Baikal rifle problem
misanthropic_curmudgeon
I've just posted a story over in rec.hunting, and the firearms-related
issue is my 'new' single-barrell break-open/take-down Baikal.
The short version is:
When it is loaded and closed gently and fired, one can hear the
'click' but the firing pin does not strike the primer. If I slam it
closed quite violently, it fires properly every time. In between the
sighting excercise and this misfire, I had taken a few falls in the
bush.
The longer versions is what I posted in rec.hunting
"With the cross-hairs lined up, I squeezed the trigger. Click. [snip]
it had functioned well when sighting it in, and it was new factory-
ammunition. A misfire was unheard of. [snip] I reloaded with a fresh
round. There she was, with her back to me doing a ‘if I can’t see
you, you can’t see me’ ostrich impersonation, as I gently closed the
gun and lined up on the back of her neck. Click. [snip] Maybe one
of the falls I had taken had damaged this otherwise robust gun?
Unlikely, but what else was there? Two faulty rounds? I quietly
chambered a few more rounds and ‘fired’ them into the ground, all with
the same effects: No primer had any indentation on it from the firing
pin. It was a rifle issue.
Being a break-open type of rifle, it was easy to remove the barrel and
‘cock’ it. I placed my finger over where the firing pin comes out of
the stock/action, and squeezed the trigger, expecting to not feel the
firing pin come out, and have to again return to base camp. Ouch!
Well, the firing pin works! That hurt!
Right calibre, right case/bullet, firing pin working, but no contact
with the primer? Odd. Now that the hind had finally stopped barking
her alarm at me and in a fit of utter disgust, I loaded a round,
slammed the rifle closed while simultaneously cursing, and pointed it
at the ground. Thwock. What the heck? It works! Again I reloaded,
with one of the ‘faulty’ rounds. Again I slammed it closed with a
muttered profanity regarding acts of copulation with ones mother, and
pointed it at the ground. Thwock. OK, so it looks like my robust
Russian rifle does not want to be treated gently, but likes a good
slapping? I can do that."
Any help/guidance would be appreciated.
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nord...@yahoo.com
# 'click' but the firing pin does not strike the primer. If I slam it
# closed quite violently, it fires properly every time.
# Any help/guidance would be appreciated.
I wonder if there isn't some sort of interlock mechanism that prevents
the hammer from being released when the action is not fully closed and
latched. If that were a little out of adjustment then not closing the
action firmly might cause the problem you describe. There's nothing
labeled as such in the owner's manual parts diagrams I could find
http://stevespages.com/pdf/remington_spr18.pdf or
http://www.eaacorp.com/Manuals/IZH-18-Manual.PDF I wonder if removing
the stock from the action would allow you to clean the works with carb
cleaner then carefully lube the mechanism. With the action exposed
you might be able to duplicate the problem with an unloaded chamber.
Look for movement of the barrel latch when then hammer falls, or maybe
some interference between the cocking indicator and the hammer. Or
have your gunsmith have a look at it, or send it back to the factory/
warranty station for repair
DougC
# The short version is:
# When it is loaded and closed gently and fired, one can hear the
# 'click' but the firing pin does not strike the primer. If I slam it
# closed quite violently, it fires properly every time.
That would be a simple adjustment for a gunsmith.
Over time, if you continue to slam it, the internal snag may wear down
by itself and behave normally.
Try a drop of gun oil around the firing pin.
Doug Chandler
sta...@prolynx.com
# the hammer from being released when the action is not fully closed and
# latched. If that were a little out of adjustment then not closing the
# action firmly might cause the problem you describe. There's nothing
# labeled as such in the owner's manual parts diagrams I could findhttp://stevespages.com/pdf/remington_spr18.pdforhttp://www.eaacorp.com/Manuals/IZH-18-Manual.PDF I wonder if removing
# the stock from the action would allow you to clean the works with carb
# cleaner then carefully lube the mechanism. With the action exposed
# you might be able to duplicate the problem with an unloaded chamber.
# Look for movement of the barrel latch when then hammer falls, or maybe
# some interference between the cocking indicator and the hammer. Or
# have your gunsmith have a look at it, or send it back to the factory/
# warranty station for repair
#
The presence of an opening latch interlock feature was my first
thought and it being out of proper adjustment.
If it's a cock on closing action, the cocking rod might be just a bit
short, leaving the hammer half-cocked and without enough energy to
fire when closed gently. If you really snap it closed, the cocking
rod might have just enough energy to get the hammer up to full-cock.
