.22 Magnum vs. .25 ACP
Rick Steverson
I had some friends suggest that I get a .22 Magnum for a CCW for my
wife. For lower recoil. This suggestion has since been rejected
after my wife tried a 9mm without a hitch but I was wondering about
the .22 Magnum. Looking up the .22M in the Winchester catalog
shows 1480 fps muzzle velocity, 195 ft. lbs. muzzle energy with a 6
1/2 inch barrel. The .25 ACP is listed as 815 fps muzzle velocity
and 66 ft. lbs. muzzle energy with a 2 inch barrel. Because of the
different barrel lenght the numbers can't be compared. Can anyone
give me a clue if the .22M's numbers are still better than the
.25ACP with a 2" barrel? In other words, would a .22 Magnum be a
better choice if one wanted such a small gun?
Thanks.
Mike Raley
Rick Steverson wrote:
#
# I had some friends suggest that I get a .22 Magnum for a CCW for my
# wife. For lower recoil. This suggestion has since been rejected
# after my wife tried a 9mm without a hitch but I was wondering about
# the .22 Magnum. Looking up the .22M in the Winchester catalog
# shows 1480 fps muzzle velocity, 195 ft. lbs. muzzle energy with a 6
# 1/2 inch barrel. The .25 ACP is listed as 815 fps muzzle velocity
# and 66 ft. lbs. muzzle energy with a 2 inch barrel. Because of the
# different barrel lenght the numbers can't be compared. Can anyone
# give me a clue if the .22M's numbers are still better than the
# .25ACP with a 2" barrel? In other words, would a .22 Magnum be a
# better choice if one wanted such a small gun?
#
# Thanks.
Almost certainly! While some people debate the subject, it's pretty
clear to me that even the .22 LR beats the .25 for "stopping power"
(if such a thing can be defined). However (and it's a big "however"),
rimfire cartridges aren't as reliable as centerfire cartridges. And
you can get exotic loads like MagSafe and Glaser in .25. I don't
recommend these frangibles though.
On the plus side, .22 LR is dirt cheap for practice. But neither .22 LR
or .25 ACP hollowpoints are very unlikely to expand from a 2" barrel.
The Magnum might. Maybe.
Find the North American Arms homepage (don't have the URL handy) and
you can see some chronograph results for different .22 LR and Magnum
loads from their tiny revolvers (1 1/8" and 1 5/8" barrels). Just don't
believe that absolutely incorrect claim about ".22 Magnum being
comparable to .38 special in energy". They are quoting some author
that didn't know how to calculate kinetic energy (or at least did it
incorrectly).
I would avoid all three cartridges if at all possible; none is very
effective.
Mike
--
Mike Raley, Author of _Hidden In Plain Sight: A Practical Guide to
Concealed Handgun Carry_
For details: http://www.mindspring.com/~brco/brweb.htm
Now accepting on-line orders through First Virtual!
--
Mike Raley, Author of _Hidden In Plain Sight: A Practical Guide to
Concealed Handgun Carry_
For details: http://www.mindspring.com/~brco/brweb.htm
Now accepting on-line orders through First Virtual!
Robert Christman
Rick Steverson wrote:
#
# I had some friends suggest that I get a .22 Magnum for a CCW for my
# wife. For lower recoil. This suggestion has since been rejected
# after my wife tried a 9mm without a hitch but I was wondering about
# the .22 Magnum. Looking up the .22M in the Winchester catalog
# shows 1480 fps muzzle velocity, 195 ft. lbs. muzzle energy with a 6
# 1/2 inch barrel. The .25 ACP is listed as 815 fps muzzle velocity
# and 66 ft. lbs. muzzle energy with a 2 inch barrel. Because of the
# different barrel lenght the numbers can't be compared. Can anyone
# give me a clue if the .22M's numbers are still better than the
# .25ACP with a 2" barrel? In other words, would a .22 Magnum be a
# better choice if one wanted such a small gun?
#
# Thanks.
the pistol itself (assuming a small autoloader) would be considerably
bigger. The .22Mag is a relatively long round and requires a fairly
heavy action (blowback type) which means the gun would be larger than
most .25's. Since the only reason for carrying either would be size,
the .25 would probably be a better choice. The 9mm is a much better
choice. I prefer the .45ACP myself.
