<<< The Enfield Scout Rifle: Completed !! >>>
Josh Grosse
A Scout rifle is not a brand or a trademark. The name was coined by
Jeff Cooper, and is, as I recall, a bolt-action rifle which has these
main attributes:
o Cartridge available world-wide
o Overall length 1 meter or less
o Overall weight 3 kilos or less
o Forward mounted Intermediate Eye Relief scope
o Sling designed to support off-hand shooting
Last November, in Cooper's Commentaries, Jeff Cooper suggested that
the readily available Enfield battle rifles, SMLEs and No 4s, might be
turned into good inexpensive Scouts.
About that same time, I had the opportunity to hold a Gunsite built
Scout rifle, and fell in love with the both-eyes-open quick
acquisition optics.
There was an epiphany. I couldn't afford a Gunsite built Scout -- but
I *could* afford to build up something on an inexpensive surplus
action!
I started in December, buying an Enfield No 4 Mk. 1 from SOG, and a
2-3/4X Burris Scoutscope from my local dealer.
In January and February, my smith checked the rifle for function and
headspace, then went hunting for a scope mount that could be affixed
to the barrel ahead of the receiver.
In March, I acquired a Zytel stock -- the Enfield was a Longbranch
Arsenal 1943 No 4 Mk 1*, and in terrific shape -- but the wood was
worthless.
This month, my smith was able to find and custom-fit a scope mount to
the rifle, and he completed the mounting, barrel cutting (now 20"),
bedding, and boresighting. I asked the smith to leave the barrel this
long due to r.g. posts and e-mail warning me not to go shorter than
18" if I wanted any accuracy.
There's a *little* left to do: acquire a Ching Sling from Galco, affix
a new front sight -- but both of these can wait.
I picked up the rifle yesterday afternoon, and ran about 15 rounds
through it. It is slightly too long, and about a pound too heavy, but
boy-oh-boy, does it shoot sweetly! I've got a crisp, 3-lb trigger
pull, a monte-carlo stock, and one incredibly fast sight picture
acquisition. I also have 10 round capacity, and lots of stripper
clips. This was one terrific bargain!
I only had a few minutes available for testing on my club's 100 yard
range, so I haven't completed sighting in, nor have I tested for
5-shot group size. However, it hits where it's aimed.
Note to those thinking of doing this: My smith ended up using a
Burris mount, but it required some custom work to fit it to the
barrel's curvature.
--------------------------------------------------------
Josh Grosse jd...@juts.ccc.amdahl.com
Amdahl Corp. joshua...@amail.amdahl.com
Southfield, Michigan 810-358-4440
"Any opinions expressed above are mine and do not
necessarily represent the opinions or policies of
Amdahl Corporation."
jay eads
Your ingenuity is commended. What a great project. I am an adherent
to the Scout concept and own a Gunsite Scout Rifle. It is a beautiful
rifle, but being a man of champagne taste and beer budget am looking
for an alternative rifle that I am less concerned about taking into
the woods. I have considered building Scouts on the SKS
para(caliber), Savage 99(action is just too long), Mauser
FR8(questions about durability for .308). Now the Ishapore .308's
may provide a suitable military alternative action for a economic
Scout. Is your rilfle in the original .303 caliber? If and when the
Britiish release the No. 4's they converted to .308, there would be no
question as to a perfect action for Scout conversion piece. John if
there is any other information you could share with us on the
conversion, or your gunsmith's address, I would appreciate it.
Thanks. Jay.
Joe Chew
#have considered building Scouts on the SKS para; [rejected for] (caliber)
I'd be more concerned with its power (gives up a lot of foot-pounds
to the rifles the foot-pounders used to carry) than availability.
How ubiquitous is .308/7.62x51 worldwide, anyway? I'd guess that
7.62x39 might be at least as common, considering that the other
side in the Cold War and so many proxy wars spent several decades
providing much of the world with it... Also hard to imagine a
Cooperite getting all excited about its accuracy potential and
trigger feel, both of which I'd describe as "great for making 'em
keep their heads down until either your artillery or theirs can
settle the matter; not so hot at firing for effect much past 100 m."
That having been said, it's an awfully handy little carbine.
Now for the heresy department: Unless you're either a truly globe-
trotting sportsman or a mercenary, is caliber ubiquity really that
important? I could probly feed a .30-06 or .303 anywhere I'm likely
to do any shooting, maybe even 8x57 or 7.62x54R... Moisin-Nagant
Scoutavanovich, anybody?