Couldn't access the second pdf from here and the first one has
miserable detail on the exploded drawing. And I'd second the "send it
back" notion. If you can duplicate the problem at will, it should be
easy for the repair facility to fix if you give all the details.
Stan
Rubaiyat of Omar Bradley
full closed position.
Jim Bianchi
# # I wonder if there isn't some sort of interlock mechanism that prevents
# # the hammer from being released when the action is not fully closed and
# # latched. If that were a little out of adjustment then not closing the
# # action firmly might cause the problem you describe. There's nothing
# # labeled as such in the owner's manual parts diagrams I could findhttp://stevespages.com/pdf/remington_spr18.pdforhttp://www.eaacorp.com/Manuals/IZH-18-Manual.PDF I wonder if removing
# # the stock from the action would allow you to clean the works with carb
# # cleaner then carefully lube the mechanism. With the action exposed
# # you might be able to duplicate the problem with an unloaded chamber.
# # Look for movement of the barrel latch when then hammer falls, or maybe
# # some interference between the cocking indicator and the hammer. Or
# # have your gunsmith have a look at it, or send it back to the factory/
# # warranty station for repair
# #
# The presence of an opening latch interlock feature was my first
But the OP said he'd tested the thing several times by opening the
action, placing his thumb in front of the firing pin hole, and pulling the
trigger, so apparantly there is no 'opening latch interlock' (or if there
is, it is *REALLY* out of adjustment).
penultimate
Problems like this are why you pay money to a qualified gunsmith, or,
as a by no means foolproof alternative, spend a bit more money next
time on a higher quality firearm.
Petey
# spend a bit more money next time on a higher quality firearm.
I would pit my Baikal's against a lot of modern domestic made crap.
They might be kind of rough (finish-wise), but Baikal's are usually built
Russian tank tough.
nord...@yahoo.com
# # # some interference between the cocking indicator and the hammer.
# # #
# # The presence of an opening latch interlock feature was my first
#
# But the OP said he'd tested the thing several times by opening the
# action, placing his thumb in front of the firing pin hole, and pulling the
# trigger, so apparently there is no 'opening latch interlock' (or if there
# is, it is *REALLY* out of adjustment).
Good point. Seems more likely something is interfering with the fall
of the hammer, something that isn't getting out of the way when the
action is gently closed.
penultimate
# penultimate wrote:
#
# # spend a bit more money next time on a higher quality firearm.
#
# I would pit my Baikal's against a lot of modern domestic made crap.
#
# They might be kind of rough (finish-wise), but Baikal's are usually built
# Russian tank tough.
As it seems you are saying that Baikal firearms are quality-
competitive with [at least certain] "crap" domestic made firearms, I
don't think we disagree. Certainly there are some of those about. I
think Baikal firearms stand up well when compared to foreign "crap"
products as well. When it comes to "crap" guns, I am even willing to
say that Baikal's may be among the very best. That said, my point
about higher quality firearms (which cost a bit more) stands. And,
of course, it does not take much time at the gunsmith for any apparent
economy in buying a crap gun to evaporate.
Though not for me and with the caution that that roughness is evident
inside as well, that rough finish quality you mention in a Baikal is a
matter of taste. I am sure at least some men might prefer those
Russian women built like a tank to more svelte and generally refined
foreign and domestic models.
Kevin Snodgrass
# matter of taste. I am sure at least some men might prefer those Russian
# women built like a tank to more svelte and generally refined foreign and
# domestic models.
And Anna Chapman resembles which tank?
(Ha-cha-cha!)
Petey
# And, of course, it does not take much time at the gunsmith for any
# apparent economy in buying a crap gun to evaporate.
Funny you should say that after I just got done reading a 1911 specific
forum and noting how many domestic 1911's (even high-end ones) have to go
back to to their respective companies for service after being newly
purchased.
Not that I'm comparing apples to oranges here, but the butt-ugly "cheaper"
CZ firearms I own (as compared to their American equivalents) have given me
ZERO problems straight out of the box.
penultimate
# On Sat, 23 Apr 2011 18:46:57 +0000, penultimate wrote:
#
#
#
She was hand built by the KGB for export!
penultimate
# # apparent economy in buying a crap gun to evaporate.
#
# Funny you should say that after I just got done reading a 1911 specific
# forum and noting how many domestic 1911's (even high-end ones) have to go
# back to to their respective companies for service after being newly
# purchased.
#
# Not that I'm comparing apples to oranges here, but the butt-ugly "cheaper"
# CZ firearms I own (as compared to their American equivalents) have given me
# ZERO problems straight out of the box.
1. I don't personally include CZ on the crap maker list. I have
owned a couple of CZ bolt actions, both of which were first rate
rifles for the money that functioned perfectly.