Bob Christman NRA Life USN(Ret)
Bill Oertell
I read in an article awhile back that the .22 Mag exihibited similar
terminal ballistics as a .38 Spl.
Bill
Mike Raley
Bill Oertell wrote:
#
# I read in an article awhile back that the .22 Mag exihibited similar
# terminal ballistics as a .38 Spl.
# Bill
You heard wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
People continue to quote some article in G&A (I think) that erroneously
calculated the muzzle energy. It isn't true folks. Do the math
yourself, if you doubt me.
NAA had this quote on their web page. I don't know if it's
still there, and I would like to think it was simple oversight on their
part. I hope it wasn't someone with a science background who put in on
the page, 'cause it AIN'T SO!
Bill Oertell
# You heard wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
#
# People continue to quote some article in G&A (I think) that erroneously
# calculated the muzzle energy. It isn't true folks. Do the math
# yourself, if you doubt me.
Gawd, I hate it when someone tells me I didn't read something I did.
The article in question didn't calculate muzzle energy. It was
written by Ed Sinow (sp?), and said that both the .22 Mag and the .38
Spl made similar cavities in ballistic gelatin.
Bill
Nick Hull
In article <50djb6$c...@server.cntfl.com>, RStev...@beachlife.net (Rick
Steverson) wrote:
# I had some friends suggest that I get a .22 Magnum for a CCW for my
# wife. For lower recoil. This suggestion has since been rejected
# after my wife tried a 9mm without a hitch but I was wondering about
# the .22 Magnum. Looking up the .22M in the Winchester catalog
# shows 1480 fps muzzle velocity, 195 ft. lbs. muzzle energy with a 6
# 1/2 inch barrel. The .25 ACP is listed as 815 fps muzzle velocity
# and 66 ft. lbs. muzzle energy with a 2 inch barrel. Because of the
# different barrel lenght the numbers can't be compared. Can anyone
# give me a clue if the .22M's numbers are still better than the
# .25ACP with a 2" barrel? In other words, would a .22 Magnum be a
# better choice if one wanted such a small gun?
#
# Thanks.
For the 2nd shot, you might be deaf and blind from shooting a 22 mag indoors.
--
nick...@usit.net
Free men own guns-slaves don't
Robert Ferguson
# Ballisticly the .22Mag would definitely outclass the .25ACP, however,
# the pistol itself (assuming a small autoloader) would be considerably
# bigger. The .22Mag is a relatively long round and requires a fairly
# heavy action (blowback type) which means the gun would be larger than
# most .25's. Since the only reason for carrying either would be size,
# the .25 would probably be a better choice. The 9mm is a much better
# choice. I prefer the .45ACP myself.
#
# Bob Christman NRA Life USN(Ret)
The beretta 21A comes in either 22 or 25. It's a nice pistol. I don't
know the size of the Beretta Tomcat, maybe it's the same size as the
21A. the 21A can be easily carried in a suit jacket pocket.
Bob Ferguson
Rosco Benson
It is not as simple as choosing which cartridge is
"best"....frankly, they're both feeble. If you choose
the .22 magnum, you'll choose it in either a clumsy,
slow "mini-revolver" or in a S&W J-frame sized
revolver. The mini-revolver is a watch-fob novelty.
A "J" can be had in .38spl. Now, the venerable
38spl might not be a "powerhouse", but it's
WAY ahead of any .22 rimfire. One other option
would be an O/U derringer, of the Remington or
High Standard pattern. All I can say about these
are, if I was going into a fight, I'd rather have a
4-cell Maglite.
