Black T vs. ROBAR NP3
Edward T. Shen
I would like to know how these two finishes compare. Recently,
someone
posted that Black T will scratch easily. I have no experience with
either
finish and would like other opinions, my instinct tells me that if it
were
that easily scratched, many people wouldn't get it, but it seems lots
of
guns come with this finish or are being applied with this finish.
Also, are black T and NP3 the same thing but in different colors.
From what
I've read on this list, it seems that NP3 is a teflon coating that
looks
like the factory SIG gray finish, and black T is the blackened
version.
Both are self lubricating and are extremely resistant to corrosion. I
could
be wrong, so if I am, please feel free to correct me. And if they are
the
same thing in different colors, why the huge difference in price???
Birdsong and Assoc will do a complete gun with 2 mags for $125 (from
the Sig
webpage) and ROBAR will do a NP3 finish on a complete gun for
$350...what
gives??? It could be because some are more greedy than others, but I
could
be entirely wrong about the two finishes being the same.
My main concerns is which lasts longer....ie...scratch resistant and
which
is more corrosion resistant and if both are self lubricating. Do both
companies disassemble the complete gun and apply it to all the metal
surfaces of all parts? Are both quality jobs?
Thanks for taking up some of your time. Hopefully, someone knows the
answers out there.
Ed
Pete Prunskunas
Edward T. Shen wrote:
#
# I would like to know how these two finishes compare. Recently,
# someone
# posted that Black T will scratch easily. I have no experience with
# either
# finish and would like other opinions, my instinct tells me that if it
# were
# that easily scratched, many people wouldn't get it, but it seems lots
# of
# guns come with this finish or are being applied with this finish.
#
# Also, are black T and NP3 the same thing but in different colors.
Black-T (W.E. Birdsong & Associates) and Robar's Roguard are both
teflon finishes, of essentially the same quality. Robar's NP3 is
electroless nickel with teflon mixed in (No, I don't know how they do
it). Black-T is offered in black and olive green. NP3 is a gray
finish. NP3 is much more scratch resistant than the teflon finishes,
but it is not as tough as hard chrome or pure electroless nickel (I
know this from personal experience :-( ).
Walt Birdsong will talk your head off describing his Black-T. It is
used by many federal agencies. His price list shows the prices for
various weapons, but my favorite is the "belt-fed weapons, price on
request" :-)
The teflon finish is soft, but not fingernail-scratch soft. It
provides one benefit not often mentioned. It eliminates the need to
lubricate the weapon. This makes it ideal for a semi-auto pistol
which is carried concealed, as there is no oily mess to get on your
clothes.
Pete
Bill Will
#
# Also, are black T and NP3 the same thing but in different colors.
I dont believe that is correct
From what
# I've read on this list, it seems that NP3 is a teflon coating that
# looks
# like the factory SIG gray finish,
NP3 is electroless nickle with PTFE suspended in it.
They also have RoGuard that is a black finish.....I have it on my AR 15
and ROBAR will do a NP3 finish on a complete gun for
# $350...what
Where did you get that?
I have 6 handguns and a AR 15 done there ( I live about 5 miles away)
and none of them cost that. They completely disassemble the gun and
finish
every little piece then reassemble it.
I think the highest I paid ( for the rifle) was $230
#
# My main concerns is which lasts longer....ie...scratch resistant and
My Sig 228 was done over 4 years ago and was in use as a duty weapon..
and the finish is still perfect!!!!
# which
# is more corrosion resistant and if both are self lubricating.
I vote for ROBAR
Do both
# companies disassemble the complete gun and apply it to all the metal
# surfaces of all parts? Are both quality jobs?
As Far as RoBar...yes and YES!!!
Call Robbie and ask them, or ask for Dave...They'll give you the
straight info and a great brochure!
Tell them I told you to call!!!!>..I'm trying to get them into a web
page.
Bill
--
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|-----==(____)--------------| or
|//////_________________| bill...@aol.com
\ /| ( )/ ** Phoenix, Arizona USA **
/ /) -----
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/3326/
/ o /) *Ted Kennedy killed more people with his
/P7M13 /) car than I have with my guns
/o_____/) *gun control is hitting your target
*those who cannot remember history are doomed to repeat it
*SAVE YOUR SECOND AMENDMENT RIGHTS, JOIN THE NRA TODAY!!*
http://www.nra.org
Dan Brown
ed...@uclink.berkeley.edu (Edward T. Shen) wrote:
# Also, are black T and NP3 the same thing but in different colors.
No, not remotely. NP3 is a nickel plating with Teflon added
somehow; Black T is, I think, a polymer/Teflon coating. Robar has a
couple of polymer finishes, but due to their thickness, they can only
be applied to external parts--the tolerances are too close to use them
on internal parts, so Robar usually applies either NP3 or standard
electroless nickel to the internals.
NP3 is almost certainly harder than Black T, and will probably
wear better. However, I think the polymer finishes are more
corrosion-resistant.