2. While the firearms I most often purchase are between 50 and 100
years old (I don't know if less crap was made then or if most of it
has already been thrown away), in pistols bought new i have had zero
problems, out of the box with a Kimber, Springfield Armory, and Para
Ordinance in 45 ACPs and none to speak of with used Colt and various
military 1911's. With good ammo and beyond a bad spring or a crap
after-market magazine, I have a hard time imaging a 1911 (or 1911-
like) that does not "work" well, neither of which is reason to send
for service. But, if you feed el cheapo mixed brass reloads, who
knows? Never had a problem with a S&W, Ruger, Colt, or Freedom Arms
wheel gun either, though some are more accurate in my hands than
others.
3. In addition to function and pride of ownership, the case for
buying older, high quality, firearms, is that they go up in value and
when sold yield a profit.
4. Noting that I see no reason for owning an ugly gun (except as a
truck-gun), it is you that pointed out Baikal's have a pretty rough
finish and that CZ pistols are butt-ugly.
misanthropic_curmudgeon
# Problems like this are why you pay money to a qualified gunsmith, or,
# as a by no means foolproof alternative, spend a bit more money next
# time on a higher quality firearm.
You are of course quite right, and I've hunted to date with a range of
'higher quality' firearms. But the environment down here is not
conducive to taking many of those 'higher quality' firearms into the
bush for weeks on end, and hence why many hunters down here have 'good
guns' for the 200m-300m-glassing-the-faces hunting and 'bush guns' for
'getting-close-and-dirty' 10m shots on-one-foot-over-and-around-log-
and-through-the-scrub that get the blood pumping in the Roar
misanthropic_curmudgeon
# # When it is loaded and closed gently and fired, one can hear the
# # 'click' but the firing pin does not strike the primer. If I slam it
# # closed quite violently, it fires properly every time.
#
# # Any help/guidance would be appreciated.
#
# I wonder if there isn't some sort of interlock mechanism that prevents
# the hammer from being released when the action is not fully closed and
# latched. If that were a little out of adjustment then not closing the
# action firmly might cause the problem you describe. There's nothing
# labeled as such in the owner's manual parts diagrams I could find
# http://stevespages.com/pdf/remington_spr18.pdf
Thanks for the URL
One thing that my subsequent 'playing' has revealed is that happens
with both the 'locking latch' and the 'cocking indicator'
In both scenarios (ie closed gently and only clicks, and slapped
closed and fires) the 'cocking indicator' indicates that the rifle is
cocked: there is no perceptable difference between the cocking
indictaor showing cocked in either scenario
In the 'slapped closed and fires' scenario, the locking latch is fully
and rigidly extended and locked into place as one would expect.
In the 'closed gently and only clicks' scenario, the locking latch
appears to be fully extended and locked into place, but a gentle
squeeze reveals this is not the case: the locking latch has what we
call slop.
# Or have your gunsmith have a look at it, or send it back to
# the factory/ warranty station for repair
(Like all my rifles) it is second-hand: no warranty exists, and being
in NZ there is no repair agent. It's a local smithy, oneself, or
nought. And given the price of one of these things, it's not long
before using a smithy means I could buy a new one!
nord...@yahoo.com
# with both the 'locking latch' and the 'cocking indicator'
#
# In the 'slapped closed and fires' scenario, the locking latch is fully
# and rigidly extended and locked into place as one would expect.
#
# In the 'closed gently and only clicks' scenario, the locking latch
# appears to be fully extended and locked into place, but a gentle
# squeeze reveals this is not the case: the locking latch has what we
# call slop.
#
# And given the price of one of these things, it's not long
# before using a smithy means I could buy a new one!
Sounds like you found the problem. Can you disassemble the rifle far
enough to see if there are any burrs or rough spots on the locking
latch or its recess? Some judicious stoning or polishing might help.
Otherwise, you may just have to remember to treat your "strong like
tractor" rifle without kindness when closing the action. Good
hunting!
