Beretta Tomcat Owners
Jon
If you own a 3032 Beretta .32 "Tomcat" and are aware of the recent
reports of a 1000 round service life, and possible frame failues, please
write Beretta and voice your concern.
Beretta U.S.A. Corporation
17601 Beretta Drive
Accokeek, MD 20607
fax: 301-375-7677
Sandy Eisele, Ph.D.
S&W stated that +P ammunition should not be used in the air weight
guns. A magazine put 2500 rounds thorugn several of these guns without
any changes. The small S&W sigma reportedly would not stand up to
2500 rounds but it did when a magazine tested it. I would like to see
the real data on the problem with the Tomacat. Stay Safe
Sandy
On 10 Jan 1998 16:12:39 -0500, "Jon" <jt...@oz.net> wrote:
# If you own a 3032 Beretta .32 "Tomcat" and are aware of the recent
#reports of a 1000 round service life, and possible frame failues, please
#write Beretta and voice your concern.
#
#Beretta U.S.A. Corporation
#17601 Beretta Drive
#Accokeek, MD 20607
#fax: 301-375-7677
#
A voice in the wilderness...
Well, Beretta has admitted that while the pistol is designed for a
service life of approximately 1000 rounds, during their testing several
have been fired 3000 times without signs of frame failure.
Mortalis
In <699bcl$h...@xring.cs.umd.edu> san...@negia.net (Sandy Eisele, Ph.D.)
writes:
> ...
recent
> ...
please
> ...
Jon
A voice in the wilderness... <mort...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<69ajbd$4...@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com>...
#
# Well, Beretta has admitted that while the pistol is designed for a
# service life of approximately 1000 rounds, during their testing several
# have been fired 3000 times without signs of frame failure.
#
# Mortalis
Possibly, but can this statement be documented any more accurately than the
claims of 300 round failures? I'd hate to be hanging on to a Tomcat when
it decided to fail and throw the slide in my face. There is no label on
the box indicating a 1K round lifespan. BTW, how many weekends does it
take to shoot 1000 rounds? I'm supposed to buy a new Tomcat every month?
/Jon
Redbeerd45
I think Beretta is guilty of shoddy production and autrocious public relations.
I am surprised that they have not gotten sued. If one assumes that picking a
defense load will take several hundred round of experimentation (it certainly
should), and that anyone depending on the gun should practise with it
frequetly. You basically are going to go through one gun a year. That is
pretty pathetic. Especially if it is true that they do not warn people in
advance that the gun is a disposable one.
JMHO,
Damien
Davis, Ca
Phillip Nuner
I wrote Beretta yesterday (Sunday) evening and faxed the letter to them.
One of their rep's called me today about 1:00 p.m. (central time). He
basically said that the 1000 rounds is what they expected the gun to be shot
so that is the number of rounds that they put through it during their tests.
They used strictly Winchester Silvertips. He claimed that there have been
many he has heard of with much more rounds through them. He didn't give a
number of rounds though or any supporting info. In my letter I asked about
the one year warranty and he basically said don't worry that they will stand
behind their product. My brother-in-law did have a trigger spring break and
sent it in. He got it back in about three weeks. Not a bad turn around.
I should add that I didn't talk to the rep directly (I wasen't home when he
called) he left a message on my answering machine. He did leave his name
number and extension. If anyone is interested his name is Earnest the
number is 301-285-2191 Ext. 340.
Nick Sredy
Hardee har har.... I am watching with great delight the posts about the Beretta Tomcat and it's supposed
failures. Frankly, I don't know weather to laugh or cry.
First, let me point out that I presently own three Beretta handguns. The model 92FS, model 85BB and the model
950. I no longer have a CCW permit, but when I did have one, I would typically carry a handgun for
self-defense approximately 3 times a year. When I carried a gun for personal protection, I never assumed that
I would breakdown doors and conduct drug raids, protect dipolomats, or pretend that I was James Bond. I'm
sorry, but I carried a gun because I expected to be in an area where there was little police protection and a
"possibility" of running into a mugger.
So...what was my prefered "carry gun", as you Walter Mitty types like to talk about? A 44 Magnum? Yes, I own
6 of those. A .357 Magnum? Yes, I own 16 of those. A .45 ACP? I used to own 5 of those, but now I only own
a single piece. So, what did I carry? A Beretta 950 in .25 ACP! Why? Because it was small and lightweight.
Does the .25 have much stopping power? No. Does it have a high magazine capacity? No. Then, why carry the
doggone thing? Because, it was small and lightweight.