If you choose the .25ACP cartridge, you can acquire
a Beretta 950 "Jetfire"...a tiny, 8-shot, highly reliable
little autoloader...or the slightly bigger, double-action
Beretta 21.
The .22 magnum must have some slight utility afield...
in a rifle or a full-sized revolver...because enough of
them sell to keep the caliber alive, but it has no utility
in defensive use (unless you can acquire nothing better).
Rosco S. Benson
NCR Customer Information Services
My opinions...not my employer's
Robert Christman
Robert Ferguson wrote:
#
# # Ballisticly the .22Mag would definitely outclass the .25ACP, however,
#
# The beretta 21A comes in either 22 or 25. It's a nice pistol. I don't
# know the size of the Beretta Tomcat, maybe it's the same size as the
# 21A. the 21A can be easily carried in a suit jacket pocket.
#
# Bob Ferguson
The Beretta 21A comes in .22LR, considerably different than the .22 Mag
the gentleman asked about.
Bob Christman NRA Life USN (Ret)
John O. Stambaugh
I would no want to bet on it, but the Ruger Bearcat in .22 Mag should
produce higher energy and better shot placement. I will go way out on this
limb and say it could even be more reliable. Been waiting for a
stainless one for what seems like forever.
John O. Stambaugh <j...@gate.net>
Lantana, Florida USA
gme...@trinity.edu
# Steverson) wrote:
# # I had some friends suggest that I get a .22 Magnum for a CCW
I don't think there are any really good 22 mag CCW guns out there.
There are the NAA 22 mags for deep cover or when their small size
make them the only possiblility.
The AMT semi-auto is as big as much better choices.
There is the special run of the SW 651 with a 2" barrel but it is
the same size and weight as a 640 in 38/357.
There is the rumored new all alloy j - frame but as it supposedly has
a hammer, it's bad as a pocket pistol and again same size as a 442 or 642.
There are little derringers (Davis) but again these are last resort.
So what guns are realistic for CCW with a 22 mag - independent of their
fireball like qualities? My 22 mag NAA is quite impressive for a tiny gun.
So what if it says MAGNUM?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
This article was posted to Usenet via the Posting Service at Deja News:
http://www.dejanews.com/ [Search, Post, and Read Usenet News!]
Chukkster
No doubt about it, the 22 magnum is far superior to the 25. I have a High =
Standard 22 magnum derringer. It has a 3 1/2 inch barrel with a solid =
breech. This gun is very lethal. If you can find one being that High Standa=
rd =
went under some years ago. They still make wallet holsters for it. For =
extreme conceal at close range it=B9s hard to beat.
Chuck
-- =
<"mailto:chuk...@earthlink.net">
robbin decker
Robert Ferguson <ferg...@nyct.net> wrote:
## Ballisticly the .22Mag would definitely outclass the .25ACP, however,
## the pistol itself (assuming a small autoloader) would be considerably
## bigger. The .22Mag is a relatively long round and requires a fairly
## heavy action (blowback type) which means the gun would be larger than
## most .25's. Since the only reason for carrying either would be size,
## the .25 would probably be a better choice. The 9mm is a much better
## choice. I prefer the .45ACP myself.
##
## Bob Christman NRA Life USN(Ret)
#The beretta 21A comes in either 22 or 25. It's a nice pistol. I don't
#know the size of the Beretta Tomcat, maybe it's the same size as the
#21A. the 21A can be easily carried in a suit jacket pocket.
#Bob Ferguson
The Berettas, to my knowledge, are 22 lr, not Mag (WMR). We have an
old HiStd Sentinal MkIV DA revolver in .22 mag, 9shots, supposedly a
22 mag is considered to be able to penetrate some body armor because
of it's diameter/velocity stats, Smith made a 22 mag revolver, the 650
or 651, that was small enough for carry.
"Better 9 good hits in the boiler room with a .22 than a near miss
with a .44 mag."
