Holding a pistol sideways (California-style)
pla...@hotmail.com
originate? Is it simply a question of Hollywood and idiots?
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Prigator
Yes. You got it.
Doug Chandler
MARK L.
gun sideways was done so that the spent cases would be propelled upwards
and allow the anti-hero of the movie to catch the hot brass cases in his
mouth and show the dying victim just how 'tuff a mutha' he really was.
"Big Ho," played by Dennis Rodman, originally was supposed to hold the
pistol sideways, but as a left handed shooter, thus propelling the spent
cases straight down. A problem arose when some of the hot brass scuffed
his Nikes and almost lost him his multi-million dollar endorsement deal,
thus almost costing some asian orphan his 25 cent a week job (Nike CARES,
Dennis CARES! We can't have unemployed asian orphans!)
Seriously, I don't care where it started, I just hope the practice
continues and spreads amongst the 'gangsta' crowd. With a semi-auto, it
makes accuracy at anything past 5 yds. wishful thinking, and any accuracy
at all with a revolver near impossible. This practice is truly just a
close range, punk assassin, gonna get you for messin-up my drug deal, bunch
of krap, home boy thing. As such, the only people (statisically speaking)
they stand much of a chance of hurting are other low life, street punk,
gangsta scum, and the more of each other they kill, the less threat they
are to law abiding citizens. So tilt that pistol home-boy!!
J. Eric Townsend
# I know this question has been asked before but how did this "Gansta'-grip"
# originate? Is it simply a question of Hollywood and idiots?
I've seen it in other places. A friend of mine refers to it as "the
Israeli grip", but I have no idea why.
As far as movies are concerned, I suspect it started in Hong Kong...
--
J. Eric Townsend jet at goonsquad.spies.com http://www.spies.com/jet
Socialist Gun Control: The Government buys guns for everyone.
John Long
#I know this question has been asked before but how did this "Gansta'-grip"
#originate? Is it simply a question of Hollywood and idiots?
#
Thanks so much for labeling the whole state as being composed of
"gangstas" and Hollywood idiots. Most people here (outside the cities)
are good, ordinary people. Admittedly, many are misguided in their
politics, but generally mean well. No one that I know shoots sideways.
David Berryhill
#I know this question has been asked before but how did this "Gansta'-grip"
#originate? Is it simply a question of Hollywood and idiots?
#
that way!
Dave Berryhill
Ronald Shin
> ...
Exactly. Hollywood has shown its ignorance of firearms handling on many
occasions. Just check out the www.recguns.com FAQ, and look under Movie
Mishaps. You'll get a good chuckle out of these.
.
> ...
--
"The First Amendment is crucial. Of course it is. So are all
the others. And the Second Amendment is the one that guarantees
that people can bear arms to protect themselves."
Charlton Heston, President of the NRA
bill draper
> ...
Decades ago, I used to go down to the "Jack Tar Hotel" in Lansing,
Michigan when the Spanish American War vets and or often World War One
vets used to have conventions. The cavalrymen spoke of shooting
pistols around horses. I remember discussions about shooting forward
on a horse and that you did not want to shoot along side a horses ear
with a 1911 colt. They held the gun between the ears. It was then
also necessary to tip the gun ejection port skyward so that that the hot
ejected case (and sometimes fireball if the recoll spring weakend to
less than 16 pounds) so that you did not hit the horses right ear.
Apparently that style of shooting carried over into dismounted actions.
Perhaps some hollywood dweeb looked at old photos of this hold and
figured that the old timers knew something about shooting back then that
we have forgotten.
Bill Draper
Ian Underwood
##Is it simply a question of Hollywood and idiots?
I don't remember where, but I read that this was originally a Chinese
thing, and can actually work for you if you're shooting at a crowd of
people instead of at particular individuals, since you'll hit someone
no matter where you shoot, and the recoil moves your hand in the
direction you want it to go.
Rod Bryant
know if it is fact or fiction - that a branch of Israeli intelligence
once carried .22 cal Beretta's in condition three . They supposedly
taught a method of draw that involved bringing the pistol on target
and tilting it to the left (for a right handed shooter) to allow the
lett hand to retract the slide and chamber a round. This may be the
origin of what your friend is referring to.
On 7 Aug 1998 11:56:28 -0400, j...@spies.com (J. Eric Townsend) wrote:
#I've seen it in other places. A friend of mine refers to it as "the
#Israeli grip", but I have no idea why.
Rod
Joel Rosenberg
##Is it simply a question of Hollywood and idiots?
Largely. OTOH, by rotating the pistol a few degrees (up to around 15), some
people find that they can get a steadier one-handed grip. It also helps those
of us who are right-handed by left-eye-dominant.
Still, it looks nothing like the 90 degree Hollywood grip.
Ollie
wrote:
#I remember reading once - don't remember where and don't pretend to
#know if it is fact or fiction - that a branch of Israeli intelligence
#once carried .22 cal Beretta's in condition three . They supposedly
#taught a method of draw that involved bringing the pistol on target
#and tilting it to the left (for a right handed shooter) to allow the
#lett hand to retract the slide and chamber a round. This may be the
#origin of what your friend is referring to.
