that women aren't competent,
individually, to defend themselves or commit mayhem, just that they
are not as good at it as men for sustained periods in harsh
conditions.
joe
These are my own opinions, nobody else wants them.
h...@c-zone.net> wrote in message
news:<bp8vk0$3h7$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>...
> ...
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jim Yanik
news:bpfprs$mpa$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu:
And it does not address the "pop-up"type of anti-personnel mines in use
today.The ones where the initial charge propels the AP mine up to about
groin level before it explodes.
Besides,the shock from having a AP mine go off under your foot would
shatter your leg,perhaps drive it into your pelvis,depending on how
powerful the charge was.And the fragments would still go into your crotch
and other leg.
--
Jim Yanik,NRA member
jyanik-at-kua.net
Cliff Spence
train their soldiers (all of them) to do essentially the same thing to
a automatic rifle that a personal defense instructor trains his
student to do with a jammed semi-automatic pistol? If it's jammed,
CLEAR THE JAM, BUT QUICK!
It wouldn't surprise me if the forward assist didn't work with the
sand/powder, but if it were so badly jammed that it couldn't be
cleared, that clearly indicates to me a badly neglected weapon no
matter HOW intense or fine the sand is - something I would have to
blame her unit commander on.
We were inspected in some way almost every single day. Some days in
very great detail.
Cliff Spence
defend themselves.
Cliff Spence
un-American, but:
Does anyone think there's anything wrong with calling Jessica Lynch a
hero for failing to complete her mission and being captured without
firing a shot? Being unprepared for combat in a forward area?
That's not to say she wasn't courageous to psych herself through the
ordeal, which many people I'm sure would not have survived.
But hero? It seems to me that the guys that rescued her and spent
hours digging up her dead comrades behind enemy lines were the true
heroes of this story. They KNEW what they were going directly into
harm's way (without making a wrong turn) and they went anyway.
I understand that she couldn't reveal their names, but from what she
said and how she said it, I got the distinct impression that she never
asked. Even long enough after the fact that she was fully debriefed,
ambulatory, her book in print, and ready for the ABC interview with
Diane Sawyer.
tpg comcntr
Leslie Swartz wrote:
# Hmmm . . . in over 20 years of cleaning and firing various weapons with CLP
# (and a whole lot of other alternatives) I have never seen this "cooked off
# glue" you are referring to.
#
# I have seen a lot of my colleagues read the TM and interpret "thin film" as
# "until it drips" though. But even their weapons never developed any "cooked
# off residue."
#
# Steve
#
Try getting some specs on Teflon from DuPont. CLP is a heavy base oil with
Teflon powder added. The powder migrates around and "clumps" up with
regularity. This combined with fine dust or sand guarantees a jam in short
order.
Freedom Fighter
"God Created Man, Sam Colt made them all equal"
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Leslie Swartz
Steve
Tod Glenn
Joseph Oberlander <josephob...@earthlink.net> wrote:
# Military spending should have priorities.
#
# We spend way too much on electronics and planes and other junk when
# the reality is - you can't hold a polition unless you get people
# on the ground to do so. The Marines know this. You can pound
# them for a year and unless you walk over and take it from them in
# person, it's still theirs.
#
# One stealth fighter - you could properly outfit tens of thousands
# of soldiers in Iraq.
The problem is that the western countries no longer find casualties
acceptable, which means that investing money in electronics is the smart
thing to do. After all, our relatively bloodless victories in the gulf
were the result of superior technolgy, not tougher infantry (sorry).
Too many body bags and the American public, flogged by the media, lose
their will to fight. But no one care about a RPV shot down.
--
----
Tod Glenn
mailto:webm...@cordite.com
http://www.cordite.com
Chris Morton
#The problem is that the western countries no longer find casualties
#acceptable, which means that investing money in electronics is the smart
#thing to do. After all, our relatively bloodless victories in the gulf
#were the result of superior technolgy, not tougher infantry (sorry).
SMARTER tough infantry usually beats TOUGHER infantry.
I can't think of anything or anyone tougher than an Imperial Japanese Marine.
They weren't too bright though, and could be induced to charge machineguns and
semi-automatic shotguns with bayonets.
--
Gun control, the theory that 110lb. women should have to fistfight with 210lb.
rapists.
