.30-30 power point vs core lokt
M.C. Williams
rifle range so I decded to try my own tests on 170 grain .30-30 factory
ammo for expansion at 150 yards. I soaked a bunch of old news papers and
put them at the 150 yd backstop then put a 1 gallon milk jug full of
water in front f them. All shooting was done from 150 yards using 170gr
power points and 170gr core lokts.
Four of each were shot into the jugs and wet paper, in every case the
corelokts got more response out of the jugs and had a much larger
mushroom than the power points, the corelokts were also expanded further
down on the jacket. The power points had about 2 inches more penetration
into the wet news papers than the core lokts.
What this actually proves about which is better I don't know for sure
but since under penetration has never been a problem with either load
but expansion has I would hive a slight edge to the core lokts.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Learn about rec.guns at http://www.recguns.net
-----------------------------------------------------------------
nord...@yahoo.com
Intersting data; thanks for sharing. Ammo for the 30 WCF has been
optimized for medium game over the past 115 years so there isn't much
to recommend one brand over another. I'm between 30-30s just now but
when I owned some I simply used whatever shot best from my guns.
penultimate
As in any comparison between any two sensibly chosen from virtually
all "big game" cartridges and bullets in common hunting use in North
America, the more deadly round is that which YOU shoot most
accurately. Neither caliber nor cartridge nor bullet nor foot pounds
nor completely imaginary BS like "hydrostatic shock" compensate for a
bad shot.
For deer with a 30/30 shot at reasonable range, I doubt a lifetime of
kills could prove an advantage of Corelokts over Power Points (or vice
versa). But, if it were me using a 30/30, for elk, a goodly black
bear, or moose (a little less gun than I would normally recommend by
not less than I would be quite willing to use), based on your test
results I'd go with the Power Points. Even if you hit the right spot,
on these animals penetration can matter.
clarkm...@gmail.com
220 gr bullet, W748, and a load Quickload thinks is 92kpsi.
That was NOT in a lever action with thin steel, like a Win94. It was
with a Sav219 with thick steel surrounding the case.
"Speer 12" 1994:
"Some bolt-action and single-shot rifles have been chambered for this
cartridge. Reloaders can sue spritzer-type bullets in these rifles,
but should keep the weight to 150 grains or less. Heavier spritzer
bullets cannot be drive fast enough in the 30-30 to expand reliably.
We are occasionally asked if the 30-30 can be loaded to higher
velocities in a modern bolt action like the Remington model 788. The
answer is NO! The 30-30 case is an old design with relatively thin
walls. Attempting to load "hotter" would risk a dangerous case
failure."
I used RP, FC, WW, and Win brass.
I don't know which brass Speer 12 was talking about.
penultimate
Loading a 30/30 to 92K PSI! I suppose we can hope QuickLoad is wrong.
A suitably strong firearm or not, what possibly useful purpose is
served by cranking up a load anywhere near this overpressure with a
30/30? There is no shortage of more potent 30 caliber rounds out
there. And, Clark, thick steel (of reliably uniform modern
metallurgy) or not, how good is the gas venting on that 219?
Certainly Savage did not design the Model 219 over 70 years ago
expecting loads where blown primers would be a reasonable expectation
rather than a very remote possibility. And have you considered that
to my awareness the barrel lug on a Savage 219 is brazed (at least
onto factory barrels)? How confident are you that that brazed joint
was engineered not to prematurely fatigue when subjected to shear
forces derivative of hoop stress (thick steel or not) at 92K PSI?
God takes care of drunks and fools and maybe Clark too. The rest of
us might be wise to believe whats in the manuals --- if for no other
reason than because Speer has figured out dead customers are not a
source of repeat business and a real annoyance when represented by
counsel.
Clark is a knowledgeable guy that evidently is unable to resist
pushing the limits. I really don't care if he risks reasonable
possibility of injuring himself and the certainly that he is
accelerating wear and failure potential for his firearms. It's his
life, guns, and money (though I don't think I would knowingly buy a
used rifle from him!). But when he drops his hot load experience onto
the internet like pearls of wisdom from above, he has no idea if the
reader is smart enough to understand and follow the precautions he
himself advises let alone the ones he might simply assume his readers
knew about.
The thing that really pisses me off is that Clark's whole point in
posting the above seems to be to boost his own ego by claiming
experience which proves people writing a manual nearly 20 years ago at
Speer (who are justifiably concerned with safety because the second
they are not, they are all unemployed) don't know squat about 30-30
cases. How many of these 92Kpsi 30-30's did you fire Clark? Maybe 80
or so? Maybe a few more? Maybe a couple of hundred? How many times
did you reload each case? I imagine to a company like Speer that
makes millions of bullets, that endorsing a practice which in and of
itself led to case failure at a rate of once in 100,000 rounds would
be absolutely unacceptable. Does anybody think Clark fired anywhere
near 100,000 of these rounds?