Now then, you ask...how many rounds have I put through that little Beretta Jetfire? Oh...after owning the
thing for about 12 years, I would say that I have fired a grand total of 15 rounds. 15 rounds?! Only 15 lousy
rounds?! Well, my goodness fella, how the hell are you gonna get ready for Octopussy and Goldfinger and all
those other super-duper bad guys when you only shot the darn thing with 15 lousy rounds?! Simple....I'm not a
"secret agent man" like the rest of you out there. (I'm beginning to think that I am the only one that reads
this newsgroup that isn't one too....Jethro.)
So, let me wrap this up here. A small frame gun like the Beretta Jetfires/Tomcats, AMP Backups, Seecamps,
Walther TPH, and so forth....were never made to shoot hundreds of rounds each weekend. Besides, who can afford
all that expensive small caliber, centerfire ammo in the first place. What is it? Do you have a rich Uncle
Jed that hails from Bugtussle?
Good luck and good shooting Mr. Bodine.
Jon
Phillip Nuner <nu...@chickasaw.com> wrote in article
<69esv9$4...@xring.cs.umd.edu>...
# I wrote Beretta yesterday (Sunday) evening and faxed the letter to them.
# One of their rep's called me today about 1:00 p.m. (central time). He
# basically said that the 1000 rounds is what they expected the gun to be
shot
# so that is the number of rounds that they put through it during their
tests.
# They used strictly Winchester Silvertips. He claimed that there have
been
# many he has heard of with much more rounds through them. He didn't give
a
# number of rounds though or any supporting info. In my letter I asked
about
# the one year warranty and he basically said don't worry that they will
stand
# behind their product. ........
So, they expected the gun to be shot only 1000 times?! How many of you
gents and ladies reading <rec.guns> have shot your guns more than 1000
times? You can all sit down now. At what point in the short,
unpredictable life of the Tomcat do you expect the frame to break? Do you
want to be holding it when it does? Personally, I think the "warranty" is
meaningless in this situation. Beretta ought to buy-back these turkeys.
It appears that Beretta intends to brush off individual owners as above.
Maybe all 3032 owners feeling burned ought to get together via email and
discuss things. Any attorneys in the crowd?
/Jon
Barry S Brummett
Now, *this* is one of the scariest emails I've read in a long time.
Here's a guy who does not treat a gun as a serious matter. My friend, you
might want to shoot that thing more than 15 times so as to be able to hit
what you aim at, rather than your family, the cat, or your own foot. It
really doesn't matter whether you pull the gun out once a year or once an
hour, it is a serious and deadly matter to do so each and every time you
do it, and if you have not perfected your skills on a weapon then shooting
poorly once a year is bad enough. No need to accuse people who
familiarize themselves with a deadly weapon of indulging in James Bond
fantasies; I'd call it "being responsible." Now, do we get to call you
some names in return?
On 13 Jan 1998, Nick Sredy wrote:
[material cut]>
> ...
[material cut]>
> ...
Light11101
#I wrote Beretta yesterday (Sunday) evening and faxed the letter to them.
#One of their rep's called me today about 1:00 p.m. (central time). He
#basically said that the 1000 rounds is what they expected the gun to be shot
#so that is the number of rounds that they put through it during their tests.
#They used strictly Winchester Silvertips. He claimed that there have been
#many he has heard of with much more rounds through them. He didn't give a
#number of rounds though or any supporting info. In my letter I asked about
#the one year warranty and he basically said don't worry that they will stand
#behind their product. My brother-in-law did have a trigger spring break and
#sent it in. He got it back in about three weeks. Not a bad turn around.
#
#I should add that I didn't talk to the rep directly (I wasen't home when he
#called) he left a message on my answering machine. He did leave his name
#number and extension. If anyone is interested his name is Earnest the
#number is 301-285-2191 Ext. 340.
I was reading all these posts reguarding the Tomcat and I couldn't help wonder
about my Beretta. I bought a used 92F years ago and when I got it, I used to
wonder about the old myth of the slides cracking. I worried especially because
I owned the 92F, not the 92FS. Well I soon forgot about it, as I have put
thousands and thousands of rounds through it since. But now I'm starting to
think about those slide failures. Doesn't the modern 92FS have a some sort of
built in feature that corrected the slide cracking? Is my 92F in any kind of
danger? Can my gun be upgraded? Thanks in advance...
Shane
Alex...@webtv.net
#vir...@erols.com Wrote:
#Hardee har har I am ... watching
#snip
To carry a gun you don't know works or how to shoot is not very good
planing. If you think you might actually have to use the piece it would
be nice to know it will work and how to hit your target. I don't know
any other way to do this but practice. I had planed to get my wife a
tomcat when they first came out. I saw some people at the range haveing
probs. with theirs and now with what i have heard here i am not even
considering it. I would never have a gun for self defense that i could
not practice with.