--
Dan Brown, KE6MKS, da...@a.crl.com
Finger bro...@holmes.uchastings.edu for public key & Geek Code
E-Mail published at my discretion.
Gary Turner
On 25 Aug 1996, Edward T. Shen wrote:
# Date: 25 Aug 1996 23:46:44 -0400
# From: "Edward T. Shen" <ed...@uclink.berkeley.edu>
# Newsgroups: rec.guns
# Subject: Black T vs. ROBAR NP3
#
# I would like to know how these two finishes compare. Recently,
# someone
# posted that Black T will scratch easily. I have no experience with
# either
# finish and would like other opinions, my instinct tells me that if it
# were
# that easily scratched, many people wouldn't get it, but it seems lots
# of
# guns come with this finish or are being applied with this finish.
#
# Also, are black T and NP3 the same thing but in different colors.
No, they are not the same thing. Robar NP3 is a teflon impregnated nickel
finish. Black-T is a teflon finish.
# From what
# I've read on this list, it seems that NP3 is a teflon coating that
# looks
# like the factory SIG gray finish, and black T is the blackened
# version.
# Both are self lubricating and are extremely resistant to corrosion. I
# could
# be wrong, so if I am, please feel free to correct me. And if they are
# the
# same thing in different colors, why the huge difference in price???
# Birdsong and Assoc will do a complete gun with 2 mags for $125 (from
# the Sig
# webpage) and ROBAR will do a NP3 finish on a complete gun for
# $350...what
# gives??? It could be because some are more greedy than others, but I
# could
# be entirely wrong about the two finishes being the same.
#
# My main concerns is which lasts longer....ie...scratch resistant and
# which
# is more corrosion resistant and if both are self lubricating. Do both
# companies disassemble the complete gun and apply it to all the metal
# surfaces of all parts? Are both quality jobs?
#
# Thanks for taking up some of your time. Hopefully, someone knows the
# answers out there.
#
ED
Actually, Robar's Roguard is more comparable to Black-T than NP3.
Roguard is a sprayed on,baked on polymer finish. It is less expensive than
the NP3, but still more expensive than Black-T. Black-T is much more thin
and harder than Roguard.
I have a Colt Gov't Model done in Black-T. I like it very much. It does
_not_ scrach very easily. It is extremely slick. The finish has a friction
coefficient of .80 (whatever that means?) and lubrication is not required.
Mr. Birdsong says that lubrication will just attract dirt and grime that
is abrasive and will accellerate wear of the finish. I have put almost
2000 rounds through my pistol since having it finished. The finish is
holding up fine. The only place where the finish has worn off is on the
breech face. The frame rails and the end of the barrel, where the bushing
rubs on it are still fine. I would highly recommend black-T.
Gary Turner
NRA in Arizona!
Your Bud Wes
: No, they are not the same thing. Robar NP3 is a teflon impregnated nickel
: finish. Black-T is a teflon finish.
: Actually, Robar's Roguard is more comparable to Black-T than NP3.
: Roguard is a sprayed on,baked on polymer finish. It is less expensive than
: the NP3, but still more expensive than Black-T. Black-T is much more thin
: and harder than Roguard.
: I have a Colt Gov't Model done in Black-T. I like it very much. It does
: _not_ scrach very easily. It is extremely slick. The finish has a friction
: coefficient of .80 (whatever that means?) and lubrication is not required.
: Mr. Birdsong says that lubrication will just attract dirt and grime that
: is abrasive and will accellerate wear of the finish. I have put almost
: 2000 rounds through my pistol since having it finished. The finish is
: holding up fine. The only place where the finish has worn off is on the
: breech face. The frame rails and the end of the barrel, where the bushing
: rubs on it are still fine. I would highly recommend black-T.
:
: Gary Turner
: NRA in Arizona!
I recently spoke with a person that had Black-T done to their firearm,
as well as with a representative for the company. Black-T is, indeed,
VERY thin; about the thickness of blueing according to the Rep. It is
THE most rust resistant aftermarket finish to date(They have yet to
make one of their treated firearms rust even after thousands of hours
in warm-hot salt water). It is very scratch resistant. This is largely
due to the fact that it has a low friction coefficient as Gary previously
stated(it's .08, though. Not .8). This is less than virtually all existing
gun lubricants. They suggest you run the gun dry, in fact, with NO
lubrication at all. The finish is a three-step process. They apply a
base cote that sets the metal up to take the 2 outer layers. This
forms a matrix that binds to the metal and allows the actual finish
to seep into it thoroughly at a very low temperature during application.
This allows the black-t to better penetrate the metal and evenly form
the finish. Black-T is not just a polymer. It is a graphite impregnated
polymer. Graphite-polymer matrixes are extremely slick. NASA, Hughes,
etc. all use graphite polymers for frictionless applications. They are
also very durable, and last many years even in high-use apps. This is
why the application is so thin, and why the manufacturer would
recommend running it dry. Some of my engineering buds that I have
spoken with about it have wondered why it wasn't available sooner.