The good news is that Clark knew he was on dicey ground and chose not
to tell us the powder charge for his "92Kpsi" load. We can hope the
several out there dumb enough to try it don't know how to use
QuickLoad.
clarkm...@gmail.com
and cartridges have a SAAMI registered pressure, and the difference
can be interesting.
The 270 Win is registered at 65,000 psi and will have one time brass
life at ~75kpsi and a few times at ~70kpsi due to loose primer
pockets.
The 30-30 is registered at 42,000 psi and will live indefinitely at
much higher pressures than 75 kpsi and is in fact limited by primer
piercing. If the firing pin is very accurately bushed for higher
pressure ala 6mmBR, the primer will still pierce, although at even
higher pressure and the 30-30 case head will still be tight.
This is because of the design.
The 270 has a thin spot between the extractor groove and the primer
pocket. This weak ring of brass is under compression from the case
pushing back and tension from the gas inside the primer pushing out.
The 30-30 has the same primer pocket, but being a rimmed case, does
not have a deep extractor groove, so the brass is thicker. Also the
inside diameter of the 30-30 is smaller than the 270, making less
force backwards.
Anyone, that has been overloading guns and cross sectioning brass,
might question that the Speer 12 warning about 30-30 brass.
Here is my advise on how to write a mediocre load book:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.guns/browse_thread/thread/1f090932775caa11/772459399a2afb1d?hl=en&q=+group:rec.guns#772459399a2afb1d
TonyW
an article in an old American Rifleman mag about hot loads in a .30-30
single shot. As I recall it was a rebarreled Ruger #1. The guy was
loading it to near magnum pressures without a problem. Here too the
load data wasn't listed but only the pressures. In a strong rifle with
a proper chamber, it seems the .30-30 will live happilly at much higher
pressures than most of the lever and bolt guns can.
With that said... I'll stick with published load data for my Model 94
Winchester and 325 Stevens.
Tony
Larry
# Intersting data; thanks for sharing. Ammo for the 30 WCF has been
# optimized for medium game over the past 115 years so there isn't much
# to recommend one brand over another. I'm between 30-30s just now but
# when I owned some I simply used whatever shot best from my guns.
I don't own a .30-30, but do own a .45/70. The Hornady LeverRevolution
bullets shoot substantially flatter. If I owned a .30-30, I would
certainly give them a try.
nord...@yahoo.com
# bullets shoot substantially flatter. If I owned a .30-30, I would
# certainly give them a try.
Please tell us more. What is your 100 yard point of impact for a 200
yard zero? What did you use before? Are you running a Marlin - long
barrel or short (like me), Winchester, or a single-shot? What are the
groups like? Have you used them on game yet? Details man, details!
john
........ Details man, details!
Nordrs wish I could give you some real details but the best I did was
shot with iron sights and I only shot 10 rounds of the Lever
Revolution ammo. My Marlin Glenfield 30A with the sight ladder raised
to where it would shoot apx 2-4 inches high at 100 yards with 150 gr
and dead on to apx 2-3 inches low with 170's. This highly scientific,
double blind, under highly controlled environmental conditions
government financed study was done with factory ammo. BS aside, at 200
yards I'd aim apx 6 inches high with 150's and apx 10 inches with
170's. Best I recall as it has been over 20 years since I did it. The
10 inch hold over never shot below the bullseye. With your guess as
good as mine whether or not the sight ladder had been moved before
trying the lever revolution ammo. Aiming dead on I was 2-4 inches high
at 100 and no more than 2 or 3 inches low at 200. I have to brag that
while conducing this scientific test shooting from a standing position
I put one right into the bull at 200. In a nutshell the heavier
Hornady slug I believe was 165 gr shot pretty much the same as the
flat nosed lighter 150's.
I've never shot a deer at 200 yards with a 30/30. I have to admit to
once shooting at a deer at 200 yrds plus with a 30/30. Turned out
though the deer was wearing Kevlar. By the time I cranked in another
shot he was long gone. Assuming there is enough down range velocity at
200 to get sufficient penetration with Lever Revolution ammo. With the
new Hornady ammo, I would aim a bit high at 200 yards if I had a tree
to lean on. Hunting Arizona Desert Muleys with nothing to lean on
unless one is into S&M and enjoys removing cactus thorns. I'd pull the
trigger as soon as I had the front bead in front of the deer's guts
and below his spine.