#
I think you are right about this. It was the Masoud(sp?). The reason
for the sideways cant was because they carried their pistols in
Condition 3 (chamber empty) and during the draw they used the left
hand to rack the slide and then immediately fired.
IMHO, the way that the "gangsta" hold came about was all the "wanna
be's" watching the news stations when they showed footage from
security cameras of armed robberies by young "gang members". If you
look closely at these type of robberies, the sales clerks in
"Stop_n_Rob"'s tend to duck down behind the counter when the bad guy
comes in. The bad guy then has to point his gun over the counter and
downward. This is very hard to do without bending your wrist.
Canting the gun sideways allows the bad guy to point a gun at the
sales clerk hunkered down behind the counter. The bad guy knows this
from experience so he comes in with the gun held high with his wrist
sharply bent. Now the "wanna be's" see this and think that is how its
done. And Hollywood directors who want to be "authentic" study the
same videos and interview a couple of "gangsters"(who used to be
"wanna be's"). The go "Gee, so that's how they do it.....". Now all
the "wanna be's" see it in the movies so it MUST be the right way to
fire a gun....QED.
--
===================================================
"Here's another fine mess you've gotten us into..."
===================================================
Ollie
Glad to meet you too!
Directors DO, between divorces and DUI's.
LOVED the tale though, thanks
GDome85474
but I can't find a reference to it.
RtofCentre
#continues and spreads amongst the 'gangsta' crowd. With a semi-auto, it
#makes accuracy at anything past 5 yds. wishful thinking, and any accuracy
#at all with a revolver near impossible. This practice is truly just a
#close range, punk assassin, gonna get you for messin-up my drug deal, bunch
#of krap, home boy thing. As such, the only people (statisically speaking)
#they stand much of a chance of hurting are other low life, street punk,
#gangsta scum, and the more of each other they kill, the less threat they
#are to law abiding citizens. So tilt that pistol home-boy!!
whew!!!! well said!
Fluid
#
# makes accuracy at anything past 5 yds. wishful thinking....
Obviously you haven't tried this technique or you wouldn't have spoken
so harshly of it. A few months ago, after reading posts from all the
"experts" on a previous thread featuring sideways holding, I decided to
try it. At 15 yards, I found I could group about as well as I could
when the .45 auto was held in the conventional manner - about two inches
for five shots. It required a lot of extra concentration for me to get
a good sight picture since I'm used to an upright hold, but I was
surprised at how well I could shoot at this range when I tried.
Interestingly, the POI was slightly high and about three inches left of
POA with my right hand hold, ejection port up.
I never tried it at father ranges, and don't intend to, but I did prove
to myself that plenty of posters didn't know what they were talking
about on this subject. I would not want an opponent shooting at me
holding his handgun sideways - at short ranges he could be just as
deadly as any other shooter with similar skills. A shooter with poor
skills will shoot badly, regardless of technique. BTW, I will continue
to use the conventional hold myself. :^)
Jay T
go...@mailexcite.com
jo...@bigfoot.com (Joel Rosenberg) wrote:
# In article <6qf76h$r...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, prig...@aol.com (Prigator) wrote:
# ##Is it simply a question of Hollywood and idiots?
# #
#
# Largely. OTOH, by rotating the pistol a few degrees (up to around 15), some
# of us who are right-handed by left-eye-dominant.
#
# Still, it looks nothing like the 90 degree Hollywood grip.
This is absolutely correct. When firing one-handed, especially in a minimum
exposure-type stance (with your side facing the target), it is better for most
people with most handguns to "cock" your wrist to the left some (but certainly
not more than 20 degrees). This is a more natural position for your arm
(kinesiologically speaking) and provides a more stable platform for the
absorption of recoil.
I wonder if "California-style" might just be an exaggerated rendition of
this. I had an acquaintance in Alabama (who fashioned himself after Snoop Dog
apparently), whose weapon of choice was a Raven .32. He would hold it
"California-style" with his thumb on the back of the frame (instead of on the
grip, where it belongs), his index finger cocked in the air along the length
of the barrel, and his *middle* finger on the trigger. While I never had the
(dis)pleasure of going to the range with him, I am pretty certain he couldn't
hit water if he fell out of a boat.
When using a handgun in self-defense, its not whether you hit your target or
not but whether you look "cool" or not that ultimately counts, don't you
know? Of course, the fact that he only looked "cool" to other delinquent
ingrates is a reality that my dear friend was never able to grasp.