Murff
# hence why many hunters down here have 'good
# guns' for the 200m-300m-glassing-the-faces hunting and 'bush guns' for
# 'getting-close-and-dirty' 10m shots on-one-foot-over-and-around-log-
# and-through-the-scrub that get the blood pumping in the Roar
I have to say that even in the UK, with a reasonable service support, my
deer rifles are the "rough and ready" end (and none the worse for it).
And my walked-up rough-shooting shotgun is the same. The nice Beretta is
kept for clays, and anything that involves wearing a tie.
Murff...
Bob Holtzman
# On Wed, 27 Apr 2011 02:24:56 +0000, misanthropic_curmudgeon wrote:
#
# # guns' for the 200m-300m-glassing-the-faces hunting and 'bush guns' for
# # 'getting-close-and-dirty' 10m shots on-one-foot-over-and-around-log-
# # and-through-the-scrub that get the blood pumping in the Roar
#
# I have to say that even in the UK, with a reasonable service support, my
# deer rifles are the "rough and ready" end (and none the worse for it).
# And my walked-up rough-shooting shotgun is the same. The nice Beretta is
# kept for clays, and anything that involves wearing a tie.
There's a shooting discipline that involves wearing a tie? Man, you
Brits *are* weird.
--
Bob Holtzman
Alex Cunningham.
# On 2011-04-30, Murff <mu...@warlock.org> wrote:
# # On Wed, 27 Apr 2011 02:24:56 +0000, misanthropic_curmudgeon wrote:
# #
# # # guns' for the 200m-300m-glassing-the-faces hunting and 'bush guns' for
# # # 'getting-close-and-dirty' 10m shots on-one-foot-over-and-around-log-
# # # and-through-the-scrub that get the blood pumping in the Roar
# #
# # I have to say that even in the UK, with a reasonable service support, my
# # And my walked-up rough-shooting shotgun is the same. The nice Beretta is
# # kept for clays, and anything that involves wearing a tie.
#
# "Bob Holtzman" <hol...@sonic.net> wrote:
# There's a shooting discipline that involves wearing a tie? Man, you
# Brits *are* weird.
#
If one wishes to rub shoulders with the landed gentry on a shooting estate,
one must cleave to the archaic custom of appropriate dress for the event.
;-)
--
Cheers!
Alex.C
penultimate
#There's a shooting discipline that involves wearing a tie? Man, you
# Brits *are* weird.
And afterwards for dinner they expect you will change into a monkey
suit! But we Americans should give thanks there are Kiwis and
Australians, as the Brits would otherwise think us the most uncouth of
colonials.
misanthropic_curmudgeon
# On 2011-04-30, Murff <mu...@warlock.org> wrote:
[snip]
# # I have to say that even in the UK, with a reasonable service support, my
# # And my walked-up rough-shooting shotgun is the same. The nice Beretta is
# # kept for clays, and anything that involves wearing a tie.
#
# There's a shooting discipline that involves wearing a tie?
A gentleman would not be a gentleman if he went shooting without a tie
(and tweed jacket).
nord...@yahoo.com
# # kept for clays, and anything that involves wearing a tie.
#
# There's a shooting discipline that involves wearing a tie? Man, you
# Brits *are* weird.
Yeah, in America we wear blaze orange to reduce the chances of being
shot because someone mistakes us for a quail.
Bob Holtzman
#
# #
#
# If one wishes to rub shoulders with the landed gentry on a shooting estate,
You mean it would be frowned on if I showed up in torn Levis and stood
around belching and scratching my balls?
--
Bob Holtzman
Gunner Asch
wrote:
#On 2011-05-01, Alex Cunningham. <true...@hotmail.com> wrote:
##
## # "Bob Holtzman" <hol...@sonic.net> wrote:
## # There's a shooting discipline that involves wearing a tie? Man, you
## # Brits *are* weird.
## #
##
## If one wishes to rub shoulders with the landed gentry on a shooting estate,
## one must cleave to the archaic custom of appropriate dress for the event.
#
#You mean it would be frowned on if I showed up in torn Levis and stood
#around belching and scratching my balls?
Even if you were holding a pint of Guiness....
