.445 SM vs. .454 Casull
Achim Nolcken Lohse
the WEB, without too much success. A couple of the four or five sites
I found (Freedom Arms is one) wouldn't save to disk in my Browser
(IE4.01) and another site had no velocity figures, so basically all I
have for current load comparisons are figures posted by Accurate Arms.
The figures were somewhat complicated by the fact that the Casull
used, had a 7.5" barrel, while the .445 had a 10" one. Since I'm not
familiar with the only powder shown for both cartridges on this site,
1680, I don't know how much that 2.5" difference would affect
velocity.
Even so, I'm struck by the closeness of the maximum velocities listed
for 300gr bullets. It hardly seems worthwhile to go out and buy a
Taurus or Ruger in .454 Casull, when I already have a 6" Dan Wesson
445 SM.
Is this impression mistaken? I had thought produced much more energy
than the .445 SM.
Achim
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please find out about rec.guns at http://doubletap.cs.umd.edu/rec.guns
Mag7stw
powders. I ran the data once in the past and the difference is nill. I have a
445 in the contender and a Dan Wesson 8". Stick with the Dan . If you want you
can always shoot 44 magnum.
Michael and Linda Brady
# Have been trying to find load data on .445 SuperMag and .454 Casull
# I'm struck by the closeness of the maximum velocities listed
# for 300gr bullets. It hardly seems worthwhile to go out and buy a
# Taurus or Ruger in .454 Casull, when I already have a 6" Dan Wesson
# 445 SM.
Achim, Yep, they sound pretty similar, except for cross section and
availability. Given bullets of similar design a .452 diameter bullet "hits
more meat" than a .429 (though such an advantage is probably pretty small if
you sock your critter in the right spot to begin with). You can buy .454
ammunition off the shelf in well stocked gun shops, while .445 is a load your
own proposition. So, you're right. If the .445 is doing right by you you
don't really "need" a .454 (and, by extension, if you're not bagging
everything you hit with the .445 the .454 isn't likely to change your luck).
Michael
Chris MacClellan
lbs less energy.
Chris
Achim Nolcken Lohse <5192...@3web.net> wrote in message
<8cg77u$30v$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu>...
> ...
Jeff A. Wiseman
5192...@3web.net (Achim Nolcken Lohse) writes:
# Have been trying to find load data on .445 SuperMag and .454 Casull on
# the WEB, without too much success. A couple of the four or five sites
# I found (Freedom Arms is one) wouldn't save to disk in my Browser
# (IE4.01) and another site had no velocity figures, so basically all I
# have for current load comparisons are figures posted by Accurate Arms.
#
# The figures were somewhat complicated by the fact that the Casull
# used, had a 7.5" barrel, while the .445 had a 10" one. Since I'm not
# familiar with the only powder shown for both cartridges on this site,
# 1680, I don't know how much that 2.5" difference would affect
# velocity.
#
# Even so, I'm struck by the closeness of the maximum velocities listed
# for 300gr bullets. It hardly seems worthwhile to go out and buy a
# Taurus or Ruger in .454 Casull, when I already have a 6" Dan Wesson
# 445 SM.
# Is this impression mistaken? I had thought produced much more energy
# than the .445 SM.
The .454 has a larger diameter but for the same weight bullet, the .445SM
has a higher sectional density. If this is significant to you it means
that accuracy at long distances can be much better than the .454.
In fact, this is one of the big selling points of the .445 SM if I am
not mistaking. If using a scoped revolver and shooting at 150 yards plus,
the .445SM appears to be a superior choice (obviously you can also shoot
.44mag and .44special ammo in it as well). For closer in shooting for
quick knock down, the .454 MIGHT have an edge but with careful selection
of bullet type, I get the impression that even this advantage may be lost.
As a result, the only significant difference is the availability and
power factor of factory loads (probably insignificant if you handload)
and how you feel about what is essentially a "start up" company producing
these materials.
Dan Wesson has their own Ballistician who does all of the load development
for them right now. His name is D. J. Bushman. He lives in Oklahoma and
his phone number is 580-362-1003. I've discussed .44 mag loads with him
and he really knows his stuff. He's worked up .445SM loads using Hogden's
new "Li'l Gun" powder where he is pushing 1992 f.p.s. using 180 grain
bullets. Furthermore, these are temperature stable loads (apparently he
will stick a box of these in his freezer and also but a box in his oven
let them set for a while, and then go shoot them to determine & calculate
standard deviation against "normal" temperatures).