Snoop Goomy Goom
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GriffisP
test to prove his thesis which was, it was a load of sh*t. It was kinda funny
reading about it. The author stated that there's a method of shooting where the
gun is held at a 45% angle. But if you wanna hold it "gangsta" don't even think
you're going to hit anything. Cause you ain't!
g. h. tutterrow
not, but it has been my contention that the side-ways shooting style
stemmed from the way the "gangstas" do their gang affiliation hand signs
(most of them contort their hands and arms in an odd manner to "flag"
the group they belong to). Fortunately (actually, UNFORTUNATELY for the
innocent by- standers who are hit by stray bullets), those knuckle-heads
don't realize that shooting a handgun side-ways is not accurate, and in
the case of semi-autos, it could cause a stove-pipe.
In essence, it merely LOOKS cool! Don't tell them that AIMING a firearm
will increase their accuracy, though!
Mark Thomen
#
# Someone wrote:
# #
# # Seriously, I don't care where it started, I just hope the practice
# # makes accuracy at anything past 5 yds. wishful thinking....
<(Snipped)
# I never tried it at father ranges, and don't intend to, but I did prove
# to myself that plenty of posters didn't know what they were talking
# about on this subject. I would not want an opponent shooting at me
# holding his handgun sideways - at short ranges he could be just as
# deadly as any other shooter with similar skills. A shooter with poor
# skills will shoot badly, regardless of technique. BTW, I will continue
# to use the conventional hold myself. :^)
You are correct; you can shoot groups exactly the same size as you can
with the conventional hold. However, there are STILL important
differences, as you've found. First, the location of the group moves.
Second, the work involved in concentrating on the sight picture and
alignment increases significantly. Third, the recoil will be different
and does not work with natural body mechanics; recovery for a second
shot will take longer.
The net of these differences mean that people who don't practice it are
going to be less likely to get good groups, and less likely to use the
sights. That is good news for those of us that may be on the other side
of the sights, getting ready to return fire. Gangstas, keep watching
those movies!
Mark
ColCo...@webtv.net
It really is just monkey business, as the sights are regulated for the
trajectory and recoil effect while holding the gun upright like a normal
person. One of the gun rags did a story on this a few months ago, and they
couldn't hit anything past point blank range. The Israeli technique you were
refering to is that they carry the guns in condition 3(hammer down, full mag,
empty chamber, safety off) and draw and rack the slide with the other hand.
Seems pretty brainless too, what if you are using your other hand for any
multitude of other things? People should pay attention to what John M.
Browning and Col.Rex Applegate have taught us about gun handling. The Colonel
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Jerry
## Seriously, I don't care where it started, I just hope the practice
##continues and spreads amongst the 'gangsta' crowd. With a semi-auto, it
##makes accuracy at anything past 5 yds. wishful thinking, and any accuracy
##at all with a revolver near impossible. This practice is truly just a
##close range, punk assassin, gonna get you for messin-up my drug deal, bunch
##of krap, home boy thing. As such, the only people (statisically speaking)
##they stand much of a chance of hurting are other low life, street punk,
##gangsta scum, and the more of each other they kill, the less threat they
##are to law abiding citizens. So tilt that pistol home-boy!!
Amen to that!!!
Bill D.
in my face though. Should work great for a lefty - I'll try that next.
I was also waiting for someone who had actually tried it instead of
making fun of it.
Your POI should have been to the left - remember the sights are set to
allow for bullet drop and the POI should be low as the windage setting
will not take drop into account when held horizontally. This assumes
the sights are set for a perfect sight adjustment
All things considered, the group with handgun ammunition s/b approx
within 2 inches of the normal position.
Generally you would hold on the left shoulder (the target's left
shoulder, the one to your right).
Bill
- - - -
Fluid wrote:
> ...
Fluid
# You are correct; you can shoot groups exactly the same size as you can
# with the conventional hold. However, there are STILL important
# differences, as you've found. First, the location of the group moves.
Yep, but someone else shooting the same pistol in the conventional
manner would likely find that their POI is not the same as mine either.
This is of course easily fixed by a simple sight adjustment, as can be
done with either the sideways or the conventional hold.
# Second, the work involved in concentrating on the sight picture and
# alignment increases significantly.
Not true actually; I had problems because I was USED to conventional
sight alignment and the practiced motions to correct it; I needed to
re-learn and countermand old habits. Someone who practices the sideways
hold, or someone who never shot any other way, is not likely to have as
much of a problem as I did. You are still keeping the front sight
between the rear horns.
# Third, the recoil will be different and does not work with natural body mechanics;
# recovery for a second shot will take longer.
This is true too, and may be the major disadvantage of the technique.
But in most gunfights, a rapid second shot is not too telling, otherwise
machine guns would be more effective than they are. Still, if the
sideways hold is the only way you practice, your results can be expected
to be reasonably good. Win bullseye matches? Nope. Hit a human
silhouette at 12 yards? Yep.
# The net of these differences mean that people who don't practice it are
# going to be less likely to get good groups, and less likely to use the
# sights.
This makes no sense - people who don't practice and don't use the sights
aren't going to hit much no matter HOW they hold the handgun; they are
not that great of a threat anyway.
The purpose of my test was to prove or to disprove that accurate
shooting can be done with the sideways hold technique. In spite of
dozens of posts to the contrary, decent accuracy CAN be obtained with
the technique - that was the whole point of my first post.