Georgie Stanford
Rosco Benson (rosco....@DaytonOH.NCR.COM) wrote:
:
: It is not as simple as choosing which cartridge is
Wait a second! I can put 8 shots from a Beretta Mod-21A .22 long rifle
into a target the size of a teacup at 25 feet in the time it would
take you to pick up your batteries to reload your Maglight! It's not how
big your gun but where you put the bullets...now to get that thug to hold
up that target in front of his face!
Georgie
Stephen Swartz
In article <51715o$4...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, maf0...@maf.mobile.al.us (Georgie Stanford) says:
#
#Rosco Benson (rosco....@DaytonOH.NCR.COM) wrote:
#:
#: It is not as simple as choosing which cartridge is
#: "best"....frankly, they're both feeble. If you choose
**** SNIPPAGE ****
#Wait a second! I can put 8 shots from a Beretta Mod-21A .22 long rifle
#into a target the size of a teacup at 25 feet in the time it would
#take you to pick up your batteries to reload your Maglight! It's not how
#big your gun but where you put the bullets...now to get that thug to hold
#up that target in front of his face!
#
#Georgie
#
As previously mentioned, the .2x series bullets are perfectly
acceptable rounds to use against unarmed, unsuspecting opponents.
Indeed, the .22 short has been used effectively as an assassination round.
However, if your opponent is armed with a .45 and can place 1 shot in a
target the size of a dinnerplate . . .
You're SOL.
(P.S. it has been claimed that shooting an armed opponenent in a life or
death situation is, well, somewhat different from "speed shooting" at
a target at your local range. Maybe if you could do this to a target
that aggressively bobs, weaves, or attacks . . . )
***********************************************************************
* =8^) * Abolish the welfare state AND the police state! *
* Steve * Which is worse: a Libertarian on food stamps; or *
* Swartz * a Socialist with a bank account? *
* * Support the ENTIRE Bill of Rights! Are you ok with *
* NRA Life * a well-armed group of religious-militia members *
* AFA Life * getting together to publish a newspaper calling for *
* * a return of power to the states? If not, you don't!*
***********************************************************************
Jerry Houston
Stephen Swartz <swar...@pilot.msu.edu> wrote in article
<5194k9$d...@msunews.cl.msu.edu>...
<snip>
|
| Indeed, the .22 short has been used effectively as an assassination
round.
It's important to remember that suitability of a round for assassinations
has nothing to do with its suitability for self defense, which was the
topic of this thread.
An assassin's target is usually unaware of the danger, possibly unarmed,
and certainly not alert to the impending danger. If the shot takes out the
target immediately, or an hour later, the job has been successfully
accomplished. The assassin can choose his best time to shoot, when the
odds are all in his favor, or pass up the opportunity at the last moment
and try again later.
Someone firing in self defense has probably already been attacked, is up
against an armed opponent, and the opponent may even have fired his first
shot already. If the victim is lucky enough to fire at all, his first
round or two must immediately stop the fight, or the attacker will still
win.
That's why so many of us advocate using the largest and most effective
caliber that you can (1) shoot well and (2) have with you when needed.
Even by the greatest stretch of the imagination, .22 short simply isn't
suitable for self defense, even if it IS the choice of assassins the world
over.
Peter H. Proctor
In article <5194k9$d...@msunews.cl.msu.edu> swar...@pilot.msu.edu (Stephen Swartz) writes:
#From: swar...@pilot.msu.edu (Stephen Swartz)
#Subject: Re: .22 Magnum vs. .25 ACP
#Date: 12 Sep 1996 10:36:08 -0400
#In article <51715o$4...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, maf0...@maf.mobile.al.us (Georgie
#Stanford) says:
##
##Rosco Benson (rosco....@DaytonOH.NCR.COM) wrote:
##:
##: It is not as simple as choosing which cartridge is
##: "best"....frankly, they're both feeble. If you choose
#**** SNIPPAGE ****
##Wait a second! I can put 8 shots from a Beretta Mod-21A .22 long rifle
##into a target the size of a teacup at 25 feet in the time it would
##take you to pick up your batteries to reload your Maglight! It's not how
##big your gun but where you put the bullets...now to get that thug to hold
##up that target in front of his face!
