Weapon for defense from cows
Todd Ellner
of the ones I see here. It's cows.
When my wife and I go out to work on the soon-to-be farm we often run into
cows that get away from their usual pastures and wander onto our land. These
are not just happy bucolic cows. They are transplanted range cows whose only
usual contact with people is to get branded, injected, and for some gelded.
Most of them aren't any problem, but a certain large bull and a couple of
steers who haven't quite gotten the idea have given us a few nasty moments.
To complicate things, we don't have many nice open fields, it's mostly
trees with a couple of logging roads. We don't see the beasts until we round
the bend and "Moo?!".
My question is, what is a good weapon to carry in case we run into the nastier
one's far from our vehicle? So far the recommendations are:
1) A 12-gauge pump shotgun loaded with slugs and kept with the tools wherever
we work. Pro: we can afford it, and my wife (who is not as strong as I)
can handle it. Should stop cows. Con: If it's with the tools it might not
be near enough. Actually carrying it strapped on one's back is painful,
tedious, and downrught dangerous when clearing brush or doing construction
work.
2) Article .303 of the Animal Control Code :-) Pros and cons mostly the same.
3) 10% oleoresin capscin (sp?) spray. Pro: Lite-n-EZ to carry. Requires no
strength to handle. Used to adjust bears' attitudes. Con: Yeah, right. IF
the cow is downwind AND it's within 20 feet AND it doesn't get madder AND
it doesn't just trample me on general principles the next time we meet. On
the other hand the money back guarantee is really nifty :-)
4) A good .44 magnum. One informant swears by the single action Rugers.
Another says a more expensive double action pieces are the only way to go.
Pro: Should stop a cow. Can be carried in holster while working. Not too
expensive. Con: My wife's does not feel whe is strong enough to handle
this weapon right now.
5) Various smaller caliber handguns. I'm not sure I want to just hurt over
1000 lbs. of angry muscle at close range. The person who recommended these
said that the steer would probably not be killed outright but would decide
to take its business elsewhere. Great, a wounded dangerous animal in the
brush. That';s not my idea of a good time.
Does anyone here have any other suggestions? Currently we're leaning towards
1) and 4) on the assumption that if six shots and a bunch of slugs from the
shotgun don't stop it the bull deserves to stomp a mudhole in our collective
body.
Thanks in advance.
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Ellner to...@reed.edu
"What has the study of biology taught you about the Creator Dr. Haldane?"
JBS Haldane:"I'm not sure, but He seems to be inordinately fond of beetles."
Randall A. Mihara
#I've got a self-defense situation that's a little different from most
#of the ones I see here. It's cows.
Well, I normally use a box of twinkies to lure them back into the
Jenny Craig clinic...oh, you mean the other types of cows:-)
#My question is, what is a good weapon to carry in case we run into the nastier
#one's far from our vehicle? So far the recommendations are:
If you want a pistol, how about a Freedom Arms .454 Casull? It should have
enough punch to stop a cow.
If you want a rifle that will absolutely stop a cow, get a McMillan .50 Cal.
But realistically, you would probably be better off with a .308 and taking
multiple shots.
However, you might want to explore other non-lethal alternatives. That is,
you might be able to use a sonic device to frighten the bull away, or
at least irritate it enough to leave the immediate premises. Of course,
you might end up enraging it, at which point you should have a backup
plan:-)
Another thing you might do is use a shotgun loaded with salt (that is
if you have an old shotgun that is essentially valueless). You can give
the bull a painful, but non-lethal wound.
I would not suggest using a small caliber pistol such as a 9mm or 45ACP.
You might just wound such a large animal and get it angry.
Just my 2 bits.
Randy Mihara
rmi...@ocf.berkeley.edu
James Douglas Del-Vecchio
#1) A 12-gauge pump shotgun loaded with slugs and kept with the tools wherever
That oughtta do it. The BRI sabbots ought to penetrate more
reliably than the Fosters or Brennekes.
#3) 10% oleoresin capscin (sp?) spray. Pro: Lite-n-EZ to carry. Requires no
Maybe, maybe not.
#4) A good .44 magnum. One informant swears by the single action Rugers.
I seriously doubt the value of this one.
#5) Various smaller caliber handguns. I'm not sure I want to just hurt over
Baaad idea, imo.
JD
Jordan K. Hubbard
My question is, what is a good weapon to carry in case we run into
Umm, I you won't like this, but I think you're over-reacting just a
tad..