Someone who thinks that they are 'safe' when being fired upon by someone
holding a handgun sideways is fooling themselves - the technique does
not guarantee poor accuracy at all. The deciding factor, as in all
shooting, is practice and overall skill level, not how one holds the
handgun. I still don't intend to adopt the technique, nor will I not
seek cover if fired upon by a perp holding his handgun sideways. To
each his own.
Jay T
MARAUDER
I really shouldn't get into this. The urban myth I heard was sideways
shooting got its start in China. Firing a Broomhandled Mauser sideways
pointing the gun (Oh Lord ,not point-shooting) to the right of your target
and letting the muzzle flip (which is now to the left as the bore axis of
the gun is left of the axis of your firing arm) "walk" the full auto shots
across your target. B.S. ,probably, least ways that's the way I heared it.
geoff beneze
# You are correct; you can shoot groups exactly the same size as you can
# with the conventional hold. However, there are STILL important
# differences, as you've found. First, the location of the group moves.
# Second, the work involved in concentrating on the sight picture and
# alignment increases significantly. Third, the recoil will be different
# and does not work with natural body mechanics; recovery for a second
# shot will take longer.
Given this above, let's re-evaluate the conclusion that the "gangsta" grip
is as in accurate as is protrayed by all the expurts.
I recently participated in several courses of fire that required firing
from a large variety of "different" positions. These included barricade
"sidesways" both left and right, L&R sideways unsupported. Sideways (L&R)
two handed (laying on your side) and completely upside down (laying on
your back, shooting over your head). We also fired while hanging on a
ladder AND during movement, fore, aft and laterally.
The primary difference is in the point of impact, which is fairly easy to
figure out. In our entire group, there were NO misfeeds due to position
(due to other silliness yes, but not position.)
--
geoff beneze (geo...@beast-enterprises.com)
NRA Life member
******************************************
BEAST Enterprises/Arizona Shooting Sports
http://www.beast-enterprises.com
BEAST Gunsmithing -- Target Stands
The unofficial Dillon Tech Page
******************************************
Bill D.
Why do you give any credibility to some of these morons ??
And when you quote them as factual sources ????
See My & Fluid's earlier posts ref this.
Finally - try it yourself - it really ain't that tough.
Bill
GriffisP wrote:
> ...
ArmedNfree
Hollywood as the "IN" way to shoot. hopefully they never make one of
"GANGSTA=92S" learning to shoot correctly.=20
Maybe Hollywood should do a public service, like a kind of power draw=
from
the front of the belt, done by firing a round to speed the draw. ( a roun=
d
fired into his shorts) I=92m sure NOW would love it. =20
ebers4
#
# Obviously you haven't tried this technique or you wouldn't have spoken
# so harshly of it....
# I never tried it at father ranges, and don't intend to, but I did prove
# to myself that plenty of posters didn't know what they were talking
# about on this subject.
Agree. Seems to me that Ed McGivern could shoot pretty well from some
rather unorthodox positions. I suspect that with practice, one could
learn to hit quite well when holding a pistol sideways (tho I don't
think I want spend the time to learn).
Brian Brunner
::Fluid wrote:
::# Obviously you haven't tried this technique or you wouldn't have =
spoken
::# so harshly of it....
Hmmm How about putting a second set of sights... on the *right* side of =
the
slide? That's for right-handers...
::#posters didn't know what they were talking about on this subject. =20
Never happens! Honest!
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
If the IRS code was on King George's books in 1775,
Would it have been on the Declaration of Independence in 1776?
thu...@waterw.com
ensure a reliably ejected spent shell casing from a Lorcin or Jennings type
pistol. ;-)
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Mark Thomen
#
# # You are correct; you can shoot groups exactly the same size as you can
# # with the conventional hold. However, there are STILL important
# # differences, as you've found. First, the location of the group moves.
# # Second, the work involved in concentrating on the sight picture and
# # alignment increases significantly. Third, the recoil will be different
# # and does not work with natural body mechanics; recovery for a second
# # shot will take longer.
#
# Given this above, let's re-evaluate the conclusion that the "gangsta" grip
# is as in accurate as is protrayed by all the expurts.
#
# I recently participated in several courses of fire that required firing
# from a large variety of "different" positions. These included barricade
# "sidesways" both left and right, L&R sideways unsupported. Sideways (L&R)
# two handed (laying on your side) and completely upside down (laying on
# your back, shooting over your head). We also fired while hanging on a
# ladder AND during movement, fore, aft and laterally.
#
# The primary difference is in the point of impact, which is fairly easy to
# figure out. In our entire group, there were NO misfeeds due to position
# (due to other silliness yes, but not position.)
Let me expand on my post; yes, you can shoot groups just as small, and
where you want them - but it takes more work. Sight alignment and
picture between any two individuals using the same gun and holding it
sideways are likely to give greater differences than holding it
correctly - UNLESS both have practiced extensively with the gangsta hold
until they are comfortable with it.