"It would be the perfect finish for any high-use/high-wear low
friction application..." to quote one of my mechanical engineering
colleges from Cal Poly SLO.
I recently sent in a 1953 LightWeight Colt Commander(38 super) to
have treated with Black-T. This is a very nicely crafted firearm
that I have been searching for a finish for for quite some time.
Because of it's age and condition, I did not take refinishing it lightly.
I had to find the absolute best finish I possibly could for it.
It needed a finish that would work on both steel and alloy. I also
wanted a finish that didn't require me to strip the hard anodized
finish from the frame. After considering literally dozens of finishes
I finally settled on Black-T. I have absolutely no reservations.
They are able to apply the Black-T over the hard anodized frame,
in affect giving me 2 highly protective finishes on the most
critical part of my Commander. This clinched the deal for me.
All this with an attractive matt black look. I'll make sure to
posts my findings in about a month, or so, when I get the Colt back.
--
Wes Y. Keller
AKA:
Your Bud Wes
WYK
NC0439
http://www.hooked.net/~wes/wyk.html
search: http://www.lycos.com
MAMBA 9
I have heard time and time again 3 things
1)Black-T is 50% more durable than Roguard
2)Roguard has peeled of one BIG name custom gunsmiths stuff so often
ROBAR lost a couple hundred guns a month to Birdsong.
3)ROBAR should stick to NP-3. It is in reality the finest firearms finish
on the
Market, it it was BLACK in color there would be no need for BLACK-T or
ROGUARD!
Electroless Nickel is the most rust resistant finish known to man when
properly applied. Just ask ROBAR
ROGUARD came off a Galco belt buckle with the aid of a sharp fingernail.
If your gun finish must be BLACK-Black T or Bear Coat from
Rocky Mtn. Arms Longmont,CO is the way to go. Les Baer uses Bearcoat
exclusively and so does the FBI HRT. He thinks its better than Birdsong.
So does Rock Mtn Arms--something about higher Quality Teflon used than
Birdsong?
My .02
Hilton Yam
I have a Black T custom 1911 that I have used for IPSC and has about
10,000 rounds and mucho holster use on it. The gun has no corrosion on
it (I have practiced and shot matches out in the rain with it), and the
holster wear is less than with a blued gun. I estimate that Black T
wears from 50-100% better than bluing. When I first got the gun, it
was a very matte black, but hard use has burnished the surface a bit so
that it is now more satin. I use a Kydex holster, and that leaves a
different wear pattern, though that has not worn through the finish
either. The gun is a bit easier to clean since the finish leaves the
gun quite slick on the surface. I can't run my 1911 without oil, I
think because my gun is fit really tight. I really like Black T and
would recommend it to anyone.
Hilton Yam
Ground Zero Knives
Exclusive Northeast Dealer for Mad Dog Knives/Kydex Holsters
visit our website http://www.evtec.com/gzk
**not affiliated with W. Birdsong/Black T
Don't be limited by your equipment!
GROUND ZERO KNIVES -- PERFORM WITHOUT LIMITS
Robert P. Firriolo
What are the respective costs to treat a pistol with these finishes?
What are the respective waiting times for getting the job done?
Robert P. Firriolo
**************************************************************
Don't Tread on Me!
"Little more can reasonable be aimed at with respect to the
people at large than to have them properly armed and equipped."
- Alexander Hamilton
The Federalist Papers - Number 29
***************************************************************
Gary Turner
On 28 Aug 1996, MAMBA 9 wrote:
#
# If your gun finish must be BLACK-Black T or Bear Coat from
# Rocky Mtn. Arms Longmont,CO is the way to go. Les Baer uses Bearcoat
# exclusively and so does the FBI HRT. He thinks its better than Birdsong.
# So does Rock Mtn Arms--something about higher Quality Teflon used than
# Birdsong?
#
#
# My .02
#
Whoa there! The FBI specified in the contract with Baer that the pistols
be finished with Black-T. Mr. Birdsong told me that when he and the FBI
found out that Baer was not using Black-T they both got Pi**ed.It appears
that Baer was telling the FBI and other customers that the finish on their
guns was Black-T and it was in fact NOT. Mr. Birdsong told me that his
attorney sent Baer a letter instructing him to stop using his product name
in falso advertising. He also told me that the FBI was not too happy with
Baer over the whole thing.
The FBI is still sending Birdsong firearms to have the Black-T finish, so
I would guess that they still prefer it to the "other" company's finish.
Gary Turner
Gary's Gun Stuff: http://www.primenet.com/~gturner
NRA in Arizona!
Hilton Yam
Just to put in my .02 and help out the informational exchange, I had
talked with Walt Birdsong and he told me the very same thing that Mr.
Turner reported below. Get the real thing!
Hilton Yam
Ground Zero Knives
Exclusive Northeast Dealer for Mad Dog Knives/Kydex Holsters
Visit our website http://www.evtec.com/gzk
KHCIII
can someone provide a contact number for Mr. Birdsong's operation?
post or e-mail at khc...@aol.com
thanks, ken c