Tod Glenn
Chris Morton <cmo...@newsguy.com> wrote:
# In article <bqa2cr$5an$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>, Tod Glenn says...
#
# #The problem is that the western countries no longer find casualties
# #acceptable, which means that investing money in electronics is the smart
# #thing to do. After all, our relatively bloodless victories in the gulf
# #were the result of superior technolgy, not tougher infantry (sorry).
#
# SMARTER tough infantry usually beats TOUGHER infantry.
#
# I can't think of anything or anyone tougher than an Imperial Japanese Marine.
# They weren't too bright though, and could be induced to charge machineguns and
# semi-automatic shotguns with bayonets.
And were cut down like grass.
The toughest infantry in the world is no match for smart bombs and
accurate artillery.
--
----
Tod Glenn
mailto:webm...@cordite.com
http://www.cordite.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
Joseph M. White
<webm...@cordite.com> wrote:
#In article <bpfpq6$mo2$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>,
# Joseph Oberlander <josephob...@earthlink.net> wrote:
## Military spending should have priorities.
##
## We spend way too much on electronics and planes and other junk when
## the reality is - you can't hold a polition unless you get people
## on the ground to do so. The Marines know this. You can pound
## them for a year and unless you walk over and take it from them in
## person, it's still theirs.
##
## One stealth fighter - you could properly outfit tens of thousands
## of soldiers in Iraq.
#
#
#The problem is that the western countries no longer find casualties
#acceptable, which means that investing money in electronics is the smart
#thing to do. After all, our relatively bloodless victories in the gulf
#were the result of superior technolgy, not tougher infantry (sorry).
#
#Too many body bags and the American public, flogged by the media, lose
#their will to fight. But no one care about a RPV shot down.
I think that the force deployed in Iraq, right now, is probably the
toughest, smartest force ever developed by any country. Their major
problem is that, in part, they are controlled by officers who are
there punching a time card. They see every duty assignment as a
stepping stone in THEIR career, and any enlisted problems are a fly in
their gravy. Too many of the top generals and such are too politically
minded to be effective leaders. Norman Schwarzkoff (sp?) was a leader
par excellence as was General Franks. Unfortunately, they are a rare
breed. Most of the line officers do not measure up to their enlisted
commands in honesty, integrity and courage, the three areas that are
most visible to their enlisted men. We need to excercise more control
of these officers than we do at present. Nothing destroys a units's
morale faster than a co that looks out for himself first, at the
expense of his men. (The Marines are excused from this examplary
excercise as a whole) As an example of my point, all of the service's
academies, minus the Marines, have had, or have ongoing investigations
for cadet rape, cheating, stealing and numerous other offenses. How
then can those officers claim moral authority over the enlisted
personnel? One of an officer's prime duties is to be exemplar to his
command, to lead, not direct.
joe
----------------------------------------------------------
Shoot the best, forget the rest! Win your choice of Fulton
Armory prize packages in the 'Classic Military Gas Guns of
the 20th Century' rifle raffle held by Marylanders for the
Preservation of Firearm Ownership. Get all the details at
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GPT
...
"I think that the force deployed in Iraq, right now, is probably the
toughest, smartest force ever developed by any country."
- to which I comment - Are you talking about SOCCOM? Otherwise, if
you're speaking 'bout all the troops on average (cooks and clerks to
Captains and Chaplins) I'd spot them some points on smarts, but
maintain the Imperial Japaneese Army, General Lee's troops or North
Korea's troops were/are SERIOUSLY "tougher".
Then the scribe goes on and on about how poor our officers are to
include ... "Most of the line officers do not measure up to their
enlisted
commands in honesty, integrity and courage, the three areas that are
most visible to their enlisted men." (to which he adds 'cept the
Marines of course.)
Seems to me (and I see these folks daily) the O's are from the same
society as the enlisted troops, just a little older. I see no
qualitiative difference in the fibre or mettle, just one has degree,
the other joined like as not to pay for one.
Both are victims of a society which found it much easier to drop
measuring up to any strict core values and worship "diversity",
"tolerance", and (faux) "freedom".
FWIW, I'd outsource everythin' or bring back a draft.
Joseph M. White
wrote:
> ...