The point I was trying to make is that while it CAN be as accurate, it's
not as likely to for several reasons: a) the 'gangstas' using this hold
probably haven't practiced enough that way to overcome the change, b)
the POI is likely to be different between different shooters, and c)
there is still the unnatural recoil movement to contend with on
follow-up shots.
These three differences mean I feel much better if I get into a gunfight
with someone I see is holding the gun 'gangsta' style - I believe my
odds for survival have increased.
Mark
Bob O`Brien
#
#Hmmm How about putting a second set of sights... on the *right* side of =
#the
#slide? That's for right-handers...
I wondered when someone would get 'round to mentioning this.
I've seen an article about a wondernine with just such sights,
along with an "assist handle" mounted as part of the left grip plate,
which extended up above and across the top of slide forming
a two-handed "T" grip. It was also full rock'n'roll, with a 30-rd. clip.
It looked like fun, but certainly impractical for carry.
As for just the sights, I see no inherent problem.
Bob O`Bob
Philip Peake
# # Seriously, I don't care where it started, I just hope the practice
# #continues and spreads amongst the 'gangsta' crowd. With a semi-auto, it
# #makes accuracy at anything past 5 yds. wishful thinking, and any accuracy
# #at all with a revolver near impossible. This practice is truly just a
# #close range, punk assassin, gonna get you for messin-up my drug deal, bunch
# #of krap, home boy thing. As such, the only people (statisically speaking)
# #they stand much of a chance of hurting are other low life, street punk,
# #gangsta scum, and the more of each other they kill, the less threat they
# #are to law abiding citizens. So tilt that pistol home-boy!!
#
# whew!!!! well said!
Well, a lot depends on who is holding the gun ...
I was working in CA a few months ago, on the project there were
a couple of the younger members who had never seen or
fired a gun in their lives.
One of the older members (a retired Marine officer) took them along to a local
range to introduce them to his .45 and 9mm. He taught them basic safety, and
got them
hitting the paper at about 7 yds. Then juist before they left the range, they
asked him to
show then how it should be done.
He wound the target out to 50' and emptied both guns through the bull.
Ten, he loaded one round into each gun, held the .45 in his right hand, the 9mm
in
his left, tilted them both at 90 degrees so that he could see the sights - 9mm
through left eye,
and .45 through right, and fired - both hit the black.
Needless to say, they were both very impressed (so was I).
I asked him about it later - he had never tried it before, but had seen it
done.
He said he would prefer two of the same guns, because getting two dissimialr
guns to fire at the same time was the hard part (!).
Of course, this guy had a LOT more experience and self dicipline than I would
expect
the average "Home Boy" to have, but don't write off ANY shooting position when
an
expereinced shooter is behind the gun.
Philip
batt...@my-dejanews.com
Fluid <fl...@alaska.net> wrote:
# Obviously you haven't tried this technique or you wouldn't have spoken
# so harshly of it. A few months ago, after reading posts from all the
# "experts" on a previous thread featuring sideways holding, I decided to
# try it. At 15 yards, I found I could group about as well as I could
# when the .45 auto was held in the conventional manner - about two inches
# for five shots. It required a lot of extra concentration for me to get
# a good sight picture since I'm used to an upright hold, but I was
# surprised at how well I could shoot at this range when I tried.
# Interestingly, the POI was slightly high and about three inches left of
# POA with my right hand hold, ejection port up.
#
# I never tried it at father ranges, and don't intend to, but I did prove
# to myself that plenty of posters didn't know what they were talking
# about on this subject. I would not want an opponent shooting at me
# holding his handgun sideways - at short ranges he could be just as
# deadly as any other shooter with similar skills. A shooter with poor
# skills will shoot badly, regardless of technique. BTW, I will continue
# to use the conventional hold myself. :^)
#
# Jay T
#
You're missing the point: gangsta-style shooting does not incorporate the
acquisition of a sight-picture. It is strictly a point-and-shoot action. No
gangbanger is going to stand around trying to get a sideways sight-picture
during a shoot-out. I'm sure any poster here could become fairly proficient
at shooting pistols while holding them upside-down as well if it was strictly
a matter of getting a proper sight-picture.
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dl...@impulse.net
ColCo...@webtv.net wrote:
> ...
lonel
There is a reason for this. Israeli civilians are not allowed to carry
their pistols with a round in the chamber. They use the sideways grip to
facilitate chambering a round. If you check out the Israeli made pistols you
may notice that almost all of them have serrations on the front of the slide.
These make it easier to chamber a round when holding the pistol low and in
front close to the body. This would come in handy when in a crowd.
These techniques may seem odd to us, but the Israelis ain't dumb and they
know what works in real life situations. That's something us "keyboard
kommandos" know nothing about.
Dennis
> ...
bpa
than gangster rap. If your going to point and shoot it works a little
better because its a more natural way to point with your index finger. A
lot of shotgun shooters will put the index finger along the fore stock
because it gives you a kind of body reference point.