One of the most interesting things that he told me was about the rated
velocities of the factory loads provided by Dan Wesson. He says that they
are very enemic and that the DW .445SM revolvers can safely handle much
more powerful loads that in many cases can exceed the power factor of
the factory .454 loads. Also, since only Dan Wesson makes .445SM revolvers,
they shouldn't need to download their factory rounds 15-25% to make them
"safe" from a leagal content. He feels that by doing so, they are hiding
some of the best marketing information on this revolver and as a result
are hurting their sales (i.e., the .445SM appears to be significantly
less powerful than the .454 where in fact it could be an equivalent).
BTW, his testing is all done on the "new series" revolvers which have
better metalurgy and tolerances than the original series (i.e., older
than 4 years old). For example, some of the old series tolerances
around the barrel fitting and threads was something like 16 thousands
of an inch. The new series are 6-7. The older units may not take as much
pressure.
This guy told me about experiences he's had with detonation of low
volume loads with slow powders and an experience or two where he
accidentally exceeded the pressure rating of the brass itself (this
is something like 10% higher than the SAAMI rating for the generic
cartridge) resulting
in the brass basically liquifying and "flowing" all over the place
into the pin hole, around the rim, etc. (massive cartridge failure).
and yet the revolver handled it just fine (GREAT gun!).
Anyway, if you really need some information on .445SM loads, you might
want to give this guy a call--he really appears to know what he's talking
about through first hand experience.
BTW, I'm really impressed with the strength of these revolvers. Since the
.44mag that I have is basically their .445SM with a shortened cylinder,
it can handle .445SM pressure so unless I'm REALLY stupid in handloading
for this (e.g., triple load of .231, etc.), I am unlikely to ever have
a Kaboom that would damage the gun. At least, that is the confidence that
I have in my revolver. It's liekly as strong as a Freedom Arms but it is
a DA revolver and can be loaded with a speed loader. It's as strong (if
not more so) than a Ruger only with much better fit and virtually NO
endshake. I looked a long time to find one of these and I've not been
disappointed one iota! :-)
Anyway, hope this helps!
- Jeff
--
-----
Jeff Wiseman Alcatel USA
Jeff(DOT)Wiseman(AT)usa(DOT)alcatel(DOT)com Richardson, Texas
(972)996-7092
Achim Nolcken Lohse
wrote:
#Achim Nolcken Lohse wrote:
#
## Have been trying to find load data on .445 SuperMag and .454 Casull
#
## I'm struck by the closeness of the maximum velocities listed
## for 300gr bullets. It hardly seems worthwhile to go out and buy a
## Taurus or Ruger in .454 Casull, when I already have a 6" Dan Wesson
## 445 SM.
#
#Achim, Yep, they sound pretty similar, except for cross section and
#availability. Given bullets of similar design a .452 diameter bullet "hits
#more meat" than a .429 (though such an advantage is probably pretty small if
#you sock your critter in the right spot to begin with).
OTHO, the .429 bullet should have better external ballistics for the
same weight.
# You can buy .454
#ammunition off the shelf in well stocked gun shops, while .445 is a load your
#own proposition.
I don't feel rich enough to shoot .454 factory ammo ;^). Always load
my own anyway.
# So, you're right. If the .445 is doing right by you you
#don't really "need" a .454 (and, by extension, if you're not bagging
#everything you hit with the .445 the .454 isn't likely to change your luck).
#Michael
Haven't really shot mine enough to say. Heard some bad horror stories
out there about bad castings. Can't bag anything up here in Canada.
Big Brother won't let us take our handguns into the field. So I'll
have to head south to WA, ID or MT or west to Alaska to do any handgun
hunting.
One other factor is my perception that there's still a better
selection of .429 bullets than .451 in the heavier weights.
Achim
Achim Nolcken Lohse
<xlo...@email.msn.com> wrote:
#I found some data on the web a few months back and the 445 has around 300ft
#lbs less energy.