<G>
Alex Cunningham
# # # Brits *are* weird.
# # #
# #Alex Cunningham. <true...@hotmail.com> wrote:
# # If one wishes to rub shoulders with the landed gentry on a shooting
# estate,
# # one must cleave to the archaic custom of appropriate dress for the
# event.
#
#"Bob Holtzman" <hol...@sonic.net> wrote:
# You mean it would be frowned on if I showed up in torn Levis and stood
# around belching and scratching my balls?
#
You might find it difficult to scratch your balls when placed in the stocks
which is where you would end up for belching in polite company. ;-)
--
Cheers!
Alex.C
misanthropic_curmudgeon
# On 2011-05-01, Alex Cunningham. <trueb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
# ## # # There's a shooting discipline that involves wearing a tie? Man, you
# # # Brits *are* weird.
# # #
# #
# # If one wishes to rub shoulders with the landed gentry on a shooting estate,
#
# You mean it would be frowned on if I showed up in torn Levis and stood
# around belching and scratching my balls?
"Jeeves, release the hounds."
Murff
#
# There's a shooting discipline that involves wearing a tie? Man, you
It is the distinction between "rough shooting", and "formal", driven
shooting. It is social as much as anything else.
Syndicate shoots, where a group of people clubbed together to hold and
run what used to be aristocratic shooting rights, developed largely after
the 1914-1918 war, with the breakup of the large estates (due in no small
part to the sons of those estates doing really daft things, like charging
intersecting machine guns with .455 Webley revolvers). Latterly, may
syndicates also do their own gamekeeping - maintaining the shoot,
organising beaters, buying in and releasing the birds and so on.
We're not lords of the manor. But a certain tradition remains nonetheless.
Weird, maybe. But I do tee-shirts and camouflage shooting deer, rabbits
and ducks. A little bit of formal dressing is fun, too :-)
Murff...
Murff
# But we Americans should give thanks there are Kiwis and
# Australians, as the Brits would otherwise think us the most uncouth of
# colonials.
#
Having worked on-and-off in and with Americans, I'd not say "uncouth".
But certainly full of surprises :-)
misanthropic_curmudgeon
[snip]
# we Americans should give thanks there are Kiwis and
# Australians, as the Brits would otherwise think us the
Ouch
penultimate
# Having worked on-and-off in and with Americans, I'd not say "uncouth".
#
Full of something, anyway!
Petey
#
# You mean it would be frowned on if I showed up in torn Levis and stood
# around belching and scratching my balls?
Why do you think Charles and the boys are sometimes photographed in Scottish
kilts then? ;-)
And if you run over a patch of brambles while hunting in a kilt, you don't
even have to resort to scratching by hand. =:-0
penultimate
# Bob Holtzman wrote:
#
# # You mean it would be frowned on if I showed up in torn Levis and stood
#
# Why do you think Charles and the boys are sometimes photographed in Scottish
# kilts then? ;-)
#
# And if you run over a patch of brambles while hunting in a kilt, you don't
# even have to resort to scratching by hand. =:-0
Is it true that Scotsmen wear kilts because sheep can hear the sound
of a zipper at 50 paces?
Murff
#
# Is it true that Scotsmen wear kilts because sheep can hear the sound of
# a zipper at 50 paces?
#
No. The kilt is an 18th century invention. The original garment is
something called a "plaid" which is essentially a large blanket worn
wrapped around the waist, and then over one shoulder. Typically fastened
with a brooch of some sort. It doubled as a sleeping blanket.
(Incidentally, tartans as family- or regimentally-associated patterns
date from quite late-on, too).
In any case, sheep aren't worried about Scotsmen. You're thinking
Welshmen and Aussies :-)
Murff...
penultimate
# On Wed, 04 May 2011 12:06:18 +0000, penultimate wrote:
#
#
# In any case, sheep aren't worried about Scotsmen. You're thinking
# Welshmen and Aussies :-)
#
# Murff...
Sort of like Texas where the women are women, the men are men, and the
heifers are nervous?
Petey
# On May 3, 7:20�am, Petey <peetee...@comcast.net> wrote:
# # Bob Holtzman wrote:
# #
# # #
# # # You mean it would be frowned on if I showed up in torn Levis and stood
# # # around belching and scratching my balls?
# #
# # Why do you think Charles and the boys are sometimes photographed in
# # Scottish kilts then? ;-)
# #
# # And if you run over a patch of brambles while hunting in a kilt, you
# # don't even have to resort to scratching by hand. =:-0
#
# Is it true that Scotsmen wear kilts because sheep can hear the sound
# of a zipper at 50 paces?
That, and those tall rubber boots to restrain them when finally caught. ;-)