--Joe
Doug Owen
: I picked up the rifle yesterday afternoon, and ran about 15 rounds
: through it. It is slightly too long, and about a pound too heavy, but
: boy-oh-boy, does it shoot sweetly! I've got a crisp, 3-lb trigger
: pull, a monte-carlo stock, and one incredibly fast sight picture
: acquisition. I also have 10 round capacity, and lots of stripper
: clips. This was one terrific bargain!
Excellent! What was the total cost, if I may ask? What was the final
(dry) weight and OAL?
: Note to those thinking of doing this: My smith ended up using a
: Burris mount, but it required some custom work to fit it to the
: barrel's curvature.
Did you investigate using the sight base on the No. 1 mk III? This seems
a "natural" for Scout Scope type mounts. Further the barrel and action
on these guns is lighter than the No. 4, which should help weight wise.
Doug Owen
Frostyice
I see where Middlecoast sells .303 British Scout rifles and components for
.308 conversions of the No. 4 Enfield. I found it at:
http://www.avalon.net/~middlecoast
in their Shooter's Report Quarterly under advertisers.
Josh Grosse
I'm responding to several followup postings in this one article.
Jay Eads wrote:
# Your ingenuity is commended. What a great project. I am an
adherent
# to the Scout concept and own a Gunsite Scout Rifle. It is a
beautiful
# rifle...
Thanks for your kind words. And yes, indeed, the Gunsite built Scouts
are terrific. My local dealer owns two of 'em, now, in .308 and in
223 (the "baby scout").
#but being a man of champagne taste and beer budget am looking
# for an alternative rifle that I am less concerned about taking into
# the woods. I have considered building Scouts on the SKS
# para(caliber), Savage 99(action is just too long), Mauser
# FR8(questions about durability for .308). Now the Ishapore .308's
# may provide a suitable military alternative action for a economic
# Scout. Is your rilfle in the original .303 caliber? If and when
the
# Britiish release the No. 4's they converted to .308, there would be
no
# question as to a perfect action for Scout conversion piece. John if
# there is any other information you could share with us on the
# conversion, or your gunsmith's address, I would appreciate it.
# Thanks. Jay.
My rifle is a Longbranch No 4 Mk 1*, built in 1943, and still has the
original .303 Brit chamber and 2-grooved rifled barrel. It was, as
Ben Samsing of Enfield FAQ fame will tell you, more a matter of luck
than anything else. I have no plans or intentions to ever convert to
308 -- that would require too many changes to the firearm (barrel,
'zine, ejector, extractor, etc.). Plus, I feel .303 is a perfectly
adequate cartridge. The Hornady "Light Magnum" ammunition matches
308 performance, if you ever desire the extra 125 fps.
I just got off the phone with my smith. He did this for me as a
one-off, and charged me a "family" price. He *might* be willing to do
this on a somewhat regular basis, he said, though his service charges
would be somewhat higher.
If you'd like me to put you in contact with him directly, just send me
e-mail.
Fros...@aol.com wrote:
# I see where Middlecoast sells .303 British Scout rifles and
components for
# ..308 conversions of the No. 4 Enfield. I found it at:
#
# http://www.avalon.net/~middlecoast
#
# in their Shooter's Report Quarterly under advertisers.
I looked at the ad. These "scouts" are headspace tightened, and
shortened. No optics or mount systems. They might make good bases
upon which Scouts could be built, though.
Doug Owen wrote:
# Excellent! What was the total cost, if I may ask? What was the
final
# (dry) weight and OAL?
I'm not finished with total cost, 'cause I still don't have a Ching
Sling, nor have I picked up my .303 dies, yet.
It came to about $530, including rifle, optics, mount, stock, and
smith work at discount, shipping charges for stuff, and even FFL fees.
I just e-mailed someone about it a few minutes and had calculated
$480, but forgot to add in $50 for the rings and base.
# Did you investigate using the sight base on the No. 1 mk III? This
seems
# a "natural" for Scout Scope type mounts. Further the barrel and
action
# on these guns is lighter than the No. 4, which should help weight
wise.
After -- after I'd acquired the rifle, and my smith and I were looking
at it, I slapped myself on the forehead.
Yes, it would indeed make at least *one* of the mount points perhaps a
little easier.
However:
The No 4 Mk 1 does have a flat spot on the barrel just where it joins
the barrel. We couldn't use this, as the spot wasn't square, and
couldn't easily be shimmed.
One's luck with No 4s, it seems, may be a trifle better than with the
No 1s, considering age and use. I may have been lucky, but I may have
been working with better percentages.
