questions about cap and ball guns
Jack-...@webtv.net
distributed by navy arms it is brass framed with a long octagonal barrel
it is nicely made though the action is stiff I think it will smooth up
with use the questions i have are as follows:
Was $139 a fair price for this firearm?
I was told by the dealer that for target use I should use a filler like
corn meal or cream of wheat but didn't say how much I should use so I
need to know how to figure out how much to use?
Can I use the new black powder substitute that isn't corrosive in this
revolver?
Also any tips or tricks you may have on using and enjoying this finely
made firearm and welcome TIA
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David H. Geyer
#I just bought a remington 1858 army target revolver made in italy and
#distributed by navy arms it is brass framed with a long octagonal barrel
#it is nicely made though the action is stiff I think it will smooth up
#with use the questions i have are as follows:
#
#Was $139 a fair price for this firearm?
I havn't had good luck with Navy Arms, personally. I just ordered a
'58 Remington repro from Cabela's for $134.99. It is steel framed,
which is what the originals were, and is stronger. The link below will
take you right to the gun. It is made by Pietta, with whom I have had
better luck. Others, however, will tell differently I am sure. Buying
any of these Italian repros is a bit hit or miss. Any problems tend to
be cosmetic, or minor, however. I do think $139.00 is a bit much for a
brass framed revolver, though.
Dixie has a good selection of '58 Remingtons, including Navy Arms,
Pietta, and Uberti. One of their techs once told me that Pietta is the
pick of the litter. I didn't believe him at the time, as Uberti has a
better reputation, but now I do based on my own experience.
If course, what is done is done, and you might as well enjoy what you
have, and I don't mean to rain on your parade.
http://www.cabelas.com/texis/scripts/store/+/CatalogDisplay/displayPOD/CabFALL1998/CabFALL1998AAAOAC/XA708F
#
#I was told by the dealer that for target use I should use a filler like
#corn meal or cream of wheat but didn't say how much I should use so I
#need to know how to figure out how much to use?
#
A good starting load for the '58 Remington is 20 grains of black
powder, behind a .451 round ball. This translates to 16 grains of
Pyrodex. Or, set your measure for 20 grains of black, and use the
same volume for Pyrodex, which is a bit lighter per volume. A .38
Special case filed back about 1/8" is about the right charge to start
with. The volume of the chamber on these guns is designed to be filled
with FFF black powder (minus the space for the ball). You can't blow
one up with black powder or Pyrodex without obstructing the bore or
some other serious mistake. The reduced charge is a bit more accurate
usually. Also, full charges will shoot a brass framed revolver loose
after a while. Not so with a steel framed one. When shooting a reduced
load, you can just seat the ball way down in the chamber and omit the
filler. Some say this is not as accurate. What you _NEVER_ do is leave
an air space between the charge and the ball.
If you use corn meal, it has some compressability, so the exact amount
you use is not critical. I fill the chamber within 1/8" or so of the
front with corn meal, and seat the ball a bit below the chamber
mouth, but not much. This compresses the corn meal a bit, which is
not a bad thing. Cream of wheat does not compress, so you have to get
the amount of filler just right, which is why I don't use it.
It's a good idea to put some lubricant in front of the balls. You can
get dozens of ideas of what to use, all the way from Crisco to lots
of proprietary products. I use hand cream. Keeps the fouling quite
soft. This practice also helps keep any hot gasses from igniting an
adjacent chamber, so it makes shooting safer as well.
#Can I use the new black powder substitute that isn't corrosive in this
#revolver?
#
Yes. Pyrodex is used volume for volume. It fouls a bit less, but the
fouling is equally corrosive. It is safer, as it is a bit harder to
ignite. However, if the caps are too tight on the nipple you may get
unreliable ignition. I feel better about keeping it around the house,
so that's what I use. I do think Pyrodex fouling interferes less with
accurate shooting, particularly in cold weather.
I have not tried the newer black powder substitutes and know nothing
about them. They are not available here.
#Also any tips or tricks you may have on using and enjoying this finely
#made firearm and welcome TIA
#
Clean it right after you shoot it. The '58 Remington is the easiest
design to clean (of the C&B revolvers). Pull out the cylinder, pull
off the grips, pull off the trigger guard, and throw the whole thing
in the kitchen sink and clean it with hot soapy water. Dry it in the
oven at about 225F to drive out all the water. Oil it up good, and
it's set to go. The brass will get stained from this, but it probably
will anyway.