Yes, I've been around plenty of cattle on the family ranch in colorado
and I've carried various sorts of weaponry for various purposes (so
I'm not on general principle opposed to carrying guns around), it's
just that I feel your average steer/cow isn't something that requires
shooting to discourage it, 12 gauge slugs notwithstanding. I also
presume these are your cattle you're talking about - Animal control
codes are very nice and all that but I can tell you for a fact that
you're going to generate an EXTREME amount of bad feeling between
yourself and your neighbors if you blast one of their bovines! I can
just sort of picture the extreme scorn (to say nothing of anger) on
the rancher's face as you tell him you felt really threatened by his
bull and felt compelled to put 15 rounds into it! He'll probably also
comment on your city origins at that point and strongly suggest you
return there..
NOW. You're probably feeling a little unfairly attacked at this point
and I want to assure you that this isn't my intention. As you spend
more time around the ferocious bovies, I think you and your wife will
find they're more bluster than anything else (at the heart of even the
fiercest beef lurks a desperate fear of all on two legs) and can be
discouraged by a loud shout and a couple of aggressive stamps of the
foot. I KNOW this advice sounds exceedingly thin in the face of an
aggressive bull, so I'll make another suggestion to set your mind at
ease - buy you and your wife a couple of .357 magnums with 4in.
barrels. S&W and Ruger produce models that are very good value for
money.
The guns will be small and handy enough to carry around, yet capable
of producing a substantial report (and, should the very very unlikely
need to actually use it arise, good stopping power). When faced with
a recalcitrant bull that a shout and aggressive stance will just NOT
dissuade, walk up to it and fire a shot into the ground near its feet
(do NOT fire at a glancing angle from a distance, the bullet may
ricochet and kill someone - don't fire into the air for the same
reason). I can guarantee you that said bull (or cow) will come very
close to breaking the speed of sound at sea level. Should this not
work, and I'm willing to bet that you and your wife will be pushing up
the daisies from old age before cattle mutate to the stage where it
doesn't, THEN you can feel fully justified in firing the next 5 rounds
into its head. The rancher will probably thank you for killing a cow
with BSE! ("mad cow disease").
Jordan Hubbard (ex-moderator of rec.guns)
E. Michael Smith
5) A cattle prod. Designed for exactly the task of nudging ornry
cattle in the direction you want to go. While not as flashy as
a decent .44 magnum, it doesn't make as much of a mess and the
'cow' learns to respect you... after using the .44, you will
just have to 'train' the replacement 'cow' too ...
My dad used these with great effect on his 'cows' ... even the
particulary onry young bull that got its attitude adjusted
along with a name change to 'Mr. Steer' ... (For the non-farmers,
a steer is a used-to-be-mle bovine.)
In article <1992Nov21.1...@reed.edu> to...@reed.edu (Todd Ellner) writes:
#My question is, what is a good weapon to carry in case we run into the nastier
#one's far from our vehicle? So far the recommendations are:
#1) A 12-gauge pump shotgun loaded with slugs and kept with the tools wherever
# we work. Pro: we can afford it, and my wife (who is not as strong as I)
# can handle it. Should stop cows. Con: If it's with the tools it might not
# be near enough. Actually carrying it strapped on one's back is painful,
# tedious, and downrught dangerous when clearing brush or doing construction
# work.
This would work, but I think it is serious overkill ... they use .22 LR
to dispatch cows in some slaughter operations. The .22 has to be placed into
the brain in a head shot, though.
#4) A good .44 magnum. One informant swears by the single action Rugers.
# Another says a more expensive double action pieces are the only way to go.
# Pro: Should stop a cow. Can be carried in holster while working. Not too
# expensive. Con: My wife's does not feel whe is strong enough to handle
# this weapon right now.
This, or a .357 Magnum, is what I'd go for. (Provided the local laws
let you transport handguns without too much grief...) The person in
the cubical across from mine is about 110 lbs, female, blond, vegetarian,
about 21 years old, very quiet and somewhat introverted, and packs a .44 Mag.
I think you will find that a decent .44 Mag isn't all THAT hard to shoot...
Some issues: Get a heavy one. The Ruger RedHawk is great for what
you want to do. Get stainless steel unless you really like taking
care of guns. If the .44 Mag load is too hot for your spouse, she
can load it up with .44 Specials (which should also be enough for
what you want to do...but alot less kick..). Why a heavy one?
I once shot a Thompson Contender with a light 10" bbl (a very light
gun) in .44 Mag. It was a, um, religious experience for a novice...
If your friend is recommending it, borrow his for your spouse to try!
Why speculate when a trip to the range can solve the question.
For what you want to do, either the single or double action would
be fine, just practice till you know how it works without thinking.