-Josh-
Jerome Bigge
In article <4m6l28$c...@xring.cs.umd.edu>,
jtc...@netcom.com (Joe Chew) wrote:
##have considered building Scouts on the SKS para; [rejected for]
(caliber)
#
#I'd be more concerned with its power (gives up a lot of foot-pounds
#to the rifles the foot-pounders used to carry) than availability.
#
#How ubiquitous is .308/7.62x51 worldwide, anyway? I'd guess that
#7.62x39 might be at least as common, considering that the other
#side in the Cold War and so many proxy wars spent several decades
#providing much of the world with it... Also hard to imagine a
#Cooperite getting all excited about its accuracy potential and
#trigger feel, both of which I'd describe as "great for making 'em
#keep their heads down until either your artillery or theirs can
#settle the matter; not so hot at firing for effect much past 100 m."
#
#That having been said, it's an awfully handy little carbine.
#
#Now for the heresy department: Unless you're either a truly globe-
#trotting sportsman or a mercenary, is caliber ubiquity really that
#important? I could probly feed a .30-06 or .303 anywhere I'm likely
#to do any shooting, maybe even 8x57 or 7.62x54R... Moisin-Nagant
#Scoutavanovich, anybody?
#
#--Joe
#
Actually the Mosisin-Nagant carbines can be made up into pretty light
weight sporters. The bolt action isn't as "easy to use" as Mauser's,
but it certainly does work. The cartridge is midway between a .308
and a .30-06 in power, although anything but military surplus chorate
primed ammo is hard to find. And I like the "scout" concept of
putting the scope ahead of the action. Makes working the bolt much
easier than where you have a low mounted scope. Other options would
be the short SKS (7.62x39 is extremely common), but I don't think it
would be as light weight for the power as the old Russian carbine is.
Another problem with the Russian is the lack of a practical safety.
The "safety" consists of pulling back the cocking piece further than
usual (takes effort to do, hard if your hands are wet or greasy), and
then rotating it counterclockwise so that it locks against the back of
the action. And to take the rifle off safe, you once again have to
pull back the cocking piece, and then turn the thing clockwise. Not
really what I'd call a "modern" action by any means as the design
dates back to 1891. It's usable, but there are better choices.
Jerome Bigge (jbi...@vixa.voyager.net)
"GUN CONTROL": THE "GATEWAY" TO TYRANNY?
*****************************************
My Warlady novels are available by email.
(they are "zipped" and about 300K each)
A total of 9 are available to read...
Ross Bench
In article <4mbcfc$l...@xring.cs.umd.edu>,
Josh Grosse <jd...@juts.ccc.amdahl.com> wrote:
#
#I'm responding to several followup postings in this one article.
#
#Jay Eads wrote:
#
## Your ingenuity is commended. What a great project. I am an
#adherent
## to the Scout concept and own a Gunsite Scout Rifle. It is a
#beautiful
## rifle...
#
#Thanks for your kind words. And yes, indeed, the Gunsite built Scouts
#are terrific. My local dealer owns two of 'em, now, in .308 and in
#223 (the "baby scout").
I recently shot an Enfield that will make some folk's hair stand on end...
Enfield action chambered in .223, using an M-16 barrel bedded to a plastic
stock...
Didn't feed as well as it could have, but it was damn accurate...
Timothy P. Banse
The purists, the strict constructionists will tell you a Scout
Rifle, as per Jeff Cooper definition, must be:
1. A weight of 6 1/2 pounds or lighter
2. Caliber .308 Winchester
3. Optical sight mounted ahead of receiver.
4. Barrel length of 18 inches (did I get that correct)
and so on.
Be that as it may, I recently saw a cool Scout rifle founded
upon a No.4 Mk II, chambered in .308. It's barrel was a
1919A4 barrel cut off at the chamber, threaded and tapered to fit the
Enfield. The scope was mounted above the bolt.
I liked it. May build on myself.
Dave Croyle
In article <4mrdn7$j...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, Josh Grosse
<jd...@juts.ccc.amdahl.com> wrote:
# ...I haven't
# weighed my restocked and cut down NO 4, but I have held it along side
# a standard No 4, and it is significantly lighter, I would think in the
# 7 lb range. The synthetic stock -- a Cooper specification -- along
# with no "top" on the foreend helps dramatically in the weight
# department.
My Ishapore Scout that I am experimenting with weighs in at around 7.5
lb (bathroom scale so accuracy very debatable!) That's without scope or
sling, with unloaded magazine attached. Barrel length is 19" and stock is
one of these godawful Zytel things which seems *much* heavier than wood in
a simailar configuration would weigh. Still, much better than the original
stuff.