Although I can't hit anything point shooting, either Roy, Gene or
Hop-a-Long could draw, shoot from the hip and knock the gun out of a bad
guys hand while the guy in the black hat was still getting the gun out of
his holster. After that, any other shooting just is not that impressive.
Fluid
#
# gangbanger is going to stand around trying to get a sideways sight-picture
# during a shoot-out....
The point being that anyone who does not practice good basic techniques
with a handgun ( front sight, trigger control ) isn't going to hit what
they aim at very often, regardless of the orientation of the pistol.
Some posters have become fixated on insignificant differences in
technique, then lose sight of the overall picture and what really
matters.
Those who feel safer just because gang-bangers 'hold their pistols
sideways' are missing the point that not ALL gang-bangers are
handgun-illiterate. I see some at the local range from time to time,
and while the majority I see are far from experts, I wouldn't want to
face them armed in a dark alley. Feel safer all you want, it is more
conforting in our violent world, but as for me, any armed foe is a
potentially dangerous one, no less so just because he holds his
gun/knife/club in an odd orientation....
Jay T
Robert Sacher
# I don't remember where, but I read that this was originally a Chinese
# thing, and can actually work for you if you're shooting at a crowd of...
I also can't remember where but do remember reading that the full auto
versions of the Mauser 96 pistol were used that way in China pre-WWII.
Recoil pushed it sideways instead of upward.
Bob
Bob Hall
commercial aimed at the LA market showing a gang banger trying to do his
first drive by, at least that is what I got out of it, at any rate the
setting was in a park with people scattering in all directions except
his intended victim.
The banger was using the California style, the intended victim was not,
guess who won?
GBehrends
# with someone I see is holding the gun 'gangsta' style - I believe my
# odds for survival have increased.
#
If someone were to point a gun at me 'gansta' style....I would expect
that they aren't very well trained, ect ect...but said untrained
bonehead who is stupid enough to hold this way, is probably stupid
enough to pull the trigger too....
I tried the hold, hurt my wrist [+P ammo] and the spent brass hit me on
the head.....chalked it up as silly....
I'd like to look cool too, now I just have to figure out how I'm going
to pay for all the ammo when I shoot two handed supressive like Bruce
Willis in Last Man Standing....... :) where did he put all those mags
anyway????
GB
Don Smith
#
# Hmmm, and just think all this time I thought that this was the only way to
# ensure a reliably ejected spent shell casing from a Lorcin or Jennings type
# pistol. ;-)
#
You may be right, if we could ever find one that would first feed a
round to fire and eject. ;^)
--
Don Smith
smit...@advicom.net
"We are surrounded by insurmountable opportunity."
--- Pogo
DeLotto
knuckles, and the gun is less visible. (Blued HS Sport King, so this might
not be true with a bright & shiney or black plastic jobbie...)
Bill D.
Fluid wrote:
> ...
Paul McMenamin
pioneered by a champion pistoler named Chapman I believe. Like me, he was
cross-dominant and it helped him allign the sights with his left eye.
Also, a small tilt angle (NOT 90 degrees) helps some people with low wrist
strength. It brings into play a different mix of arm and hand muscles.
(Just think when you have to give something a good shove--you'll
automatically rotate your wrist a bit.)
I find the moderate tilt most useful when shooting one-handed or shooting
with ones weak hand. It does seem to help with recoil.
So give it a try--you may be surprised that it offers some benefits,
particularly shooting one-handed. On the other hand the full Gangsta John
Woo style is just stupid. But then when was the last time Hollywood
actually showed someone using their sights when shooting a gun. The
silliest movie I ever saw was that one with Bruce Willis, Last man
standing. He shoots 2 1911s at once. If you watch the muzzle flip you'll
see none of the shots are going anywhere near his target.
Paul McM
Adrian Cassian
[]
# I also can't remember where but do remember reading that the full auto
# versions of the Mauser 96 pistol were used that way in China pre-WWII.
# Recoil pushed it sideways instead of upward.
#
My old buddy Harold,who flew a B17 in Europe during WWII, told me they
were taught to lay the Thompson submachinegun on it's side and let
recoil take her across your intended target.
-A
David G. Ziegler
GBehrends <b2...@leo.infi.net> writes:
# # These three differences mean I feel much better if I get into a gunfight
# # with someone I see is holding the gun 'gangsta' style - I believe my
# # odds for survival have increased.
# #
I saw a program the other night on The Learning Channel about New York
State's? Emergency Services Unit (SWAT) and when carrying a ballistic
shield they held their pistols sidewise and sighted through the
small window of the shield.>
cosmic...@my-dejanews.com
GBehrends <b2...@leo.infi.net> wrote:
# I'd like to look cool too, now I just have to figure out how I'm going
# to pay for all the ammo when I shoot two handed supressive like Bruce
# Willis in Last Man Standing....... :) where did he put all those mags
# anyway????
Those were the new, highly secret, belt fed, vanishing link M1911AX .45
autos...