##
##Georgie
##
#As previously mentioned, the .2x series bullets are perfectly
#acceptable rounds to use against unarmed, unsuspecting opponents.
#Indeed, the .22 short has been used effectively as an assassination round.
#However, if your opponent is armed with a .45 and can place 1 shot in a
#target the size of a dinnerplate . . .
#You're SOL.
As with many things in this world, the bigger your bullet the better.
Problem is ( leastwise down here in Texas ) often the only thing you can
carry is some mouse caliber. Your hopes are that nobody wants to get
shot, even with a mouse gun, and that you might get lucky.
I suspect that some of the poor results from mouse calibers are secondary
to the difficulty of hitting anything with such a small gun without
practice--- This combined with the inexperience of a lot of mouse gun
wielders.
PHP
Carl Porter
Peter H. Proctor wrote:
#
# In article <5194k9$d...@msunews.cl.msu.edu> swar...@pilot.msu.edu (Stephen Swartz) writes:
# #From: swar...@pilot.msu.edu (Stephen Swartz)
# #Subject: Re: .22 Magnum vs. .25 ACP
# #Date: 12 Sep 1996 10:36:08 -0400
#
# #In article <51715o$4...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, maf0...@maf.mobile.al.us (Georgie
# #Stanford) says:
# ##
# ##Rosco Benson (rosco....@DaytonOH.NCR.COM) wrote:
# ##:
# ##: It is not as simple as choosing which cartridge is
# ##: "best"....frankly, they're both feeble. If you choose
#
# #**** SNIPPAGE ****
#
# ##Wait a second! I can put 8 shots from a Beretta Mod-21A .22 long rifle
# ##into a target the size of a teacup at 25 feet in the time it would
# ##take you to pick up your batteries to reload your Maglight! It's not how
# ##big your gun but where you put the bullets...now to get that thug to hold
# ##up that target in front of his face!
# ##
# ##Georgie
# ##
#
# #As previously mentioned, the .2x series bullets are perfectly
# #acceptable rounds to use against unarmed, unsuspecting opponents.
#
# #Indeed, the .22 short has been used effectively as an assassination round.
#
# #However, if your opponent is armed with a .45 and can place 1 shot in a
# #target the size of a dinnerplate . . .
#
# #You're SOL.
#
# As with many things in this world, the bigger your bullet the better.
# Problem is ( leastwise down here in Texas ) often the only thing you can
# carry is some mouse caliber. Your hopes are that nobody wants to get
# shot, even with a mouse gun, and that you might get lucky.
#
# I suspect that some of the poor results from mouse calibers are secondary
# to the difficulty of hitting anything with such a small gun without
# practice--- This combined with the inexperience of a lot of mouse gun
# wielders.
#
# PHP
The nice thing about "mouse" calibers is you can afford to practice a lot. You
can buy 1000 rounds of .22LR for about the same price as 20 .45 ACP cartridges. The
other nice thing about "mouse" guns is you can carry a lot more ammo in the same pocket.
I had real good luck with my Colt New Frontier .22mag putting shots into the dinner
plate at 100 yards. I think I can probably empty it into the plate faster and more
accurately the my 9mm Beretta due to more pratice and a longer barrel. Bigger isn't
always better, you use what YOU can hit (and hit often) with be it .22 or .50 cal.
Carl
Robin
The September GUNS magazine had a pretty writeup on the .22 vs .25. They
decided it was pretty much a toss up with the tie breaker going to cost
of ammo.
Robin
F. Wirtz
kb2...@mail.frontiernet.net (robbin decker) wrote:
#"Better 9 good hits in the boiler room with a .22 than a near miss
#with a .44 mag."
#
#
#
Better a near miss with a .44 than a near miss with a .22.
Regards,
Frank