#5) Various smaller caliber handguns. I'm not sure I want to just hurt over
# 1000 lbs. of angry muscle at close range. The person who recommended these
# said that the steer would probably not be killed outright but would decide
# to take its business elsewhere. Great, a wounded dangerous animal in the
# brush. That';s not my idea of a good time.
You want a head shot in any case. A soft tissue injury with a .44 Mag
or even a shotgun slug in a grazing shot to the rump will also give you
a mad bull... The slug to the head is THE shot to practice. Besides,
the bull WILL be comming at you when you shoot, won't it???
The only other smaller caliber I'd consider is the .357 Magnum. It is
also able to do the job, and is widely available. I've had both the
Ruger single and double actions in this caliber and they have worked
flawlessly. While Ruger is somewhat politically incorrect lately, he
still makes some darned good revolvers...
#Does anyone here have any other suggestions? Currently we're leaning towards
#1) and 4) on the assumption that if six shots and a bunch of slugs from the
#shotgun don't stop it the bull deserves to stomp a mudhole in our collective
#body.
I'd put a .357 on the wife's hip, a .44 mag on me, and a cattle prod
on the other hip of both of us... If the 'cow' presents a broadside or
rump, prod it. In case of charging bull, draw and fire. If it just
moos stupidly from >20 feet away, shout at it ... and call it names
like 'rump roast' and 'hamburger' ;-)
--
E. Michael Smith e...@apple.COM
'Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has
genius, power and magic in it.' - Goethe
I am not responsible nor is anyone else. Everything is disclaimed.
Frank Crary
#Another thing you might do is use a shotgun loaded with salt (that is
#if you have an old shotgun that is essentially valueless). You can give
#the bull a painful, but non-lethal wound.
This needs to be rock salt, right? I'd think ordinary table salt wouldn't
penetrate the hide, but I'm not sure rock salt would survive firing
and might just hit as table salt-sized grains...
Frank Crary
CU Boulder
Dan Sorenson
#I've got a self-defense situation that's a little different from most
#of the ones I see here. It's cows.
You're in trouble.
#usual contact with people is to get branded, injected, and for some gelded.
#Most of them aren't any problem, but a certain large bull and a couple of
#steers who haven't quite gotten the idea have given us a few nasty moments.
#To complicate things, we don't have many nice open fields, it's mostly
#trees with a couple of logging roads. We don't see the beasts until we round
#the bend and "Moo?!".
Hire some cowboys and take the cows to the sale barn. Your best
method of not being hurt is to get rid of them now.
#1) A 12-gauge pump shotgun loaded with slugs and kept with the tools wherever
# we work. Pro: we can afford it, and my wife (who is not as strong as I)
# can handle it. Should stop cows.
Don't bet on it. You've got 1500lbs of swinging beef coming after
your hide, and this beef is directed by a brain that is well armored and
not doing much by way of thinking. You know how a heart-shot deer will
run 50 yards before figuring out it's dead? Cows are the same way, and
when enraged or frightened enough to charge are not perceptive to this.
#2) Article .303 of the Animal Control Code :-) Pros and cons mostly the same.
A better bet, if you have time to aim. Go for the throat, not the
head. I'd trust nothing under a .30-06 with jacketed bullets for that.
They'll take several blows with a spike-driver (sledge-hammer with a 1.5"
diameter head but just as heavy) before penetrating the skull. The heart
and lungs are good too, but if it's coming after you the throat is your
best bet against the frontal area.
#3) 10% oleoresin capscin (sp?) spray.
You will annoy it. It will stop, shake its head, and then turn
you into a stain on the ground.
#4) A good .44 magnum.
Semi-jacketed hollow points to the throat, it might work. No
chance of penetrating the skull.
#5) Various smaller caliber handguns.
Will possibly scare it, certain to annoy it.
Your best bet is to get rid of them. If you don't have the time
to aim your weapon, running towards *the cow* while yelling and waving
your hands stands about as great a chance as anything on this list. I
used to raise cattle in my youth, and once a cow or bull decides to take
you on your only hope was a large fence to leap over and then keep
running in case he meant to press the point. In all situations, back
off if possible -- cattle are like any other animal in that they think
you're a threat and react. If you're making tracks they might still
nail you, but usually will halt the attack if you don't provoke them.
They will out-run you, and while they rarely keep tromping on your or
goring you, once will hurt you very badly. Make noise when you're
walking about -- they won't seek you out that way. A baseball bat of
aluminum with a foam-rubber hand grip works good too. Side-step
behind a tree or post and whack them with all your might on the nose
or on the back and they go by; the first will annoy it but possibly
teach it a lesson (might piss it off too, but will slow it for a few
moments so draw gun and fire), while the latter will likely cause
temporary paralysis and hopefully break the spine. Don't bet on it,
use the time to kill the critter with a good shot. Don't take shelter
in the truck and expect to wait it out -- it will destroy the truck
and possibly hurt you in the process.