When you are loading, cap last. Don't pull a loaded and capped
cylinder out of the gun, as it could fire if it was dropped and landed
on a cap. It's real easy to develop bad habits when loading, like
pointing the gun around. Learn from the start, pointed downrange or
straight up. It can be done.
Most of the new '58 Remingtons have a very high front sight, and will
shoot low for that reason. You can live with it, shoot high, or file
it down slowly. The sights on the originals were not as high. I think
they do it so the gun can be sighted in. The Colt repros have little
bitty beads for front sights and shoot way up in the air. If you want
one of those to shoot where it looks, you have to replace the front
sight completely.
These guns are a lot of fun to shoot. Let me know if there is anything
else you need to know.
Dave Geyer
Alex Clayton
>wrote:
I just bought a remington 1858 army target revolver made in italy and
distributed by navy arms it is brass framed with a long octagonal barrel
it is nicely made though the action is stiff I think it will smooth up
with use the questions i have are as follows:
Was $139 a fair price for this firearm?
I was told by the dealer that for target use I should use a filler like
corn meal or cream of wheat but didn't say how much I should use so I
need to know how to figure out how much to use?
Can I use the new black powder substitute that isn't corrosive in this
revolver?
Also any tips or tricks you may have on using and enjoying this finely
made firearm and welcome TIA
Jack-...@webtv.net
>wrote:
Can you use an iron pot and a charcoal grill to melt the pure lead to
cast round balls? I know this is kind of archaic but don't have the
spare cash for a proper melting pot i won't be casting for perfection
just for plinking and to learn to use my cap and ball revolver. TIA
I have cast with an iron pot and a stove. I suppose you could use
charcoal but it would be a pain. You can get a Lee electric pot for
around $30 which would be a much better way to go.
As for the price that sounds about right for what you bought.
As for the filler If you use 20 grs of black powder which is a target
light load for a 44 caliber, you can add a little filler over the top
of the powder. Enough so you can still seat the ball. When I was
shooting these I tried some light loads like this with out filler and it
worked fine. You need to make sure the ball or bullet is seated
completely against the powder charge.
The brass frame revolvers will shoot loose and get out of time if you
feed it a steady diet of heavy loads.
If you decide you like shooting them save some money and buy a Ruger
when you can.
The black powder substitutes work ok but unless they have improved
them, they do not perform quite as well in these guns as black powder.
It is easier to find in stores though and can even be ordered by UPS.
#Delusions are often functional. A mother's opinions
#about her children, keep her from drowning them
#at birth.
#Lazarus Long
Charles Rice
Jack-...@webtv.net wrote in message <9840tc$jcj$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu>...
#I just bought a remington 1858 army target revolver
#Was $139 a fair price for this firearm?
Sounds OK to me
#I was told by the dealer that for target use I should use a filler like
#corn meal or cream of wheat but didn't say how much I should use so I
#need to know how to figure out how much to use?
Do not have to, but if you load a less that full charge, just fill to the
normal level with the meal
#Can I use the new black powder substitute that isn't corrosive in this
#revolver?
Yes, but it is not as fun as the real stuff, and some are just as
hydroscopic.
#Also any tips or tricks you may have on using
CLEAN IT - ALL OF IT after use. Put some lube in front of the bullet after
you load. I use a mix of Crisco and parafin.
Chris Evans
<Jack-...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:9840tc$jcj$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu...
