.308 Mausers
S. Fleming
from Steyr, former Israeli and former Spanish Civil Guard. Any
opinions on these?
Thanks.
Steve.
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Danjoyce2
The C&R FFL board had a lot of info on these rifles lately. Here is what I got
out of it. Spanish 308---was chambered for a CENTIME 7.62 Cartridge close to
the 7.62 NATO and 308 Win but it was not advisable to use either of these two
cartridges. The Styer and the Isriali [sp] should be fired with 7.62x51 mm
[308NATO] only, not with commerical 308 Win. I have two of the converted 308
Styers and they shoot well with Milsurp 308 Nato ammo. Opinions were that
commerical 308 Win ammo was too strong/powerful for these "old" actions. Same
goes for the 2A Indian Enfields in 308, Which I have one of and use the 7.62
Nato in also. Hope this helps you instead of confusing you. Regards, Dan
P.S. If you handload your own ammo,there should be no problem if you stay
around the 45,000PSI area.
Gunner K98
I have one that is stamped, "7.62 N". The left side of the receiver says,
"Mauser Chileno Modelo 1895, Deutsche Waffen-und Munitionsfabriken, Berlin".
The stock is not numbered to the gun, but it does have an ISRAELI star-of-David
proofmark.
Being an 1895 action, would you say that I should use only the Nato ammunition
and not the commercial stuff? I have fired the CAVIM
(Venezuelan?) 7.62 Nato through it with no problems.
Thanks.
Cogito Ergo Zoom Lauren
#Hi There:
#The C&R FFL board had a lot of info on these rifles lately. Here is what I got
#out of it. Spanish 308---was chambered for a CENTIME 7.62 Cartridge close to
#the 7.62 NATO and 308 Win but it was not advisable to use either of these two
#cartridges. The Styer and the Isriali [sp] should be fired with 7.62x51 mm
#[308NATO] only, not with commerical 308 Win.
This is a highly controversial topic - has been for some years. The one thing
most agree on is to avoid those Mausers that were converted from 7x57.
Pressures and dimensions are not that much different for 7.62x51 and .308
Winchester, and while some see a safety hazard there, I have yet to hear of a
rifle that was safe with either cartridge "blowing up" with the other cartridge
due to the use of that cartridge.
FWIW,
LCB
Fasteddie3
<<I was thinking about getting a .308 Mauser and have seen ads for ones
from Steyr, former Israeli and former Spanish Civil Guard. Any
opinions on these?
#>
The M12/61 Chilean Mausers combine a commercial-grade action with a so-so
barrel. I've seen 24" barreled versions with 2-groove rifling (like the '03-A3
Springfield or Savage-made #4 Enfields), I recently got one and it shoots
fairly well with military 7.62NATO ammo, we'll see with handloads and better
sights. There are also some 29" barreled guns with 5-groove polygon rifling,
there was some discussion that these were original 7x57 barrels that had been
rebored and the chamber sleeved to accomodate the shorter 7.62 chamber. At
least one post had the sleeve loosen and fall out, which means a new
replacement barrel. Good cheap shooter as is, great potential for upgrading and
worth it because of that super fine action.
The Israeli 7.62s are mainly WW2 surplus '98s rebarreled with (supposedly)
excellent barrels made by FN of Belgium. Action quality depends on what the
original '98 was, could be peacetime Oberndorf or post-war Yugoslav, and in
most of the guns the original manufacturers markings were ground off in
refinishing the gun. Good cheap shooter as is, questionable on upgrading
depending on the quality of the action.
The Fg-7 and Fg-8 Spanish 7.62 conversions are the least desirable: the FG-7 is
based on the Spanish M93 action, of questionable quality and definately weaker
design than the M98 actions. I wouldn't shoot one with _any_ 7.62NATO ammo,
much less .308 Winchester. The FG-8 is a Spanish-made M98 action, better but
the few examples I've seen lack the fit and finish of the better '98s.
Despite the armchair expertise that has been tossed around about these guns
being 'too weak' for the commercial .308 Winchester round, I would have not the
slightest qualms about shooting any commercial .308 Winchester round or
comparable handload in the Steyr or Israeli conversions, assuming the gun to be
in good condition and having fired a fair bit of 7.62 NATO ammo to spot any
problems with the chamber or bore dimensions.
Hope these opinions help
Ed Arnold
NRA Life Member
KYRIEELLIS
In article <75bbbg$k...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, gunn...@aol.com (Gunner K98)
writes:
#Being an 1895 action, would you say that I should use only the Nato
#ammunition
#and not the commercial stuff? I have fired the CAVIM
#(Venezuelan?) 7.62 Nato through it with no problems.
FYI, here is a passage from Jerry Kuhnhausen's "The Mauser Bolt Actions, A
Shop Manual:
"...Mauser M91~M95 actions, even in fully serviceable or in as-new condition,
must not be rebarrelled and chambered for, or fired with, higher pressure
cartridges than the action was originally made for. An example of stretching
this rule is found in the arsenal rebarrelling and chambering of M93/M95 small
ring Spanish Mauser actions to fire the 7.62 CETME cartridge...After conversion
these rifles were redesigned as 1916 Models. At normal temperatures, the 7.62
CETME cartridge generates pressures in roughly the 41,500-42,000 CUP range in a
correctly dimensioned chamber and bore."