# # 3. Optical sight mounted ahead of receiver.
# To me, this is the KEY feature of a scout rifle.... Everything else, I
feel, is "nice to have."
Personally, I think that's going too far. The forward-mounted scopes on
German 98k's in WWII didn't make them "scouts"! :)
I'm going to be playing with an Aimpoint 5000 on mine tomorrow. I don't
think it's the best idea but I won't know for sure until I try. We'll see
what happens.
# BTW, the specification also calls for iron sights as a backup. My
# Enfield doesn't have iron sights as backup yet, as I haven't installed
# a new front sight on the cut down barrel.
Same here, although I have yet to attach the flip-up rear ghost ring I
have as well.
# (For fabricators, Cooper recommends a pull no greater than 12.5
# inches. In my case, I just used the Zytel ATA stock that everyone is
# now selling.)
You too eh? The quality on these things are pretty embarrassing. Still,
mine works so far- after the factory replaced the totally warped fore-end.
Next, I have to do something about that abomination of a butt-pad. (Pad
being the wrong word, but I don't know what else to call the thing!)
Hopefully I can get the rear of the butt shortened slightly and then have
a Pachmayr Decellerator pad put on.
12.5" pull may be a bit too short for me- you really don't want to give
up so much length that you get whacked in the nose when working the bolt.
That will vary with the individual, of course.
# When I first proposed doing this back in December, I
# got a number of responses suggesting that the original barrels not be
# cut too short, as accuracy suffers with 16.5" barrels. I left mine at
# 20", and am getting about 2 MOA at 100 yards, using commercial grade
# ammunition.
I think 18-19" is just right, but that's just my two cents. If you're
doing well with loads you like I would be happy with it like you are.
# I ordered one of Eric Ching's slings from Galco; it should
# arrive by the end of this week.
Yeah, I need to get one too.
BTW, this "Ishapore Scout" project of mine is a long-term experiment to
try different options and to see how much money, time and effort a "cheap"
scout rifle takes, as well as to see how good of an end-product I can
reasonably end up with. Eventually, when my "real" scout (.308 conversion
#4 MkII made into a scout by Brent Clifton- expensive and probably won't
be here for another year at least!) arrives I'll compare the two side by
side and see what I have.
Also Josh, if you're here in the South Bay (I noticed the Amdahl address
so could be) I'd like to take a look at your Enfield sometime when you're
at the range. Let me know if that would be ok.
Dave
--
-- Dave Croyle --
LGPD Disaster Aid Response Team NRA Life/SATF Charter Founder
j...@taligent.com (work) KE6QKZ croy...@best.com (home)
TSBench1
Ummm...appears the Colonel has re-invented the Enfield #5, and added a
scope.
Not exactly the highest concept idea ever to come down the pike.
Regards,
TSBench
Josh Grosse
TSBench wrote:
# Ummm...appears the Colonel has re-invented the Enfield #5, and added a
# scope.
#
# Not exactly the highest concept idea ever to come down the pike.
Not quite. Cooper defined a number of characteristics for a general purpose, lightweight carbine. He coined a term, "scout rifle", to describe it.
It includes a number of operational characteristics, of which the #5 had only a few.
What Cooper actually said, about the Enfield rifes, was:
"Have you noticed in recent advertisements that the excellent
Enfield No. 4 battle rifle is now available in the larger
stores for $70 a crack! This is a very superior utility
weapon, and you should snap it up while it lasts. If you have
a safe place to store your weapons you ought to buy at least
two of these pieces, together with a satisfactory supply of
ammunition. As it comes out of the box, the piece will do
("for government work"), and if you want to play around with
customizing it, you can turn it into a pretty
nice approximation of a Scout. Take heed!"
I took this comment to heart, and built a "nice approximation of a
Scout" on a Longbranch No 4 Mk 1*.
Incidentally, I've since discovered:
1) The Ching sling's 3-point attachments fit the ATA-stocked
Enfield's. Two studs come on the stock, and the receiver loop
makes the third.
2) Sierra's 174gr HPBT MatchKing provides significant
reductions in group size at 100 yards, and are *much* better
than even expensive commercial hunting loads. I'll try them
at longer distances sometime this summer.
3) **** DON'T hang stripper clips to your jeans's pockets by
an outside round. The rims will change position, and you'll
end up with failure to feed jams. ****
(So much for my timed match this past Sunday.)