# I just bought a remington 1858 army target revolver made in italy and
# distributed by navy arms it is brass framed with a long octagonal barrel
# it is nicely made though the action is stiff I think it will smooth up
# with use the questions i have are as follows:
#
# Was $139 a fair price for this firearm?
That's less than half what it would cost here in the UK! :-(
# I was told by the dealer that for target use I should use a filler like
# corn meal or cream of wheat but didn't say how much I should use so I
# need to know how to figure out how much to use?
Sound advice. Semolina is polular here as a filler and I have seen soap
powder used too - any inert powder would do I guess. You need to experiment
to find the ideal load for your barrel /ball combination. Use a reduced
powder charge and add sufficient filler so that the ball will seat, with
moderate charge compression, just below the mouth of the chamber. If the
ball is seated well down the chamber, it will be travelling fast when it
enters the forcing cone or leed in the barrel and this can distort the ball
or cause it to strip in the rifling. By using filler the ball will have
less distance (and time) to accelerate before leaving the chamber, allowing
it to enter the leed smoothly and then accellerate in the barrel. You
didn't say what calibre you have, but assuming .44 cal, try starting at
around 15 grains of goex, sufficient filler as described, and work up in 1
grain steps until you achieve the best group size. Most target shooters
find the best charge is somewhere 18 - 25 grains for 20 yard target
shooting. Reduce the filler as you increase the charge to keep the ball
just below the chamber mouth. Consistency of seating pressure and seating
depth is important for accuracy - you just have to develop a feel for it.
Also, you might try different size balls, even two apparently identical guns
seem to differ in their feeding needs. If you are using cast balls, load
them with the sprue to the front.
# Can I use the new black powder substitute that isn't corrosive in this
# revolver?
Yes, but it is still corrosive and you must still clean promptly after use
(I am pretty sure that Pyrodex is more corrosive than BP). I find that with
Pyrodex, best accuracy seems to need more charge than with a fast BP such as
Goex or Swiss, and some people hold that a maximum charge does the trick
best with Pyrodex. Also, Pyrodex seems to need a hotter percussion cap for
reliable ignition - dunno why. I haven't tried any other BP substitutes and
these comments may not apply to them.
# Also any tips or tricks you may have on using and enjoying this finely
# made firearm and welcome TIA
Practice, practice, experiment, keep notes so you will know what works best
for you - it's a very personal thing. IMHO BP gives more consistency and is
less critical of loading variations than is Pyrodex, but others disagree,
and anyway BP is not practical (or very safe either) on indoor ranges. One
thing to watch - don't charge the chamber from a powder flask - a friend of
mine lost the tip of his middle finger that way when the flask blew up in
his hand. In international competitions charging from a flask is not
allowed - most shooters use the flask to charge a plastic or glass vial, and
use that to charge the chamber - it is OK to load filler from a flask since
there is no explosion hazard. For experimental purposes it is better to
pre-weigh a set of charges and corresponding fillers at home into vials for
use on the range. When you have figured out what charge/filler combination
works best for you, then you can adjust your flask spout to deliver that
charge and you're set (it is easy to cut/file the spout down to reduce the
charge, but impossible to lengthen it to increase the charge, unless you
invest in an adjustable spout but these are not popular as they can change
their setting over time).
If you are using BP, don't forget to put some grease on top of the ball
after loading. This will seal the chamber against sparks from an adjacent
chamber, which could lead to a ring fire where neighbouring cylinders ignite
in sympathy (not usually a big deal but a little disconcerting), and it will
lubricate the ball and soften the barrel fouling for the next shot. Plain
Lithium grease (as used on auto chassis bearings) seems to work fine and is
way cheaper than the specialist shooting lubes. If using BP substitute on
an indoor range then grease is unnecessary ( and makes a mess of the range)
but a lubricated felt wad (over the filler and under the ball) helps to
remove fouling.
Enjoy :-)
Chris
CRCooper
#distributed by navy arms it is brass framed with a long octagonal barrel
#Was $139 a fair price for this firearm?
#Can I use the new black powder substitute that isn't corrosive in this
#revolver?
Price - a little high - depending on what Italian mfg. made the gun.
The following information would be for a .44 Cal. 1858 Remington Cap and Ball
pistol.
Blackpowder and Pyrodex are both corrosive. A non-corrosive substitute would be
Clean Shot (from Colorado) or Clear Shot (made by Goex). Use a blackpowder
loading measure and set it to about 25 grs. to start as an initial load. I use
.44/.45 Cal. Wonder Wads over the powder and under the lead ball to lube the
charge and prevent crossfires. Press in a .451" diam. lead ball with the
loading lever.
AIR, Navy Arms supplies a very good manual with each of its Cap and Ball
revolvers. Follow their instructions.
Coop
NRA Endowment
SASS Life
NMLRA