Mr. Kuhnhausen goes on in the next paragraph to say;
"To compound the above, a 7.62x51 NATO (or a .308 Winchester) cartridge will
chamber in a 1916 Model 7.62 CETME chamber. However, a 7.62 NATO or .308
Winchester cartridge can generate pressures of about 55,200 CUP. THIS PRESSURE
RANGE IS DANGEROUS EVEN IN A WELL HEAT TREATED GERMAN OR SWEDISH MADE SMALL
RING M91~M96 MAUSER ACTION BUT, IN MY OPINION, CAN BE PARTICULARLY DANGEROUS IN
THE MUCH SOFTER SPANISH MADE ACTIONS."
The section I have transcribed in caps is in bold faced type in the
original.
Kyrie
LBurk44884
AJMarin
I have an Spanish Civil Guard. For what I have heard, it is not a real .308 or
Nato-round rifle, it uses a lighter loaded cartridge called the Cetme because
regular loads could be dangerous. At this point, I converted mine into a wall
ornament. Bottom line: Don't buy it
Trap1100
Arne Carlsten
: What about the Chilean M95 converted to .308 Nato?
: I have one that is stamped, "7.62 N". The left side of the receiver says,
: "Mauser Chileno Modelo 1895, Deutsche Waffen-und Munitionsfabriken, Berlin".
: The stock is not numbered to the gun, but it does have an ISRAELI star-of-David
: proofmark.
Dunno what the mark may actually be, but it's not an Israeli proofmark.
Most of the Israeli conversions have only a couple of Hebrew characters on
the barrel, "7.62" stamped on the receiver ring and the toe of the stock,
and a date like "62-7" or similar on the barrel.
The Chileans converted their 7mmx57 Mauser M95s to 7.62mm NATO locally.
They seemed to think it was good enough for the folks who would be using
the rifles, but most of the authorities seem to consider 7.62mm NATO
and/or .308 Wincheter more powerful than should be used in a pre-M1898
Mauser. I wouldn't argue with that...
You could use fairly light handloads in this rifle with a high degree of
safety; but I wouldn't recommend using military 7.62mm NATO, and
especially not modern sporting .308 Winchester loads.
: Being an 1895 action, would you say that I should use only the Nato ammunition
: and not the commercial stuff? I have fired the CAVIM
: (Venezuelan?) 7.62 Nato through it with no problems.
CAVIM is Venezuelan, yes.
--
Arne Gustav Carlsten Flagstaff, Arizona
Chomh da/na le muc...
BJ Bell
Inc. via a friend with a FFL (more on this later). On top of the receiver is a crest
with a stag wearing a crown and an eagle wearing a crown on the right of the crest.
Underneath, "Modelo 1912-61 NATO" is stamped. On the left side of the receiver,
"WAFFEN FABRIK STEYR AUSTRIA" is stamped. Serial Number is B95XX.
Question 1: What's the big deal about shooting .308 Win through these rechambered
Mausers? Are the difference between 7x57 and .308 chamber and C.U.P. pressures so
great that you are almost certain to blow up the receiver?
Question 2: Can you tell me the year of manufacture of my rifle, the year it was
rechambered, and by whom?
BTW, I would be very wary of purchasing a surplus military rifle from this company.
Their flyer stated the condition of these rifles as "Good to Very Good". Ha! I
discovered a nice big fat crack in the stock's hand grip after cleaning the massive
amounts of cosmoline gunked everywhere. I found other flaws that will need fixing
before I even considering plinking with it. A friend bought one these rifles too.
He found similar problems. One could say, "What do you expect for $100?" A lot more
since I've purchased surplus rifles in the past for around the same amount and
received a weapon in much better condition!
Arne Gustav Carlsten
#I recently purchased rechambered .308 Mauser 98 Short Rifle from SOG International
#Inc. via a friend with a FFL (more on this later). On top of the receiver is a crest
#with a stag wearing a crown and an eagle wearing a crown on the right of the crest.
#Underneath, "Modelo 1912-61 NATO" is stamped. On the left side of the receiver,
#"WAFFEN FABRIK STEYR AUSTRIA" is stamped. Serial Number is B95XX.
This is a different rifle than the Chilean M95 mentioned earlier.
The Chilean M1912 is a Mauser 1898 made by Waffenfabrik Steyr in
Austria.
The crest certainly sounds like the one on Chilean rifles. Though
that's supposed to be a condor on the crest...
#Question 1: What's the big deal about shooting .308 Win through these rechambered
#Mausers? Are the difference between 7x57 and .308 chamber and C.U.P. pressures so
#great that you are almost certain to blow up the receiver?
In the case of M1898 rifles, I don't think this is anything to
especially worry about, if the rifle is in good condition. Steyr made
M1898s in 7mmx57 and 7.92mmx57; on the same lines, using the same
materials. There's a _very_ slight chance that the particular rifle
in question was in some way flawed enough that it would have failed
with a 7.92mm proof load but passed with a 7mm proof load. But that
strikes me as unlikely in the extreme... Be far more concerned with
the current condition of the rifle and the competency with which it
was rebarreled.