"Never mind the dog"
"BEWARE OF OWNER'
Nick Sredy
Okay...after reading my previous post on the Tomcat, I must appologize for going a bit overboard in expressing
my opinion. But, after reading a couple of posts, I would like to say the following:
I used to be an avid gun collector. At one time, I intended to own one of everything. I was buying a gun a
month for a few years, so I had put together quite a collection over time. Someone asked in this thread, how
many of you have put a thousand rounds through your guns? Well, honestly, there are only three guns that I
have probably done that with: A Remington 870 Trap gun (byt the way, the receiver cracked and I had to send it
back to the factory), a Ruger 10/22 carbine and a Ruger Mark II pistol (yes, those little Rugers tough guns).
But, since I own quite a few and have limited spare time to go shooting, I often rotate what I am shooting.
So, when I comes to handguns, I mostly shoot the Ruger Mark II for practice. I shoot my Smiths, Colts,
Beretta's, etc., when I'm in the mood for centerfire. As for putting a tousand rounds through a little pocket
gun like the Tomcat....? I'll bet you guys have day-long badmitten tournaments too!
Another gentlemen replied to me via e-mail and mentioned that his preferred "firearm" for protection was a pen
gun! Yes, that's right a single shot! I wonder how many rounds he's put through that thing? Probably just a
few to function test it, I'll bet. Once again, for the rest of us that are not trying to save the world from
Godzilla, a small device such as a pen gun or pocket pistol is sufficient. I'm just glad that we have all you
"secret agent types" practicing by putting thousands of rounds through Seecamps, Backups, Tomcats and TPH's.
Good luck and good shooting.
Hyrkania
Can we finally put this tired old horse to rest please?
For the umpteenth time the FEW slide failures the military
experienced were caused by ammo that was WAY over
SAAMI specs. This fact has been documented in several
tech articles over the years. Yes, for political reasons only ,
Beretta put a slide retaining pin on the FS model.
I have personally put over 11,000 rounds thru my 92FS using
lead bullets. No damage, and not one single jam during this
time. Oh yea, you can even shoot the gun UPSIDE DOWN
and it still refuses to jam. (Try that with your Glock)..... Later
On 13 Jan 1998 21:46:34 -0500, light...@aol.com (Light11101) wrote:
> ...
Lee DeRaud
[Previous poster stated that Tomcat 1000rd limit was not a
problem: shoot 15rds for familiarization and "save" it
for social encounters.]
Barry S Brummett wrote:
# Now, *this* is one of the scariest emails I've read in a long time.
# Here's a guy who does not treat a gun as a serious matter. My friend, you
# might want to shoot that thing more than 15 times so as to be able to hit
# what you aim at, rather than your family, the cat, or your own foot.
While I agree with this in principle, it makes the HUGE assumption
that this is the *only* handgun the guy owns or shoots. Yes, there
are differences switching from say a Desert Eagle to a Tomcat, but
if the skills gained shooting one pistol didn't transfer to another,
nobody would ever make it out of a public range alive.
OTOH, if it *is* his only gun, he ought to shoot it until it wears
out and then buy a second one to use. Preferably in a city a good
long distance from where I live...
Lee
Douglas
Light11101 wrote:
#
# #I wrote Beretta yesterday (Sunday) evening and faxed the letter to them.
# #One of their rep's called me today about 1:00 p.m. (central time). He
# #basically said that the 1000 rounds is what they expected the gun to be shot
# #so that is the number of rounds that they put through it during their tests.
# #They used strictly Winchester Silvertips. He claimed that there have been
# #many he has heard of with much more rounds through them. He didn't give a
# #number of rounds though or any supporting info. In my letter I asked about
# #the one year warranty and he basically said don't worry that they will stand
# #behind their product. My brother-in-law did have a trigger spring break and
# #sent it in. He got it back in about three weeks. Not a bad turn around.
# #
# #I should add that I didn't talk to the rep directly (I wasen't home when he
# #number and extension. If anyone is interested his name is Earnest the
# #number is 301-285-2191 Ext. 340.
#
# I was reading all these posts reguarding the Tomcat and I couldn't help wonder
# about my Beretta. I bought a used 92F years ago and when I got it, I used to
# wonder about the old myth of the slides cracking. I worried especially because
# I owned the 92F, not the 92FS. Well I soon forgot about it, as I have put
# thousands and thousands of rounds through it since. But now I'm starting to
# think about those slide failures. Doesn't the modern 92FS have a some sort of
# built in feature that corrected the slide cracking? Is my 92F in any kind of
# danger? Can my gun be upgraded? Thanks in advance...
# Shane
Silde cracking was mostly due to the use of very hot smg ammo with
regular ammo and good maintenance your great grandchildren will be using
it "IF " they can still own guns. Douglas
Alex...@webtv.net
Ok if you want to collect fine. The people you are haveing so much fun
with here are talking about self defense. If you are good with your MKII
and that is what you would use to protect yourself great.Small hand guns
are very hard to use well. A thousand rounds through one won't take long
if you want to keep in practice. I won't bet my life on any gun until i
can put about 400 rounds through it without a malfunction. After that a
trip to the range with the piece every month or two with one box of
ammo adds up pretty fast if 1000 rounds is its life.If you think people
who carry to defend them selves are funny you have your right to your
opinion. What the hell the bad guys have to eat too its a good thing
they well have someone like you to support them.
Bill Nine Toes
Nick Sredy wrote in message <69iho7$c...@xring.cs.umd.edu>...
#Okay...after reading my previous post on the Tomcat, I must appologize for
going a bit overboard in expressing
#my opinion. But, after reading a couple of posts, I would like to say the
following:
#
#I used to be an avid gun collector. At one time, I intended to own one of
everything. I was buying a gun a
#month for a few years, so I had put together quite a collection over time.
Someone asked in this thread, how
#many of you have put a thousand rounds through your guns? Well, honestly,
there are only three guns that I
#have probably done that with: A Remington 870 Trap gun (byt the way, the
receiver cracked and I had to send it
#back to the factory), a Ruger 10/22 carbine and a Ruger Mark II pistol
(yes, those little Rugers tough guns).
#But, since I own quite a few and have limited spare time to go shooting, I
often rotate what I am shooting.
#So, when I comes to handguns, I mostly shoot the Ruger Mark II for
practice. I shoot my Smiths, Colts,
#Beretta's, etc., when I'm in the mood for centerfire. As for putting a
tousand rounds through a little pocket
#gun like the Tomcat....? I'll bet you guys have day-long badmitten
tournaments too!
#
#Another gentlemen replied to me via e-mail and mentioned that his preferred
"firearm" for protection was a pen
#gun! Yes, that's right a single shot! I wonder how many rounds he's put
through that thing? Probably just a
#few to function test it, I'll bet. Once again, for the rest of us that are
not trying to save the world from
#Godzilla, a small device such as a pen gun or pocket pistol is sufficient.
I'm just glad that we have all you
#"secret agent types" practicing by putting thousands of rounds through
Seecamps, Backups, Tomcats and TPH's.
#
The problem with the "1000 round gun" isn't that you figure to put 1001
rounds through it, but the concern that it might not work with, say, the
323rd round you're trying to put through it, the one that you're shooting at
this guy who's coming at you with an axe.
If there were such a thing as an *absolutely* reliable gun that was only
good for, say, fifty shots (but absolutely reliable for those fifty shots)
after which it would fall apart on the 51st, I don't think that would be a
problem. Take it down to the range, fire it twenty or so times to be sure
you can aim it, and then don't worry about it.
Joshua R. Poulson
"Bill Nine Toes" <nine...@bigfoot.com> writes:
# The problem with the "1000 round gun" isn't that you figure to put 1001
# 323rd round you're trying to put through it, the one that you're shooting at
# this guy who's coming at you with an axe.
The quote from Beretta said that they were intended to go through *at
least* one thousand rounds, and many of their test guns operated well
beyond that before showing signs of serious wear.
(As an aside, my Tomcat is a hideout gun, the primary carry gun is the
Beretta Cougar 8040F in .40 S&W... much larger, much stronger...)
pistol
license to NZ! If you should violate the regs and ship anyway you are
looking at a min of 10 years in hard labor for each offense! And they
will catch you!This means you will work for $30 per year.I wouldn't bet
that the other end doesn't have a direct line to US Customs.
Gale McMillan
DOC519
> ...
Beretta made no corrections to the 92F when they built the 92FS as far as an
end to slide cracking. They DID add a piece of metel near the back, in front
of the hammer, to catch the slide if it does break. Again, don't loose any
sleep over a broken slide. The hype came about during grueling military tests
using +P+ rounds. I don't know of many semi-auto shooters out there that will
subject there firearms to those pressures over and over again without expecting
a failure.
doc...@aol.com
Stoer1
When it comes to guns you can never be good enough. Especially if you have a
concealed carry permit. I can't imagine someone who only puts 11 rounds
through their carry gun. Imagine if this person is attacked, and when
responding in their non-James Bond type fashion they shoot an innocent
bystander. Wouldn't that be a great victory for the anti-gun crowd. I can
here it now "Porrly trained Idiot with Licenced Deadly Weapon".
