Markings on Lee-Enfield No.4 Mk 1*
Bryan Brown
Among the markings on the No. 4 Mk 1* rifle I have are the following on
the left side of the metal band holding the buttstock to the receiver
assembly:
(1) "1944" (with the 4 overstriking what appears to be a 3), the year of
manufacture, below which is
(2) "BR", below which is a 5-digit serial number.
So, what does the "BR" stand for? Birmingham something? I know this is
not an Ishapore firearm since "RFI" does not appear on the receiver (or
elsewhere), nor is it a U.S.-made piece since "U.S. property" (or
something similar) does not appear, either.
Two other questions:
(1) Can I use this rifle in qualifying for a DCM Garand?
(2) Does this rifle need to be checked for the cracks that have caused
some problems with other No. 4s?
Thanks
Bryan
--
*---------------------------------------------------------------
* Bryan Brown <*> bbr...@csc.com
* http://www.radix.net/~bbrown bbr...@radix.net
*---------------------------------------------------------------
drn...@utk.edu
Bryan Brown wrote:
#
# Among the markings on the No. 4 Mk 1* rifle I have are the following on
# the left side of the metal band holding the buttstock to the receiver
# assembly:
If it is truly a No4Mk1"*", then it wasn't made in Britain at all. The
Mk1* modification of the No.4 rifle was only produced at Long Branch in
Canada, or at Savage in the US. The Long Branch rifles are clearly
marked as such in this area, while the Savage rifles are marked with the
letter "S" (this "S" is composed of straight lines that intersect at
right angles, making it look rather "boxy"). The Savage rifles are also
marked "US property", since they were provided to Great Britain under
the auspices of the Lend-Lease Act. The "BR" marking was used by the
RSARF Sparkbrook (near Birmingham), but not later than 1906, according
to Skennerton, so the "BR" marking makes no sense, unless the BR is part
of the serial number. Fazakerly used letters at the beginning of their
serial numbers for the No4 (I assume the other British arsenals did as
well), but the No4Mk1* was not made there, only at the North American
plants. Could this be a Canadian or US manufactured rifle that
underwent am arsenal repair in England in 1944? Possible. More
information is needed to sort this question out. Go recheck the
markings carefully, and tell me more; I'll see what I can find out for
you.
Regards,
Norm
Bryan Brown
drn...@utk.edu wrote:
: If it is truly a No4Mk1"*", then it wasn't made in Britain at all. The
: Mk1* modification of the No.4 rifle was only produced at Long Branch in
: Canada, or at Savage in the US. The Long Branch rifles are clearly
: marked as such in this area, while the Savage rifles are marked with the
: letter "S" (this "S" is composed of straight lines that intersect at
: right angles, making it look rather "boxy"). The Savage rifles are also
: marked "US property", since they were provided to Great Britain under
: the auspices of the Lend-Lease Act. The "BR" marking was used by the
: RSARF Sparkbrook (near Birmingham), but not later than 1906, according
: to Skennerton, so the "BR" marking makes no sense, unless the BR is part
: of the serial number. Fazakerly used letters at the beginning of their
: serial numbers for the No4 (I assume the other British arsenals did as
: well), but the No4Mk1* was not made there, only at the North American
: plants. Could this be a Canadian or US manufactured rifle that
: underwent am arsenal repair in England in 1944? Possible. More
: information is needed to sort this question out. Go recheck the
: markings carefully, and tell me more; I'll see what I can find out for
: you.
There are no other markings on the band to which the buttstock is
attached. There is a small cartouche on the muzzle end of the left side
of the receiver, inside which is the letter C and, below the C, what
appears to be the number "15" or "45" (the first number is not clear). I
don't know if this is a proof mark or what. There are 3 small, indistinct
markings on the right side of the receiver, and I suspect that these may
be proof marks. I'll need to get some chalk powder and a magnifying glass
to make them out.
The left side of the receiver is clearly marked as a No. 4 Mk 1*. An
e-mail correspondent suggested that the manufacturer was originally Savage
and, when their plant closed down, the unfinished piece was shipped to
Long Branch and was finished there. This would be consistent with the
date on the band being originally 1943 and the final "3" being overstriked
with "4". Apparently the "BR" on the band may be one of the codes for
Long Branch (?). I don't have a reference from which to get this
information.