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cosmic...@my-dejanews.com
o...@silcom.com (Paul McMenamin) wrote:
# particularly shooting one-handed. On the other hand the full Gangsta John
# Woo style is just stupid. But then when was the last time Hollywood
# actually showed someone using their sights when shooting a gun. The
I've checked out a couple of Woo flicks recently <Face/Off, Hard Boiled and
The Killer> and he generally doesn't have the characters canting the pistols
sideways - I think that was the one flick with Van Damme in it that started
it...
Model25
#Hmmm, and just think all this time I thought that this was the only way to
#ensure a reliably ejected spent shell casing from a Lorcin or Jennings type
#pistol. ;-)
Nah, need a 180 rotation for that.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Trapdoor Billy
SASS, NCOWS, WASA
I never met a S&W N-Frame that I didn't like.
Dauven
#
# Robert Sacher wrote:
# []
# # I also can't remember where but do remember reading that the full auto
# # versions of the Mauser 96 pistol were used that way in China pre-WWII.
# # Recoil pushed it sideways instead of upward.
# #
#
# recoil take her across your intended target.
# -A
#
I have fired many rounds out of a M1928A1 submachine gun and I will tell
you right now that the recoil of the M1928A1 is insufficient to do much
walking. If you would just think about it for a second, a M1911 wights
about 3 lbs. The recoil of it is rather managable. The M1928A1 fully
loaded weights in at 11 lbs. That extra 8 lbs absorbs a lot of recoil.
Also since the M1928A1 had a 30 round Magazine, (which is rather heavy)
and the average person Armed with a M1928A1 carried 3 magazines in a
pouch (thats about 15 lbs folks) plus 11 lbs for the weapon (thats a
total of 26 lbs for the weapon and ammo) added to the rate of fire of
the weapon, practally dictated that you did pull the trigger and fire up
all the ammo. In combat you fired short bursts (3 to 4 rounds) to
conserver your ammo. By the way Hollywood may have played up the M1928
as a infantry weapon but it was not used that much by front line
infantry troops. The Automatic weapon used in the infantry company was
the M1919 Automatic Rifle, the famous BAR. Now there was a weapon that
was a truly excellent weapon.
The M1928A1 was used mostly by mounted troops, (motorcycles, jeep and
truck drivers, tank crewmen, recce, and security troops,(ie M.P.s)).
Jim in Ore.
Peter
canting the gun sideways but they fired it conventionally....
Peter
The Polymath
# Ten, he loaded one round into each gun, held the .45 in his right hand, the 9mm
# in
# his left, tilted them both at 90 degrees so that he could see the sights - 9mm
# through left eye,
# and .45 through right, and fired - both hit the black.
I've seen John Farnam do this stunt, dropping two different steel plates
at the same time. Rotating the guns 90 degrees isn't necessary.
John specifically states that it is a _stunt_. It has nothing to do
with Real(tm) World defensive shooting.
[ :-) And, speaking as a native Californian, I resent the 90 degree
gangsta hold being referred to as "California-style." Idiots are doing
it all over the country. Professionals in California aren't. (-: ]
--
The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CCP, CFI)
http://www.babcom.com/polymath
(818) 882-6309
Query pgpkeys.mit.edu for PGP public key.
The Polymath
# Although I can't hit anything point shooting, either Roy, Gene or
# Hop-a-Long could draw, shoot from the hip and knock the gun out of a bad
# guys hand while the guy in the black hat was still getting the gun out of
# his holster. After that, any other shooting just is not that impressive.
You're kidding here, right? You just forgot to put the smiley on.
Right? _Please_ tell me you forgot the smiley.
pla...@hotmail.com
jl...@cmc.net (John Long) wrote:
# Thanks so much for labeling the whole state as being composed of
# "gangstas" and Hollywood idiots. Most people here (outside the cities)
# are good, ordinary people. Admittedly, many are misguided in their
# politics, but generally mean well. No one that I know shoots sideways.
Please accept my regrets at labeling the whole state as being composed of
"gangstas" and Hollywood idiots. Let me think about that for a moment.....
Barbra Boxer, Diane Feinstein, Tom Heyden, Willy Brown, Times/Warner, CBS,
NBC, ABC, the folks that brought us LW4, the waiting period for BOLT ACTION
RIFLES & SHOTGUNS...... no; of course....it's not the whole State; but what a
wonderful place to be FROM! :-D Come on - if you take it too seriously you
might get politically active....and that would be a real change wouldn't it?
Because that sort of thing happens in California because PEOPLE LET IT
HAPPEN! If California get's a "label" that it's a Liberal wonderland or a
haven for "gangstas" you better wake up and get ACTIVE, not angry at someone
for pointing it out or calling a spade a spade.