My state doesn't have a CCW law at all, but if it did I would be the first in
line to get a permit. I would consider it my duty to be properly trained with
it. When it comes to life or death situations you can never get enough
practice. All you can do is practice every week and pray that your good
enough.
Luke
Nick Sredy
Obviously I have too much time on my hands or else I would do something more productive with it.
I agree that I do not get out and shoot enough. Perhaps I am wrong, but I have always felt that the best gun
to practice with is a good quality 22 LR. The ammo is inexpensive, the noise level does not annoy the
neighbors, and you can fine tune your shooting skills with such a gun.
As for my comments on the little Tomcats, Jetfires and Backups... I recently saw a gun rag put out by Guns &
Ammo concerning law enforcement firearms. In the mag, Robert Shimek writes an article about "deep cover" guns.
Basically, little pocket guns meant for police to carry as a back-up. I really think that this is what the
manufacturers had in mind when they designed these little guns. They were looking to produce a compact gun
that could fit in a uniform pocket, go unnoticed and act as a last resort in a confrontation of at very close
range.
I also agree that putting several thousand rounds through what I would call a "standard" service
pistol/revolver is not asking too much. Guns like the 1911, Hi-Power and 92FS should certainly stand-up to
such use without a malfunction.
Also, I agree with the last fellows post about have guns that must function all the time. But I must add, I
have owned some "dogs" in my time that came right out of the box defective. This happens. Watch out.
S. Fuller
Bill Nine Toes (nine...@bigfoot.com) wrote:
: The problem with the "1000 round gun" isn't that you figure to put 1001
: rounds through it, but the concern that it might not work with, say, the
: 323rd round you're trying to put through it, the one that you're shooting at
: this guy who's coming at you with an axe.
I think we're getting a bit confused here. You're talking about
the Tomcat .32 -- he's talking about the .25 Jetfire (applies to the .22
and .25 Bobcats, too). These little guns are super-reliable and function
great. It's the Tomcat that everyone is having problems with. In fact,
I spoke with someone at a gun store recently who says that he's never had
a problem with the Bobcats/Jetfires, but gets more than 50% of them back
for broken springs and such.
Personally, I'd rather have a .22 or .25 that spits lead than a
.32 (or a .44) that spits parts.
steve
John Will
On 16 Jan 1998 14:37:43 -0500, Nick Sredy <vir...@erols.com> wrote:
#As for my comments on the little Tomcats, Jetfires and Backups... I recently saw a gun rag put out by Guns &
#Ammo concerning law enforcement firearms. In the mag, Robert Shimek writes an article about "deep cover" guns.
# Basically, little pocket guns meant for police to carry as a back-up. I really think that this is what the
#manufacturers had in mind when they designed these little guns. They were looking to produce a compact gun
#that could fit in a uniform pocket, go unnoticed and act as a last resort in a confrontation of at very close
#range.
I doubt that's really what they intend them for. Since there is a
much larger market with non-LEO customers, that's a more logical place
to put your marketing. You're looking at the law enforcement
viewpoint, there are other viewpoints...
MrsSusanH1
So, what did I carry? A Beretta 950 in .25 ACP! Why? Because it was small
and lightweight.
Does the .25 have much stopping power? No. Does it have a high magazine
capacity? No. Then, why carry the
doggone thing? Because, it was small and lightweight.
If "small and light weight" are your only concerns, you'd be better off using
your brain instead of a firearm. Better yet, why not use a feather for
protection ("Tickle, tickle mean Mr. Mugger. Take that...and that...and...!)
In the words of someone who knows: "What a maroon!!"
Mikjrob
Lod airport, 1972 -- secret Israeli Sayeret Mat'kal anti-terrorist unit uses
Beretta .22s to take out four armed terrorists in 90 seconds, storming a
crowded Sabena arliner. This establishes their fondness for the gun and the
caliber, and underscores its effectiveness in the hands of skilled shooters. In
the assault they used 60 rounds -- the only reason was the last terrorist was
hidden in the front lavatories (there were four doors); rather than search them
one at a time, the operators just used multiple mags to shred the lavs and kill
the bad guy "in place" (hence the use of so much time and ammo -- ha!).
so....take it from those who REALLY know. It remains one of their primary
weapons of choice to this day. I'd face a mugger if I were armed with a little
Beretta with no lack of confidence whatever.