Could you give more information about the Skennerton reference? I can't
find any information about this source but am very interested.
drn...@utk.edu
Bryan Brown wrote:
# There is a small cartouche on the muzzle end of the left side
# of the receiver, inside which is the letter C and, below the C, what
# appears to be the number "15" or "45" (the first number is not clear).
This may represent a Canadian acceptance mark...I don't know.
the unfinished piece was shipped to
# Long Branch and was finished there. This would be consistent with the
# date on the band being originally 1943 and the final "3" being overstriked
# with "4". Apparently the "BR" on the band may be one of the codes for
# Long Branch (?). I don't have a reference from which to get this
# information.
My reference (The British Service Lee by Skennerton) doesn't show the BR
mark as being attributed to Long Branch...But this would certainly
explain the fact that it is a No4 MkI*....
# Could you give more information about the Skennerton reference? I can't
# find any information about this source but am very interested.
Skennerton's newest edition is called "The Lee- Enfield Story" and is
substantially revised and improved from his previous book, "The British
Service Lee". Guncraft Sports in Knoxville, TN stocks the book (I
bought it from them....no connection , just a customer.) Call them at
(423)966-4545....it runs between 50 and 60 bucks.
Regards,
Norm
# Thanks
#
# Bryan
#
# --
# *---------------------------------------------------------------
# * Bryan Brown <*> bbr...@csc.com
# * http://www.radix.net/~bbrown bbr...@radix.net
# *---------------------------------------------------------------
Gale Barrows
drn...@utk.edu wrote:
#Bryan Brown wrote:
## There is a small cartouche on the muzzle end of the left side
## of the receiver, inside which is the letter C and, below the C, what
## appears to be the number "15" or "45" (the first number is not clear).
#This may represent a Canadian acceptance mark...I don't know.
Might the letter be a poorly stamped "D"? Ths was a Canadian property
mark.
#the unfinished piece was shipped to
## Long Branch and was finished there. This would be consistent with the
## date on the band being originally 1943 and the final "3" being overstriked
## with "4". Apparently the "BR" on the band may be one of the codes for
## Long Branch (?). I don't have a reference from which to get this
## information.
Could the mark actualy be a "L" with a "B" being part of the "L" (the
Vertical line of the B and the bottom of the B is the horizontal part
of the L. ? The combined "L" and "B" was the mark of the Long Branch
arsenal. The combined "L" and"B" plus the R could concievable be for
the "L" of Long and the "B" and "R" of Long Branch. I think I have
seen that mark on one of my Long Branch rifles. I will have to remebr
to check.
#My reference (The British Service Lee by Skennerton) doesn't show the BR
#mark as being attributed to Long Branch...But this would certainly
#explain the fact that it is a No4 MkI*....
## Could you give more information about the Skennerton reference? I can't
## find any information about this source but am very interested.
#Skennerton's newest edition is called "The Lee- Enfield Story" and is
#substantially revised and improved from his previous book, "The British
#Service Lee". Guncraft Sports in Knoxville, TN stocks the book (I
#bought it from them....no connection , just a customer.) Call them at
#(423)966-4545....it runs between 50 and 60 bucks.
#Regards,
#Norm
#
## Thanks
##
## Bryan
##
## --
## *---------------------------------------------------------------
## * Bryan Brown <*> bbr...@csc.com
## * http://www.radix.net/~bbrown bbr...@radix.net
## *---------------------------------------------------------------
Bryan C. Brown
drn...@utk.edu wrote:
# My reference (The British Service Lee by Skennerton) doesn't show the BR
# mark as being attributed to Long Branch...But this would certainly
# explain the fact that it is a No4 MkI*....
As a Christmas present I got a copy of Skennerton's 3 small books on the
Lee-Enfields in the Small Arms Information Series. In the one for No. 4
Mk I it lists the codes for the various manufacturers, including M for
Maltby (which was apparently mainly an assembly plant, not making all the
parts themselves). Anyway, I don't recall if my original post mentioned
this <sigh>, but the serial number on the left side of the butt socket is
preceded by "M". Sooo, I figure this weapon was assembled at Maltby and
is thus really a No. 4 Mk I, not a Mk I*. Looking more closely at the
receiver, the "*" may just be a defect in the finish (?), but it seems too
much of a coincidence. Oh, well, at least I've learned some more.
# Skennerton's newest edition is called "The Lee- Enfield Story" and is
# substantially revised and improved from his previous book, "The British
# Service Lee". Guncraft Sports in Knoxville, TN stocks the book (I
# bought it from them....no connection , just a customer.) Call them at
# (423)966-4545....it runs between 50 and 60 bucks.
Thanks, their latest list on the web does list that book (the previous
list I saved to disk did not). I've dealt with them before, and have
always been a satisfied customer, too. I'll place the order today.
Thanks for the effort.
Bryan
--
*---------------------------------------------------------------
* Bryan Brown <*> bbr...@radix.net
* http://www.radix.net/~bbrown bbr...@csc.com
*---------------------------------------------------------------