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WALT K
wrote:
#In article <6qoa28$6...@xring.cs.umd.edu>,
# GBehrends <b2...@leo.infi.net> writes:
## # These three differences mean I feel much better if I get into a gunfight
## # with someone I see is holding the gun 'gangsta' style - I believe my
## # odds for survival have increased.
## #
# I saw a program the other night on The Learning Channel about New York
# State's? Emergency Services Unit (SWAT) and when carrying a ballistic
# shield they held their pistols sidewise and sighted through the
# small window of the shield.>
#
i have been folloing this thread and i I have had with the term
"california style "
lets call it what it is "gang banger" style
personal I think its load of crap I live in souther california and
every night we hear about some "inocent " bystander getting or there
were several shots fired in to a house or party and nobody was hit or
you see the police mopping up afterwards and you see the numbers
markers or cones marking a shell caseing location and you can tell
that the banger got of at least 2 mags worth or there were two
shooters or more
so I don't put much faith in the shooting ablealty if the punks
CRIP = cowards run in packs
if you want to talk about california style lets talk about the weaver
stance invented /delvlopted by a Los Angles County Dep shreiff and
lets talk about IPSC started by the SWPL up in big bear area by Jeff
Cooper / Ray chapman et al
the_s...@my-dejanews.com
# At 15 yards, I found I could group about as well as I could
# when the .45 auto was held in the conventional manner - about two inches
# for five shots. It required a lot of extra concentration for me to get
# a good sight picture since I'm used to an upright hold,
Yup, for carefully placed shots, there may indeed be little difference. Add
stress, time pressure, and recoil, and what you have is somewhat reduced
first-shot hit probability, and GREATLY reduced follow-up shot hit
probability. Sorry, but your test actually proves what appears to be the
majority view in this thread...
T.S.
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RDuP13
#gangsta hold being referred to as "California-style." Idiots are doing
#it all over the country.
Actually I was told that this is a Isreali method for point shooting, that was
used with the Browning Hi-power. Since it was carried without a round in the
chamber, the left hand would rack the slide at about chest level with the gun
at a 90 degree cant. Is supposed to be a more natural point. Only tried it once
for a cover fire senario in a combat range. Felt stupid but all the rounds I
fired on the run to the next station hit where I pointed.
Jon Graznak
WALT K <Dmal...@earthlink.net> wrote in article
<6qtmke$p...@xring.cs.umd.edu>...
# if you want to talk about california style lets talk about the weaver
# stance invented /delvlopted by a Los Angles County Dep shreiff and
# lets talk about IPSC started by the SWPL up in big bear area by Jeff
# Cooper / Ray chapman et al
Not to pick too many nits, as the fine folks at SWPL were very important in
the development on Practical shooting, but IPSC was started in a hotel in
Columbia, Missouri at a meeting of the SWPL, Midwest Practical Pistol
League and some good folks from Iowa who's names escape me. The
organization served to solidify the discipline which was being practiced
and the various courses of fire into a sport which vaguely resembles the
game that is played today.
richard morris
manner, for maximum accuracy and efficiency. To deviate from this so
drasticly is simply idiotic.
ste...@fgp.ufl.edu
# Maybe Hollywood should do a public service, like a kind of power draw from
# the front of the belt, done by firing a round to speed the draw. ( a round
# fired into his shorts) Im sure NOW would love it.
#
Hey, now! That's not a bad idea! The only questions being: A) how do we
pass the "word" to the Directors that this "new" technique exists; and B) who
will demonstrate it for them?
I know, we'll start passing the word to Fox, WB, and Paramount via e-mail
that, "...real shooters ALWAYS keep thier thumb behind the slide on
auto-pistols for faster follow-up shots and better control..." Then it'll be
easy for cops to find 'bangers after a drive-by--just look in the ER for
badly dressed mal- contents with only one thumb ;)
GDSstewart
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J. Eric Townsend
# Please accept my regrets at labeling the whole state as being composed of
# "gangstas" and Hollywood idiots. Let me think about that for a moment.....
# Barbra Boxer, Diane Feinstein, Tom Heyden, Willy Brown, Times/Warner, CBS,
# NBC, ABC, the folks that brought us LW4, the waiting period for BOLT ACTION
# RIFLES & SHOTGUNS...... no; of course....it's not the whole State; but what a
and Ronald Reagan, Pete Wilson, Ariana Huffington, Richard Nixon, and
'B1' Bob Dornan.
--
J. Eric Townsend jet at goonsquad.spies.com http://www.spies.com/jet
Socialist Gun Control: The Government buys guns for everyone.
Paul Connell
sells gun control to, well--ah, control the imaginary problem they've
created in the first place. How's them apples? I forget what the
economagicians call this kind of thing--vertical integration?
Henry Ford practiced it when he controlled production from raw materials to
finished product. So did Andrew Carnegie with steel. Except those guys
weren't dealing with allegory. They were dealing with real stuff--mostly.
Hollywood has nothing real to offer, so they make stuff up. Loud, flashy
stuff. It's become a habit--you know, like virtual masturbation. They did
it until not only until they went blind, but stupid as well.
pcon...@tiac.net (Paul Connell)