I agree with your assessment of the toughness of Lee's troops and
other historic forces. I was refering to the combined tough and smart
line. As to officer morals, my argument is with the fact that the
enlisted troops are being led by (in some cases) morally bankrupt men,
and it does make a difference. If you know an officer is honest and
courageous, you will follow him to hell, kick in the gates, and have a
reasonable expectation of coming home afterwards. If you know that he
(or she) got his commission as part of a quota thing, or by cheating,
how far would you be willing to follow him? Your butt is on the line,
is this one of those areas where he cheated and does he really know
what he's talking about? Do you really want to be commanded by some
sob who's family kept him from being kicked out of the academy for
forcing a female cadet's head into a urinal and flushing it? Or one
who raped a female cadet? Or an entire class that cheated on exams? In
this instance, we are not worried about societies failings, we are
talking about our life on the line and the fitness to command of those
in charge.
During the Revolutionary War, the British were plagued by a
corrupt officer corps and the troop morale suffered for it. The
Hessians, on the other hand, treated military service much as the
Spartans had, as an avocation, a calling, a life of honor. They were
much harder to fight and to conquer, but when conquered, much quicker
to accept their fait. One of our colonels in Iraq, the name escapes me
at the moment, fired a pistol near an enemies head to force the
divulgence of his co-conspirators names. He talked and an ambush was
averted, saving American lives. Now that colonel is being tried by our
socialist media for his excessive use of force. What a travesty. And
the biggest travesty is that the Pentagon didn't tell abc,cbs, nbc and
the communist news network to kiss their collective hairy arses. We're
fighting a war, not doing tea with our friends in Iraq. Political
correctness is going to kill us all.
In World War 2, some of the finest warriors known to history
came to the fore, fighting for the US and the UK and yet, during that
same time, we had the vichy French and Chamberlain and Norway's
Quisling government. DeGaulle sat in Britain and pompously planned
France's liberation, yet did not return until Paris was liberated,
IIRC. Roosevelt gave away half of Europe because he admired Stalin so
much. He supported Alger Hiss and after his death, Eleanor supported
him. I knew sailors who had been at Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1942,
who would have pissed on his grave, had it not been so well guarded.
One Boatswains Mate Senior Chief would spit between his fingers every
time he had to say the name "Roosevelt".
Whew, rant mode........off!
joe
> ...
TomB
respected. And folks, the word itself, "lead" means to be IN FRONT.
If you're being pushed by your Lieutenant as he rides a mile BEHIND
you there is something missing from the equation. I just love those
old movies where indians were all arrayed on the top of the bluff and
the way the battle started was that the Chief kicked his horse and
LEAD the way into battle. Yup, dangerous place to be, but if you
won't be there why should your men.
(OK, pretty much theoretical, but damn it, LEADERS SHOULD LEAD.)
On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 16:45:10 +0000 (UTC), "Joseph M. White"
<joseph...@lmco.com> wrote:
> ...
TomB
Hawke
# toughest, smartest force ever developed by any country."
#
# - to which I comment - Are you talking about SOCCOM? Otherwise, if
# you're speaking 'bout all the troops on average (cooks and clerks to
# Captains and Chaplins) I'd spot them some points on smarts, but
# maintain the Imperial Japaneese Army, General Lee's troops or North
# Korea's troops were/are SERIOUSLY "tougher".
#
# Then the scribe goes on and on about how poor our officers are to
# include ... "Most of the line officers do not measure up to their
# enlisted
# commands in honesty, integrity and courage, the three areas that are
# most visible to their enlisted men." (to which he adds 'cept the
# Marines of course.)
#
# Seems to me (and I see these folks daily) the O's are from the same
# society as the enlisted troops, just a little older. I see no
# qualitiative difference in the fibre or mettle, just one has degree,
# the other joined like as not to pay for one.
# Both are victims of a society which found it much easier to drop
# measuring up to any strict core values and worship "diversity",
# "tolerance", and (faux) "freedom".
#
# FWIW, I'd outsource everythin' or bring back a draft.
Since I'm far too old to be drafted myself, I think we should bring back the
draft too. While I personally won't be eligible for any draft, I think we
should have one, and not only that, I think everyone should be forced into
the military whether they want to or not. Why not make it a lifetime
commitment as well, as long as I'm too old myself. After we start putting
everyone into the service we should start some more wars too since what's
the point of having a military if you're not going to use it? Yeah, I think
the draft is a great idea since I won't be in it.
As for the quality of our troops there is one constant that I've heard for
my entire life concerning our military. We have the best troops in the
world. They said that in WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, Gulf I,
Afghanistan, and now Iraq. I guess there is no arguing the point because we
always have the best troops no matter what. Funny how it always works out
that way. Those saying that couldn't be lying or exaggerating, could they?
Far be it from me to question the veracity of that though.
Hawke