Michael Emery Stora
Tim,
I believe that Col. Cooper's exact criteria are 3.5kg (7.7lb) or lighter
with under 7lb loaded optimal, long eye relief scope mounted
"scout style", 1 meter or less overall length. .308 caliber and
an 18.5" barrel. Also, to be a total purist, it should have a short action.
Let us not forget backup sightspreferably of the ghost-ring variety.
The .308 caliber requirement is due to the wordwide universality of that
chambering (or the very close 7.62mm NATO). Anything close but not quite
close to these criteria, Cooper calls a psydo-scout. I'd call one in
.30-06 chambering a domesti-scout since that is the "universal cartrage"
for those of us who do not go abroad frequently.
I am currently working on a M-98 Mauser based scout in .30-06 with
an aftermarket trigger and a polished action. It makes length and may
come close to making weight due largely to the very light Butler Creek
stock. I could definately make weight with a custom bedded fiberglass
stock, but I'm going with the lightest quality drop-in I could find.
I'm using a new imported stepped barrel and mounting the scope on a
TC-Contender mount which fits the second step of the barrel like it
belonges there. I'll let eveyone know how it goes when I am done as I'm
sure many people will want to know.
Mike
Timothy P. Banse (middl...@avalon.net)
wrote: : The purists, the strict constructionists will tell you a Scout
: Rifle, as per Jeff Cooper definition, must be:
: 1. A weight of 6 1/2 pounds or lighter
: 2. Caliber .308 Winchester
: 3. Optical sight mounted ahead of receiver.
: 4. Barrel length of 18 inches (did I get that correct)
K. Karcich
In <4nfs5r$3...@xring.cs.umd.edu> st...@grove.ufl.edu (Michael Emery Stora) writes:
#I am currently working on a M-98 Mauser based scout in .30-06 with
#an aftermarket trigger and a polished action. It makes length and may
#come close to making weight due largely to the very light Butler Creek
#stock. I could definately make weight with a custom bedded fiberglass
#stock, but I'm going with the lightest quality drop-in I could find.
#I'm using a new imported stepped barrel and mounting the scope on a
#TC-Contender mount which fits the second step of the barrel like it
#belonges there. I'll let eveyone know how it goes when I am done as I'm
#sure many people will want to know.
Warne makes a excellent 1 piece base on the tc hole pattern that works with
there QD rings. This base is machined steel which means that you can sweat
the base to the barrel as well as screw it on. This could be useful for a
scout used in heavy duty situations.
regards, Ken Karcich
#Mike
#Timothy P. Banse (middl...@avalon.net)
#wrote: : The purists, the strict constructionists will tell you a Scout
#: Rifle, as per Jeff Cooper definition, must be:
#: 1. A weight of 6 1/2 pounds or lighter
#: 2. Caliber .308 Winchester
#: 3. Optical sight mounted ahead of receiver.
#: 4. Barrel length of 18 inches (did I get that correct)
#: and so on.
#: Be that as it may, I recently saw a cool Scout rifle founded
#: upon a No.4 Mk II, chambered in .308. It's barrel was a
#: 1919A4 barrel cut off at the chamber, threaded and tapered to fit the
#: Enfield. The scope was mounted above the bolt.
#: I liked it. May build on myself.
Edmund H. Rowe
(Discussion on scout specs deleted)
Just wanted to mention my idea of a UTILITY rifle:
-Repectable caliber for any forseeable usage
-knock-around resistant useable sights
-Costs less than $120
-Easily re-obtainable in case of theft
(i.e. not a rare rifle)
So, my utility rifle is an unmodified Lee-Enfield
#4 Mark I in .303 Brit.
(no, not an unissued one, that one is in the gun safe)
I'm not knocking the Scout concept, just using
my $$ for the pricey rifles in my collection
(High power, anyone?)
The .303 #4 Mark I (and II, et al) have good GI
sights, a decent magazine capacity, some good
THUMP in the .303, and if it gets lost or
stolen I can get another fairly easily.
Any other utility rifles out there?
Edmund Rowe
Sander Wissing
On 17 May 1996 21:53:04 -0400, er...@robins.af.mil (Edmund H. Rowe)
wrote:
#Just wanted to mention my idea of a UTILITY rifle:
#
#-Repectable caliber for any forseeable usage
#-knock-around resistant useable sights
#-Costs less than $120
#-Easily re-obtainable in case of theft
#(i.e. not a rare rifle)
{Stuff deleted}
#Any other utility rifles out there?
Yes, but it shouldn't surprise you too much,
A Lee Enfield N04 Mk1*.
Cheers
Sander