In short, get rid of them. If you can't do that, scare them
away before they see you with some noise, and if they don't respond
shoot to kill with the biggest thing you can carry. There's just
too much meat with too little intelligence there to play with.
This also applies well to wild boar, bears, and other hardy
animals you may find in the wild. For guns, remember there is no
3-shell limit to hunting cattle, and they will take lots of aimed
fire to bring down quickly.
< Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 z1...@exnet.iastate.edu vik...@iastate.edu >
< ISU only censors what I read, not what I say. Don't blame them. >
< "This isn't an answer, it's a pagan dance around a midnight fire >
< written in intellectual runes." -- Rich Young >
James P. Callison
#I've got a self-defense situation that's a little different from most
#of the ones I see here. It's cows.
Personally, I would suggest using the same thing ranchers do in tight
quarters (like in the stock yards); either a bullwhip or the good,
old-fashioned non-lethal cattle prod. If you shoot a cow, you're
very likely to be held liable for the rancher's loss (which can amount
to no small amount of change), even if it is on your property.
A cattle prod or bullwhip is almost always going to work against
cattle, except in a stampede--but if you're caught in one, you'll
have the choice of climbing a tree or kissing your @$$ goodbye--an
AK47 with AP rounds won't help you there...
If you're likely to meet them amongst the trees, like you said, a
good, sturdy cattle prod should do nicely, as you'll have a tree
to hide behind while zapping the not-so-little bugger as he goes
by, rather like a toreador. Cattle prods work well against all sorts
of cattle, but they have to be within three or four feet (there're
probably longer cattle prods available, but most of the ones I'd
see when I went to the Cow Palace with my grandfather were about
four feet long (and very effective, even against those 2-ton
Brahma bulls).
Besides being a potential legal hassle, it's also a little bit cruel
to kill a cow just because you got in its way....or is that too PC
for you? :-)
James
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Dan Sorenson
#Personally, I would suggest using the same thing ranchers do in tight
#quarters (like in the stock yards); either a bullwhip or the good,
#old-fashioned non-lethal cattle prod.
I believe the cows he is talking about are not at all similar
to the domestic cows I raised as a youth with regard to temperament.
Those cattle prods were useful in persuading a cow to move up the
loading chute, but should she feel boxed in and need to escape the
prod was about as useful as teats on a bull. I think Rodney King
showed that electricity just don't stop an enraged person. But, as
range seems to be possible here, a taser or similar "long-range prod"
might be a viable alternative.
# If you shoot a cow, you're
#very likely to be held liable for the rancher's loss (which can amount
#to no small amount of change), even if it is on your property.
You'll have to check your local laws here, but the preferred
method is to talk with your neighbor about the problem first. Offer
to help him mend his fence, install a hot-wire (you're going to pay
for the right-side half of the fence due to custom, and be responsible
for maintaining it). I forgot to mention that an electric fence is
fairly inexpensive, easy to maintain, and works quite well. As a
last resort, talk to your county sheriff. He has to enforce the law,
so tell him your problems and get his advice.
#Besides being a potential legal hassle, it's also a little bit cruel
#to kill a cow just because you got in its way....or is that too PC
#for you? :-)
That depends on what the cow does, IMHO. My brother spent three
weeks in a hospital due to a bull feeling frisky. Myself, a week on the
couch waiting for cracked ribs to heal from a head-butt I took while
tagging a calf (mom knew me and would eat from my hands, but when baby
went "bwaah!" she knocked me about fifteen feet and rolled me over a
few times for good measure). The former went to town, the latter I
forgave. I'm such a nice guy, eh? The legal hassle would involve your
neighbor, too, as it was his animal running loose that caused the
problem. There are braided whips, about 5' long, available at tack
shops. With a little practice, you can snap them quite well and this
is nearly as effective as the prod. The short length is less likely to
be tangled up in brush and trees. I recommend against trying to climb a
tree -- they move too darn fast for that, and if you're between a cow
and a tree guess who gets squished?
Since the description of the cows and their behavior isn't known
exactly, and since experience is really the best teacher here, I'm
just tossing out ideas -- I'll let the poster, his wife, and his
neighbor decide what the best response is.
[MODERATOR: I keep having this vision of the Far Side cows reading
our discussion in the morning paper over coffee, and one remarking
to the other "Why Martha, these people are just so unCIVilized!"]