#
#Chris
That's the other confusing aspect. It all depends on whose data you
look at. In just the three or four manufacturer's sites showing .454
load data, I found the maximum loads for the same powder and bullet
to vary by 16%, which strikes me as a rather large margin of
disagreement.
Strangely, the most conservative maximums were those I found at the
Freedom Arms site, even though they list them as only for use in their
own revolvers (if I remember correctly - this was one of the sites
where I couldn't save the page as an html file or a graphic image).
I believe FA showed a maximum load of 32gr of H110 with a 300gr
bullet, while another site showed 37gr as max.
Achim Nolcken Lohse
#Don't know about the web but Thompson Center has load data on the 445 for all
#powders. I ran the data once in the past and the difference is nill. I have a
#445 in the contender and a Dan Wesson 8". Stick with the Dan . If you want you
#can always shoot 44 magnum.
Looked for a Thompson Centre website, but no luck. Do you have a URL
for it?
Achim Nolcken Lohse
Wiseman) wrote:
#Dan Wesson has their own Ballistician who does all of the load development
#for them right now. His name is D. J. Bushman. He lives in Oklahoma and
#his phone number is 580-362-1003. I've discussed .44 mag loads with him
#and he really knows his stuff. He's worked up .445SM loads using Hogden's
#new "Li'l Gun" powder where he is pushing 1992 f.p.s. using 180 grain
#bullets. Furthermore, these are temperature stable loads (apparently he
#will stick a box of these in his freezer and also but a box in his oven
#let them set for a while, and then go shoot them to determine & calculate
#standard deviation against "normal" temperatures).
#
Are these load available on-line for download? If not, do you have an
e-mail address or FAX number for him?
#One of the most interesting things that he told me was about the rated
#velocities of the factory loads provided by Dan Wesson. He says that they
#are very enemic and that the DW .445SM revolvers can safely handle much
#more powerful loads that in many cases can exceed the power factor of
#the factory .454 loads. Also, since only Dan Wesson makes .445SM revolvers,
#they shouldn't need to download their factory rounds 15-25% to make them
#"safe" from a leagal content. He feels that by doing so, they are hiding
#some of the best marketing information on this revolver and as a result
#are hurting their sales (i.e., the .445SM appears to be significantly
#less powerful than the .454 where in fact it could be an equivalent).
#
#BTW, his testing is all done on the "new series" revolvers which have
#better metalurgy and tolerances than the original series (i.e., older
#than 4 years old). For example, some of the old series tolerances
#around the barrel fitting and threads was something like 16 thousands
#of an inch. The new series are 6-7. The older units may not take as much
#pressure.
Maybe that's why Dan Wesson loads down its factory ammo. I've got one
of the early models myself. A stainless HV model of '93 vintage.
#
#Anyway, if you really need some information on .445SM loads, you might
#want to give this guy a call--he really appears to know what he's talking
#about through first hand experience.
#
Will try to contact him. Thanks.
Achim
grantcunningham
#
# Don't know about the web but Thompson Center has load data on the 445 for all
# powders. I ran the data once in the past and the difference is nill. I have a
# 445 in the contender and a Dan Wesson 8". Stick with the Dan . If you want you
# can always shoot 44 magnum.
Went to the TC website, couldn't find any load data anywhere. Could you
give the actual URL to the reloading data page, or tell me at least how
you found it?!?
--
-=[ grant ]=-
REPLY-TO: gra...@bigfoot.com
"Where there are no men, strive to be a man" -- Pirke Avoth
fl...@alaska.net
# The .454 has a larger diameter but for the same weight bullet, the .445SM
# has a higher sectional density. If this is significant to you it means
# that accuracy at long distances can be much better than the .454.
This sounds like good theory, but where it counts ( on the silhouette
range for instance ), my DW .45 Colt firing 300-grain bullets shot
right along side the guys shooting the DW .445s. Accuracy was not an
issue at 200 meters - both shot equally well. Quality of ammunition
makes more difference.
Knowing the outstanding accuracy of the FA revolvers on the 200 meter
rams, I cannot see where the .445 has an practical field advantage
over the .454. On the other hand, the .445 is a very fine cartridge
and deserves more attention. Personally I'll stick to my .45LCs, but
I won't try to talk another shooter out of a .445 if he wants one.
Jay T