In summary and in my humble and often worthless opinion. A 30/30 is a
150yrd max deer rifle. Possibly with the new wonder ammo one could
squeeze another 50 yards. An Elk gun it is not unless a skilled hunter
could score a head shot. The new ammo might put down an Elk with a
well placed shot in the heart/lung area at close range but chances are
good the coyotes will find him before the hunter after spending hours
following a blood trail.
sta...@prolynx.com
# # bullets shoot substantially flatter. If I owned a .30-30, I would
# # certainly give them a try.
#
# Please tell us more. What is your 100 yard point of impact for a 200
# yard zero? What did you use before? Are you running a Marlin - long
# barrel or short (like me), Winchester, or a single-shot? What are the
# groups like? Have you used them on game yet? Details man, details!
#
I used them this year in the Marlin 1894 in .44, they're not magic. I
finally connected with a spike at about 40-50 yards, so didn't really
give them a work out for range, either. It did the job, but no better
or worse than the 240 gr. Nosler HPs I'd been using. I had to cut the
carrier back to get them to feed with untrimmed brass, the factory
loads have shorter cases than standard. I did find that a week in the
tube didn't give them flat points, had heard that was a problem in
the .30/30 in some earlier posts in another forum. Groups with them
were about the same as with the Noslers, they're both 100-125 yard
loads on that fact alone. I'm pretty sure you can't match factory
ballistics with canister powders. The ones I have more hopes for are
the 265 gr. items in a Redhawk. They fit the cylinder and are a much
better ballistic proposition than the 225 gr. The 225 just isn't long
enough for a very high ballistic coefficient, what you pick up on
velocity, you lose down-range. Didn't get to field the 265s this year
for various reasons. They won't feed through a Marlin, even a
modified one, just a smidgeon too long. They're also limited on
powder space, at least with H110. Can't really stuff enough in to get
into trouble, although Clark would try, I'm sure... Both handloads
are way outside the SAAMI gauge limits for OAL for the .44. With the
pointy red tips, they are sexier looking than a plain old hollowpoint,
probably Hornady sells a ton just from that.
Stan
Larry
#
# # I don't own a .30-30, but do own a .45/70. The Hornady LeverRevolution
# # bullets shoot substantially flatter. If I owned a .30-30, I would
# # certainly give them a try.
#
# Please tell us more. What is your 100 yard point of impact for a 200
# yard zero? What did you use before? Are you running a Marlin - long
# barrel or short (like me), Winchester, or a single-shot? What are the
# groups like? Have you used them on game yet? Details man, details!
Sorry to take so long getting back to you. I"m really just butting in
to the conversation, since I don't own a .30-30, but no one was
mentioning the Hornady contribution.
My .45/70 is a Marlin 1895 with the microgroove rifling and a 4x fixed
Leupold scope. I used Hornady's suggested sighting, which puts the 325
gr. bullet 3" high at 100 yards and 4" low at 200 yards. After that it
drops fast, so I don't try shots much past 200 yards. Accuracy is
excellent. At 100 yards, I can cover the group with my thumb, shooting
from a bench. How much that means for a hunting rifle is good for hours
of campfire debate. The LeveRevolution bullet gives me about 2" extra
at each aim point over the Winchester 300 gr. hollow points I used to
hunt with. Without messing with the sights, the 405 gr. Remington Core-
Lokt hits about 1" high at 100 yards and a foot low at 200 yards.
If I was shooting a .30-30, I would certainly shoot a box of the Hornady
to see how the rifle likes it. The bullet has a better BC (.330) than
the flat nosed bullets available for the .30-30. That means better
performance downrange. There is a whole article on the subject at
http://www.realguns.com/archives/120.htm
The author concludes that most of the claims are BS, but the bullet does
shoot flatter and retain more energy.
The only thing I would correct in the article is that Hornaday publishes
reload data for the LeveRevolution bullets on their web site.
http://www.hornady.com/assets/files/ftx_load_data/30-30_win_ftx.pdf
nord...@yahoo.com
# Leupold scope. I used Hornady's suggested sighting, which puts the 325
# gr. bullet 3" high at 100 yards and 4" low at 200 yards. After that it
# drops fast, so I don't try shots much past 200 yards. Accuracy is
# excellent. At 100 yards, I can cover the group with my thumb, shooting
# from a bench. How much that means for a hunting rifle is good for hours
# of campfire debate. The LeveRevolution bullet gives me about 2" extra
# at each aim point over the Winchester 300 gr. hollow points I used to
# hunt with. Without messing with the sights, the 405 gr. Remington Core-
# Lokt hits about 1" high at 100 yards and a foot low at 200 yards.
Nice details. My Guide Gun really likes the Winchester Nosler
Partition ammo; too bad I can't afford it very often. For handloads
it's very happy with the Hornady 350 gr roundnose soft or a cast 400
gr flatnose and enough IMR 3031 for ~1600 fps. The only game I've
taken with it was with the 405 gr Remington factory at about 20
yards. When I hunt with the 45-70 the range to target is better
measured in feet rather than yards so I won't be needing the gummi
bear tips any time soon. Thanks again!