At any rate, it's pretty unlikely that you'll actually "blow up" the
receiver. More likely, you'll have some advance warning of problems:
case separations due to excessive headspace as the bolt sets back or
similar. Though Kyrie has posted here about observing a Spanish M1893
or M1916 converted to 7.62mmx51 that had the barrel blown out of the
receiver ring while being used with .308 Winchester ammunition.
#Question 2: Can you tell me the year of manufacture of my rifle, the year it was
#rechambered, and by whom?
Steyr made rifles for the South American export market up until World
War I; so your rifle was made sometime between 1913 and 1914. The
rebarreling (I believe these involve new barrels?) would seem to have
been undertaken sometime around 1961, perhaps later, depending on the
priority given to the conversion.
The "Waffenfabrik Steyr" marking leads me to suspect that the
conversion might have actually been done at Steyr. At the time of
initial manufacture, the factory's official name was "Oesterreichische
Waffenfabriks-Gesellschaft, Steyr"; I don't think that "Steyr" was
used as a company name until later (post-WW II?). Anyone have more
info on this?
#BTW, I would be very wary of purchasing a surplus military rifle from this company.
#Their flyer stated the condition of these rifles as "Good to Very Good". Ha! I
#discovered a nice big fat crack in the stock's hand grip after cleaning the massive
#amounts of cosmoline gunked everywhere. I found other flaws that will need fixing
#before I even considering plinking with it. A friend bought one these rifles too.
#He found similar problems. One could say, "What do you expect for $100?" A lot more
#since I've purchased surplus rifles in the past for around the same amount and
#received a weapon in much better condition!
SOG has a pretty good reputation; it's possible that this one slipped
by due to the heavy coat of grease you mention. Have you contacted
them about the deficiencies?
On the other hand, $100 for a Steyr-made M1898 chambered for a popular
cartridge like the 7.62mm NATO, in what sounds to be at least
serviceable condition, is a pretty good deal if you're looking for a
shooting, rather than collecting, rifle.
--
Arne Gustav Carlsten
Flagstaff, Arizona
Fasteddie3
<<Question 1: What's the big deal about shooting .308 Win through these
rechambered
Mausers? Are the difference between 7x57 and .308 chamber and C.U.P. pressures
so
great that you are almost certain to blow up the receiver?>>
In a word, NO. The Steyr M-12 is an excellent example of the M-98 action, made
with peace-time care, and with good metallurgy. I doubt that the strength is
much less than the FN commercial actions that were used to build guns in just
about every conceivable caliber in the '70s and '80s.
Question 2: Can you tell me the year of manufacture of my rifle, the year it
was
rechambered, and by whom?>>
Year of manufacture starts with the model year, 1912, and certainly stops with
theoutbreak of WW1, 1914. The conversion was marked as '1961' on most of the
guns I've seen, I would assume that the date is correct.
By the way, I've seen two entirely different types of rifling in these guns,
wondering which type your gun has. Short rifles appear to be two-groove
rifling, while a number of the long-barreled guns (29 inch) have a five groove
pattern.
Hope you enjoy your new gun, let us know how it shoots...
Ed Arnold
NRA Life member
Zickzack7
In article <761k9b$k...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, carl...sten@earthlink.net (Arne
Gustav Carlsten) writes:
<snip>
#In the case of M1898 rifles, I don't think this is anything to
#especially worry about, if the rifle is in good condition. Steyr made
#M1898s in 7mmx57 and 7.92mmx57; on the same lines, using the same
#materials. There's a _very_ slight chance that the particular rifle
#in question was in some way flawed enough that it would have failed
#with a 7.92mm proof load but passed with a 7mm proof load. But that
#strikes me as unlikely in the extreme..
Why would a rifle fail one caliber, and not the other, when both are listed as
being
equal in maximum pressure (Pre WWII DWM and RWS publications, postwar CIP
Standard)? I would think that both the 8x57IS and the 7x57 use proof
cartridges
of equal pressure.
Cordially,
Klaus
tg
accurate rifle, wouldn't trade it for anything. surprised more people dont
shoot this combo.
Ken Marsh
Arne Carlsten <a...@primenet.com> wrote:
#Gunner K98 <gunn...@aol.com> wrote:
#: I have one that is stamped, "7.62 N". The left side of the receiver says,
#: "Mauser Chileno Modelo 1895, Deutsche Waffen-und Munitionsfabriken, Berlin".
#: The stock is not numbered to the gun, but it does have an ISRAELI star-of-David
#: proofmark.
#Dunno what the mark may actually be, but it's not an Israeli proofmark.
It indicates that the stock was made by Ludwig Loewe & Co., which was
owned by patriotic German Jews, until Hitler came along. It merged with
3 other companies to become DWM in November 1896. (this per Robert W. D.
Ball's "Mauser Military Rifles of the World")
Strange but true.
Ken.
--
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